Raid Elitism Happening In Fractals - Page 11 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raid Elitism Happening In Fractals

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  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Bakeneko.5826 said:
    Raid comps let bad players do good in fractals, there is no more old "you fail, you die", meta made it "You fail, druid will outheal the damage in no time". Time and time again I join n+ KP runs and people fail Oasis, which is pure pre rework fractal experience - you get hit a few times, you die, because they expect druid to just outheal the damage. Social Awkwardness can be ignored by druid, because how much healing he can dish out. Fractals need harsher Agony punishment do stop druids just out healing high hitting attacks in 2 seconds and letting players ignore SA

    So much wrong stuff in your post, sigh.

    • You can't outheal social awkwardness and you cannot ignore it. Try standing inside each other and you'll wipe.
    • I don't believe you about your joining of KP runs and a lot of failure on Oasis. The most experienced groups are using around 100 KP and they barely fail. Maybe they wipe from time to time but that's not the general outcome.
    • The real meta comps breeze through CMs + T4 and it's most likely that you have no clue about the skill level and speed those groups have. Sometimes I run t4 fractals - not cms - on my twink account - non-meta and meta groups. Usually both are terrible compared to the high KP groups I join on a daily basis on my main acc.

    Yeh lol SA can be painful.
    The group support role needs to be more alert and manage agony stack lol there was one Maitrin t4 a while back and SA was mislock. A war in the group kept typing to me - druid stack with group to heal (&we werent even suffer all HP and might were full lol) /sigh

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
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  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2018

    @Zalavaaris.5329 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    I wonder what the quick "oneshot" was. This story smells fishy.

    20ish minutes maybe slightly more

    Was there another support present & made them think your friend's FB is a dmg dealer? It is weird for them to stay for the entire run and waited to express discontent after it ended (100cm ain't a short fractal).

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I recommend u guys to turn DPs meter off in fractal and enjoy the run lol 😂😂
    You see fractal daily reset daily.. if everyday you have to get angry with the run then you better don't do it.. bad for health :p turn that dps meter off if you can't prevent urself from nosing how other play lol .. Try some meditation... Find ur inner peace.. amen

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
    Envoy's Herald, EAoA, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.

  • Zalavaaris.5329Zalavaaris.5329 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eramonster.2718 said:

    @Zalavaaris.5329 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    I wonder what the quick "oneshot" was. This story smells fishy.

    20ish minutes maybe slightly more

    Was there another support present & made them think your friend's FB is a dmg dealer? It is weird for them to stay for the entire run and waited to express discontent after it ended (100cm ain't a short fractal).

    Nope, so what happened is we had a chrono for the entire run and their internet went out right before arkk (they were another friend of ours). So we filled their spot with another chrono who was the one complaining about a quick arkk kill. We explained that we one shot the fractal and they didn't really give a kitten. We didnt do it the way they wanted us to and flamed for it. There isnt any reasonable explanation for their bevahior other than being an unacceptable child that wasnt raised properly.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zalavaaris.5329 said:

    @Eramonster.2718 said:

    @Zalavaaris.5329 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    I wonder what the quick "oneshot" was. This story smells fishy.

    20ish minutes maybe slightly more

    Was there another support present & made them think your friend's FB is a dmg dealer? It is weird for them to stay for the entire run and waited to express discontent after it ended (100cm ain't a short fractal).

    Nope, so what happened is we had a chrono for the entire run and their internet went out right before arkk (they were another friend of ours). So we filled their spot with another chrono who was the one complaining about a quick arkk kill. We explained that we one shot the fractal and they didn't really give a kitten. We didnt do it the way they wanted us to and flamed for it. There isnt any reasonable explanation for their bevahior other than being an unacceptable child that wasnt raised properly.

    Sound like dat chrono pug had a bad day 🤣🤣 forgive him lol

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
    Envoy's Herald, EAoA, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.

  • Jumpin Lumpix.6108Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2018

    I don't know why they don't tone raids down. This would deter elitism which seeps into other game modes. Gw2 is a casual mmo, it should remain that way. Most people who play gw2 are from mainstream mmos and play this game specifically because it is more casual.

  • SunTzu.4513SunTzu.4513 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't know why they don't tone raids down. This would deter elitism which seeps into other game modes. Gw2 is a casual mmo, it should remain that way. Most people who play gw2 are from mainstream mmos and play this game specifically because it is more casual.

    This wouldn't change anything. Even if raids or fractals would be tuned down, most of the players will always ask for the best comp to do the content in pugs. That's the nature of the beast. Look at WoW. Different difficulty levels for raids and inis and the forums is full of complains about ''elitisim'' in terms of way to high conditions to join or be accepted in pugs even for the lowest difficult level. Guilds or premate groups are the best thing to avoid this. In my guild we take everyone into every type of content except raids. We do fractal runs with 3 bearbows and 2 necros.

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    I don't know why they don't tone raids down. This would deter elitism which seeps into other game modes. Gw2 is a casual mmo, it should remain that way. Most people who play gw2 are from mainstream mmos and play this game specifically because it is more casual.

    GW2 raids are casual when compared to other MMOs. No need to go below the already existing easy mode.

    Pls stop comparing to others this is gw 2 not another mmo if ppl think its to hard its for them in their perspective

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2018

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

    Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:

    • T4s are not difficult content.
    • Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
    • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health. <- And that is exactly why he is running a bellow average dps build to begin with, so he can carry parties when they wipe in such situations to save time, rather than be forced to /gg and waste time from a 100% health bar, with a party that will likely wipe again.
    • It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

    Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

    Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:

    • T4s are not difficult content.
    • Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
    • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health.
    • It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

    Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

    You know, playing however you want is nice and good. Until you need to enter instanced, group content. Even then, you can play however you like, unless you detract from the group's success. And once you detract from the group's success, that playstyle of yours come into play. Now, I am by no means an elitist, mind you. I dont need a chronomancer on every run, nor a full heal druid with permaboon stacking. But if you bring a condi reaper as dps with staff as one weapon, or mix of soldier+cleric dps engi (with T4 heal+precisoon food) , or core guard as healer, while having to spend 45minutes for chaos fractal (this happened to me yesterday),well,that keeps ME from succeeding. And i like to succeed. Therefore, your fun detracts from the whole group. So, it is natural for the group to kick the "i play how i want" fella, instead of the dude who at least gets the theorycrafting, and tries to apply it.

  • Geisterlicht.6083Geisterlicht.6083 Member ✭✭
    edited May 21, 2018

    People that need to be solo-carried by such builds won't complain about you playing them (because they likely run weird builds too).

    Its the people that do not need to get carried that complain.

    You can carry people with full glass dps builds, there is no need to go defensive in fractals anyways.

