Raid Elitism Happening In Fractals - Page 13 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raid Elitism Happening In Fractals

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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    This isn't restricted to gaming, the ability to compensate for others without drama is critical for business success, particularly in highly technical roles.

    This isn't about different developer teams, that need to work together on a project, but more like the exact same developer team, working inside the same room.
    It's like telling a member of the same team to "suck it up" and work harder to compensate for the lack of skill or laziness of their co-workers. While being paid the same.
    I can see a lot of issues with that.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    This isn't restricted to gaming, the ability to compensate for others without drama is critical for business success, particularly in highly technical roles.

    This isn't about different developer teams, that need to work together on a project, but more like the exact same developer team, working inside the same room.
    It's like telling a member of the same team to "suck it up" and work harder to compensate for the lack of skill or laziness of their co-workers. While being paid the same.
    I can see a lot of issues with that.

    well that's life and reality, developers in the same room do not in fact have the same skills, that's not how the profession works (e.g someone has high cognitive ability and may gravitate towards algorithms, someone else has a highly logical thought processes and may enjoy componentization and design patterns etc etc. Anyway, it was merely an example of a social grouping, so release the strawman. ps, telling someone else to 'suck it up' is a tell that they are inexperienced working in a group, and developers in a project group rarely get paid the same :)

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    and developers in a project group rarely get paid the same :)

    Which is why your example was flawed. Unless I'm mistaken all players in a group in Fractals, Raids, or any other content get the exact same rewards, RNGseus willing.

    It's like having 2 people peeling potatoes, 1 can peel 100 while the other one can peel 200 potatoes in the same time frame. For some obscure reason management never bothered to check why there is such a huge difference between the two, and at the same time give them the same salary.
    Now the restaurant they are working at needs 400 potatoes peeled, that's 100 more than they produce at this point. What would they do?
    A) Hire more people, this isn't practical in instances because there is a limit
    B1) Tell the guy that is already over-performing at 200 potatoes to "try more" to compensate for their lazy/less skillful colleague
    B2) Do B, but also give him extra salary as a bonus for his compensation, this isn't going to work in our example, you won't get more if you compensate for others
    C) Tell the guy that is not performing very well to get pointers from the other guy on how to improve, how hard can peeling potatoes even be?

    I'd choose C as the more fair and ethical solution, given how A and B2 aren't an option for us. B1 is probably the worst possible solution that only some absolute garbage employers would go for.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    2 minutes less cleartime is worth every toxicity. I play that content to be as efficient as possible and if my party is bad then I just leave. If party is toxic to me I leave. But It is interesting that you say how fractlas are soooo toxic yet I only met 2 players that were rude to me In fractals and I have benn playing them for 2 years.

    Looks like If you know what you are doing then noone is rude to you

    You seriously don't realise that your behaviour is one of the sources of toxicity? i.e emo quitting mid run because the group does not satisfy your personal needs, rather than playing to the strength of the group. Imagine if every player done that.

    How do you play to the strength of someone that's completely clueless, runs the wrong build and causes wipes?

    I see this all the time, weak players, clearly inexperienced players, players that have poor reactions, inappropriate builds etc and what I do frequently is adapt my build to compensate for the weakness (e.g il sometimes sneak more heal into my build) , its quite satisfying when the group wins through. I just see it as a weak part of a team, but its only the overall team that matters.

    This isn't restricted to gaming, the ability to compensate for others without drama is critical for business success, particularly in highly technical roles. For example I frequently work with technically weak offshore dev teams with low cognitive ability, and you learn to shape the team to maximise their exposure to work they are good at while slowly teaching them over time.

    In our project area we have a large posted on our wall with the words to the effect that you must always assume people are trying the best they can, and never a truer word said if you want a group to work to the best of its _current _ ability. The alternative? play the blame game? 'they are useless!' ultimately this is self defeating and destructive.

    Don't bring society and business into this. It is a game, we play it for fun, not to make money or to make the society better. If you find it fun to carry people, that's completely fine. It does not mean everyone would, or should, feel the same. It does not oblige people who do not find that fun to participate, either. I get greater satisfaction when the group performs well. So that's what I do. It's a personal choice and you can't blame people for choosing differently.

    i was talking about human behaviour, and what works for group dynamics - maybe look up what the word society actually means - it applies to mmorpg. So, yes you do need to carry people in life (and especially games) all the time - i'm assuming you are aware all people are different with different skill sets, and that means carrying people happens all the time whether you are aware of it or like it, so you can either go blind, or try to understand why groups tick, and why that emo crash just happened in your run.

