Raid Elitism Happening In Fractals - Page 12 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raid Elitism Happening In Fractals

11012141516

Comments

  • Alaya.8765Alaya.8765 Member ✭✭
    edited May 23, 2018

    Well I do not know about normal T4 toxic elitists but if you look at the way everyone behaves online it is easy to see that the less information a LFG gives you the higher the randomness of said LFG group can be.

    If a group says "T4 Daily Meta only" you can expect a kick for anything not core meta since ppl want it that way even if it mostly can be nonsense but the LFG said so.

    If a group says "chill run" , "fun run", "no meta" etc you can assume it is going to be exactly as it was advertised. Well you can still get someone annoying who does not shut up about build, dmg or whatever who either joins just so he can flame and has fun annoying ppl or whatever reason you could have but well even in real life you have ppl buying a slice of pumpkin pie and complaining about it tasting like pumpkin so what do we even expect here.

    If the group says "CMs+ T4" and has a kp requirement and wants specific classes it is because the ppl making the group have enough of new players who have no idea about mechanics etc and are just doing it the way it works. Naturally a fancy build you had no idea existed can work out well but the emphasis lies in "CAN" so most ppl just do not care to try since it can fail just as much. (well if a friend of mine whom I do know off that the build works joins it is a different story but not pugs ^^) Also most of them are farming it just for the gold etc like I do myself. I rather wait 10 minutes in lfg while doing something different on my second monitor or watching TV than carrying someone failing mechanics or doing not enough (I do not care about benchmark dps myself but if the weaver has a hard dps race against the chrono well I am not even going to discuss it) dps. Well even here we have ppl faking kp with chatlinks but you sometimes think well lets just try him even tough he faked if he does good fine if not we can kick either way and also it cuts the waiting time. Here we also have the famous ppl leaving after either of the CMs or whenever but this is a different problem.

    If a group only flags "T4 Daily" you can expect a healthy mix of either saying nothing, having a "T4 Daily Meta only" feel, a "chill run" feel or a "CM" run feel since the LFG did not specify anything.

    I may have been a bit long winded but well it is just to show my point that in my opinion a longer LFG text restricts the kind of player that joins a group but if you only have a bland "T4 daily" everything can swarm in from elitist to noob. So it honestly is less of a raid elitism happening in fractals but more of a you get what you are looking for kinda situation.
    As if in you a LFG without any extra mentions it is a lucky draw with your 4 members and it can go from nice to "I so hate that one guy".
    A lot of ppl do not care about how they behave online since "why should I care not like anyone can do anything either way as long as I do not overstep my bounds" and a lot of ppl find enjoyment in pissing others off when they can do nothing against it.

    So there are 2 options one can pick
    a) Deal with the group you get from a bland "T4 daily" LFG as in go along with the elite crying one, ignore him or kick him and move on.
    b) Make a longer LFG text that sorts out ppl or join a group with the requirements you like.

    In the Internet the moment you show any kind of reaction to a troll (or in our case someone crying about skills classes or dps in a bland "T4 daily" group) as in answering or starting a discussion or calling him out on his mistake you lose.

    While all of the groups I mentioned can have exceptions most of them won't. You naturally can get a super skilled person to carry the whole group all the way without any kind of dissatisfied voice of said person. You can also get the exact opposite.

    tl;dr : Join a group with specific requirement even if it is "chill run" and resolutely boot anyone complaining about said requirement and never ever start to discuss the content of said requirement since the moment you do you lose.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Happened at the same rate before HoT.

    Thing on Siax is: The more dps the easier. Worse dps than "ok'ish" results in high pressure for most of the dps classes and they don't stand a chance to survive that long even with druid and chrono. So yeah, if you phase Siax fast it's way more relaxing. I can totally understand pointing the fingers on low dps peeps. Since DH isn't very good any longer I'm still managing to do enough dps to not getting into trouble with my groups. The player you describe here must be a terrible part of the team.
    Same goes for Ensolyss, the less dps the more mechanics you have to play. If you also have no vigor it'll become a pain in the xxx for glass cannons and the possibility for errors and chain reactions are highly increased, especially before the 2nd cap phase. (Btw. if the team can't even manage the first they are all unskilled players). I also expect a low dps players to be good on mechanics then so he should be able to finish the cap phase.

    Last but not least I don't know what groups you are playing with. I barely have someone going tilt mode or blaming others in CMs. People in my runs (100 KP+) are rather focused to get it done and they usually don't care about some dps differences between players. On the other hand if it is absolutely obvious that a player cannot carry his weight he will be called out to perform better or kicked. These are the rules and that's why I run high kp groups. I won't set any foot into beginner groups unless I want to teach friends or gildies because I have been in a lot of them and they definitely are not funny if you are able to bring bosses down properly.

    So, as I said: Declare your lfg right and don't use "T4 dailies" just to have an excuse that there are so many elitist players.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Defend it all you want but it's just hyperactive elitism and does nothing but pour toxic standards all over an otherwise casual game mode. I'm not arguing that it will or won't happen or that players shouldn't get used to, so spare yourselves some time. All I'm saying is: Be aware of the difference between vote kicking someone who is holding the party down substantially, and vote kicking someone based on blind elite meta discrimination.

    Again, I'm not defending it. But complaining still won't change a thing, even though you're generally right. There will always be those who think they understand the game by just knowing the meta. Actually understanding the game is obviously preferable, but you can't instill understanding in others. In general they simply don't care enough about the game to do that.

  • Rodrick.1942Rodrick.1942 Member ✭✭✭

    @Talindra.4958 said:
    I recommend u guys to turn DPs meter off in fractal and enjoy the run lol 😂😂
    You see fractal daily reset daily.. if everyday you have to get angry with the run then you better don't do it.. bad for health :p turn that dps meter off if you can't prevent urself from nosing how other play lol .. Try some meditation... Find ur inner peace.. amen

    I cant agree with you more.. But im afraid if we turn off dps meter , some of us might just quit gw2.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Defend it all you want but it's just hyperactive elitism and does nothing but pour toxic standards all over an otherwise casual game mode. I'm not arguing that it will or won't happen or that players shouldn't get used to, so spare yourselves some time. All I'm saying is: Be aware of the difference between vote kicking someone who is holding the party down substantially, and vote kicking someone based on blind elite meta discrimination.

    Again, I'm not defending it. But complaining still won't change a thing, even though you're generally right. There will always be those who think they understand the game by just knowing the meta. Actually understanding the game is obviously preferable, but you can't instill understanding in others. In general they simply don't care enough about the game to do that.

    Yeah it's become a ridiculous GW2 meme though. It's at the point where a player actually will be playing a meta build in fractals right. Then he swaps 1 or 2 utilities or a couple traits for the specific purpose of the specific fractal, then someone in the party will notice it and have to comment on it to the point of creating a discussion about "well... why are you using that?" as if it weren't completely obvious why the person had swapped off a normally listed utility for some other utility/trait that is widely useful in the given situation.

    I dunno man I hear what you're saying, just felt it was important for anyone crossing this forum to have a good read into gamer elitism at this point, if they take the time to do so. Kudos to everyone who has participated in this conversation.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2018

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

    Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:

    • T4s are not difficult content.
    • Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
    • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health.
    • It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

    Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

    You know, playing however you want is nice and good. Until you need to enter instanced, group content. Even then, you can play however you like, unless you detract from the group's success. And once you detract from the group's success, that playstyle of yours come into play. Now, I am by no means an elitist, mind you. I dont need a chronomancer on every run, nor a full heal druid with permaboon stacking. But if you bring a condi reaper as dps with staff as one weapon, or mix of soldier+cleric dps engi (with T4 heal+precisoon food) , or core guard as healer, while having to spend 45minutes for chaos fractal (this happened to me yesterday),well,that keeps ME from succeeding. And i like to succeed. Therefore, your fun detracts from the whole group. So, it is natural for the group to kick the "i play how i want" fella, instead of the dude who at least gets the theorycrafting, and tries to apply it.

    Right there, there it is, a prime example of precisely why I wrote this thread to begin with.