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2018

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

    Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:

    • T4s are not difficult content.
    • Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
    • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health. <- And that is exactly why he is running a bellow average dps build to begin with, so he can carry parties when they wipe in such situations to save time, rather than be forced to /gg and waste time from a 100% health bar, with a party that will likely wipe again.
    • It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

    Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

    My solution remove boonsharing and ability to kick if you start instance you stay there until its finished same for raids and also make benchmarks forbidden my soldier renegade is better than any mirage ore weaver no one has just given it a chance this would enforce the idea of no meta builds wich is better.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

    Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:

    • T4s are not difficult content.
    • Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
    • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health. <- And that is exactly why he is running a bellow average dps build to begin with, so he can carry parties when they wipe in such situations to save time, rather than be forced to /gg and waste time from a 100% health bar, with a party that will likely wipe again.
    • It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

    Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

    My solution remove boonsharing and ability to kick if you start instance you stay there until its finished same for raids and also make benchmarks forbidden my soldier renegade is better than any mirage ore weaver no one has just given it a chance this would enforce the idea of no meta builds wich is better.

    I understood nothing.

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I understood nothing.

    That's normal for most of his posts.

    Praise delta!

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2018

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

    Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:

    • T4s are not difficult content.
    • Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
    • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health.
    • It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

    Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

    You know, playing however you want is nice and good. Until you need to enter instanced, group content. Even then, you can play however you like, unless you detract from the group's success. And once you detract from the group's success, that playstyle of yours come into play. Now, I am by no means an elitist, mind you. I dont need a chronomancer on every run, nor a full heal druid with permaboon stacking. But if you bring a condi reaper as dps with staff as one weapon, or mix of soldier+cleric dps engi (with T4 heal+precisoon food) , or core guard as healer, while having to spend 45minutes for chaos fractal (this happened to me yesterday),well,that keeps ME from succeeding. And i like to succeed. Therefore, your fun detracts from the whole group. So, it is natural for the group to kick the "i play how i want" fella, instead of the dude who at least gets the theorycrafting, and tries to apply it.

    Right there, there it is, a prime example of precisely why I wrote this thread to begin with.

    1. You say that playing however you want is good UNTIL you enter group content. This suggests raid elitism.
    2. You begin talking about "detracting from the group's success" as if no custom build could possibly be a successful build.
    3. You say you are not an elitist, but I think you should watch this video
    4. You go in to describe "soldier/cleric dps engis" as if by "custom build" we mean "running bad builds". This also suggests that you assume all custom builds are running completely improper setups and that some literal "Fractal God" who has complete all raids multiple times with his group, posting record times on youtube, could not possibly run an effective custom build.
    5. You keep talking about "your success", in the purpose of responding to my post. I already stated in my post, that players simply need to properly post in the LFG. If you want a turbo maximum DPS group, label it as such. If you don't, players will join with builds that you don't approve of and they shouldn't be kicked out of a party through blind discrimination, before seeing if they are actually effective.

    Look, there isn't anything wrong with elitism. I feel elitism is actually important to a degree within any community. The problem occurs when plebs begin acting with elite attitudes, who are not elite at all. This serves only to create large amounts of misinformation, unnecessary discrimination, and derails the entire purpose of actual elitism, which is sound leadership and example set. Have you ever wondered why metas flip so frequently even when there is no new patching? Maybe it is because some guy, who was part of a truly elite group, decided to run an off meta build one day, and discovered it was better than the current listed meta. Now reread that carefully "the current listed meta." Yes, that means it is currently identified as the best tactic. It does not mean that is actually the best tactic or the only tactic. It also means that some one source identified this tactic and listed it for you on a website. Some one raid group discovered this and that information was given to a widely acknowledged source of information. Again, it does not mean that it is actually the best, most practical or only tactic. It is a great tactic, that's for sure, but it is not the only.

    In other words, the next time you want to blindly discriminant against a player who isn't running a perfect raid subgroup build, consider the above statements and ask yourself "Am I even elite?" "Do I have the right to act elite while I am copy/pasting someone else's build?" "If I had logged in on day 1 of HoT raid release and had to figure it out on my own with 9 other friends, would we have discovered the same method as the first listed raid meta? or would we have discovered something equally as potent, that simply didn't get listed on a website?" Think about that, really think about it.

  • Bakeneko.5826Bakeneko.5826 Member ✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

    Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:

    • T4s are not difficult content.
    • Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
    • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health. <- And that is exactly why he is running a bellow average dps build to begin with, so he can carry parties when they wipe in such situations to save time, rather than be forced to /gg and waste time from a 100% health bar, with a party that will likely wipe again.
    • It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

    Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

    My solution remove boonsharing and ability to kick if you start instance you stay there until its finished same for raids and also make benchmarks forbidden my soldier renegade is better than any mirage ore weaver no one has just given it a chance this would enforce the idea of no meta builds wich is better.

    I understood nothing.

    What he is saying, basically - if you are kicked from party, you stay in instance, aka troll, by not letting another person in

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bakeneko.5826 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

    Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:

    • T4s are not difficult content.
    • Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
    • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health. <- And that is exactly why he is running a bellow average dps build to begin with, so he can carry parties when they wipe in such situations to save time, rather than be forced to /gg and waste time from a 100% health bar, with a party that will likely wipe again.
    • It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

    Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

    My solution remove boonsharing and ability to kick if you start instance you stay there until its finished same for raids and also make benchmarks forbidden my soldier renegade is better than any mirage ore weaver no one has just given it a chance this would enforce the idea of no meta builds wich is better.

    I understood nothing.

    What he is saying, basically - if you are kicked from party, you stay in instance, aka troll, by not letting another person in

    What it should do is kick that person out of the party's instance, but boot him into his own instance, as if the party had left his instance. I have no idea how the servers work or if this is even possible, but that would be ideal. Then the discriminated player can just LFG and reform his own party.

    As far as removing a party's ability to boot a player out of an instance, I believe that would cause more problems than it would fix. Example: A player who truly is holding a party back "because it does happen" could refuse to leave the instance for the party to be able to pick up an adequate teammate. This would force 4 players who deserve to finish the fractal, to have to restart the fractal. This wouldn't help matters any.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

    Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:

    • T4s are not difficult content.
    • Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
    • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health.
    • It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

    Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

    You know, playing however you want is nice and good. Until you need to enter instanced, group content. Even then, you can play however you like, unless you detract from the group's success. And once you detract from the group's success, that playstyle of yours come into play. Now, I am by no means an elitist, mind you. I dont need a chronomancer on every run, nor a full heal druid with permaboon stacking. But if you bring a condi reaper as dps with staff as one weapon, or mix of soldier+cleric dps engi (with T4 heal+precisoon food) , or core guard as healer, while having to spend 45minutes for chaos fractal (this happened to me yesterday),well,that keeps ME from succeeding. And i like to succeed. Therefore, your fun detracts from the whole group. So, it is natural for the group to kick the "i play how i want" fella, instead of the dude who at least gets the theorycrafting, and tries to apply it.

    Right there, there it is, a prime example of precisely why I wrote this thread to begin with.