    Have a read of this, it applies to everywhere including gaming. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-robbins/compassion_b_1164090.html

    to summarise:

    1.) Give people the benefit of the doubt
    2. Don’t take things personally
    3.) Look for the good.
    4.) Seek first to understand.
    5.) Be gentle with others (and especially with yourself).

    If a player don't get this, then they are probably contributing to the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg.

    So, have you sought first to understand what I told you? It is MY free time, it is MY decision how and with whom to spend it. I'll carry people if and when I feel like it, not when someone else feels like being carried. It. Is. My. Decision.

    No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    2 minutes less cleartime is worth every toxicity. I play that content to be as efficient as possible and if my party is bad then I just leave. If party is toxic to me I leave. But It is interesting that you say how fractlas are soooo toxic yet I only met 2 players that were rude to me In fractals and I have benn playing them for 2 years.

    Looks like If you know what you are doing then noone is rude to you

    You seriously don't realise that your behaviour is one of the sources of toxicity? i.e emo quitting mid run because the group does not satisfy your personal needs, rather than playing to the strength of the group. Imagine if every player done that.

    How do you play to the strength of someone that's completely clueless, runs the wrong build and causes wipes?

    I see this all the time, weak players, clearly inexperienced players, players that have poor reactions, inappropriate builds etc and what I do frequently is adapt my build to compensate for the weakness (e.g il sometimes sneak more heal into my build) , its quite satisfying when the group wins through. I just see it as a weak part of a team, but its only the overall team that matters.

    This isn't restricted to gaming, the ability to compensate for others without drama is critical for business success, particularly in highly technical roles. For example I frequently work with technically weak offshore dev teams with low cognitive ability, and you learn to shape the team to maximise their exposure to work they are good at while slowly teaching them over time.

    In our project area we have a large posted on our wall with the words to the effect that you must always assume people are trying the best they can, and never a truer word said if you want a group to work to the best of its _current _ ability. The alternative? play the blame game? 'they are useless!' ultimately this is self defeating and destructive.

    Don't bring society and business into this. It is a game, we play it for fun, not to make money or to make the society better. If you find it fun to carry people, that's completely fine. It does not mean everyone would, or should, feel the same. It does not oblige people who do not find that fun to participate, either. I get greater satisfaction when the group performs well. So that's what I do. It's a personal choice and you can't blame people for choosing differently.

    i was talking about human behaviour, and what works for group dynamics - maybe look up what the word society actually means - it applies to mmorpg. So, yes you do need to carry people in life (and especially games) all the time - i'm assuming you are aware all people are different with different skill sets, and that means carrying people happens all the time whether you are aware of it or like it, so you can either go blind, or try to understand why groups tick, and why that emo crash just happened in your run.

    Have a read of this, it applies to everywhere including gaming. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-robbins/compassion_b_1164090.html

    to summarise:

    1.) Give people the benefit of the doubt
    2. Don’t take things personally
    3.) Look for the good.
    4.) Seek first to understand.
    5.) Be gentle with others (and especially with yourself).

    If a player don't get this, then they are probably contributing to the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg.

    So, have you sought first to understand what I told you? It is MY free time, it is MY decision how and with whom to spend it. I'll carry people if and when I feel like it, not when someone else feels like being carried. It. Is. My. Decision.

    No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

    I am adapting. Whenever I find a conflict in expectations, I walk away and find players who want the same as me.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    2 minutes less cleartime is worth every toxicity. I play that content to be as efficient as possible and if my party is bad then I just leave. If party is toxic to me I leave. But It is interesting that you say how fractlas are soooo toxic yet I only met 2 players that were rude to me In fractals and I have benn playing them for 2 years.

    Looks like If you know what you are doing then noone is rude to you

    You seriously don't realise that your behaviour is one of the sources of toxicity? i.e emo quitting mid run because the group does not satisfy your personal needs, rather than playing to the strength of the group. Imagine if every player done that.

    How do you play to the strength of someone that's completely clueless, runs the wrong build and causes wipes?

    I see this all the time, weak players, clearly inexperienced players, players that have poor reactions, inappropriate builds etc and what I do frequently is adapt my build to compensate for the weakness (e.g il sometimes sneak more heal into my build) , its quite satisfying when the group wins through. I just see it as a weak part of a team, but its only the overall team that matters.

    This isn't restricted to gaming, the ability to compensate for others without drama is critical for business success, particularly in highly technical roles. For example I frequently work with technically weak offshore dev teams with low cognitive ability, and you learn to shape the team to maximise their exposure to work they are good at while slowly teaching them over time.