    1. You say that playing however you want is good UNTIL you enter group content. This suggests raid elitism.
    2. You begin talking about "detracting from the group's success" as if no custom build could possibly be a successful build.
    3. You say you are not an elitist, but I think you should watch this video
    4. You go in to describe "soldier/cleric dps engis" as if by "custom build" we mean "running bad builds". This also suggests that you assume all custom builds are running completely improper setups and that some literal "Fractal God" who has complete all raids multiple times with his group, posting record times on youtube, could not possibly run an effective custom build.
    5. You keep talking about "your success", in the purpose of responding to my post. I already stated in my post, that players simply need to properly post in the LFG. If you want a turbo maximum DPS group, label it as such. If you don't, players will join with builds that you don't approve of and they shouldn't be kicked out of a party through blind discrimination, before seeing if they are actually effective.

    Look, there isn't anything wrong with elitism. I feel elitism is actually important to a degree within any community. The problem occurs when plebs begin acting with elite attitudes, who are not elite at all. This serves only to create large amounts of misinformation, unnecessary discrimination, and derails the entire purpose of actual elitism, which is sound leadership and example set. Have you ever wondered why metas flip so frequently even when there is no new patching? Maybe it is because some guy, who was part of a truly elite group, decided to run an off meta build one day, and discovered it was better than the current listed meta. Now reread that carefully "the current listed meta." Yes, that means it is currently identified as the best tactic. It does not mean that is actually the best tactic or the only tactic. It also means that some one source identified this tactic and listed it for you on a website. Some one raid group discovered this and that information was given to a widely acknowledged source of information. Again, it does not mean that it is actually the best, most practical or only tactic. It is a great tactic, that's for sure, but it is not the only.

    In other words, the next time you want to blindly discriminant against a player who isn't running a perfect raid subgroup build, consider the above statements and ask yourself "Am I even elite?" "Do I have the right to act elite while I am copy/pasting someone else's build?" "If I had logged in on day 1 of HoT raid release and had to figure it out on my own with 9 other friends, would we have discovered the same method as the first listed raid meta? or would we have discovered something equally as potent, that simply didn't get listed on a website?" Think about that, really think about it.

    1. I apologize for wanting to succeed in what i do. I honestly do. You could very well wanna fail t4 for 3 hours straight, because its ok for you. Its not ok for me.I dont care if a meta grp clears t4in 25 mins and my non meta group does it in 35. I dont care if snowcrows weaver does 35k dps and our dps reve does 15k. Just do not suck. If that is elitism, man, I promise, your mentality is the elitism of casuals.

    I don't understand where you're finding all of this difficulty in fractals. Each day I quite seriously create "T4 Dailies" with no other listed requirement, and then I complete the dailies within 30 to 40 minutes without ever having a single fail or need to boot someone from a party. Sometimes with the right party, we can clear in 25 minutes'ish. Then I do a separate LFG for CMs "CMs Pots & Food", I take in every player regardless of team comp and begin play. If a player is struggling I take the time to teach them the fractal and 9/10 times we succeed after a simple 60s explanation of the CM. The only time I ever have to boot players is the truly rare occurrence that someone joins a T4 CM who is inexperienced with a completely inadequate build like you mentioned before, some cleric/soldier bunker, who is somehow still dying during the fractal. If the party can't pull his weight, then we have to boot, but usually people just let these guys tag along and we finish the fractal anyway, not a big deal.

    I just don't understand where player are finding such difficulty in fractals where, if they don't put together perfect raid subgroup metas, they wipe over and over and can't succeed. Like... most of the T4 content is solo'able, outside of things like "stand on 2 panels while 1 person gets on mechanism".

    Yeah, i mean, there have been situations where kicks were afforded but that's like a 10% deal probably.
    It's a statement of how much you slack if one gets constantly kicked.

    But i don't agree with your last paragraph. Sure most are soloed, but the speed at which you solo a Fractal, or the speed at which people will do a fractal while carrying one or more poor players, is very different than the speed you'll do it with a good group. And a lot of people simply don't have that time to afford to other people slacking off..

    Also, i doubt anyone will tell you you need a raid sub-group for Fractals, especially if they're really elitists, since Raids will usually put some emphasis on Condi damage, for Fractals, usually really meta elitist CM speed runner groups will ask for power builds almost exclusively.

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Defend it all you want but it's just hyperactive elitism and does nothing but pour toxic standards all over an otherwise casual game mode. I'm not arguing that it will or won't happen or that players shouldn't get used to, so spare yourselves some time. All I'm saying is: Be aware of the difference between vote kicking someone who is holding the party down substantially, and vote kicking someone based on blind elite meta discrimination.

    Again, I'm not defending it. But complaining still won't change a thing, even though you're generally right. There will always be those who think they understand the game by just knowing the meta. Actually understanding the game is obviously preferable, but you can't instill understanding in others. In general they simply don't care enough about the game to do that.

    Yeah it's become a ridiculous GW2 meme though. It's at the point where a player actually will be playing a meta build in fractals right. Then he swaps 1 or 2 utilities or a couple traits for the specific purpose of the specific fractal, then someone in the party will notice it and have to comment on it to the point of creating a discussion about "well... why are you using that?" as if it weren't completely obvious why the person had swapped off a normally listed utility for some other utility/trait that is widely useful in the given situation.

    I dunno man I hear what you're saying, just felt it was important for anyone crossing this forum to have a good read into gamer elitism at this point, if they take the time to do so. Kudos to everyone who has participated in this conversation.

    I'm as Elitist as the next guy, and i never have or seen someone comment when a person adjusts their build for a fractal, me personally, i'll switch around one or two utilities for a lot of fractals. For example if i'm playing Mesmer in Aeitherblade, i'll usually slot in blink and portal for the traps section since it allows you to skip most of it, i'll use portal a lot for swamp. I usually have Feedback equipped on the Ice Elemental in Snowblind, etc.

    On Guardian i'll usually take Hallowed Ground for Ensolyss' last section to avoid getting ping-ponged around by the Krait, will also sometimes slot in "stand your ground" for the Aetherblade boss to avoid people getting pulled through the lasers, etc.

    If anything it's more likely that people will question why others aren't adapting their utilities to the encounter than criticize them for doing so. Unless of course one's doing really dumb swaps that have no use for that fractal, but that's not questioning breaking the meta, just the dumb swaps.
    In fact, often meta guides will include a list of skills that should be used per class to adapt to each encounter.

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Defend it all you want but it's just hyperactive elitism and does nothing but pour toxic standards all over an otherwise casual game mode. I'm not arguing that it will or won't happen or that players shouldn't get used to, so spare yourselves some time. All I'm saying is: Be aware of the difference between vote kicking someone who is holding the party down substantially, and vote kicking someone based on blind elite meta discrimination.

    Again, I'm not defending it. But complaining still won't change a thing, even though you're generally right. There will always be those who think they understand the game by just knowing the meta. Actually understanding the game is obviously preferable, but you can't instill understanding in others. In general they simply don't care enough about the game to do that.

    Yeah it's become a ridiculous GW2 meme though. It's at the point where a player actually will be playing a meta build in fractals right. Then he swaps 1 or 2 utilities or a couple traits for the specific purpose of the specific fractal, then someone in the party will notice it and have to comment on it to the point of creating a discussion about "well... why are you using that?" as if it weren't completely obvious why the person had swapped off a normally listed utility for some other utility/trait that is widely useful in the given situation.

    I dunno man I hear what you're saying, just felt it was important for anyone crossing this forum to have a good read into gamer elitism at this point, if they take the time to do so. Kudos to everyone who has participated in this conversation.

    The stupid meta idea(with its fancy benchmarks) has to die both in t4 and raids so all can play how they want no matter performance . For how others play is not anyone else bussnies

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    IS it so hard to not enter meta lfgs? I mean, you all could make your own lfg "chill run". Does a toxic fella join? Explain to him its a chill run, if he continues being toxic, kick him. WHy do you have to make your lives harder?