    1. You say that playing however you want is good UNTIL you enter group content. This suggests raid elitism.
    2. You begin talking about "detracting from the group's success" as if no custom build could possibly be a successful build.
    3. You say you are not an elitist, but I think you should watch this video
    4. You go in to describe "soldier/cleric dps engis" as if by "custom build" we mean "running bad builds". This also suggests that you assume all custom builds are running completely improper setups and that some literal "Fractal God" who has complete all raids multiple times with his group, posting record times on youtube, could not possibly run an effective custom build.
    5. You keep talking about "your success", in the purpose of responding to my post. I already stated in my post, that players simply need to properly post in the LFG. If you want a turbo maximum DPS group, label it as such. If you don't, players will join with builds that you don't approve of and they shouldn't be kicked out of a party through blind discrimination, before seeing if they are actually effective.

    Look, there isn't anything wrong with elitism. I feel elitism is actually important to a degree within any community. The problem occurs when plebs begin acting with elite attitudes, who are not elite at all. This serves only to create large amounts of misinformation, unnecessary discrimination, and derails the entire purpose of actual elitism, which is sound leadership and example set. Have you ever wondered why metas flip so frequently even when there is no new patching? Maybe it is because some guy, who was part of a truly elite group, decided to run an off meta build one day, and discovered it was better than the current listed meta. Now reread that carefully "the current listed meta." Yes, that means it is currently identified as the best tactic. It does not mean that is actually the best tactic or the only tactic. It also means that some one source identified this tactic and listed it for you on a website. Some one raid group discovered this and that information was given to a widely acknowledged source of information. Again, it does not mean that it is actually the best, most practical or only tactic. It is a great tactic, that's for sure, but it is not the only.

    In other words, the next time you want to blindly discriminant against a player who isn't running a perfect raid subgroup build, consider the above statements and ask yourself "Am I even elite?" "Do I have the right to act elite while I am copy/pasting someone else's build?" "If I had logged in on day 1 of HoT raid release and had to figure it out on my own with 9 other friends, would we have discovered the same method as the first listed raid meta? or would we have discovered something equally as potent, that simply didn't get listed on a website?" Think about that, really think about it.

    1. I said" play however you want, unless you detract from the group success". Not sure why you got confused.
    2. With number 1 in mind, any build that gets the job done within reasonable time is good. Again, not sure why you mix up things. Dps reve? Sure. Is it meta? No. Do i care? No.
    3. Didnt watch, sorry.
    4. Why do you call it bad build? The fella obviously WANTED to play however HE wanted. You disagree with yourself? Small headsup here, not every person who wants stuff done within a reasonable time frame is an elitist. Anything goes, heal fb/engi heal/dps reve /dps reaper etc. But they need to actually kill stuff and clear stuff and not wipe 12 times at the chaos boss. Will the t4 take 10more mins to clear with a non meta group? I dont care. You bring a bad build cause its inconvenient for you to carry your own weight/dont understand basic stuff? That may be a problem.
    5. I apologize for wanting to succeed in what i do. I honestly do. You could very well wanna fail t4 for 3 hours straight, because its ok for you. Its not ok for me.I dont care if a meta grp clears t4in 25 mins and my non meta group does it in 35. I dont care if snowcrows weaver does 35k dps and our dps reve does 15k. Just do not suck. If that is elitism, man, I promise, your mentality is the elitism of casuals.

    Finally, you put a lot of words in my mouth. You could just reread what i wrote. "elitism this elitism that" is all you keep spewing left and right. For the Last time, I do not care if your build is not in metabattle/snowcrows. You pull your own weight? Thats more than fine. You suck at what youre supposed to do? Dont take being kicked as discrimination/elitism. Just get better at What is expected of you.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2018

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

    Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:

    • T4s are not difficult content.
    • Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
    • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health.
    • It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

    Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

    You know, playing however you want is nice and good. Until you need to enter instanced, group content. Even then, you can play however you like, unless you detract from the group's success. And once you detract from the group's success, that playstyle of yours come into play. Now, I am by no means an elitist, mind you. I dont need a chronomancer on every run, nor a full heal druid with permaboon stacking. But if you bring a condi reaper as dps with staff as one weapon, or mix of soldier+cleric dps engi (with T4 heal+precisoon food) , or core guard as healer, while having to spend 45minutes for chaos fractal (this happened to me yesterday),well,that keeps ME from succeeding. And i like to succeed. Therefore, your fun detracts from the whole group. So, it is natural for the group to kick the "i play how i want" fella, instead of the dude who at least gets the theorycrafting, and tries to apply it.

    Right there, there it is, a prime example of precisely why I wrote this thread to begin with.

    1. You say that playing however you want is good UNTIL you enter group content. This suggests raid elitism.
    2. You begin talking about "detracting from the group's success" as if no custom build could possibly be a successful build.
    3. You say you are not an elitist, but I think you should watch this video
    4. You go in to describe "soldier/cleric dps engis" as if by "custom build" we mean "running bad builds". This also suggests that you assume all custom builds are running completely improper setups and that some literal "Fractal God" who has complete all raids multiple times with his group, posting record times on youtube, could not possibly run an effective custom build.
    5. You keep talking about "your success", in the purpose of responding to my post. I already stated in my post, that players simply need to properly post in the LFG. If you want a turbo maximum DPS group, label it as such. If you don't, players will join with builds that you don't approve of and they shouldn't be kicked out of a party through blind discrimination, before seeing if they are actually effective.

    Look, there isn't anything wrong with elitism. I feel elitism is actually important to a degree within any community. The problem occurs when plebs begin acting with elite attitudes, who are not elite at all. This serves only to create large amounts of misinformation, unnecessary discrimination, and derails the entire purpose of actual elitism, which is sound leadership and example set. Have you ever wondered why metas flip so frequently even when there is no new patching? Maybe it is because some guy, who was part of a truly elite group, decided to run an off meta build one day, and discovered it was better than the current listed meta. Now reread that carefully "the current listed meta." Yes, that means it is currently identified as the best tactic. It does not mean that is actually the best tactic or the only tactic. It also means that some one source identified this tactic and listed it for you on a website. Some one raid group discovered this and that information was given to a widely acknowledged source of information. Again, it does not mean that it is actually the best, most practical or only tactic. It is a great tactic, that's for sure, but it is not the only.

    In other words, the next time you want to blindly discriminant against a player who isn't running a perfect raid subgroup build, consider the above statements and ask yourself "Am I even elite?" "Do I have the right to act elite while I am copy/pasting someone else's build?" "If I had logged in on day 1 of HoT raid release and had to figure it out on my own with 9 other friends, would we have discovered the same method as the first listed raid meta? or would we have discovered something equally as potent, that simply didn't get listed on a website?" Think about that, really think about it.

    1. I apologize for wanting to succeed in what i do. I honestly do. You could very well wanna fail t4 for 3 hours straight, because its ok for you. Its not ok for me.I dont care if a meta grp clears t4in 25 mins and my non meta group does it in 35. I dont care if snowcrows weaver does 35k dps and our dps reve does 15k. Just do not suck. If that is elitism, man, I promise, your mentality is the elitism of casuals.