    In our project area we have a large posted on our wall with the words to the effect that you must always assume people are trying the best they can, and never a truer word said if you want a group to work to the best of its _current _ ability. The alternative? play the blame game? 'they are useless!' ultimately this is self defeating and destructive.

    Don't bring society and business into this. It is a game, we play it for fun, not to make money or to make the society better. If you find it fun to carry people, that's completely fine. It does not mean everyone would, or should, feel the same. It does not oblige people who do not find that fun to participate, either. I get greater satisfaction when the group performs well. So that's what I do. It's a personal choice and you can't blame people for choosing differently.

    i was talking about human behaviour, and what works for group dynamics - maybe look up what the word society actually means - it applies to mmorpg. So, yes you do need to carry people in life (and especially games) all the time - i'm assuming you are aware all people are different with different skill sets, and that means carrying people happens all the time whether you are aware of it or like it, so you can either go blind, or try to understand why groups tick, and why that emo crash just happened in your run.

    Have a read of this, it applies to everywhere including gaming. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-robbins/compassion_b_1164090.html

    to summarise:

    1.) Give people the benefit of the doubt
    2. Don’t take things personally
    3.) Look for the good.
    4.) Seek first to understand.
    5.) Be gentle with others (and especially with yourself).

    If a player don't get this, then they are probably contributing to the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg.

    So, have you sought first to understand what I told you? It is MY free time, it is MY decision how and with whom to spend it. I'll carry people if and when I feel like it, not when someone else feels like being carried. It. Is. My. Decision.

    No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

    I am adapting. Whenever I find a conflict in expectations, I walk away and find players who want the same as me.

    That's not adapting, thats not being able to commit and stropping off and leaving 4 other people in the lurch. In fact it demonstrates an inability to adapt.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

    I think every player alone can decide if their own objective and perspective is more important or not. The way YOU say other player's isn't important and they are just automatons, tools to allow others to get what they want. Who is the selfish here?

    well when you are in a group you can either be selfish, or be part of the group.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

    I think every player alone can decide if their own objective and perspective is more important or not. The way YOU say other player's isn't important and they are just automatons, tools to allow others to get what they want. Who is the selfish here?

    well when you are in a group you can either be selfish, or be part of the group.

    So they are more important than I am? Who is the one to notice which player is more important than others?

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

    I think every player alone can decide if their own objective and perspective is more important or not. The way YOU say other player's isn't important and they are just automatons, tools to allow others to get what they want. Who is the selfish here?

    well when you are in a group you can either be selfish, or be part of the group.

    So they are more important than I am? Who is the one to notice which player is more important than others?

    are you for real? all 5 are important as each other no?

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

    I think every player alone can decide if their own objective and perspective is more important or not. The way YOU say other player's isn't important and they are just automatons, tools to allow others to get what they want. Who is the selfish here?

    well when you are in a group you can either be selfish, or be part of the group.

    So they are more important than I am? Who is the one to notice which player is more important than others?

    are you for real? all 5 are important as each other no?

    And that's precisely why the other 4 have no right to make any demands of me. If I feel like it, I'll stay. If I don't, I won't. And no matter what I choose, I'll be right to do it. Simple as that.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

    I think every player alone can decide if their own objective and perspective is more important or not. The way YOU say other player's isn't important and they are just automatons, tools to allow others to get what they want. Who is the selfish here?

    well when you are in a group you can either be selfish, or be part of the group.

    So they are more important than I am? Who is the one to notice which player is more important than others?

    are you for real? all 5 are important as each other no?

    And that's precisely why the other 4 have no right to make any demands of me. If I feel like it, I'll stay. If I don't, I won't. And no matter what I choose, I'll be right to do it. Simple as that.

    im not demanding anything, i'm saying all 5 have equal rights, so be part of the group, oir be selfish, your choice.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

    I think every player alone can decide if their own objective and perspective is more important or not. The way YOU say other player's isn't important and they are just automatons, tools to allow others to get what they want. Who is the selfish here?

    well when you are in a group you can either be selfish, or be part of the group.

    So they are more important than I am? Who is the one to notice which player is more important than others?

    are you for real? all 5 are important as each other no?

    What you said:
    First that some of the players:

    they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure

    but some of them need to adapt and carry the others:

    and what I do frequently is adapt my build to compensate for the weakness

    Even if compensating is against their "own objectives and perspective on pleasure"
    So basically you want some of the players to be the "automatons" and compensate for the others, disregarding completely their own objective and perspective.
    Which one is more important and who decides?