    Well that's the problem, players join one listed as "T4 Dailies" with no other label and then still find players being elitist in those runs. I mentioned much earlier in this thread how this would begin to happen, and I was right. The general expectation of a player in T4 fractals has become "running raid subgroup builds". Most players agree on this to the point of it being so casual, they don't list that requirement in the LFG. Again I'll state how unnecessary of a discrimination this is. Few reasons why:

    • T4s are not difficult content.
    • Raid builds aren't even the meta for T4/CM fractals. It has its own meta.
    • In raids, if 1 or 2 wipe, they all wipe, so we can see the purpose behind running glass cannon dps specs that rely on a single powerful healer. However in fractals, 4 players could wipe and a single custom build that has 10% to 15% cut from its expected arc dps benchmark to front twice the sustain factor, can be capable of finishing a boss fight solo and saving the group time /gging from the top of some health bar. <- So stop complaining about off meta builds when some guy solos ark for you, when the boss is bellow 10% health. <- And that is exactly why he is running a bellow average dps build to begin with, so he can carry parties when they wipe in such situations to save time, rather than be forced to /gg and waste time from a 100% health bar, with a party that will likely wipe again.
    • It's fractals. More experienced players who are tired of running only raid meta, PURPOSELY design custom builds for fun/something different, when they run fractals. Relax and enjoy the more casual than raid content.

    Players need to properly label their LFGs and remember that custom builds does not always = bad player. Judge players by performance and not blind discrimination.

    My solution remove boonsharing and ability to kick if you start instance you stay there until its finished same for raids and also make benchmarks forbidden my soldier renegade is better than any mirage ore weaver no one has just given it a chance this would enforce the idea of no meta builds wich is better.

    Your damage is always going to be worse with a bad stat combination, you can't argue against that lol Soldier is 2 tank 1 damage stats compared to having 3 damage stats, that's trolling when you're supposed to deal damage and there is no way around it.

    Doesn't mean you're not allowed to play it, but don't call your damage good if your only way of not getting kicked out of groups is hiding the damage you deal lmao

    Very passive aggressively chuckling, because I'm totally not mad on the Internet.

  • Jasonbdj.4021Jasonbdj.4021 Member ✭✭✭

    People perform much better playing what they enjoy which can out-perform someone who just follows the meta religion following step by step rotations .... FUN!

    But we all know the meta religion system and the ppl who follow it will never change sadly.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:

    @Jasonbdj.4021 said:
    People perform much better playing what they enjoy which can out-perform someone who just follows the meta religion following step by step rotations .... FUN!

    On a high skill level, meta builds will always outperform anything else. On lower levels, that may no longer be the case, but it will still take a thorough understanding of the class and a build that's probably not too far away from the meta builds if you want a decent performance.

    'decent' is relative. if you are enjoying a casual race you don't need a F1 car to have fun, in fact its uncomfortable.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Jasonbdj.4021Jasonbdj.4021 Member ✭✭✭

    Yes usually high skill level will perform better using meta build. However if the person is not enjoying the build (why are you wasting time playing something you are not even enjoying, its not paying your bills lol) usually wont reach its full potential with more careless actions.

    Meta is created from ppl's creation who share their build that they enjoy playing afterall.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jasonbdj.4021 said:
    Yes usually high skill level will perform better using meta build. However if the person is not enjoying the build (why are you wasting time playing something you are not even enjoying, its not paying your bills lol) usually wont reach its full potential with more careless actions.

    Meta is created from ppl's creation who share their build that they enjoy playing afterall.

    That's technically true, but in reality a sensible and well played off-meta build will likely be accepted more often than not. The things that will be straight out kicked are those that are straight out bad. And no, you can't be reasonably efficient on a bad build. You have every right to not trust me and figure that on your own, but I have every right to not be a part of that process.

  • Jasonbdj.4021Jasonbdj.4021 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Jasonbdj.4021 said:
    Yes usually high skill level will perform better using meta build. However if the person is not enjoying the build (why are you wasting time playing something you are not even enjoying, its not paying your bills lol) usually wont reach its full potential with more careless actions.

    Meta is created from ppl's creation who share their build that they enjoy playing afterall.

    That's technically true, but in reality a sensible and well played off-meta build will likely be accepted more often than not. The things that will be straight out kicked are those that are straight out bad. And no, you can't be reasonably efficient on a bad build. You have every right to not trust me and figure that on your own, but I have every right to not be a part of that process.

    I do understand your view, extremely useless bad builds do exist, reason why raids is so stricted as its quite easily access by newbies with silly builds. But fractals at T4 people should have the experience to know what is useless and whats not.

    Been in non-meta groups which have been smoother and faster runs than the meta groups lol.

    I see both bad and good points from both sides (do fractals daily and done some raids) but I dont agree on meta restrictions in T4 fractals (ppl can be carried in raids and farm LI in escort so sadly i do agree on meta restrictions there).

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    You guys keep referencing off-meta builds as always being: "soldier's" "cleric's", that's an extreme embellishment concerning the discussion in this thread. When we are referencing off-meta builds, we are talking still running DPS gear of course, but maybe using a different weapon or slight variation in traits/utilities from what is listed on a site. No one is saying "it's ok to run cleric's warrior in T4 fractals".

    So we're talking about stuff like no-kit sword holo vs the rifle meta build, for example.

    Praise delta!

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    You guys keep referencing off-meta builds as always being: "soldier's" "cleric's", that's an extreme embellishment concerning the discussion in this thread. When we are referencing off-meta builds, we are talking still running DPS gear of course, but maybe using a different weapon or slight variation in traits/utilities from what is listed on a site. No one is saying "it's ok to run cleric's warrior in T4 fractals".

    Swapping an utility skill or even a trait is not off-meta.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2018

    @Vinceman.4572 Oh really? At what exact point does something become off meta?

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jasonbdj.4021 said:
    I do understand your view, extremely useless bad builds do exist, reason why raids is so stricted as its quite easily access by newbies with silly builds. But fractals at T4 people should have the experience to know what is useless and whats not.

    People should have that experience, but reality clearly indicates that's not the case. In the most extreme cases (happening every now and then), I battle presumed dps players with my magi/harrier/minstrel heal druid. Those cases do not happen too often, but in T4 pugs with no special requirements, it's standard that one or two "dps" will do something like 3-4k in situations where a good player hits 10-15k.

    Praise delta!

  • Jasonbdj.4021Jasonbdj.4021 Member ✭✭✭

    People running meta can also achieve low dps, roughly the same chance of a bad run as in off-meta group.

    The way i see -

    Meta - high skill - enjoyment = flawless

    Off meta but reasonable - high skill - enjoyment = great but are kicked anyways due to not following meta religion.

    Meta - low skill - bored and careless = poor performance/dead weight to the group, usually can be out-performed by above. Half of ppl are at this level on board on the easy train.

    Off meta - low skill - bored and careless = the worst but are quite rare in T4.

    Fractal really isnt that hard with no long boss fights as raids.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xantaria.8726 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Vinceman.4572 Oh really? At what exact point does something become off meta?

    In theory if you swap something out which leads no longer to the best possible result. However, since we have so many “meta-builds“ right now, what skills you should bring in a meta-group highly depends on the classes and builds in your group and the encounter.

    Though i find this discussion rather pointless, instead of pointing fingers at those which rather enjoy metagroups, the main problem is once again that people (and yeah also metaplayers, its a commen sickness in this game) are to lazy/stupid to make proper lfgs or read them, and that fractalgroups also need a partyleaderfunction.

    Nobody has the right to say how someone has to play( for meta, semimeta, off-meta or whatever someone calls his style^^). But also noone has the right to say who i have to play with. If i rather enjoy a full meta group and i join/create such a group (and in theory kick all non-meta builds), well then people have to accept it. Such as i have to accept that a t4 chilled run group is not a meta group and that i shouldbe kicked if i start flaming in there.

    Are there good off-meta builds? Of course, many even were once meta before they got nerfed or further developed. I dont even have a problem with them in my meta-group, as long as i have a support-chrono in the group and dps-players dont fight with the chrono about their dps-position (~4k).

    You will always have black sheeps though, but just as there are “toxic elitistic metaplayers“, there are also “toxic stubborn casuals“ who join our proper listed lfg which was looking for a support chrono, he joins in as a gs wielding core mesmer with no boons or dps at all (we started the frac instead of waiting until we were full) and kicked him after the first boss where we carried him through after he ignored our request that he should pls play what we were looking for or leave, resulting in multiple whispers to us what he thinks about us.

    I can agree with that.

