Raid Elitism Happening In Fractals - Page 18 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raid Elitism Happening In Fractals

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  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

    The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

    I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".
    Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

    I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

    Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.
    But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

    The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

    You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

    I know that but those players had hope since new raid and fractal was announced. Then they said that new raid will be relesade next patch (so there are fewer time between new content) and fractal wasnt what they were looking for. That means that they will return once new raid wing is here (next patch).

    And anet showed us that they can make easy fractals with "dungeon feel" like many fractal players that dont enjoy new fractals wanted and still make it entertaining for hardcore players. Example can be reworked molten boss. This fractal is pretty easy with no hard mechanics and bosses but it is still entertaining to hardcore players. The reason is that you actualy can make huge time diference with good strategy and skipping. On the other hand there are not that many options to make deepstone faster and there is basicaly not any danger. Basicaly deepstone is almost solid ocean that takes longer time (but i have to say it looks beautiful).

    GW2 was always casual. There was always some harder content but the majority was casual. Why did they ever assume that raids would be a focus? It was pretty clear from the beginning that raids will be a side project.

    GOOD. This is exactly what I needed. This is why GW2 won't retain veterans and hardcore players.

    You know on release, WvW had a huge population. And PvP did too. And they also both had some issues ... Yet casuals already stated "hey we're slightly bigger and you should cater to us first!". It tooks YEARS to adress the issues with these modes, and many players quit.
    And then the casuals go "HEY LOOK, we're more see we're right GW2 is a casual game!"
    But the result was losing lots of players and a diverse community.

    And you've kept it up for 5 years. Everyone, anyone, that asks content you'll say "hahaha no we've always been casual". Yeah, no. Open world pve was always casual, which was... one aspect of the game. PvP's design is WAY too difficult for a "casual" game. And WvW's design? For casuals? Some aspects, maybe. Yet it's drastically worse when only casuals play it. And fractals and raids are the same. The toxicity only increases.

    First off, the pvp scene was never big, it was barely alive except for 1-2 months after vanilla release. So there goes that out the window.

    Second, yes WvW was bigger in the past and yes WvW needs more love. WvW also was never hardcore but a mix of casual mass zerging and organized groups. The same WvW for over 6 years will lose out on players. I have firends in their 3-4k WvW ranks. Most of them did not quit due to how easy or hard WvW is but due to lack of content. This has nothing to do with casual or hardcore content development.

    Third, there was only open world pve up until HoT. Even dungeons were never hard. People were simply under geared the first 3 months after release.

    The game is casual. You can see it in every aspect of design and especially in how vanilla story, dungeons, balance and monetization was/is.

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    So your argument does NOTHING but alienate and indirectly flame everyone non-casual in this game. "This game is for casuals and everyone else is a negligible minority" has been repeated for years. And the result? Toxicity and a drastic decrease in playerbase and diversity.

    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    Toxicity has always been present in MMO group content. I challenge you to prove that this is higher (laughable) in GW2 than in other MMOs. The wide conception is that GW2 is one of the friendliest MMO games community wise.

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    Keep up shouting the game is for casual players. Keep implying others are irrelevant, it'll help you I swear. It'll totally make gw2 the greatest game ever :astonished:

    I don't expect raids to be a focus. I know that the non-casual aspect of GW2 is dying in all game modes (well, truth is many aspects are honestly full dead) and many of the issues the game faces with these contents are because of that. Most of the issues in WvW, PvP, raids and fractals nowadays are just issues that arrised because of the veteran population leaving. This thread is proof of it.

    I don't expect a "raid focus". I do wish that I wouldn't get random casuals attacking everything that isn't their preferred content telling us we shouldn't get it, because the game is for them. :)

    You know a lot of things while staying blind to metrics and even openly available data. Here is a side fun fact for you: Arenanet has a ton of more metrics and base their design and development decisions around those. It is highly unlikely they approach content development at random.

    The fact that raids are down population wise has a multitude of reasons:

    • it's summer (there a big one right off the bat)
    • the last expansion is 1 year old, people return for story or new raids momentarily at best
    • a huge drive for raids has been spread out over all 3 game modes (legendary armor)
    • the amount of Legendary Insights available has gone from 3 per week to 17 per week currently, drastically reducing time until first armor

    Even having a new raid wing ever 3 months would not remedie some of those factors. Here is another one: WoWs expansion is hitting in 2 weeks. Expect the playerbase to shrink even more then, and that too will have nothing to do with casual or hardcore gamers.