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

    I think every player alone can decide if their own objective and perspective is more important or not. The way YOU say other player's isn't important and they are just automatons, tools to allow others to get what they want. Who is the selfish here?

    well when you are in a group you can either be selfish, or be part of the group.

    So they are more important than I am? Who is the one to notice which player is more important than others?

    are you for real? all 5 are important as each other no?

    What you said:
    First that some of the players:

    they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure

    but some of them need to adapt and carry the others:

    and what I do frequently is adapt my build to compensate for the weakness

    Even if compensating is against their "own objectives and perspective on pleasure"
    So basically you want some of the players to be the "automatons" and compensate for the others, disregarding completely their own objective and perspective.
    Which one is more important and who decides?

    5 people in a group, either be selfish or be part of the group, you can obfuscate this as much as you like with argument, but this is what it boils down to and what i'm referring to.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2018

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    5 people in a group, either be selfish or be part of the group, you can obfuscate this as much as you like with argument, but this is what it boils down to and what i'm referring to.

    The selfish one is the one that joined a group when he shouldn't
    If it reaches a point when someone needs to leave the group, it's not their fault but of some selfish person who joined the group with the intention of getting carried.
    Usually by not being honest but selfish and greedy.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    5 people in a group, either be selfish or be part of the group, you can obfuscate this as much as you like with argument, but this is what it boils down to and what i'm referring to.

    The selfish one is the one that joined when he shouldn't
    If it reaches a point when someone needs to leave the group, it's not their fault but of some selfish person who joined the group with the intention of getting carried.
    Usually by not being honest but selfish and greedy.

    now your referring to anecdote.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    No you are mistaken, you are playing with a group of 4 other a REAL people, the context here is a mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Those other REAL people also have their own objectives and perspective on pleasure that are just as important as yours. they are not automatons there to be just they way you want to be to give you pleasure. So like it or not you need to adapt as do the other people, this is civilisation in action. And this is why good players adapt and support, because otherwise your just being selfish and ultimately destructive - i.e the anti social problem plaguing mmorpg. Adapt and have fun, or be self centered and to hang with other people, spot where the drama and unpleasantness comes from.

    I think every player alone can decide if their own objective and perspective is more important or not. The way YOU say other player's isn't important and they are just automatons, tools to allow others to get what they want. Who is the selfish here?

    well when you are in a group you can either be selfish, or be part of the group.

    So they are more important than I am? Who is the one to notice which player is more important than others?

    are you for real? all 5 are important as each other no?

    And that's precisely why the other 4 have no right to make any demands of me. If I feel like it, I'll stay. If I don't, I won't. And no matter what I choose, I'll be right to do it. Simple as that.

    im not demanding anything, i'm saying all 5 have equal rights, so be part of the group, oir be selfish, your choice.

    It's not being selfish. It's wanting to have fun - exactly what the others want. Rather than stay and spoil either my own or their experience, I choose to leave. It's better for everyone.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    very convenient to be sure.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    very convenient to be sure.

    Do you know what the word "selfish" mean?
    "(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for other people; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure."
    Joining a group with the expectation of being carried and expecting them to compensate for you is the very definition of the word selfish.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    very convenient to be sure.

    Do you know what the word "selfish" mean?
    "(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for other people; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure."
    Joining a group with the expectation of being carried and expecting them to compensate for you is the very definition of the word selfish.

    get over yourself, players is general do not join groups to be 'carried' and that has nothing to do with the original scenario and is a strawman (i left because of other bad behaviour)

    walking away is rude if the group didn't wanted you to leave. In any case my original point was about being a team player, either do or dont, but at least be a man and own your decision instead of blaming others.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    get over yourself, players is general do not join groups to be 'carried' and that has nothing to do with the original scenario and is a strawman (i left because of other bad behaviour)

    You mean this as the "original scenario":

    quitting mid run because the group does not satisfy your personal needs, rather than playing to the strength of the group

    If the group doesn't satisfy my personal needs it means some of the players joined a group that they did not belong to, the leader made false advertising on the LFG tool or both. In that situation a player has every right to leave the group to find another one that fits their own personal needs and is actually honest. Honesty is important.
    If the group satisfies my personal needs and all goes well, there is no reason to be discussing this in the first place.

    walking away is rude if the group didn't wanted you to leave.

    That's true, provided there was no reason to run away. Not fitting my personal needs is a perfect reason to run away though. If they want to take advantage of me, I leave.