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2018

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Raid Elitism has been slowly but surely seeping into fractals for quite some time now. Each day, there are more and more LFGs posted with descriptions such as: "Need Chrono - Need Heal Druid". These LFGs are in attempts to form 5 man raid meta teams, for fractals. I assume this is happening because of these reasons:

    • Players can't or don't want to afford multiple setups on most characters. For the purpose of saving resources, they gear for raids because it is the most difficult content.

    Could you be clearer please? Are you saying that players should run hybrid dps + survivability build instead of full dps build, or that no-one take the time to get slaying potion which gives +10% increase damage and -10% receive damage for each encounter, which would decrease their chance of wiping?

    • Raid builds are designed to support each other and all DPS oriented raid builds require a healing druid. They have to bring in that healing druid.

    I wouldn't say they have to bring that healing druid, but more that Anet made it almost necessary to bring a healing druid for obvious reason. 25 might, protection, fury, regeneration and vigor, without forgetting the 100 precision +5+10% damage modifier.

    • Since the raid DPS and heal druid are present, players figure they may as well LFG for the chrono.

    Are you saying that LFG The only viable source of 100% quickness + 100% alacrity is a bad idea?

    My question is: Why are so many players only running raid builds nowadays? Well it may be due to these reasons:

    • Players just copy/paste whatever they see on the current meta-build websites they visit.
    • Players learn only that one build that they copy/paste from a meta-build website.
    • Players believe that one build is the end all be all and any deviation from that listed build would mean they are a bad player..
    • Players fail to understand that raid builds are designed for 10 man teams vs. raid AI single target bosses and that fractal AI and mobs function completely differently.

    I would say that those build as demonstrated by top-tier player have the most damage output.
    But I do agree that fractals aren't raid and that looking at raid build is wrong in itself. Gear are poorly optimised for Fractals and skill priority due to extremely short fight may differ.
    I would say that looking at Fractals Guild Guide such as Discretize would be much more fitted.

    If a group was running 99 and 100 CMs, I get it. It's nice to use the rehearsed raid meta and it does work well in CMs. But for general T4 daily completion, the expectation of pulling raid meta team comps is beginning to cause very unnecessary problems:

    • People being way too picky while forming teams before actually starting the fractal. T4s are something that can be completed in about 30 minutes on average if people who know what they are doing just group up and go do it. There is no reason to tag an extra 10 -20 minute wait time to form a raid meta team.
    • Groups full of raid DPSers who fail to pull a heal druid. They go in and are often unable to survive the random nature of fractal AI. It seems they fail to understand that having ultra high DPS means nothing if you can't stay alive long enough to use it. Frequently being in downstate is also a loss in DPS for the players who have to stop DPSing and go revive the downed player.

    What player and meta group are we talking about because I'm not sure that "Fractal God" player or 200+ kp groups would actually wipe without a Druid. It has actually become a common practice to pull a third Weaver instead of a Druid, if players are comfortable with it. It actually decrease fractal clear time by 20-30%.

    • Overly elitist attitude for a casual game mode that simply does not require raid elitism within a party to succeed. They'll kick & boot players because their ARCDPS tells them that a particular player isn't meeting raid standard DPS. Sometimes they kick & boot a player simply because his build was a deviant of a meta, regardless of the player's actual performance. The elitist attitude leads them to believe they are "making the party stronger" by booting out unidentified build structures. But ironically enough, the players they will rag on or boot from the party are often older fractal players who have adapted custom builds that might sacrifice 15% to 20% top DPS for the ability to carry bad groups in fractals. The kind of builds that are capable of solo'ing CM MAMA or finishing CM Ensolyss cap phase by itself if it has to, avoiding a boss fight reset and saving everyone time.

    Well if players actually pull 100% of the damage that they are supposed to do, you can skip mechanics. For Instance, with good DPS and instant CC you can avoid MAMA to spawn a "safe zone" that might get the add to run towards MAMA, while she is in invulnerable mode.

    Fractals are not raids.
    Stop being raid elitists in fractals.
    ~ There you have it. Someone needed to say it.

    Reading your post, I feel like you do have a certain knowledge of elitist group compared to normal fractal group, so I'm not sure I fully understand your point. What are you suggesting with this post? Is it that every player should be acceptable of every group and consequently WASTE THEIR OWN TIME being the better player adjusting themselves to best suit the need of the group?

    I'm sorry for being slightly aggressive in my response, but I think your post is extremely aggressive to what you call the 'elitist' community. Your assumption are not being backed up by any numbers and it seems like you fail to see what those core meta class actually bring to a group. And most of what you wrote seems aimed to make the elitist community look bad. I mean, this seems to go in both way, but what have elitist players done to you, for you to hate them so much?

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tim.4596

    I get elitist with raids and CMs because it is necessary. I do not get elitist with normal T4s because they are easy and it isn't necessary.

    That about sums it up, take from it what you will.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @tim.4596

    I get elitist with raids and CMs because it is necessary. I do not get elitist with normal T4s because they are easy and it isn't necessary.

    That about sums it up, take from it what you will.

    Depends on your the definition of neccessary which changes from person to person. Much like how a shovel isn't "neccessary" for getting snow out of your driveway, if the option is available, people certainly prefer it. I don't think anyone in this thread is under the delusion that fractals is literally impossible without a meta comp but it is still their perogative to spend 5 minutes less on content by being selective.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @tim.4596

    I get elitist with raids and CMs because it is necessary. I do not get elitist with normal T4s because they are easy and it isn't necessary.

    That about sums it up, take from it what you will.

    Depends on your the definition of neccessary which changes from person to person. Much like how a shovel isn't "neccessary" for getting snow out of your driveway, if the option is available, people certainly prefer it. I don't think anyone in this thread is under the delusion that fractals is literally impossible without a meta comp but it is still their perogative to spend 5 minutes less on content by being selective.

    I see your analogy but on the contrary, it would be unnecessary to purchase and own a nascar for driving to work in the morning, when a cheap cost efficient car will do.

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @tim.4596

    I get elitist with raids and CMs because it is necessary. I do not get elitist with normal T4s because they are easy and it isn't necessary.

    That about sums it up, take from it what you will.

    Depends on your the definition of neccessary which changes from person to person. Much like how a shovel isn't "neccessary" for getting snow out of your driveway, if the option is available, people certainly prefer it. I don't think anyone in this thread is under the delusion that fractals is literally impossible without a meta comp but it is still their perogative to spend 5 minutes less on content by being selective.

    I see your analogy but on the contrary, it would be unnecessary to purchase and own a nascar for driving to work in the morning, when a cheap cost efficient car will do.

    true, but if people want to do it, who are you to tell them no?

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2018

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @tim.4596

    I get elitist with raids and CMs because it is necessary. I do not get elitist with normal T4s because they are easy and it isn't necessary.

    That about sums it up, take from it what you will.

    Depends on your the definition of neccessary which changes from person to person. Much like how a shovel isn't "neccessary" for getting snow out of your driveway, if the option is available, people certainly prefer it. I don't think anyone in this thread is under the delusion that fractals is literally impossible without a meta comp but it is still their perogative to spend 5 minutes less on content by being selective.

    I see your analogy but on the contrary, it would be unnecessary to purchase and own a nascar for driving to work in the morning, when a cheap cost efficient car will do.

    The thing is, cheap, cost-efficient cars are boring. Racecars would be impractical, but a nice sportscar (or heck, even a supercar) would be so much more fun. It's pretty much the same in fractals.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @tim.4596

    I get elitist with raids and CMs because it is necessary. I do not get elitist with normal T4s because they are easy and it isn't necessary.

    That about sums it up, take from it what you will

    raids in its current form drive out this behaviour, fractals do not, so you adjust accordingly which is a good thing. Many raiders do not/cannot adapt and they cause needless drama. classic example being a fractal that needs say 10k dps, and a group does 20k with the meta doing say 40. going emo for meta there is unnecessary, but these players are addicted to numbers and speed looting not gameplay and it shows.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Moogri.1935Moogri.1935 Member ✭✭

    Simply just be a bit more specific on your lfg description. "T4s" are too vague. Add something like "chill run" and you'll drive away the kick happy elitists.