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    If you don't think overall content-cadence has decreased over the games lifespan then I think we've been playing a different game. I think the quality of PvE updates has gone up, and overall quality, direction and amount of content has drastically gone down.

    Nobody denies that but it's still too less content for a lot of players in their niches. Btw. it's the same with other MMOs. Developers cannot deliver content in a pace that can keep up with players playing it and not getting burned out due to hardcore playing. We just need to take a look at the few known raid streamers. They raid out-and-out, no wonder ppl getting bored and leave the game.

    Yes and no. I'm near 1k li too; i'm not impressed.

    Has nothing to do with impressing someone. It just means that some of us (probably you as well) have killed most of the bosses more than hundred times now and that's what makes them boring after playing that often.

    Content gets "grindy" a lot less quickly if i'm not full AFK. I don't repeat escort and trio 100 times. In fact, I think i did escort once (?) since PoF. I'll pay for a KC opener rather than do escort. But trying out new strats, tactics or classes on bosses can be fun. I'm not pretending VG or KC are difficult. I am saying VG is still more entertaining than literally any non-cm fractal. I'm saying i'm the kind of person that has done dhuum cm several times after having done the achievement to help others / out of boreddom / ... Also, the player quality at high LI is still drastically better than anything in non-cm fractals too.

    See, and that's more a subjective thing and not objective since I find VG so freaking boring no matter what tactic I have played or seen so far. He was cool when he was introduced but not any longer years after.
    Also, pugging raids is aids for me in non-high-kp groups while fractals "can" be fun (they must not). Just an attitude thing.

    I do stuff for fun, not the rewards, and frankly can't stand redoing regular T4's with how dull they have become. If I want to grind dailies to look pretty, I've got a long list of well-suited asian MMO's.

    Again subjective, for me raiding is mostly for rewards and a lot other people as well. They do their daily clear (most often with fun) and then don't touch them again till next week.

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    If you don't think overall content-cadence has decreased over the games lifespan then I think we've been playing a different game. I think the quality of PvE updates has gone up, and overall quality, direction and amount of content has drastically gone down.

    Nobody denies that but it's still too less content for a lot of players in their niches. Btw. it's the same with other MMOs. Developers cannot deliver content in a pace that can keep up with players playing it and not getting burned out due to hardcore playing. We just need to take a look at the few known raid streamers. They raid out-and-out, no wonder ppl getting bored and leave the game. I don't belong to that group, of course I want to play challenging content but I also play the things at festivals, doing achievements and crafting stuff like legendaries etc. And since I'm not online for about 12+ hours a day (like some of the above mentioned player) I don't burn out that fast on distinct content.

    My niche is "ANY COMBAT" that is challenging. I've gotten 0 challenging content other than W5. WvW has gotten nothing. PvP has gotten nothing. In fact they get drastically worse as veterans and guilds quit in both modes. PvE is as you stated, new fractals aren't challenging. That leaves W5...

    I'm not saying "there isn't enough pure raid content". I'm literally saying there is almost NOTHING except for pure casual content in the last year +.
    I get it, if you grind 12 hours a day obviously you'll be repeating stuff. I'm not grinding 12 hours a day, and i haven't seen much "new" stuff. Have you? I've seen W5. Nothing WvW. Nothing PvP. Nothing difficult anywhere else.

    It's not like i've done W5 three times daily for the last months. There just really hasn't been any challenging content in a really long time. And there won't be more.

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

    The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

    I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".
    Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

    I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

    Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.
    But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

    The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

    You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

    I know that but those players had hope since new raid and fractal was announced. Then they said that new raid will be relesade next patch (so there are fewer time between new content) and fractal wasnt what they were looking for. That means that they will return once new raid wing is here (next patch).

    And anet showed us that they can make easy fractals with "dungeon feel" like many fractal players that dont enjoy new fractals wanted and still make it entertaining for hardcore players. Example can be reworked molten boss. This fractal is pretty easy with no hard mechanics and bosses but it is still entertaining to hardcore players. The reason is that you actualy can make huge time diference with good strategy and skipping. On the other hand there are not that many options to make deepstone faster and there is basicaly not any danger. Basicaly deepstone is almost solid ocean that takes longer time (but i have to say it looks beautiful).