    Btw the word you are looking for is Altruism

    disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others.

    But that's not something you can force on others.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭

    Isn't the selfish one the one who doesn't belong tot the group? If you're lfg says one thing while you join as another(classic, skilllevel, etc).

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    indeed ive talked about altruism in a group before. You cant force it on people but its a great characteristic - quite the opposite to the behaviours lauded here.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    indeed ive talked about altruism in a group before. You cant force it on people but its a great characteristic - quite the opposite to the behaviours lauded here.

    It's a great characteristic indeed. I'm not arguing that. What I'm saying is that it is my choice to be altruistic or not. And you have no right to demand it of me.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    indeed ive talked about altruism in a group before. You cant force it on people but its a great characteristic - quite the opposite to the behaviours lauded here.

    It's a great characteristic indeed. I'm not arguing that. What I'm saying is that it is my choice to be altruistic or not. And you have no right to demand it of me.

    i never said 'demand', that was a strawman argument by someone who got triggered, but i do expect it of myself, and I don't like it when others are selfish. Personally i think people are triggered here because they know deep down their behaviour is suspect at times. There's certainly a gross lack of empathy going on.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    indeed ive talked about altruism in a group before. You cant force it on people but its a great characteristic - quite the opposite to the behaviours lauded here.

    It's a great characteristic indeed. I'm not arguing that. What I'm saying is that it is my choice to be altruistic or not. And you have no right to demand it of me.

    i never said 'demand', that was a strawman argument by someone who got triggered, but i do expect it of myself, and I don't like it when others are selfish. Personally i think people are triggered here because they know deep down their behaviour is suspect at times. There's certainly a gross lack of empathy going on.

    Can you realistically expect something else? In most cases these are players you've never met before and won't meet again soon enough to recognize. Sure, some players overreact to other's mistakes. But some also do not perform on a level I would consider adequate. Mind you, everyone has a tolerance threshold. At some point, you just give up because you see someone is hopeless. In the sense that it would take you far too much time to make them perform on a level remotely resembling what's expected of them.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Raid Elitism has been slowly but surely seeping into fractals for quite some time now. Each day, there are more and more LFGs posted with descriptions such as: "Need Chrono - Need Heal Druid". These LFGs are in attempts to form 5 man raid meta teams, for fractals. I assume this is happening because of these reasons:

    • Players can't or don't want to afford multiple setups on most characters. For the purpose of saving resources, they gear for raids because it is the most difficult content.
    • Raid builds are designed to support each other and all DPS oriented raid builds require a healing druid. They have to bring in that healing druid.
    • Since the raid DPS and heal druid are present, players figure they may as well LFG for the chrono.

    My question is: Why are so many players only running raid builds nowadays? Well it may be due to these reasons:

    • Players just copy/paste whatever they see on the current meta-build websites they visit.
    • Players learn only that one build that they copy/paste from a meta-build website.
    • Players believe that one build is the end all be all and any deviation from that listed build would mean they are a bad player..
    • Players fail to understand that raid builds are designed for 10 man teams vs. raid AI single target bosses and that fractal AI and mobs function completely differently.

    If a group was running 99 and 100 CMs, I get it. It's nice to use the rehearsed raid meta and it does work well in CMs. But for general T4 daily completion, the expectation of pulling raid meta team comps is beginning to cause very unnecessary problems:

    • People being way too picky while forming teams before actually starting the fractal. T4s are something that can be completed in about 30 minutes on average if people who know what they are doing just group up and go do it. There is no reason to tag an extra 10 -20 minute wait time to form a raid meta team.
    • Groups full of raid DPSers who fail to pull a heal druid. They go in and are often unable to survive the random nature of fractal AI. It seems they fail to understand that having ultra high DPS means nothing if you can't stay alive long enough to use it. Frequently being in downstate is also a loss in DPS for the players who have to stop DPSing and go revive the downed player.
    • Overly elitist attitude for a casual game mode that simply does not require raid elitism within a party to succeed. They'll kick & boot players because their ARCDPS tells them that a particular player isn't meeting raid standard DPS. Sometimes they kick & boot a player simply because his build was a deviant of a meta, regardless of the player's actual performance. The elitist attitude leads them to believe they are "making the party stronger" by booting out unidentified build structures. But ironically enough, the players they will rag on or boot from the party are often older fractal players who have adapted custom builds that might sacrifice 15% to 20% top DPS for the ability to carry bad groups in fractals. The kind of builds that are capable of solo'ing CM MAMA or finishing CM Ensolyss cap phase by itself if it has to, avoiding a boss fight reset and saving everyone time.