    People mentioning your off meta build might not be trying to be intentionally toxic though. Some could just wonder if you're inexperienced and desire to educate, or they might just be curious as to why you're running a certain build. You can just explain to them. Communication goes a long way.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2018

    @Moogri.1935 said:
    Simply just be a bit more specific on your lfg description. "T4s" are too vague. Add something like "chill run" and you'll drive away the kick happy elitists.

    People mentioning your off meta build might not be trying to be intentionally toxic though. Some could just wonder if you're inexperienced and desire to educate, or they might just be curious as to why you're running a certain build. You can just explain to them. Communication goes a long way.

    100% agree but it doesn't always run off the elitism, as mentioned much earlier in this thread.

    The other day I had joined a "chill run" listed just like that and there were two holosmiths in this run. One of them was running Rifle and the other Sword/Shield. the Sword/Shield Holo decided to take it upon himself to explain the meta to the Rifle Holo, in broken increments over the course of the 3x T4 dailies. The Rifle Holo didn't go down once, whilst the Sword/Shield Holo had gone done so many times by the end of the 3rd T4, that it was almost worth mentioning to him that he would actually be more useful to our team if he would have ran a defensive line and ditched some DPS. The Sword/Shield holo never responded to this guy even once, yet he kept talking, as if he weren't the one being repeatedly downed in situations where you don't even need sustain, like against the Ettin & Char Shaman boss in Uncatagorized. We decided to run recs with each other after the T4s, and that Holo just kept talking about meta until finally some other person said: "Just stop." And he did stop, it wasn't a problem in the end and this was a not run where anyone was vote kicked, but it was still a ridiculous situation where someone was deluded enough to attempt to preach to another player about the meta, when that player was clearly a better player and more important to the fractal's success than he was. <- It's this type of delusional inability to recognize when the elite player is the problem, and that a custom build and its player are doing well, that makes gamer elitism such an ill-flavored meme.

    I'll say it again, there isn't anything wrong with elitism, it has its real and important functions concerning leadership and example set, within any community. There is also a correct time & place for elitism when it matters, and bad timing for elitism when all it is doing is stirring up toxicity and making matters more complex than they need to be. An example of good elitism in pvp, in contrast to all of this pve discussion, is when I am forming an AT team meant to compete in the monthly later that month. I need to be rigid in my choices of players accepted for many reasons if we want a chance to seriously win a monthly AT. In this situation WE ALL will be rigid with our criticism towards each other and what could be done better. An example of bad elitism in pvp would be getting 5 guys around from a guild list, to complete some guild missions, who have absolutely no interest in playing pvp even semi seriously. I was lucky to get this 5 people to participate to begin with and although it is a good idea to suggest to them that they should read up on metabattle.com if they wanted to take the time to learn more about pvp builds, it is a bad idea to get critical and push it in this given situation, unless they also want to take it there.

    It all amounts down to properly labeling and joining runs, that reflect your own gaming expectations. I expect elitist attitude while joining a run labeled as such, but I do not expect elitist attitudes when joining a "chill run" or even a non-labeled run, which usually just have completely random team comps. A lot of players have posted in here, saying that it is the non-meta user's faults for not properly labeling their LFGs that "it is a chill run", but those type of players should also be labeling their LFGs as "META only". Seeing as how this entire debacle is centered around the idea of running meta or not, it is safe to say that players who see any LFG listing that doesn't mention "META only", will assume that if they are a good player, regardless of spec, they are welcome in that group.

    Inspired by a different thread about the difference between Druids and Healers, this is what I think the different appropriate LFG listings in fractals should look like:

    • T4 Dailies Practice/Training/Learning - This is an honest listing for a player who is approaching T4s for the first time or because he knows he just isn't up to par. Rather than trying to sneak into more experienced groups for a carry, he should properly label this LFG so that other players who are learning may join, and so veteran players who are actually willing to be patient with them, can see this and know this is a group who is actually asking for a veteran elitist to join, to tell them what they are doing wrong. I often opt to join groups like this, simply to help out. I don't mind taking the extra 15 minutes of my day to explain mechanics to newer players.
    • T4 Dailies Chill Run - These people don't want lessons in how to run the fractals or what is wrong with their builds. They just want other players who are non-discriminatory, to join with no expectations of an arc dps or some specific meta subgroup.
    • T4 Dailies Pots & Food - This the most ambiguous listing out of the four, and where most of the problems occur that caused me to write this thread to begin with. Some players see this listing and assume that because it doesn't say "Meta only" that means it is a Chill Run. Others see this and assume the because it doesn't say "Chill Run" or "Learning" or "All Welcome", that it is a meta standard LFG. So you get guys running Power Reapers in here, arguing why they shouldn't be vote kicked by Druids and Chronos who join, who want a Weaver. This particular third category of listing is THE listing that has driven the debate in this thread for 16k views and 15 pages. It is arguable whether the chill players who joined first, have the right to stay in a group here or if Chronos and Druids have the right to kick Power Reapers. In the end, this third category will always result in the majority opinion of the party, and there isn't anything that can really change that.
    • T4 Dailies Meta Dru/Chr/3xDPS - These are the players looking to optimize team comps and clear times, who have correctly labeled their LFGs. They have every right to elitist attitude after doing so and should be able to vote kick whoever they want. While joining a label like this, players know they are subjecting themselves to critique and meta judgements.

    After laying it all out like this, it seems to me that the problems are non-labeled LFGs and players not respecting labeled LFGs, that create the toxicity and ill repute of the gamer term "elitism." People need simply to properly label their LFGs and respect the labels of the LFGs they join.

  • Xantaria.8726Xantaria.8726 Member ✭✭✭

    100% agree but it doesn't always run off the elitism, as mentioned much earlier in this thread.

    The other day I had joined a "chill run" listed just like that and there were two holosmiths in this run. One of them was running Rifle and the other Sword/Shield. the Sword/Shield Holo decided to take it upon himself to explain the meta to the Rifle Holo, in broken increments over the course of the 3x T4 dailies. The Rifle Holo didn't go down once, whilst the Sword/Shield Holo had gone done so many times by the end of the 3rd T4, that it was almost worth mentioning to him that he would actually be more useful to our team if he would have ran a defensive line and ditched some DPS. The Sword/Shield holo never responded to this guy even once, yet he kept talking, as if he weren't the one being repeatedly downed in situations where you don't even need sustain, like against the Ettin & Char Shaman boss in Uncatagorized. We decided to run recs with each other after the T4s, and that Holo just kept talking about meta until finally some other person said: "Just stop." And he did stop, it wasn't a problem in the end and this was a not run where anyone was vote kicked, but it was still a ridiculous situation where someone was deluded enough to attempt to preach to another player about the meta, when that player was clearly a better player and more important to the fractal's success than he was. <- It's this type of delusional inability to recognize when the elite player is the problem, and that a custom build and its player are doing well, that makes gamer elitism such an ill-flavored meme.

    I'll say it again, there isn't anything wrong with elitism, it has its real and important functions concerning leadership and example set, within any community. There is also a correct time & place for elitism when it matters, and bad timing for elitism when all it is doing is stirring up toxicity and making matters more complex than they need to be. An example of good elitism in pvp, in contrast to all of this pve discussion, is when I am forming an AT team meant to compete in the monthly later that month. I need to be rigid in my choices of players accepted for many reasons if we want a chance to seriously win a monthly AT. In this situation WE ALL will be rigid with our criticism towards each other and what could be done better. An example of bad elitism in pvp would be getting 5 guys around from a guild list, to complete some guild missions, who have absolutely no interest in playing pvp even semi seriously. I was lucky to get this 5 people to participate to begin with and although it is a good idea to suggest to them that they should read up on metabattle.com if they wanted to take the time to learn more about pvp builds, it is a bad idea to get critical and push it in this given situation, unless they also want to take it there.

    It all amounts down to properly labeling and joining runs, that reflect your own gaming expectations. I expect elitist attitude while joining a run labeled as such, but I do not expect elitist attitudes when joining a "chill run" or even a non-labeled run, which usually just have completely random team comps. A lot of players have posted in here, saying that it is the non-meta user's faults for not properly labeling their LFGs that "it is a chill run", but those type of players should also be labeling their LFGs as "META only". Seeing as how this entire debacle is centered around the idea of running meta or not, it is safe to say that players who see any LFG listing that doesn't mention "META only", will assume that if they are a good player, regardless of spec, they are welcome in that group.