    I don't understand where you're finding all of this difficulty in fractals. Each day I quite seriously create "T4 Dailies" with no other listed requirement, and then I complete the dailies within 30 to 40 minutes without ever having a single fail or need to boot someone from a party. Sometimes with the right party, we can clear in 25 minutes'ish. Then I do a separate LFG for CMs "CMs Pots & Food", I take in every player regardless of team comp and begin play. If a player is struggling I take the time to teach them the fractal and 9/10 times we succeed after a simple 60s explanation of the CM. The only time I ever have to boot players is the truly rare occurrence that someone joins a T4 CM who is inexperienced with a completely inadequate build like you mentioned before, some cleric/soldier bunker, who is somehow still dying during the fractal. If the party can't pull his weight, then we have to boot, but usually people just let these guys tag along and we finish the fractal anyway, not a big deal.

    I just don't understand where player are finding such difficulty in fractals where, if they don't put together perfect raid subgroup metas, they wipe over and over and can't succeed. Like... most of the T4 content is solo'able, outside of things like "stand on 2 panels while 1 person gets on mechanism".

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health. <- And that is exactly why he is running a bellow average dps build to begin with, so he can carry parties when they wipe in such situations to save time, rather than be forced to /gg and waste time from a 100% health bar, with a party that will likely wipe again.

    You seem to be misunderstanding something here.
    In both cases you most often can finish the encounter when somebody dies. I've killed Matthias on multiple occasions with 5/10 people dead. The point of wiping usually isn't that you can't finish, it's that it makes no sense. When you wipe, it's because it's the faster and safer way. Which I'd pick 10 out of 10 times instead of relying on someone who does no damage to eventually wear the boss down. And if he insist on soloing it, frankly I'd kick him with no hesitation and no regrets.

    It just amounts down to what is going to be faster, solo finish in 5 minutes from a reliable player or /gg. I mean, if the party wipes when a boss is 50% yeah of course you want to /gg, but if the party wipes when the boss is like 3%-5% health, it just depends on who it is that is still alive.

    You also have to consider that strong players get tired of /gging with a group that they know has a high chance of wiping in the same exact way again, and then having to /gg again. So if a boss is less than 10% health and they know they can just finish the kitten fractal without needing to /gg, they do it and it saves time. I've had to do this many times in 99CM specifically vs. MAMA and Ensolyss. People always get salty about it but w/e, I'd rather get through the fractal in 30 minutes instead of 2 hours due to politely /gging for inexperienced players over and over.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2018

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health. <- And that is exactly why he is running a bellow average dps build to begin with, so he can carry parties when they wipe in such situations to save time, rather than be forced to /gg and waste time from a 100% health bar, with a party that will likely wipe again.

    You seem to be misunderstanding something here.
    In both cases you most often can finish the encounter when somebody dies. I've killed Matthias on multiple occasions with 5/10 people dead. The point of wiping usually isn't that you can't finish, it's that it makes no sense. When you wipe, it's because it's the faster and safer way. Which I'd pick 10 out of 10 times instead of relying on someone who does no damage to eventually wear the boss down. And if he insist on soloing it, frankly I'd kick him with no hesitation and no regrets.

    It just amounts down to what is going to be faster, solo finish in 5 minutes from a reliable player or /gg. I mean, if the party wipes when a boss is 50% yeah of course you want to /gg, but if the party wipes when the boss is like 3%-5% health, it just depends on who it is that is still alive.

    You also have to consider that strong players get tired of /gging with a group that they know has a high chance of wiping in the same exact way again, and then having to /gg again. So if a boss is less than 10% health and they know they can just finish the kitten fractal without needing to /gg, they do it and it saves time. I've had to do this many times in 99CM specifically vs. MAMA and Ensolyss. People always get salty about it but w/e, I'd rather get through the fractal in 30 minutes instead of 2 hours due to politely /gging for inexperienced players over and over.

    Well, that's rarely the case and most of the experienced players can estimate if it's worth it. For example MAMA, soloing the last 10% in 5 min is longer than a clean restart. And of course, if we are speaking of 3% nobody cares at all when you solo it. 10% to 3% is a huge difference btw.
    In addition most of the experienced groups only wipe once (if at all) due to a miss play that can happen from time to time. In the usual CM groups you don't wipe. For 100 CM my runs are almost always LNHB runs only interrupted by /gg before Arkk to have cd reset.

    I have the comparison over 2 months now between my main (mostly meta only + cms since 6 months) and my twink (only T4s, rarely a cm). The difference is visible and undeniable - the runs from the latter aren't nearly as smooth.

  • Bakeneko.5826Bakeneko.5826 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    Well, that's rarely the case and most of the experienced players can estimate if it's worth it. For example MAMA, soloing the last 10% in 5 min is longer than a clean restart. And of course, if we are speaking of 3% nobody cares at all when you solo it. 10% to 3% is a huge difference btw.
    In addition most of the experienced groups only wipe once (if at all) due to a miss play that can happen from time to time. In the usual CM groups you don't wipe. For 100 CM my runs are almost always LNHB runs only interrupted by /gg before Arkk to have cd reset.

    I have the comparison over 2 months now between my main (mostly meta only + cms since 6 months) and my twink (only T4s, rarely a cm). The difference is visible and undeniable - the runs from the latter aren't nearly as smooth.

    Who even wipes at MAMA? Most bumpy runs I've been in for past year, only one or two people got downed. Also, MAMA is almost never worth soloing - if you have Weaver left, it will take forever because it won't be able to stay stationary to go max DPS and non DPS will do next to no DMG. It's faster to reset fighting unless boss HP is under 2%, since MAMA burns down extremely fast anyway.

    Most experienced groups never wipe. Maybe looses a player, but never wipes.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bakeneko.5826 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    Well, that's rarely the case and most of the experienced players can estimate if it's worth it. For example MAMA, soloing the last 10% in 5 min is longer than a clean restart. And of course, if we are speaking of 3% nobody cares at all when you solo it. 10% to 3% is a huge difference btw.
    In addition most of the experienced groups only wipe once (if at all) due to a miss play that can happen from time to time. In the usual CM groups you don't wipe. For 100 CM my runs are almost always LNHB runs only interrupted by /gg before Arkk to have cd reset.

    I have the comparison over 2 months now between my main (mostly meta only + cms since 6 months) and my twink (only T4s, rarely a cm). The difference is visible and undeniable - the runs from the latter aren't nearly as smooth.

    Who even wipes at MAMA? Most bumpy runs I've been in for past year, only one or two people got downed. Also, MAMA is almost never worth soloing - if you have Weaver left, it will take forever because it won't be able to stay stationary to go max DPS and non DPS will do next to no DMG. It's faster to reset fighting unless boss HP is under 2%, since MAMA burns down extremely fast anyway.

    Most experienced groups never wipe. Maybe looses a player, but never wipes.

    That's what I was saying but @Trevor Boyer.6524 has a different opinion.