    GW2 was always casual. There was always some harder content but the majority was casual. Why did they ever assume that raids would be a focus? It was pretty clear from the beginning that raids will be a side project.

    GOOD. This is exactly what I needed. This is why GW2 won't retain veterans and hardcore players.

    You know on release, WvW had a huge population. And PvP did too. And they also both had some issues ... Yet casuals already stated "hey we're slightly bigger and you should cater to us first!". It tooks YEARS to adress the issues with these modes, and many players quit.
    And then the casuals go "HEY LOOK, we're more see we're right GW2 is a casual game!"
    But the result was losing lots of players and a diverse community.

    And you've kept it up for 5 years. Everyone, anyone, that asks content you'll say "hahaha no we've always been casual". Yeah, no. Open world pve was always casual, which was... one aspect of the game. PvP's design is WAY too difficult for a "casual" game. And WvW's design? For casuals? Some aspects, maybe. Yet it's drastically worse when only casuals play it. And fractals and raids are the same. The toxicity only increases.

    First off, the pvp scene was never big, it was barely alive except for 1-2 months after vanilla release. So there goes that out the window.

    Second, yes WvW was bigger in the past and yes WvW needs more love. WvW also was never hardcore but a mix of casual mass zerging and organized groups. The same WvW for over 6 years will lose out on players. I have firends in their 3-4k WvW ranks. Most of them did not quit due to how easy or hard WvW is but due to lack of content. This has nothing to do with casual or hardcore content development.

    Third, there was only open world pve up until HoT. Even dungeons were never hard. People were simply under geared the first 3 months after release.

    PvP was much, much bigger than it is now. But yes, it has pretty clear issues with balance and no matchmaking back then. Still, PvP's issues are only getting worse as the game gets more casual.

    Yes, WvW needs more love. WvW was a healthy mix of hardcore and casual. And who quit? Everyone half hardcore. All the organised groups. Half the pugmanders that lead those mass zergs. The same WvW for 6 years is perfectly fine if it's not designed for casuals and completely ignored, but it was. And you know what PvE players said? Screw WvW, it's not important there's more pve players anyways. And here we are.

    You see WvW did not need "content" in terms of new fluffy stuff, maps, gliding, mounts, all that casual stuff. It did need balance, support, improved coverage / ppt fix. So when we get casual oriented stuff like ... a wonderful looking desert bl that they demand, that doesn't function, that ruins PPT balance and is impossible to fight for objectives at an even scale then yeah, i'd say it's catered and demanded by casuals.

    If wvw gets gliding and reward updates, which are then further updated to promote afk-ing, low level gameplay and not winning, active or good gameplay then i'd say yeah catered to casuals rather than the veterans issues which -still- aren't fixed. It's almost as if EU was telling anet coverage-based PPT couldn't work 5 years ago. Alliances coming soon and they still won't consider fixing it ;)

    I'm not comparing toxicity in GW2 to other games. I'm comparing toxicity in non-openworld PVE. The elitism in WvW between casuals and vets has definitely increased drastically. Similar for raids and fractals in my book. Most definitely for PvP.

    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    Not sure if serious.

    • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
    • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
    • introduction of raids with HoT
    • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

    Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

    Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

    I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

    You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

    The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

    I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".
    Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

    I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

    Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.
    But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

    The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

    You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

    Well, to be fair the fractals released before Deepstone was actually nice for hardcore players. Nightmare, Shattered Observatory and Twilight Oasis are all on the "challenging" side of the spectrum (when it comes to fractals), even without counting the CM the first two offered. Also Hall of Chains features pretty solid bosses, if only two of them.

    So I don't think ANet have been neglecting the their hardcore playerbase. At least not yet. If the next raid wing turns out to be a joke and if the new fractal releases are all similar to Deepstone, then I'll agree. Currently, I don't see a real reason to complain. I mean, sure, I'd like it better if DS was another cool fractal with good bosses that you actually had to pay attention to. But it's OK to release less hardcore content as well. There are players seeking that, too.

    Well If fractals is hard for you you can go lower tier. Hardcore players have no such option. And it wouldnt be that hard to implement challange mode for deepstone. Like when you fall you die and something like tequatl waves. They decided to go with no CM and with no dificulty.

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    Not sure if serious.

    • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
    • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
    • introduction of raids with HoT
    • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

    Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

    Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

    I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

    You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

    Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

    I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

    And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    Not sure if serious.

    • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
    • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
    • introduction of raids with HoT
    • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

    Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

    Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

    I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

    You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

    Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

    No, everything that is played by 5-10% of the player base is niche. I disagree on the game having shifted and you haven't shown as much so far besides your own subjective opinion.

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

    The ascpects of the game which had the most players experience problems. Not sure, what is your point?

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

    Having 15 years of MMO experience (DAoC, WoW, Warhammer Online, Eve Online), yes I do stand by my assessment that the GW2 community is the friendliest I have experienced so far. Maybe I got lucky with the people and guilds I met/joined.

    No one is dissuading you from stating concerns. I'm personally disagreeing that the concerns of the few are more important than those of the many.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Having 15 years of MMO experience (DAoC, WoW, Warhammer Online, Eve Online), yes I do stand by my assessment that the GW2 community is the friendliest I have experienced so far. Maybe I got lucky with the people and guilds I met/joined.

    No one is dissuading you from stating concerns. I'm personally disagreeing that the concerns of the few are more important than those of the many.

    Nah, you are absolutely right, without any doubt. Even though I don't make use it very often, the community is by far the friendliest. And that can be repeatedly seen on reddit every day.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

    Definitely wrong. We haven't had anything related to fractal cms before HoT in PvE or anything you can compare to raids.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    Not sure if serious.

    • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
    • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
    • introduction of raids with HoT
    • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

    Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

    Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

    I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

    You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

    Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

    I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

    And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

    Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.
    To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

    First person to reach 35,000 and 36,000 AP.
    killproof.me/proof/kEyr

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    Not sure if serious.

    • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
    • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
    • introduction of raids with HoT
    • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

    Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

    Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

    I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

    You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

    Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

    I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

    And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

    Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.
    To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

    The only thing i remember being even kinda challenging about was being undergeared and obviously not knowing classes. Im sure if i went back in time and retained that same knowledge it would be just as faceroll easy as it is now outside of a few fights(like Zhaitain).

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    Not sure if serious.

    • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
    • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
    • introduction of raids with HoT
    • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

    Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

    Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

    I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

    You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

    Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

    I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

    And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

    Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.
    To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

    The only thing i remember being even kinda challenging about was being undergeared and obviously not knowing classes. Im sure if i went back in time and retained that same knowledge it would be just as faceroll easy as it is now outside of a few fights(like Zhaitain).

    He probably means HoT beta. That one was nasty. Pocket raptors and sharpshooters basically instakilled you.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So as soon as I post in this thread about the absence of elite parties in fractals, I get the best LFG group I've seen all year. So random. It must be the work of RNGesus.

    The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
    Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
    -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest#1

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    Not sure if serious.

    • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
    • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
    • introduction of raids with HoT
    • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

    Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

    Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

    I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

    You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

    Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

    I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

    And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

    Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.
    To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

    The only thing i remember being even kinda challenging about was being undergeared and obviously not knowing classes. Im sure if i went back in time and retained that same knowledge it would be just as faceroll easy as it is now outside of a few fights(like Zhaitain).

    I remember not being able to face tank everything in personal story and let auto attack does all the work. Sure having more experience helps, but it is undeniable that Anet dumbed a lot of things down

    First person to reach 35,000 and 36,000 AP.
    killproof.me/proof/kEyr

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    Not sure if serious.

    • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
    • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
    • introduction of raids with HoT
    • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

    Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

    Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

    I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

    You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

    Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

    I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

    And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

    Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.
    To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

    The only thing i remember being even kinda challenging about was being undergeared and obviously not knowing classes. Im sure if i went back in time and retained that same knowledge it would be just as faceroll easy as it is now outside of a few fights(like Zhaitain).

    I remember not being able to face tank everything in personal story and let auto attack does all the work. Sure having more experience helps, but it is undeniable that Anet dumbed a lot of things down

    Except Harpies. Harpies are forever stronk.

    The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
    Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
    -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest#1

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    Not sure if serious.

    • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
    • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
    • introduction of raids with HoT
    • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

    Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

    Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

    I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

    You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

    Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

    I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

    And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

    Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.
    To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

    The only thing i remember being even kinda challenging about was being undergeared and obviously not knowing classes. Im sure if i went back in time and retained that same knowledge it would be just as faceroll easy as it is now outside of a few fights(like Zhaitain).