    Inspired by a different thread about the difference between Druids and Healers, this is what I think the different appropriate LFG listings in fractals should look like:

    • T4 Dailies Practice/Training/Learning - This is an honest listing for a player who is approaching T4s for the first time or because he knows he just isn't up to par. Rather than trying to sneak into more experienced groups for a carry, he should properly label this LFG so that other players who are learning may join, and so veteran players who are actually willing to be patient with them, can see this and know this is a group who is actually asking for a veteran elitist to join, to tell them what they are doing wrong. I often opt to join groups like this, simply to help out. I don't mind taking the extra 15 minutes of my day to explain mechanics to newer players.
    • T4 Dailies Chill Run - These people don't want lessons in how to run the fractals or what is wrong with their builds. They just want other players who are non-discriminatory, to join with no expectations of an arc dps or some specific meta subgroup.
    • T4 Dailies Pots & Food - This the most ambiguous listing out of the four, and where most of the problems occur that caused me to write this thread to begin with. Some players see this listing and assume that because it doesn't say "Meta only" that means it is a Chill Run. Others see this and assume the because it doesn't say "Chill Run" or "Learning" or "All Welcome", that it is a meta standard LFG. So you get guys running Power Reapers in here, arguing why they shouldn't be vote kicked by Druids and Chronos who join, who want a Weaver. This particular third category of listing is THE listing that has driven the debate in this thread for 16k views and 15 pages. It is arguable whether the chill players who joined first, have the right to stay in a group here or if Chronos and Druids have the right to kick Power Reapers. In the end, this third category will always result in the majority opinion of the party, and there isn't anything that can really change that.
    • T4 Dailies Meta Dru/Chr/3xDPS - These are the players looking to optimize team comps and clear times, who have correctly labeled their LFGs. They have every right to elitist attitude after doing so and should be able to vote kick whoever they want. While joining a label like this, players know they are subjecting themselves to critique and meta judgements.

    After laying it all out like this, it seems to me that the problems are non-labeled LFGs and players not respecting labeled LFGs, that create the toxicity and ill repute of the gamer term "elitism." People need simply to properly label their LFGs and respect the labels of the LFGs they join.

    I agree, even though i have more bad experiences with toxic casuals /s, but i know that there are also just as many toxic mrtaplayers (and lets be honest, its not only the other side who is very toxic, so pls dont point fingers at one direction).Its not like progressive mindsetting or casual mindsetting or anythimg between it is a problem, but rather the inability of others the write more then just t4, and others inability to read and respect specific lfgs. just as you said. And here it doesnt matter to which kind of playstyle anyone sees himself, cause in all of them exists more then enough players which do exactly that. Partly cause they dont know better, partly cause they dont care. :/
    But this was always a problem, even in other games.
    And i doubt that this illnes will disapper, so my advice to everyone: just put on a thicker skin, let black sheeps talk and go on, live is to short to waste it by going on and on what some random players behind a screen which you will only play once with did/said to you. So just see that you make a decent lfg, and if a troll joins kick him or block him. But dont blame thousands for sth that ~5-10% of those do.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Moogri.1935 said:
    Simply just be a bit more specific on your lfg description. "T4s" are too vague. Add something like "chill run" and you'll drive away the kick happy elitists.

    People mentioning your off meta build might not be trying to be intentionally toxic though. Some could just wonder if you're inexperienced and desire to educate, or they might just be curious as to why you're running a certain build. You can just explain to them. Communication goes a long way.

    100% agree but it doesn't always run off the elitism, as mentioned much earlier in this thread.

    That's just a fact of life, and it goes both ways. In other words, among so many players you're bound to stumble on some unpleasant persons from time to time. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't take measures to minimize the chances.

  • Fargas.6251Fargas.6251 Member ✭✭
    edited June 6, 2018

    I’m all for a comeback of trinity based pve content. I just wish each of the 9 classes could pull off all the roles like Anet originally promised, in a way that wouldn’t kitten off the meta sheep.

    Wait a moment, why did this thread come up? Unintentional Necro. My bad.

  • probably already mentioned previously in some form or another, but i think it's as simple as creating/joining a meta group if you want a meta group and creating/joining a casual group if you want a casual group. i do both based on current availability but i do prefer the metas for speed and success since my time to invest in gw2 can be limited sometimes. sometimes i have time to burn and just want a challenge so i'll join a party preferably with less skilled and/or less meta players.

    the real problem for me isn't even the toxic elitist players (since you can just leave [or kick if your party feels the same way you do])
    it's the idiots
    like the other day someone had a meta fractal party going on lfg.. two spots left and asking for druid and dps. i join as dps. no druid yet and then a few min later a condi soulbeast joins and the party starts the ready check. i didn't feel like hopping on to druid so instead of just leaving, i thought i'd be polite say that i'm leaving so they can find a druid to join. i leave, and then suddenly i get whispered a "blocked and reported" sort of thing.
    i figured it was just a misunderstanding so i sneakily join the same party on my druid and then the same guy says "finally someone who can read the lfg"
    it's not even toxicity or elitism... it's pure stupidity! drives me crazy

  • I can live with people settling for meta comps in the interest of efficiency. After all, one more druid and one less deadeye will make the run much smoother.

    All I want is 1) LFG tool showing specializations instead of cores, and 2) the ability to block out DPS meters altogether. I've had quite a few blind [email protected] call me out on my Firebrand for "low DPS" because I chose to keep their squishy kitten up after the healers had died. It's such a pointless pixel-kitten measuring contest that adds unnecessary stress.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Soggy Biscuit.9372 said:
    I can live with people settling for meta comps in the interest of efficiency. After all, one more druid and one less deadeye will make the run much smoother.

    All I want is 1) LFG tool showing specializations instead of cores, and 2) the ability to block out DPS meters altogether. I've had quite a few blind [email protected] call me out on my Firebrand for "low DPS" because I chose to keep their squishy kitten up after the healers had died. It's such a pointless pixel-kitten measuring contest that adds unnecessary stress.

    There are two sides to that coin. Sure, there's that. But there are also "dps" players who literally do the damage of the support. And not because they needed to save someone's sorry kitten. No, they're just doing something very, very wrong. If players are not able to see their performance, they'll resort to other measures - blaming the off-meta builds/classes, low AP numbers, etc. It won't really be an improvement in any way.

    So what I can recommend is simple - accept that there will always be jerks in an online game. And when you encounter some, ignore them.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2018

    @Soggy Biscuit.9372

    This truly will be my last post in this thread. It's time to let it die.

    I watched an interesting video that was posted yesterday in the pvp forum. It was talking about how game developers can identify that lowering toxicity is always a way to make sure everyone is having more fun. This does make me wonder if dps meters should be regarded as just as vile, just like a few "nameless" programs that we all know of. I bring it up because well frankly, it isn't too hard to spot with your own eyes and experience, who is a cleric warrior and who is a berserker warrior. I understand the utility of a dps meter within a mode like raids, but seriously using that in fractals, just results in toxicity and discrimination. In raids, it is an important tool to assess the low dps berserker warrior vs. the high dps berserker warrior. That loss in dps from the low dps berserker can make the difference between succeeding or failing, easily. In raiding, it is used as a functional and practical tool for the purpose of raw success rates. But in fractals, dps meters get used for unnecessary discrimination, that causes toxicity, that makes the game less enjoyable for everyone, including the developers. Let's face it, the difference between a lower dps berserker and a higher dps berserker in your T4 "non CM" daily fractal group, is about 2 or 3 minutes tops. As long as the guy is surviving, the fractals will be completed. Now if we are talking CMs, it gets a little more raidy, I understand that, but in NORMAL T4s, is the toxicity spread through the community worth the 2 minutes shaved off your completion time? Keep in mind that I am being reasonable here. I am not saying "Let the cleric warrior stay", that's ridiculous and the guy will have virtually no DPS at all, probably benchmarking at around 3k tops if ran on a dps spec. What I am talking about is the difference between that 33k dps and that 20k'ish dps between two players of similar quality.