  • Bakeneko.5826Bakeneko.5826 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Bakeneko.5826 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    Well, that's rarely the case and most of the experienced players can estimate if it's worth it. For example MAMA, soloing the last 10% in 5 min is longer than a clean restart. And of course, if we are speaking of 3% nobody cares at all when you solo it. 10% to 3% is a huge difference btw.
    In addition most of the experienced groups only wipe once (if at all) due to a miss play that can happen from time to time. In the usual CM groups you don't wipe. For 100 CM my runs are almost always LNHB runs only interrupted by /gg before Arkk to have cd reset.

    I have the comparison over 2 months now between my main (mostly meta only + cms since 6 months) and my twink (only T4s, rarely a cm). The difference is visible and undeniable - the runs from the latter aren't nearly as smooth.

    Who even wipes at MAMA? Most bumpy runs I've been in for past year, only one or two people got downed. Also, MAMA is almost never worth soloing - if you have Weaver left, it will take forever because it won't be able to stay stationary to go max DPS and non DPS will do next to no DMG. It's faster to reset fighting unless boss HP is under 2%, since MAMA burns down extremely fast anyway.

    Most experienced groups never wipe. Maybe looses a player, but never wipes.

    That's what I was saying but @Trevor Boyer.6524 has a different opinion.

    I mean, if someone wants to show how good they are, they can try, because it is possible, but it will look even worse when it fails

  • Martimus.6027Martimus.6027 Member ✭✭✭

    So to sum up:

    "Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

    Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

    I may not be what you want, baby, but I am most certainly what you need.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2018

    @Martimus.6027 said:
    So to sum up:

    "Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

    Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

    Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

  • Martimus.6027Martimus.6027 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2018

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:
    So to sum up:

    "Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

    Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

    Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

    You can get rid of terms like "discriminate." That's ridiculous, I'm sorry. This is not some social justice situation. There is no cop-out. You are absolutely positively assuming a moral high ground and flat out demanding people play this game according to your moral code. That person's right to form the group he chose to form gives him the right to include in it whoever he wants, for good or ill.

    What do you expect as a solution to your isssue? For ANet to ban that person? Write them an email and demand that they include you and whatever classes/specs you want in that party? Do you want to be appointed as some council member who makes rules to determine how people can form groups to play the game they paid for and devote time in to play based on some Ministry of LFG you created? Do you want to, by Developer force, tell someone else how they have to play this game? That's the road you are going down.

    Mow your own yard before you tell your neighbor how to trim his hedges. If you don't like his yard, don't go to his BBQs. But don't go to the city council hall meeting and tell the mayor to force your neighbor to cut his grass and landscape his yard according to your own idea of how it should be.

    I may not be what you want, baby, but I am most certainly what you need.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2018

    @Martimus.6027 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:
    So to sum up:

    "Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

    Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

    Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

    You can get rid of terms like "discriminate." That's ridiculous, I'm sorry. This is not some social justice situation. There is no cop-out. You are absolutely positively assuming a moral high ground and flat out demanding people play this game according to your moral code. That person's right to form the group he chose to form gives him the right to include in it whoever he wants, for good or ill.

    What do you expect as a solution to your isssue? For ANet to ban that person? Write them an email and demand that they include you and whatever classes/specs you want in that party? Do you want to be appointed as some council member who makes rules to determine how people can form groups to play the game they paid for and devote time in to play based on some Ministry of LFG you created?

    Mow your own yard before you tell your neighbor how to trim his hedges. If you don't like his yard, don't go to his BBQs.

    Are you reading anything that anyone is posting?

    I said the problem is that a player makes a general "T4 Daily" group, wanting to play his slightly off-meta build, and welcoming others to do the same. Then 2 or 3 guys join with are running copy/pasted raid subgroup builds and begin kicking players out of the party, including the person who opened the LFG to begin with. So the idea of what you said: "Just make your own group" half of the time, isn't working. Why isn't it working? Because of discrimination vs. even slightly off meta builds.

  • Martimus.6027Martimus.6027 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2018

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:
    So to sum up:

    "Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

    Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

    Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

    You can get rid of terms like "discriminate." That's ridiculous, I'm sorry. This is not some social justice situation. There is no cop-out. You are absolutely positively assuming a moral high ground and flat out demanding people play this game according to your moral code. That person's right to form the group he chose to form gives him the right to include in it whoever he wants, for good or ill.

    What do you expect as a solution to your isssue? For ANet to ban that person? Write them an email and demand that they include you and whatever classes/specs you want in that party? Do you want to be appointed as some council member who makes rules to determine how people can form groups to play the game they paid for and devote time in to play based on some Ministry of LFG you created?

    Mow your own yard before you tell your neighbor how to trim his hedges. If you don't like his yard, don't go to his BBQs.

    Are you reading anything that anyone is posting?

    I said the problem is that a player makes a general "T4 Daily" group, wanting to play his slightly off-meta build, and welcoming others to do the same. Then 2 or 3 guys join with are running copy/pasted raid subgroup builds and begin kicking players out of the party, including the person who opened the LFG to begin with.

    .........So leave the group and start your own group. That's my point. And others have repeated it. What they did was garbage. Not arguing that. But what do you expect to be done about it?

    I may not be what you want, baby, but I am most certainly what you need.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:
    So to sum up:

    "Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

    Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

    Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

    So kick them. Or leave. Complaining that other players do not behave like you want them to is an exercise in futility. It's their time, and their decision.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Martimus.6027 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:
    So to sum up:

    "Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

    Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

    Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

    You can get rid of terms like "discriminate." That's ridiculous, I'm sorry. This is not some social justice situation. There is no cop-out. You are absolutely positively assuming a moral high ground and flat out demanding people play this game according to your moral code. That person's right to form the group he chose to form gives him the right to include in it whoever he wants, for good or ill.

    What do you expect as a solution to your isssue? For ANet to ban that person? Write them an email and demand that they include you and whatever classes/specs you want in that party? Do you want to be appointed as some council member who makes rules to determine how people can form groups to play the game they paid for and devote time in to play based on some Ministry of LFG you created?

    Mow your own yard before you tell your neighbor how to trim his hedges. If you don't like his yard, don't go to his BBQs.

    Are you reading anything that anyone is posting?

    I said the problem is that a player makes a general "T4 Daily" group, wanting to play his slightly off-meta build, and welcoming others to do the same. Then 2 or 3 guys join with are running copy/pasted raid subgroup builds and begin kicking players out of the party, including the person who opened the LFG to begin with.

    .........So leave the group and start your own group. That's my point. And others have repeated it.

    Buuuuuuuuuut the point is that a person who makes a non elite LFG open for anyone, who has already completed half a fractal before being kicked due not to ineffectiveness but rather discrimination, should not be denied his credit for the work he has done. Ok so he leaves and starts his own group. What if the same thing happens again? Is that fair for the player who only owns Core, who can't run any HoT or PoF builds?

  • Martimus.6027Martimus.6027 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:
    So to sum up:

    "Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

    Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

    Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

    You can get rid of terms like "discriminate." That's ridiculous, I'm sorry. This is not some social justice situation. There is no cop-out. You are absolutely positively assuming a moral high ground and flat out demanding people play this game according to your moral code. That person's right to form the group he chose to form gives him the right to include in it whoever he wants, for good or ill.