    I wanted to write this thread because of something I watched happen, earlier today. There was this LFG for daily recommended fractals so I joined. The guy who made this LFG apparently felt he needed a raid heal druid and all raid metas to run his daily recommended fractals. There was 1 Berserker in the party who was using Heal Signet and the guy who created the LFG was throwing a fit over it. He tried to vote kick the Berserker but no one seconded the vote because well... it's just recommended and we really just wanted to get it done. The guy who created the LFG ended up leaving the party because the Berserker was "throwing off the group meta". We picked up a random 5th and completed the recommended fractals in a short amount of time. When I checked the LFG again for a T4 group to run with, that same guy who left our party was still posted in the LFG looking for an ultra meta group to run his daily recommended fractals with. Needless to say, that guy was being ridiculous. But what is important to point out is how his overly elitist attitude was actually making him waste his own time.

    Fractals are not raids.
    Stop being raid elitists in fractals.
    ~ There you have it. Someone needed to say it.

    If people want to group up with other people playing specific builds and of specific play styles let them. It's their choice. What do you want to disable party chat and lfg descriptions?

    And I thought you were cool after your 10 commandment of PvP post.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 We've come to a lot of end-game conclusions in this thread over the course of this discussion. Some of which had changed player's opinions over the course of time. Page 15 shows my final opinions on the subject, with the bigger post on: June 2, 2018 and the final big post on June 7, 2018.

  • Wow, how individual people here are still thinking that they can (even slightly) change a community. It's really astonishing.
    It's common knowledge that how bigger a group, how more difficult it is to change it. And happily ever after, our GW2 community is quite big!
    The only ones that can REALLY change this community are the ones that sets the rules and boundaries of the universe that we play in ...
    And I can understand all the complaints from this community ranging from meta elitism, till not pulling your weight. I'm not surprised at all with huge differences between classes, ranging from some being upper gods and almost being mandatory in all fights/encounters up till some being literally rejected in parties even before a fight starts, because they're almost utterly useless!
    ANet, please wake up!

  • Deepcuts.9740Deepcuts.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    For all wanna be heroes @ 99 and 100 CM (and more) going splat and crying "healer very sux", please:
    1. stop standing in all possible AoEs
    2. you need to actually be near the healer to get healed. A bit harder when on the opposite side of the boss.
    3. having a healer does not mean you get to stack on the boss and smash skill 1 while dropping a nice shiny Flux Bomb, standing on other people while having Social Awkwardness and thinking Last Laugh is a new show on Comedy Central
    I wish a healer could mitigate all that damage, but it does not work like that

    Yes, sometimes healer might very well "very sux". But look 1st in the mirror and think that others play that content without ANY healer.

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Deepcuts.9740 said:
    For all wanna be heroes @ 99 and 100 CM (and more) going splat and crying "healer very sux", please:
    1. stop standing in all possible AoEs
    2. you need to actually be near the healer to get healed. A bit harder when on the opposite side of the boss.
    3. having a healer does not mean you get to stack on the boss and smash skill 1 while dropping a nice shiny Flux Bomb, standing on other people while having Social Awkwardness and thinking Last Laugh is a new show on Comedy Central
    I wish a healer could mitigate all that damage, but it does not work like that

    Yes, sometimes healer might very well "very sux". But look 1st in the mirror and think that others play that content without ANY healer.

    Oh yes, you're absolutely right. Unfortunately, the probability of these wannabe heroes reading your post is about 0.

    Praise delta!

  • Been doing T4's for 3months ish always by pugging, i'm still relatively new, though always been a PvE try-hard on MMO's i enjoyed, never experienced toxicity compared to what i'm used to from other games.
    There's the occasional 1k dps player that doesn't cc, dies every 5 sec and doesn't communicate, those are likely to get kicked, but never seen people actually get hostile towards them, some just say they're new/learning and most people don't have any problems talking through mechanics and giving advice.

    Also i always run on parties with a Druid at least, Chrono is great and all but not mandatory IMO, sure you can clear without a Druid/healer but depending on the fractal/instabilities you'll be kiting so much you'll barely have time to dps(melee perspective).

    I've been playing dps base warr/spellbreaker and it's incredible for pugging IMO as it has heavy armor, high hp, great burst/sustained dps, great hp sustain and i'm able to solo-cc all bosses, Str/Disc/Def if party is struggling, swap Def to Tactics if there's a ton of boons and other dps are good, swap to Spb if No pain No gain instab.

