Raid Elitism Happening In Fractals — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raid Elitism Happening In Fractals

Raid Elitism has been slowly but surely seeping into fractals for quite some time now. Each day, there are more and more LFGs posted with descriptions such as: "Need Chrono - Need Heal Druid". These LFGs are in attempts to form 5 man raid meta teams, for fractals. I assume this is happening because of these reasons:

  • Players can't or don't want to afford multiple setups on most characters. For the purpose of saving resources, they gear for raids because it is the most difficult content.
  • Raid builds are designed to support each other and all DPS oriented raid builds require a healing druid. They have to bring in that healing druid.
  • Since the raid DPS and heal druid are present, players figure they may as well LFG for the chrono.

My question is: Why are so many players only running raid builds nowadays? Well it may be due to these reasons:

  • Players just copy/paste whatever they see on the current meta-build websites they visit.
  • Players learn only that one build that they copy/paste from a meta-build website.
  • Players believe that one build is the end all be all and any deviation from that listed build would mean they are a bad player..
  • Players fail to understand that raid builds are designed for 10 man teams vs. raid AI single target bosses and that fractal AI and mobs function completely differently.

If a group was running 99 and 100 CMs, I get it. It's nice to use the rehearsed raid meta and it does work well in CMs. But for general T4 daily completion, the expectation of pulling raid meta team comps is beginning to cause very unnecessary problems:

  • People being way too picky while forming teams before actually starting the fractal. T4s are something that can be completed in about 30 minutes on average if people who know what they are doing just group up and go do it. There is no reason to tag an extra 10 -20 minute wait time to form a raid meta team.
  • Groups full of raid DPSers who fail to pull a heal druid. They go in and are often unable to survive the random nature of fractal AI. It seems they fail to understand that having ultra high DPS means nothing if you can't stay alive long enough to use it. Frequently being in downstate is also a loss in DPS for the players who have to stop DPSing and go revive the downed player.
  • Overly elitist attitude for a casual game mode that simply does not require raid elitism within a party to succeed. They'll kick & boot players because their ARCDPS tells them that a particular player isn't meeting raid standard DPS. Sometimes they kick & boot a player simply because his build was a deviant of a meta, regardless of the player's actual performance. The elitist attitude leads them to believe they are "making the party stronger" by booting out unidentified build structures. But ironically enough, the players they will rag on or boot from the party are often older fractal players who have adapted custom builds that might sacrifice 15% to 20% top DPS for the ability to carry bad groups in fractals. The kind of builds that are capable of solo'ing CM MAMA or finishing CM Ensolyss cap phase by itself if it has to, avoiding a boss fight reset and saving everyone time.

I wanted to write this thread because of something I watched happen, earlier today. There was this LFG for daily recommended fractals so I joined. The guy who made this LFG apparently felt he needed a raid heal druid and all raid metas to run his daily recommended fractals. There was 1 Berserker in the party who was using Heal Signet and the guy who created the LFG was throwing a fit over it. He tried to vote kick the Berserker but no one seconded the vote because well... it's just recommended and we really just wanted to get it done. The guy who created the LFG ended up leaving the party because the Berserker was "throwing off the group meta". We picked up a random 5th and completed the recommended fractals in a short amount of time. When I checked the LFG again for a T4 group to run with, that same guy who left our party was still posted in the LFG looking for an ultra meta group to run his daily recommended fractals with. Needless to say, that guy was being ridiculous. But what is important to point out is how his overly elitist attitude was actually making him waste his own time.

Fractals are not raids.
Stop being raid elitists in fractals.
~ There you have it. Someone needed to say it.

The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
-> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest#1

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Comments

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If they want to waste time let them, I post t4 or t4 f+p if i want it abit quicker and get my groups filled up quick.
    What I dont like tho is guilds brining in people with low ar too leech a kill without saying anything to the group, happen to me today in solid ocean tried to kick a guy after him trying to get into boss area dying instantly to agony 5 times.

    Ended up getting kicked myself and just restarting.

  • Despond.2174Despond.2174 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2018

    @Cragga the Eighty Third.6015 said:
    Most of the PUG fractals I've joined are laid-back and fun. (But I mainly play Tier 1 or guild runs BECAUSE I want laid-back and fun.)

    The worst fractal experience I've ever had (again, this was Tier 1, bear that in mind) started when the 'leader' informed us that he was running a DPS meter and didn't want any of us slacking off spamming the '1' key. Halfway through the event, he told another member of the squad that his build was squishy. That player took exception to the remark, and we ended up nearly getting slaughtered by the boss while the 'leader' and squishy dude were too busy screaming insults at each other in the chat to fight.