    What do you expect as a solution to your isssue? For ANet to ban that person? Write them an email and demand that they include you and whatever classes/specs you want in that party? Do you want to be appointed as some council member who makes rules to determine how people can form groups to play the game they paid for and devote time in to play based on some Ministry of LFG you created?

    Mow your own yard before you tell your neighbor how to trim his hedges. If you don't like his yard, don't go to his BBQs.

    Are you reading anything that anyone is posting?

    I said the problem is that a player makes a general "T4 Daily" group, wanting to play his slightly off-meta build, and welcoming others to do the same. Then 2 or 3 guys join with are running copy/pasted raid subgroup builds and begin kicking players out of the party, including the person who opened the LFG to begin with.

    .........So leave the group and start your own group. That's my point. And others have repeated it.

    Buuuuuuuuuut the point is that a person who makes a non elite LFG open for anyone, who has already completed half a fractal before being kicked due not to ineffectiveness but rather discrimination, should not be denied his credit for the work he has done. Ok so he leaves and starts his own group. What if the same thing happens again? Is that fair for the player who only owns Core, who can't run any HoT or PoF builds?

    No, we aren't doing what-ifs. There is no what-if made up scenarios we are going to argue here. I certainly won't. The issue is that class balance is mucked up right now and has been for a while.

    People are always going to be selective when they form a group or are in a group where most people want a certain makeup to occur. That's democracy I suppose. Majority rule. I'm asking you again: What solution do you suggest to fix this?

    I may not be what you want, baby, but I am most certainly what you need.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:
    So to sum up:

    "Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

    Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

    Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

    So kick them. Or leave. Complaining that other players do not behave like you want them to is an exercise in futility. It's their time, and their decision.

    Do you guys read anything? I'm talking about the very frequent scenario that every other poster is also talking about, where it is the guy who is running slight off meta who is being vote kicked. He can't just turn around and vote kick 2 or 3 people who are trying to vote kick him and expect all of those players to be vote kicked by each other. The inevitable happening is that the player being discriminated against, is going to be the one who gets kicked, even when he does not want to leave the party, even when he has contributed adequately, and even when he was the one who started the LFG to begin with.

    You're both missing the ultimate point here, which is discrimination regardless of performance. It does happen often. Not so much to those of us with 30k APs, most people see 30k AP and they give you the benefit of a doubt when you're running some custom build. But players with like 6k APs, they get vote kicked almost immediately. Don't even respond and act like you haven't done this yourself during CMs. Even I have.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Martimus.6027 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:
    So to sum up:

    "Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

    Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

    Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

    You can get rid of terms like "discriminate." That's ridiculous, I'm sorry. This is not some social justice situation. There is no cop-out. You are absolutely positively assuming a moral high ground and flat out demanding people play this game according to your moral code. That person's right to form the group he chose to form gives him the right to include in it whoever he wants, for good or ill.

    What do you expect as a solution to your isssue? For ANet to ban that person? Write them an email and demand that they include you and whatever classes/specs you want in that party? Do you want to be appointed as some council member who makes rules to determine how people can form groups to play the game they paid for and devote time in to play based on some Ministry of LFG you created?

    Mow your own yard before you tell your neighbor how to trim his hedges. If you don't like his yard, don't go to his BBQs.

    Are you reading anything that anyone is posting?

    I said the problem is that a player makes a general "T4 Daily" group, wanting to play his slightly off-meta build, and welcoming others to do the same. Then 2 or 3 guys join with are running copy/pasted raid subgroup builds and begin kicking players out of the party, including the person who opened the LFG to begin with.

    .........So leave the group and start your own group. That's my point. And others have repeated it.

    Buuuuuuuuuut the point is that a person who makes a non elite LFG open for anyone, who has already completed half a fractal before being kicked due not to ineffectiveness but rather discrimination, should not be denied his credit for the work he has done. Ok so he leaves and starts his own group. What if the same thing happens again? Is that fair for the player who only owns Core, who can't run any HoT or PoF builds?

    No, we aren't doing what-ifs. There is no what-if made up scenarios we are going to argue here. I certainly won't. The issue is that class balance is mucked up right now and has been for a while.

    People are always going to be selective when they form a group or are in a group where most people want a certain makeup to occur. That's democracy I suppose. Majority rule. I'm asking you again: What solution do you suggest to fix this?

    Again, if you had read anything in this thread at all, you'd see that we've already come to this conclusion multiple times over, and that is -> Don't blindly discriminate based on raid meta elitism. Give players a chance to prove their worth first. If they're bad, holding the group down, and need to be booted, no one is questioning that type of party kick.

  • Martimus.6027Martimus.6027 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2018

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:
    So to sum up:

    "Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

    Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

    Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

    You can get rid of terms like "discriminate." That's ridiculous, I'm sorry. This is not some social justice situation. There is no cop-out. You are absolutely positively assuming a moral high ground and flat out demanding people play this game according to your moral code. That person's right to form the group he chose to form gives him the right to include in it whoever he wants, for good or ill.

    What do you expect as a solution to your isssue? For ANet to ban that person? Write them an email and demand that they include you and whatever classes/specs you want in that party? Do you want to be appointed as some council member who makes rules to determine how people can form groups to play the game they paid for and devote time in to play based on some Ministry of LFG you created?

    Mow your own yard before you tell your neighbor how to trim his hedges. If you don't like his yard, don't go to his BBQs.

    Are you reading anything that anyone is posting?

    I said the problem is that a player makes a general "T4 Daily" group, wanting to play his slightly off-meta build, and welcoming others to do the same. Then 2 or 3 guys join with are running copy/pasted raid subgroup builds and begin kicking players out of the party, including the person who opened the LFG to begin with.

    .........So leave the group and start your own group. That's my point. And others have repeated it.

    Buuuuuuuuuut the point is that a person who makes a non elite LFG open for anyone, who has already completed half a fractal before being kicked due not to ineffectiveness but rather discrimination, should not be denied his credit for the work he has done. Ok so he leaves and starts his own group. What if the same thing happens again? Is that fair for the player who only owns Core, who can't run any HoT or PoF builds?

    No, we aren't doing what-ifs. There is no what-if made up scenarios we are going to argue here. I certainly won't. The issue is that class balance is mucked up right now and has been for a while.

    People are always going to be selective when they form a group or are in a group where most people want a certain makeup to occur. That's democracy I suppose. Majority rule. I'm asking you again: What solution do you suggest to fix this?

    Again, if you had read anything in this thread at all, you'd see that we've already come to this conclusion multiple times over, and that is -> Don't blindly discriminate based on raid meta elitism. Give players a chance to prove their worth first. If they're bad, holding the group down, and need to be booted, no one is questioning that type of party kick.

    I am not going to read 14 pages of posts, but those aren't solutions. You're right though I should have read more than I did, and I accept fault for that. My apologies. But..... That's attempting to change human nature and wanting people to play how you want them to.