  • Moogri.1935Moogri.1935 Member ✭✭
    edited June 22, 2018

    Being altruistic in a given situation is still a choice (as Feanor has been trying to point out multiple times). Wanting and choosing to be altruistic is all fine and dandy (I kinda see the angle Vesica is coming from in that some people/players just can't improve due to some sort of physical or mental limitation), but if someone isn't feeling up to it and chooses not to be?

    Going by maddoctors points in his potatoes post, and lets say that his option C of telling the underperforming players how to play better is not possible because of abovementioned hard limitation in the players themselves, and for a given situation that the highly performing player is not feeling altruistic, in a sense they will technically have the right to more compensation, do they not? So would you rather they:
    a) demand the rightly earned compensation from the underperforming players
    b) expect not to get extra compensation, cut their losses, and leave. (don't feel like being altruistic and choose not to be)
    c) force themselves to be altruistic and expect the underperforming players compensate them with tips or something. (don't feel like being altruistic but choose to be)

    Option A is much more of a kitten move and no one in their right mind would do so.
    Option B is what most people do.
    Option C, forced altruism, can lead to resentment if they don't get compensated just leading to more toxicity.

    (Although, on the flip side, it's quite nice to want to and choose to be altruistic with no expectation of reward and receive a tip.)

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Moogri.1935 said:
    (Although, on the flip side, it's quite nice to want to and choose to be altruistic with no expectation of reward and receive a tip.)

    But that just means your altruism overcame your reluctance in this case, so it's not really an applicable choice in the outlined situation (which postulated you didn't feel altruistic). Just writing this for clarity before Vesica jumps on it and says "this is what I'm talking about". Yeah, we know. Guess we're just not that selfless all the time.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2018

    I Agree with op, "exp" in Fractals lfg is becoming more and more common. i wonder in a few days we will see more sell of fractals kills than looking for a group to complete the cancer.

    If a group was running 99 and 100 CMs, I get it. It's nice to use the rehearsed raid meta and it does work well in CMs. But for general T4 daily completion, the expectation of pulling raid meta team comps is beginning to cause very unnecessary problems:

    this is spreading even to common t3 or t2.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2018

    In another hand, its seems these people leave the Dungeons in peace, I completed arah p4 with a nice dude who taught us kindly what to do, without dps meter and any kitten like that. It seems to me that the long-term trend is for things become more balanced out, group/content with over-demands tends to shortage of ppl in the long run.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    The elitist attitude leads them to believe they are "making the party stronger" by booting out unidentified build structures. But ironically enough, the players they will rag on or boot from the party are often older fractal players who have adapted custom builds that might sacrifice 15% to 20% top DPS for the ability to carry bad groups in fractals. The kind of builds that are capable of solo'ing CM MAMA or finishing CM Ensolyss cap phase by itself if it has to, avoiding a boss fight reset and saving everyone time.

    Thats my case, when i see the "dps champions" wiped easy i switch to necro heal / ress spam + minions.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    In another hand, its seems these people leave the Dungeons in peace, I completed arah p4 with a nice dude who taught us kindly what to do, without dps meter and any kitten like that. It seems to me that the long-term trend is for things become more balanced out, group/content with over-demands tends to shortage of ppl in the long run.

    Well becouse of power creep dungeons can be done by 2 compentent players or 1 really good one now days unless the path require more like cruicble of eternity as an example.

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Many dungeons could be and were soloed before the power creep.

    Praise delta!

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    Many dungeons could be and were soloed before the power creep.

    Dungeons are pretty much solo content nowadays unless you count those guys with 300 aps who join and follow you around.

  • I have always mained mesmer for fractals, and recently came back to the game - switched to support chrono as this is the new meta (and it's really nice I instantly get into 4/5 groups waiting for a chrono) and I wonder - does it really matter for daily T4 fractals if you have a chrono or not? Since my groups always have one because I'm the one playing it, I wonder does it even make a difference if you would just run a random composition of classes for the dailies?

  • @NeoCodex.2438 said:
    I have always mained mesmer for fractals, and recently came back to the game - switched to support chrono as this is the new meta (and it's really nice I instantly get into 4/5 groups waiting for a chrono) and I wonder - does it really matter for daily T4 fractals if you have a chrono or not? Since my groups always have one because I'm the one playing it, I wonder does it even make a difference if you would just run a random composition of classes for the dailies?

    I've been running with my chrono on dailies T4 too and I'd say yes, since chronos can bring quic/alac which makes fights faster, and if running chaos traitline you bring a plethora of other boons too lol, and being able to quickly do some mechanics, like teleporting and pulling all chains on cliffside/aetherblade, etc...