    I get it, I understand it. DPS meters are great utilities in raids, for obvious reasons. Now I've said this before much earlier in this thread and I'll say it again: In fractals, dps meters are causing more problems in the long run than they are contributing anything useful, even for those elite players who are forming the perfect groups. Here is a general summary "through an example" of what I see happening NOW and what I foresee happening later, due to the use of dps meter elitism in casual game modes:

    • An LFG is posted "META Chr/Dru/3xDPS"
    • A group forms with the proper classes - Everyone has respected the posting of the LFG
    • Let's say the group is running a normal 99 first and they have no troubles until they reach Ensolyss
    • Group wipes first try. Then they wipe second try. It is happening due to the cap phase.
    • A Power DH in the group is getting frustrated because it is taking longer than he expected it to take. He goes to assess the situation and the problems that are preventing the group from finishing Ensolyss. He is a frequent raider and has been subject to the environment of dps meter judgements, for quite some time now. After awhile, this becomes normal, acceptable, and can create bias in the mind of the player who is trying to properly identify the problem within a group that is preventing it from completing said given content in other modes that are not raids. The Berserker in the party who has opted to take the defense line and change his utilities to defenses specifically for vs. Ensolyss' cap phases says: "lol what is the problem here?" then the Power DH, in his frustration replies with: "Well your low DPS isn't helping and you aren't even running banners for us." Right now, the bias has kicked in. The Power DH seriously believes that if the group had all full DPS characters that met benchmark standards, that it would be better because it wouldn't take so long to phase Ensolyss. He also firmly believes that the single Druid should be good enough to heal everyone even during that cap phase, and that there is no reason to not run full DPS, when you have a Druid that should be able to heal everyone all the time. Out of sheer frustration, he decides to vote kick the Berserker because it's dps is not to his standards, and then vote kicks the Druid because he felt it wasn't doing a good enough of a job carrying the entire party through an Ensolyss cap phase. Now, here is where the secondary bounced epi like bias comes in -> The two other players in the party are not elite raiders but they've been in there a few time and recently have started running T4 dailies every day. When they hear the elitist begin talking dps meter numbers, specifics about sacred raid builds that cannot be altered for these reasons of performance, ect.. ect.. there is this assumption and bias of excellence without question, that they view in the player who is indeed fronting noticeably large DPS, who seems to know what he is talking about. So more often than not, they go with it and vote kick the players being kicked. Another big reason they do this, is because they want to be cool with those players in hopes of finding a prestigious clique that can introduce them to a greater scheme of gaming. But is this true or is it simply a social inflection of assumption? Well what was true about this particular case example, is that the lower dps berserker who was vote kicked, was completing 2 nodes by himself on the cap phase, without needing to be healed by the Druid. The Druid was doing his best to heal the party instead of worrying about himself, which is why he couldn't cap a 2nd node after the other party members went down. The Power DH who initiated the vote kicks did not have a target to attack for healing or to trigger a trap heal, and for whatever reasons did not swap to a different heal for the purpose of Ensolyss. Then the other two players although they were meeting efficient benchmark standards in dps, weren't so good at Ensolyss cap phase mechanics. At the end of its all, we have the very hard truth that Ensolyss is not a dps check like Siax or Raid Boss Enrage. Ensolyss is a test of survival.
    • After the Berserker and Druid are kicked, the Power DH relabels an LFG with: "At Ensolyss Need GOOD Druid and 1 high DPS", whilst the Berserker and Druid are whispering each other and lol'ing at how they could have easily cleared Ensolyss on the 1st go if the other players had understood mechanics. At the worst it could have been completed on the 2nd go if the DH had swapped his heal and taken Renewed Focus, as well as the others stating for relatively better defenses, just for that one instance of vs. Ensolyss cap phase.
    • The immediate after effects - The Power DH and his group are frustrated and stressed out. The Power DH has allowed himself to point the finger, which causes conflict and just makes that frustrated feeling even worse. Then the Berserker and Druid have been screwed out of their time invested, when they weren't even the problem preventing the group from succeeding, which also is a burn out and sometimes makes a player just want to log out. But possibly the biggest problem in immediate after effects is that 3 of the players from this group "the majority" have even further solidified in their minds, the rites of the DPS meter check, regardless of and without any other stipulations attached to the judgement.
    • The long term effects - These players get used to the rites of the DPS meter check. it becomes and excuse or even an entitlement, in all situations, to bode an air of superiority over other players. Over the course of time, many of them begin to REALLY believe they are better than other players to the point that the comparison of player skill/knowledge vs. player skill/knowledge, turns into a comparison of my importance as a human vs. your importance as a human. <- Yes, some people take it too far. Lately, I run across more sheer toxicity like this, than I ever had in previous years playing Guild Wars 2. This long term effect of warping players standards reflects directly upon those who are being discriminated against. In the long term, when more and more players adopt the elite raid mentality in every game mode, there will be even more and more players who are discriminated against. Is it worth it for the community as a whole "including the elitists" in casual game modes? In the long term, when players are repeatedly being discriminated against, they stop having fun, they lose interest, and they start finding new games to play. This accelerates the decline of the game's population, not due to natural effects, but due to unnecessary levels of toxic judgement in casual game modes, that makes a game environment feel bad to play in.
    • What will happen in the end - This leads to the last effect that is something that the elitists never see coming, unless they are much older gamers who have already witnessed the life & deaths of other games. When the population keeps getting lower over the years, a few things are happening: (A) New players aren't coming in nearly as often. (B) Players are leaving because they are choosing w/e option it is that they have, that is providing more fun. (C) Directly related to B, Players who are treated like kitten all the time, will usually always leave the game. (D) Sometimes even "the good players" will get bored and leave, but they stay for a lot longer than any of the others, because they are praised and the game/community is granting them all of the feelings of "being elite". In fact, this feeling is something that is hard to come by. When buying a new game, a player must invest a great deal of time to learn and master it, especially with games as large and with as much content as something like Guild Wars 2. When they realize this, they want to STAY in that game where they have become one of the kings of the hill, because it is comfortable, feels great and it is addictive. (E) In direct relation to D, the final state of a game's population will inevitably be mostly comprised of only the elite hardcore players who have been playing for years and years, who for whatever reason chose to stay and play some MMO for a decade or two "They're still there in WoW" "They're still there in Everquest" "They're still there in Ultima Online" "They're even still there in GW1." Over the course of time with this effect, that elitist attitude that used to be used for purposes of "speeding up our runs by kicking bads" begins to show it's true nature, and that is "finding ways to be better in the comparison of others." So long after those bads and new players have left the game, only the hardcores and the elites remain. Yup you guessed it, then they begin to compare themselves to each other. Inevitably the lower end of the elites begin to get targeted for being not as good of players as the others. In the course of time, they end being the ones who are discriminated against. Not because they are BAD but because they aren't as good or maybe aren't "perfect" like some of the others have grown to be. The cycle... continues... Then when those players who were once recognized as amongst the higher tiered community, begin to be recognized as part of the lower tier remaining community, they lose that good comfortable feeling of praise and are no longer able to cash in on their addiction of feeling important or better than other players, which is a very large piece of what kept them around to begin with. Then... they also begin looking for new games to play. The cycle... continues... until there are so few people playing a game, that they all just leave because there aren't enough players to support practical play of any game mode within the game.

    The moral of the story is that: Elitism is great when it is necessary. It forms reliable leadership to look up to and goals to achieve. But Elitism used in environments when it is unnecessary, is a cannibalistic behavior that erodes a community until there is nothing left. In the case of gaming and Guild Wars 2, we can't stop the inevitable dying process of any game, but we can speed it up or slow it down. It is up to every individual player how they allow their personal actions to contribute to this process.

    ~ Just have to asks yourselves: "Is the personal 2 minute less clear time worth the long term effects of unnecessary toxicity?" And understand that "The line drawn between who is good and who is bad, is all relative to the size of the community and who is still there, playing that game."

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    2 minutes less cleartime is worth every toxicity. I play that content to be as efficient as possible and if my party is bad then I just leave. If party is toxic to me I leave. But It is interesting that you say how fractlas are soooo toxic yet I only met 2 players that were rude to me In fractals and I have benn playing them for 2 years.