    I'm perfectly happy if raid-minded people want to make up LFG groups based on metas. LFGs with specific demands let me know that those are not the kind of group I want to play in, and I am grateful for the warning signs.

    But if you play more fractals you will learn that 90% of the time it's friendly and smooth. People do exaggerate stories and make it look like some toxic pool of players, it is quite the opposite.

    For 100CM etc yeah, I can understand of course why people want the ultimate set-up and experience. Anyone can do one with whatever requirements, but who are we to tell people to not want to pursue the most efficient means? Just ignore them and make whatever you want.

    I would say the roughest fractal bracket is T3 because there are still inexperienced players in both knowledge of the fractal or playing their character. Now you can choose T1 and just coast that's fine and awesome as well. That's why there's 4 tiers, a sense of progression and pursuit of better playing while also having an easier mode for those who may choose not to want to do that.

    When I read the forums about T4 pugs, I thought to myself "wow, it must get pretty bad, I am not looking forward to this" and of course it was the opposite. People all have food+pots without being asked, know the tactics, and many groups since they have good DPS are relaxed about metas chrono/druid. I run druid just because overall it smooths the experience and even when I've joined a group already with a druid, I was expecting: "OMG not 2 druids! Go something else!" and ofc I never received that. I can swap to SB but most times they don't care because everyone is on point. But yeah, if there's a listing asking for a chrono or druid, that's fine, normal T4 dailies as long as you're playing something that's WAY off optimal, then groups don't have a problem.

    For every not-so nice group there are 20 that are relaxed, skilled and normal. I pugged all the way to T4 and I am doing T4 dailies--granted it's not CM etc but read my second paragraph--and it's 95% smooth and friendly. Even my guild doesn't care what someone brings, I mean you have videos of people soloing T4 and someone who plays their DPS properly can easily output more than 3-5 players who can't.

    I suggest if you find players that are more to your liking, add them so you can easily form better groups. Ignore actual "elitists" and rude players I agree but don't confuse elitism with a bunch of players just wanting to improve and do something efficiently.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just make ur own group..

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  • Agree, just make your own group. There will always be players with fixed mind set, be it meta or not of how things work (extremist/ fanatics for example). Too quick and unfair to blame it on raids, could be from other games with a dedicated healer role but my point is such people are out there ; even before Raid was implemented.

  • This is nothing new. Fractal Metas and elitism have been around since before raids. It is ridiculous to think that this is something new.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU1DddeeFVM / www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN1eJ3R_hTc
    Fractal elitism is not a problem, there are not enough so-called 'elitists' in lfg. For t4 dailies, raid comp just makes them easier, but is not necessary. For harder/longer daily fractal runs, "CMs + Dailies + Recs: LF Chrono/Druid/BS/1power dps" makes sense because with bad comp (BannerSlut/Warrior Healer/Condi Berserker/Power Berserker/Mantra Mesmer) the fractals will take too long. Because chrono/druid/bs/2dps is the most efficient setup, people who want to quickly clear fractals will use it. There is a significant difference in time completion between parties that follow a raid comp and parties that don't. Doing fractals at reset, all parties will fill very fast, no matter the requirements posted. If it does take long for a party to fill, farm winterberries.
    Lastly, raid meta does not hurt fractal meta. Raid meta comp requires the players to play better for a quicker clear.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2018

    The player base in general has been clearing fractals with ease for years, the rest is easy to work out. Raider are addicted to speed runs because its 'efficient' but in reality its how they play raids because you need progress in a night. They are transposing from a raiding scenario to fractals because that's the only way they know how to play, in fact many raiders cant even comprehend pleasure from content for content sake, its all about the (efficiently gained) reward.

    Put it this way, imaging playing an RPG board game with a group of friends at home - efficiency is not where the pleasure comes from, and yet online with strangers suddenly it is..

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • A healer and a chrono makes T4 fractals easier. That's all there is to it. I've done T4s with 5 DPS specs that have gone fairly smooth, but more often than not, that isn't the case. I'm not a raider, but I always try to land a group that has at least a healer (druid/tempest/renegade {though I've never encountered a healing renegade}) A good healer can carry some pretty bad groups.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To be fair ... people run the builds others tell them to because there is no good way to test if your own concocted builds are any good or work how you think they would. I mean, you COULD blow hundreds of gold on testing prefixes and different weapons ... or you could minimize your cost and get some guarantee of a highly functioning build right off the bat.

    The bottom line is that people don't know and/or don't care to fail, so they assume taking established builds, even if they are overtuned for the content, will close the gap to being successful. Besides, lots of people who run instanced content are used to this approach anyways; it was born out of PUGs from dungeons over 4 years ago.