    I may not be what you want, baby, but I am most certainly what you need.

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:
    So to sum up:

    "Other people playing how they wanted to bothers me."

    Just make your own group. This wasn't necessary and your right to play how you want ends with his right to play how he wants. I mean no offense, but honestly, was this necessary? Just make your own group!

    Yup that's what the entire discussion is about. If you had read any of it, you'd see that the largest complaint in here is when a player makes or joins an unlabeled LFG such as just: "T4 Dailies", then there are still players who discriminate based on raid meta elitism, even though it is an unlabeled LFG. So in other words, this cliché "make your own group" is becoming quite the redundant cop-out response.

    So kick them. Or leave. Complaining that other players do not behave like you want them to is an exercise in futility. It's their time, and their decision.

    Do you guys read anything? I'm talking about the very frequent scenario that every other poster is also talking about, where it is the guy who is running slight off meta who is being vote kicked. He can't just turn around and vote kick 2 or 3 people who are trying to vote kick him and expect all of those players to be vote kicked by each other. The inevitable happening is that the player being discriminated against, is going to be the one who gets kicked, even when he does not want to leave the party, even when he has contributed adequately, and even when he was the one who started the LFG to begin with.

    You're both missing the ultimate point here, which is discrimination regardless of performance. It does happen often. Not so much to those of us with 30k APs, most people see 30k AP and they give you the benefit of a doubt when you're running some custom build. But players with like 6k APs, they get vote kicked almost immediately. Don't even respond and act like you haven't done this yourself during CMs. Even I have.

    It's so common it happens to a handful of people a handful of times out of the who knows how many fractal runs that happen on a daily basis. Total epidemic

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hmm, the problem of a label "T4 Dailies" is you can get both meta and off-meta people. The label can have a wide range of expectation. Either the attitude "I don't care, let's just play T4s. We'll do it." or "This group needs to be a successful team to finish T4s." (I made it vague on purpose here. It can also mean a lot more.)

    If you want to make sure to not get certain players you should be very precise with your lfg. Something like "T4 Dailies - relaxed run but know your stuff" will help much more finding relevant players. I bet 99% of meta players will ignore it or if they join don't say any word at all unless it's not a big disaster a.k.a. wiping over and over again on a certain encounter. Meta players just do it the other way round. They set up requirements and strict class selection to ensure they get the people they want to clear stuff in their favorite style/speed.
    Sure, sometimes you get "wrong" players into your group. Happens to both variants, I know. But let's be honest it's not that this happens at remarkable numbers.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    You're both missing the ultimate point here, which is discrimination regardless of performance.

    No, you're missing the ultimate point. You can't force others to behave like you want them. Discrimination will always happen, regardless what you do. Just learn to deal with it. It isn't that hard, really.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Honestly I run into the described behaviour here extremely rarely. Just try to have a descriptive LFG. Not many people will come and hijack your squad just for the lols.

  • eXruina.4956eXruina.4956 Member ✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    No, you're missing the ultimate point. You can't force others to behave like you want them. Discrimination will always happen, regardless what you do. Just learn to deal with it. It isn't that hard, really.

    Lol this.. wish I've seen the look on their faces when they were dealt with.. but knowing is enough. ^^

    @Trevor Boyer.6524, I feel you.., but people like that aren't going away anytime soon without enforcement.. and they make out about a good portion of the people lurking in PvE at the moment, don't think its healthy for any game to just rip a hole into its populace.. Thus said better to stop wasting your time here, its far more rewarding being proactive, just take screens/ solid proof and report improper actions accordingly.

    Also, honestly GW2 is pretty low on the toxicity scale compared to a lot of other mmorpgs out there.. thats because it is actually being enforced to a certain degree.. have faith in the system. ;D

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You guys are going way too deep morally, Lincoln/Douglas debate style here. No one is arguing with the moral side of things you're stating. I'm simply referencing that it only takes 3 people to vote kick some guy who joins on a Core Guardian, who does not have the option to play DH. So before judging him based on elite raid discrimination, just give the guy a chance to be effective before kicking.

    This does happen often to players who don't own w/e expansion it is that they need to run a meta, and this is a large part of why you don't see many people in T4s running core builds. They catch so much grief for it that it drives them away from the game mode, regardless of their performance. <- This is called discrimination. These people are making due with what they have access to, or sometimes it's just a bored "Fractal God" who wanted to run something different, who probably can out DPS everyone else in the party and solo things like Arkk, with an off meta build.

    Before you respond again, with morals and anecdotal facts, know that I am not searching for responses and regurgitated statements. I am simply pointing out, that T4 fractals are not hard and the difference between Having a power burst DH or a Grieving Core Guardian in your team is maybe 2 to 3 minutes tops, at the end of your run.

    Before you respond again, about "playing how you like or doing what you want" remember that I am not talking about kicking players who truly are poor players or who have terrible setups or who just aren't on the right class "say you wanted a Chrono, not a Berserker Warrior". No one is questioning these kind of kicks. I am talking about flat out discrimination based on preconceived elitist attitudes that a player is immediately bad or ineffective because he is not running what a meta site has listed.

    ~ Players should stop defending discriminatory party kicking as it is an ignorant practice that further limits build diversity in easy game modes.

  • vaxjani.9073vaxjani.9073 Member ✭✭

    There is this thing in game called "chat window". It is used to communicate.
    If you are playing an off-meta build just inform the group (even if its you own lfg) what you wanna play and if its okay. If they say it isnt then kick/leave and find a new party, if they give you a chance then prove yourself. Most of these "discriminating" and "kitten the elitists" complaints can be avoided by communicating with others.

    Play with those people that have the same mentality as you. And because they cant read your mind you have to inform and tell them (in chat, in lfg) what and how you wanna play.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vaxjani.9073 said:
    There is this thing in game called "chat window". It is used to communicate.
    If you are playing an off-meta build just inform the group (even if its you own lfg) what you wanna play and if its okay. If they say it isnt then kick/leave and find a new party, if they give you a chance then prove yourself. Most of these "discriminating" and "kitten the elitists" complaints can be avoided by communicating with others.

    Play with those people that have the same mentality as you. And because they cant read your mind you have to inform and tell them (in chat, in lfg) what and how you wanna play.

    Now see, that's just more discrimination.