  • VDAC.2137VDAC.2137 Member ✭✭✭

    I think it’s quite understandable to try to form a balanced group for T4 fractals and since many people play multiple roles, it’s hardly elitist in my opinion.

    Now what IS elitist and really bugs me is how many LFG include LNHB as a requirement when they’re not doing CM Mistlock Observatory.

  • Milumeo Rinku.7583Milumeo Rinku.7583 Member ✭✭
    edited July 17, 2018

    I agree with the post in general. My personal preference in MMO's is to play a jack-of-all-trades, master of none type characters because I never stick to one build. As such, i've never touched meta builds or even looked at them, because that's boring to me. Personally I don't see the fun in adopting a build people have labelled meta and just use that until the new one comes along, especially in GW2 where you have just 10 skills slotted at once (maybe different in many hot bar / skills games such as WoW or Rift) I literally change build every couple of days, to ones which (I think) make sense logically and run celestial gear to accommodate switching between the many different builds / elite specs you can switch between. I like being able to change my role within a group and still be useful if not viable. Sure, I don't deal nearly as much damage as DPS focused team members, but I don't see DPS an issue most of the time. I've been in fracs which has gone extremely smooth and quick, and i've been in a t3 frac for 2 hours at the last boss with many different teams. I personally think as long as you have the skill with the class (dodging, skill timings, mechanics) you can make anything work, and i've seen it plenty of times. Again, it's far from the best, but it works.

    The reason this is particularly annoying for me is that I don't even get a chance when people use DPS meters and stuff, yet time and time again the pure DPS builds are constantly being downed or defeated; what use is your DPS build when you can't survive an AoE with a support player? I know I could make a party myself like many suggest, but as i'm starting to break into t4's my personal frac level isn't high enough to initiate some of the dailies. I end up just completing daily t3's because I cannot cross this elitist (whether raid or general) barriers in t4's, which is sad because I actually really enjoy them.

    I get that some people want efficiency and speed in dailies, they do feel like a chore sometimes, but I wish there were more people willing to start more relaxed groups because half the time I don't even see one.

    End of the day i'm playing how I enjoy, mixing up skills and traits everyday, and again, I understand for some people this isn't going to cut it as they enjoy a quick and efficient run, but I'm just hoping for a chance in some of these.

    That or I find a decent guild :tongue:

    EDIT: Sorry, I only just realized how old this post is!

  • Milumeo Rinku.7583Milumeo Rinku.7583 Member ✭✭
    edited July 18, 2018

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    There are a lot of players who agree with you. You can simply make non-meta groups with them. You'll see they wipe a LOT more than the meta-oriented groups most of the time. That's why meta groups are around - they tend to work better, hence meta. And non-meta groups are more and more rare - because it's frustrating to struggle for hours on simple bosses because players are convinced they're helping yet refuse to listen to reason. I've seen fractals where the opening burst of a weaver or DH does more damage than other players during the entire fight.

    A long time ago; most players in T4's were reasonably decent and played reasonably effective builds. You didn't need to be as elitist, most things went relatively smooth. But players kept going "hey, you can play whatever you want and it doesnt matter if you're good enough". That's almost true if you're good enough - which most players really are not.

    Now there's so many players who think they're helping and doing great - who can do the bosses, too- but do them so slowly and badly it's frustrating for better players to do daily. So they don't; and that's OK.

    The elitist barriers aren't a barrier to do T4. It's a barrier to playing with elitists; something you clearly rather not do as your style is completely different. It doesn't stop you from doing the content; it just means you'll have to find an appropriate group (or make your own) and carry your own weight. If your playstyle is effective then that shouldn't be a problem.

    Yeah I understand that completely. It's just hard to find non meta groups right now within the time frame I get to complete my dailies, and right now I don't have much time to work through the t4 fractals to be able to raise my personal frac level. It's funny, just the other day, I was in a daily t3 group, we were doing fine, finished 1 frac then they asked me to switch druid, which I was fine with but I said I don't know the meta build to pre-warn, and one just said 'google does' so I just said I'm not really about that so If you guys are set on using a meta druid then I'll leave, and they just said ok bye. It's just disheartening the slow lack of faith in anything but meta slowly creeping down fracts it seems. I am hoping to be able to start working through my fracs soon to start my own groups and maybe find a decent guild to frac with. Appreciate your post, I half expected some angry elitist responses, but yours was refreshing to read, thank you!

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