    The answer here: build your own groups if you have requirements for what you do and don't want to do in them.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Rennie.6750Rennie.6750 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2018

    I do my dailies that way. I may skip the chrono because it's rarely a game changer but that's about it. Overall, support makes dailies easier and there are less wipes. I'm fine with waiting 5 minutes for the party to fill up.

    If you're frustrated because it's not asking for your class, play a heal druid or revenant, you'll have plenty of teams to chose from. And if you don't want to play something else, well that's on you so wait for your turn in the line.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2018

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Fractals are not raids.
    Stop being raid elitists in fractals.
    ~ There you have it. Someone needed to say it.

    Except it isn't true, and everyone says it.
    1) This need x happens since ever. It's how it works in every game. There has always been a Dungeon meta, a Fractal meta, a pvp meta, a WvW meta, actually the most recent meta was RAIDS, and they just carried out what was happening in Fractals and Dungeons.
    2) Druid+Chrono comps allow for a way more relaxed and forgiving run. I stopped playing DH, my brother stopped playing Warrior, so we can play Chrono and Druid.
    3) What do you care what other people want to run with? If i want to make a full necro party what's it with you? If what they ask doesn't fit your preference, it's easy don't join!
    4) If it bothers you so much, make your own party, get a guild, find some like minded friends and people, trust me, there's a lot of anti-elitists and then fail (or not) as many fractals as you want.
    5) As for your example, idiots are everywhere! Don't generalize. Most people will not ask for anything specific. I don't ask for anything specific. Only that you play well.
    But yeah, just yesterday, there was this Mirage on my group and a Reaper joined us, and the guy went "huh Reaper "dps"". I just said to my brother via Discord, "if this guy slips and the Reaper ever outdpses him we kick him out"! In the end the group ran well, we finished everything quickly, and although the Reaper did outdps the Mirage a couple times, everyone finished everything, because despite that initial quip, the guy behaved, and no one snagged the fractal.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    My question is: Why are so many players only running raid builds nowadays? Well it may be due to these reasons:

    If a group was running 99 and 100 CMs, I get it. It's nice to use the rehearsed raid meta and it does work well in CMs.

    I think you answered your own question. The Meta works well, so people will use it.

    Also, if you are going to put in the effort to make a build for T4 fractals, you might as well make that build raid viable, as that saves time and resources if you want to raid.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2018

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    Except it isn't true, and everyone says it.
    1) This need x happens since ever. It's how it works in every game. There has always been a Dungeon meta, a Fractal meta, a pvp meta, a WvW meta, actually the most recent meta was RAIDS, and they just carried out what was happening in Fractals and Dungeons.
    ...
    3) What do you care what other people want to run with? If i want to make a full necro party what's it with you? If what they ask doesn't fit your preference, it's easy don't join!
    ...
    5) As for your example, idiots are everywhere! Don't generalize. Most people will not ask for anything specific. I don't ask for anything specific. Only that you play well.
    But yeah, just yesterday, there was this Mirage on my group and a Reaper joined us, and the guy went "huh Reaper "dps"". I just said to my brother via Discord, "if this guy slips and the Reaper ever outdpses him we kick him out"! In the end the group ran well, we finished everything quickly, and although the Reaper did outdps the Mirage a couple times, everyone finished everything, because despite that initial quip, the guy behaved, and no one snagged the fractal.

    Pretty much there's to say and :lol: for the mirage and necro run lol.
    Back when there's only dungeons in GW2 : zerkers, stacked and lvl80s only even if its for a lvl30 dungeon run or be kicked. There is elitism players everywhere regardless of game, content etc. Just a fractal elitism scenario in this case.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2018

    I don't see a problem if you make a group yourself. It really shouldn't bother you how other ppl advertise for group. In other mmo... the game detect and gear check for players that activate LFG and it auto find players that fit the category.

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  • Meh. Don't like don't join. I too avoid LFG ads with a super intense list of requirements; it usually indicates a leader who is trying to cover for their own incompetence by being uptight and bossy. Even if they are competent, uptight and bossy is no fun to run dailies with.

    "Food+pots" is the sweet spot for me; that lets in only those who have enough respect for everyone else's time to carry food, and enough experience/competence to have pots on hand one way or another.

    I do also sometimes run ArcDPS, although I'm careful not to snark about people's scores; I'm just curious. It's also useful for identifying people running healing builds without telling anyone, which happens more than you might think. I'm all for diverse builds, BUT there should only be 1 healer per team; more is slowing down the group.

  • "Food+pots" is the sweet spot for me; that lets in only those who have enough respect for everyone else's time to carry food, and enough experience/competence to have pots on hand one way or another.

    I like this idea. It's a good proxy for finding the sort of people that you'll have fun with. Might not work for everyone, but that's okay: you just need something that works for you.