    Looks like If you know what you are doing then noone is rude to you

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    2 minutes less cleartime is worth every toxicity. I play that content to be as efficient as possible and if my party is bad then I just leave. If party is toxic to me I leave. But It is interesting that you say how fractlas are soooo toxic yet I only met 2 players that were rude to me In fractals and I have benn playing them for 2 years.

    Looks like If you know what you are doing then noone is rude to you

    You seriously don't realise that your behaviour is one of the sources of toxicity? i.e emo quitting mid run because the group does not satisfy your personal needs, rather than playing to the strength of the group. Imagine if every player done that.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    2 minutes less cleartime is worth every toxicity. I play that content to be as efficient as possible and if my party is bad then I just leave. If party is toxic to me I leave. But It is interesting that you say how fractlas are soooo toxic yet I only met 2 players that were rude to me In fractals and I have benn playing them for 2 years.

    Looks like If you know what you are doing then noone is rude to you

    You seriously don't realise that your behaviour is one of the sources of toxicity? i.e emo quitting mid run because the group does not satisfy your personal needs, rather than playing to the strength of the group. Imagine if every player done that.

    How do you play to the strength of someone that's completely clueless, runs the wrong build and causes wipes?

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    2 minutes less cleartime is worth every toxicity. I play that content to be as efficient as possible and if my party is bad then I just leave. If party is toxic to me I leave. But It is interesting that you say how fractlas are soooo toxic yet I only met 2 players that were rude to me In fractals and I have benn playing them for 2 years.

    Looks like If you know what you are doing then noone is rude to you

    You seriously don't realise that your behaviour is one of the sources of toxicity? i.e emo quitting mid run because the group does not satisfy your personal needs, rather than playing to the strength of the group. Imagine if every player done that.

    How do you play to the strength of someone that's completely clueless, runs the wrong build and causes wipes?

    Exactly. I am not kicking anyone but I abandon MY progress. If anyone did that then I would be happy because after a while I would only meet good players. And players that are not good would be forced to learn. Toxicity is not a problem for me and it never was. I am playing league of legends for 8 years and I heared it is very toxic game. Truth is if you play well noone is going to be rude to you. And if someone is toxic i use mute button (league) or i leave party (gw). I want to have fun and if someone is toxic without reason then i will not deal with that.
    The only way i support toxicity is when someone use bad build or underperforms massively (dead all the time...). I take this as an insult because he either is too lazy to reserch and wants to get carried, thinks he is very good and dont need reserch or he knows how it should be done but dont want to do it that way for some stupid reason. And if he thinks he can get away with this he insults my intelect. And if someone insults me i strike back hard.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    2 minutes less cleartime is worth every toxicity. I play that content to be as efficient as possible and if my party is bad then I just leave. If party is toxic to me I leave. But It is interesting that you say how fractlas are soooo toxic yet I only met 2 players that were rude to me In fractals and I have benn playing them for 2 years.

    Looks like If you know what you are doing then noone is rude to you

    You seriously don't realise that your behaviour is one of the sources of toxicity? i.e emo quitting mid run because the group does not satisfy your personal needs, rather than playing to the strength of the group. Imagine if every player done that.

    How do you play to the strength of someone that's completely clueless, runs the wrong build and causes wipes?

    I see this all the time, weak players, clearly inexperienced players, players that have poor reactions, inappropriate builds etc and what I do frequently is adapt my build to compensate for the weakness (e.g il sometimes sneak more heal into my build) , its quite satisfying when the group wins through. I just see it as a weak part of a team, but its only the overall team that matters.

    This isn't restricted to gaming, the ability to compensate for others without drama is critical for business success, particularly in highly technical roles. For example I frequently work with technically weak offshore dev teams with low cognitive ability, and you learn to shape the team to maximise their exposure to work they are good at while slowly teaching them over time.

    In our project area we have a large posted on our wall with the words to the effect that you must always assume people are trying the best they can, and never a truer word said if you want a group to work to the best of its _current _ ability. The alternative? play the blame game? 'they are useless!' ultimately this is self defeating and destructive.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    2 minutes less cleartime is worth every toxicity. I play that content to be as efficient as possible and if my party is bad then I just leave. If party is toxic to me I leave. But It is interesting that you say how fractlas are soooo toxic yet I only met 2 players that were rude to me In fractals and I have benn playing them for 2 years.

    Looks like If you know what you are doing then noone is rude to you

    You seriously don't realise that your behaviour is one of the sources of toxicity? i.e emo quitting mid run because the group does not satisfy your personal needs, rather than playing to the strength of the group. Imagine if every player done that.

    How do you play to the strength of someone that's completely clueless, runs the wrong build and causes wipes?

    I see this all the time, weak players, clearly inexperienced players, players that have poor reactions, inappropriate builds etc and what I do frequently is adapt my build to compensate for the weakness (e.g il sometimes sneak more heal into my build) , its quite satisfying when the group wins through. I just see it as a weak part of a team, but its only the overall team that matters.

    This isn't restricted to gaming, the ability to compensate for others without drama is critical for business success, particularly in highly technical roles. For example I frequently work with technically weak offshore dev teams with low cognitive ability, and you learn to shape the team to maximise their exposure to work they are good at while slowly teaching them over time.

    In our project area we have a large posted on our wall with the words to the effect that you must always assume people are trying the best they can, and never a truer word said if you want a group to work to the best of its _current _ ability. The alternative? play the blame game? 'they are useless!' ultimately this is self defeating and destructive.

    Don't bring society and business into this. It is a game, we play it for fun, not to make money or to make the society better. If you find it fun to carry people, that's completely fine. It does not mean everyone would, or should, feel the same. It does not oblige people who do not find that fun to participate, either. I get greater satisfaction when the group performs well. So that's what I do. It's a personal choice and you can't blame people for choosing differently.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    2 minutes less cleartime is worth every toxicity. I play that content to be as efficient as possible and if my party is bad then I just leave. If party is toxic to me I leave. But It is interesting that you say how fractlas are soooo toxic yet I only met 2 players that were rude to me In fractals and I have benn playing them for 2 years.

    Looks like If you know what you are doing then noone is rude to you

    You seriously don't realise that your behaviour is one of the sources of toxicity? i.e emo quitting mid run because the group does not satisfy your personal needs, rather than playing to the strength of the group. Imagine if every player done that.

    How do you play to the strength of someone that's completely clueless, runs the wrong build and causes wipes?

    I see this all the time, weak players, clearly inexperienced players, players that have poor reactions, inappropriate builds etc and what I do frequently is adapt my build to compensate for the weakness (e.g il sometimes sneak more heal into my build) , its quite satisfying when the group wins through. I just see it as a weak part of a team, but its only the overall team that matters.

    This isn't restricted to gaming, the ability to compensate for others without drama is critical for business success, particularly in highly technical roles. For example I frequently work with technically weak offshore dev teams with low cognitive ability, and you learn to shape the team to maximise their exposure to work they are good at while slowly teaching them over time.

    In our project area we have a large posted on our wall with the words to the effect that you must always assume people are trying the best they can, and never a truer word said if you want a group to work to the best of its _current _ ability. The alternative? play the blame game? 'they are useless!' ultimately this is self defeating and destructive.

    Don't bring society and business into this. It is a game, we play it for fun, not to make money or to make the society better. If you find it fun to carry people, that's completely fine. It does not mean everyone would, or should, feel the same. It does not oblige people who do not find that fun to participate, either. I get greater satisfaction when the group performs well. So that's what I do. It's a personal choice and you can't blame people for choosing differently.

    i was talking about human behaviour, and what works for group dynamics - maybe look up what the word society actually means - it applies to mmorpg. So, yes you do need to carry people in life (and especially games) all the time - i'm assuming you are aware all people are different with different skill sets, and that means carrying people happens all the time whether you are aware of it or like it, so you can either go blind, or try to understand why groups tick, and why that emo crash just happened in your run.

    Have a read of this, it applies to everywhere including gaming. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-robbins/compassion_b_1164090.html

    to summarise:

    1.) Give people the benefit of the doubt
    2. Don’t take things personally
    3.) Look for the good.
    4.) Seek first to understand.
    5.) Be gentle with others (and especially with yourself).

    If a player don't get this, then they are probably contributing to the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.