    • Expect the person who made an LFG, who opened the fractal to begin with, to ask other people if it's ok that he plays his build in a plain labeled "T4 Dailies"? And if not, he is supposed to leave the game he opened initially and go make another, waiting for acceptance from other players that it is ok to play his build before he plays the game? No, just no. That's dumping all responsibility of this issue onto the head of the guy who isn't "playing a meta". Whilst you mention nothing about the responsibilities of good communication and etiquette on the part of users who are "playing meta". Apparently they can do whatever they want and others should have to just deal with it. That behavior is the very definition of discrimination.
    • Play with others who have the same mentality as I do? I just don't care who I play with, that's the point. I make a bland "T4 Dailies" each day, and complete it in 30 to 45 minutes, regardless of who joins. Sometimes the group is amazing, sometimes it's a group I have to carry in a little red wagon behind me, the entire way through. If it's a fractal that I require teammates who SURVIVE to be able to complete, such as 2 panels and 1 mechanism, then sometimes I also have to vote kick. But I always give players a chance to prove they are capable of completing the fractal before vote kicking based on blind raid meta discrimination. The point being is that when you LFG you don't know who is going to join your group. Because I label it bland "T4 Dailies" does not mean that elitist players won't join. Because I label it "T4 Dailies Meta Only Need Chrono/Druid", doesn't mean that those players will join. Because I label it "T4 Dailies All Welcome", doesn't mean some 2 man team who joins who are elitist, won't get impatient with some new player and begin to vote kick him just because they noticed his DPS was lacking. If a 3rd person vote kicks that guy, he gets booted out and there isn't anything I can do about it as the person who opened that "All Welcome" fractal. Is it fair that the new guy got booted out of a group that said "All Welcome"? No it isn't, and it's a petty thing to do to someone after joining an obviously bland labeled or all welcome fractal.

    Players need to take responsibility for their own behavior rather than trying to push it off on others.

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Players need to take responsibility for their own behavior rather than trying to push it off on others.

    that goes both ways

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    You guys are going way too deep morally, Lincoln/Douglas debate style here. No one is arguing with the moral side of things you're stating. I'm simply referencing that it only takes 3 people to vote kick some guy who joins on a Core Guardian, who does not have the option to play DH. So before judging him based on elite raid discrimination, just give the guy a chance to be effective before kicking.

    This does happen often to players who don't own w/e expansion it is that they need to run a meta, and this is a large part of why you don't see many people in T4s running core builds. They catch so much grief for it that it drives them away from the game mode, regardless of their performance. <- This is called discrimination. These people are making due with what they have access to, or sometimes it's just a bored "Fractal God" who wanted to run something different, who probably can out DPS everyone else in the party and solo things like Arkk, with an off meta build.

    Before you respond again, with morals and anecdotal facts, know that I am not searching for responses and regurgitated statements. I am simply pointing out, that T4 fractals are not hard and the difference between Having a power burst DH or a Grieving Core Guardian in your team is maybe 2 to 3 minutes tops, at the end of your run.

    Before you respond again, about "playing how you like or doing what you want" remember that I am not talking about kicking players who truly are poor players or who have terrible setups or who just aren't on the right class "say you wanted a Chrono, not a Berserker Warrior". No one is questioning these kind of kicks. I am talking about flat out discrimination based on preconceived elitist attitudes that a player is immediately bad or ineffective because he is not running what a meta site has listed.

    ~ Players should stop defending discriminatory party kicking as it is an ignorant practice that further limits build diversity in easy game modes.

    See. It's not that I'm defending kicking. I'm explaining why it will always happen and you can do nothing against it. Complaining is pointless. You got kicked? Go on an make your own LFG. You get kicked again? Go on and make another. Kinda sucks, but it's the thing you can actually do. Whining that players shouldn't do it won't change anything. And let me also say that if the pattern of kicking persists, then perhaps you're stretching yourself too far. Perhaps you're overestimating your own contribution, or perhaps you're underestimating the difficulty of the content, perhaps because you're often being carried through it. Not necessarily, just perhaps.

    And it cycles back around again for the bump and the troll. Look, I'm not posting this on behalf of myself. I run all meta builds on all classes and have no problems clearing T4 and CM fractals. Sometimes I do run random custom things in T4 normal though, out of curiosity/wanting something different, particularly core builds. I like to see if I can arrange them in to something semi-viable. I am posting this from a standpoint of community awareness, seeing as how elite raid meta has blinded players from weighting their vote kicks correctly. This doesn't happen 100% of the time I am playing so don't put words into my mouth. But it does happen somewhat frequently and I see a few really unfair kicks a week, at the least. Things like this:

    • People generally leave a bad group if wipe at MAMA, the mindframe is usually "just leave now before it's a waste of time" <- Not a problem here
    • Party wipes once or twice at Siax. Siax is a DPS based challenge yes, but it also about surviving. After that bad wipe or two, people get weird with wanting to ensure their slot in the party so they start pointing fingers at anyone but themselves. So if 4 guys are running meta builds, unless one of them stands out greatly as the source of a problem, they will look at some guy who is running a slightly lower DPS benchmark than a meta build and begin vote kicking him because it's easy to do and it's the 1st step towards staying in the party to get your credit. The point being is that I'll see that the wipe was not due to a lack of DPS, but rather people just dying and stupid times. But lo and behold they cry "not enough DPS" or "we need a chrono, not this guy" as if it has anything to do with surviving the snake phase. Sure you could argue that faster DPS equates to survival, and in some situations it indeed does, but not always. In some situations, people just need to stay alive to be able to DPS in the first place. But this new elite mentality creates aversion from the source of actual problems and allows discrimination to blame anyone who is not running meta. It is an ignorant practice. Is it fair for the guy who was surviving and dealing enough DPS to solo his own snake? No it's not. You can argue that "party kicking just happens so deal with it" but that's not the point.
    • Party wipes at Ensolyss due to sheer inability to survive the cap phase. Again, some guy starts getting frustrated and rather than acknowledging that the wipe is happening due to INABILITY TO SURVIVE, he starts complaining about 1 or 2 players lower DPS because it is frustrating him that it is taking longer to DPS Ensol back to the cap phases, than expected benchmarks. Out of sheer frustration, they begin vote kicking anyone who is not on a meta build, because they want the run to go faster. Again, it is an ignorant practice. The players who were lower DPS were the players capable of solo capping their own node easily and who sometimes were able to double cap before going down. If the entire party were comprised of those types of builds/players, they would 1 shot Ensolyss. It may take the amount of the time of two speedy high DPS Ensol kills combined, but it gets done. So rather than acknowledge that those players should stay and get the credit they have worked for and carried for, they get vote kicked because a meta elitist is getting frustrated with a lower DPS count down vs. the cap phase. When in reality, the source of the problem are the meta elite DPSers who are not able to survive on their meta builds. They should be getting kicked, not the guys with lower DPS who can actually complete the fractal.
    • ect.. ect.. ect.. Same thing in 100. I see it happen the most frequently directly after the first boss, regardless of fail or success. Even if a successful 1 shot, just about every other time I am in a 100 CM, some guy has to pick out someone who he feels isn't meeting DPS standards, and tries to kick him. Is it fair that a player gets kicked because he will add +2 minutes onto the completion time of a 100CM? No it isn't, that's ridiculous.

    Defend it all you want but it's just hyperactive elitism and does nothing but pour toxic standards all over an otherwise casual game mode. I'm not arguing that it will or won't happen or that players shouldn't get used to, so spare yourselves some time. All I'm saying is: Be aware of the difference between vote kicking someone who is holding the party down substantially, and vote kicking someone based on blind elite meta discrimination.

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