    During the heyday of dungeon elitism, a couple of people used to advertise with things like:

    • List your favorite color when you join or
    • What is 7x6? answer when you join

    In both cases, they didn't care about the answer; they were just looking for people who actually read the party request. Maybe the person was good, maybe not; but they knew that the person would read chat and communicate when confused. And for many folks (including myself), that's more than enough, at least for dungeons & fractals.

    "With great power comes not-so-great utility bills."

  • Neutra.6857Neutra.6857 Member ✭✭✭

    Like others have said there has always been Meta builds and selected party comps. Before HOT it was pretty common to see things like no ranger, and with good reasons (and I main a ranger and have since I started playing).

  • Bugabuga.9721Bugabuga.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    For cases where "new" raid-like fractals (Twilight Oasis) are the dailies it's, basically, by design. They are meant to be for more organized groups and yes, bleed over from fractals into "need chrono and healer", so we get that. Random group can still do it, but requires more skilled players, who probably would rather have it done quickly than suffer through multiple wipes.

    Easiest way is to just try and avoid particularly demanding groups and stick to Food/pots. In off hours any group LFGs are scarce these days so, might make sense to do a healing druid just for fractals and thus always be wanted.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rhiannon.1726 said:
    Be happy, in the past we had 4 ele, 1 warrior meta, now we have 1 druid, 1 chrono, 3 dps meta.

    If you don't mind your group composition, just open the lfg and write "t4 daily". It will fill up fast.

    There was always a meta and like in the past you can choose to ignore it.

    And before that we had 1 mesmer 4 warrior cof p1 farming =)

  • Faaris.8013Faaris.8013 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    They are transposing from a raiding scenario to fractals because that's the only way they know how to play, in fact many raiders cant even comprehend pleasure from content for content sake, its all about the (efficiently gained) reward.

    Ok, I have to respond to this because it's not clear to me what kind of content you mean. Here's how I understand it: Efficient groups play in a way that they don't have to deal with specific content. We skip trash mobs, we don't use fans at Old Tom, we don't let the Ice Elemental extinguish the camp fires, we don't let bosses get enraged, we don't use cooling rods for the heat room, we don't need 4 players to activate several consoles. Is that the kind of content you expect people to gain pleasure from? Would it offend you if a chrono shields the Ice Elemental and the camp fires stay lid? Or if I don't put any cooling rods into the consoles before I turn off the heat room?

    Even at open world events like Triple Trouble, people block eggs so we can skip the content and don't have to deal with them. Is that the kind of stuff you get pleasure from and expect us to feel the same way?

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @Tarasicodissa.7084 said:
    I've no idea why we're even discussing this anymore...

    Because Bad players whine if they can't find a party, and also realize that if they start a new one it will probably be a failure becuase elitists will be playing with other elitits, which leaves only Bad players teamed up with Bad players.

    Every Bad player will bring his class with its own equip, build and consumables, because they want to play the way the want, then they will end up failing fractals and raid and at last they will put the blame on someone else.

    But the guilt is both their, because they didn't manage to learn the game in a proper way, and ANET's because they pushed towards a casual direction, feedind Bad players to a new level.

    TIL play the way I want/like = I am bad player

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2018

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @Tarasicodissa.7084 said:
    I've no idea why we're even discussing this anymore...

    Because Bad players whine if they can't find a party, and also realize that if they start a new one it will probably be a failure becuase elitists will be playing with other elitits, which leaves only Bad players teamed up with Bad players.

    Every Bad player will bring his class with its own equip, build and consumables, because they want to play the way the want, then they will end up failing fractals and raid and at last they will put the blame on someone else.

    But the guilt is both their, because they didn't manage to learn the game in a proper way, and ANET's because they pushed towards a casual direction, feedind Bad players to a new level.

    TIL play the way I want/like = I am bad player

    Not necessarily.
    However, if you start to opening threads and complaining because elitists play with other elitists and you can't achieve nothing because of them, you will simply show that you are a bad player.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @Tarasicodissa.7084 said:
    I've no idea why we're even discussing this anymore...

    Because Bad players whine if they can't find a party, and also realize that if they start a new one it will probably be a failure becuase elitists will be playing with other elitits, which leaves only Bad players teamed up with Bad players.

    Every Bad player will bring his class with its own equip, build and consumables, because they want to play the way the want, then they will end up failing fractals and raid and at last they will put the blame on someone else.

    But the guilt is both their, because they didn't manage to learn the game in a proper way, and ANET's because they pushed towards a casual direction, feedind Bad players to a new level.

    TIL play the way I want/like = I am bad player

    Not necessarily.
    However, if you start to opening threads and complaining because elitists play with other elitists and you can't achieve nothing because of them, you will simply show that you are a bad player.

    Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

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