    I remember not being able to face tank everything in personal story and let auto attack does all the work. Sure having more experience helps, but it is undeniable that Anet dumbed a lot of things down

    You remember wrong. Except the eye of Zaithan and Ruins of Orr story mode nothing got a real nerf. You just were undergeared and/or didn't know what you were doing. Most of the story was always pretty faceroll.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    Not sure if serious.

    • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
    • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
    • introduction of raids with HoT
    • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

    Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

    Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

    I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

    You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

    Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

    I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

    And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

    Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.
    To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

    The only thing i remember being even kinda challenging about was being undergeared and obviously not knowing classes. Im sure if i went back in time and retained that same knowledge it would be just as faceroll easy as it is now outside of a few fights(like Zhaitain).

    I remember not being able to face tank everything in personal story and let auto attack does all the work. Sure having more experience helps, but it is undeniable that Anet dumbed a lot of things down

    You remember wrong. Except the eye of Zaithan and Ruins of Orr story mode nothing got a real nerf. You just were undergeared and/or didn't know what you were doing. Most of the story was always pretty faceroll.

    No, I do not remember wrong. I have a very good long term memory. Even the low level personal story had champions that could easily kill you if you didnt watch out. Now they are just boring auto attack fiestas, even when playing them at their appropriate level.

    First person to reach 35,000 and 36,000 AP.
    killproof.me/proof/kEyr

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    He probably means HoT beta. That one was nasty. Pocket raptors and sharpshooters basically instakilled you.

    Was it really though? i played during it, and maybe it was because of how i played normally at the time, outside of sharpshooters cause lol invisible, i didnt have issues(killing everything as you go makes things easier instead of trying to run!)

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    No, I do not remember wrong. I have a very good long term memory. Even the low level personal story had champions that could easily kill you if you didnt watch out. Now they are just boring auto attack fiestas, even when playing them at their appropriate level.

    I remember the champions too they usually happened during the last story instance for that particular story grouping if i remember correctly, also yes you couldnt just auto attack, but having that player knowledge wouldve made things infinitely easier.

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    He probably means HoT beta. That one was nasty. Pocket raptors and sharpshooters basically instakilled you.

    Was it really though? i played during it, and maybe it was because of how i played normally at the time, outside of sharpshooters cause lol invisible, i didnt have issues(killing everything as you go makes things easier instead of trying to run!)

    Compared to release or 2nd beta it was. The first one did have more and differnt types of mobs in story aswell. The very first one had a group of sharpshooters that basically killed you if you didnt dodge.
    Was there to show mechanics like lots of stuff but forum cried too much and it was toned down quite a lot for the 2nd beta event.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    He probably means HoT beta. That one was nasty. Pocket raptors and sharpshooters basically instakilled you.

    Was it really though? i played during it, and maybe it was because of how i played normally at the time, outside of sharpshooters cause lol invisible, i didnt have issues(killing everything as you go makes things easier instead of trying to run!)

    Compared to release or 2nd beta it was. The first one did have more and differnt types of mobs in story aswell. The very first one had a group of sharpshooters that basically killed you if you didnt dodge.
    Was there to show mechanics like lots of stuff but forum cried too much and it was toned down quite a lot for the 2nd beta event.

    Ah, i dont really recall that from the first beta, but i also think for the first beta i just ran around SW on rev.

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • Zaraki.5784Zaraki.5784 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2018

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    You guys are going way too deep morally, Lincoln/Douglas debate style here. No one is arguing with the moral side of things you're stating. I'm simply referencing that it only takes 3 people to vote kick some guy who joins on a Core Guardian, who does not have the option to play DH. So before judging him based on elite raid discrimination, just give the guy a chance to be effective before kicking.

    This does happen often to players who don't own w/e expansion it is that they need to run a meta, and this is a large part of why you don't see many people in T4s running core builds. They catch so much grief for it that it drives them away from the game mode, regardless of their performance. <- This is called discrimination. These people are making due with what they have access to, or sometimes it's just a bored "Fractal God" who wanted to run something different, who probably can out DPS everyone else in the party and solo things like Arkk, with an off meta build.

    Before you respond again, with morals and anecdotal facts, know that I am not searching for responses and regurgitated statements. I am simply pointing out, that T4 fractals are not hard and the difference between Having a power burst DH or a Grieving Core Guardian in your team is maybe 2 to 3 minutes tops, at the end of your run.

    Before you respond again, about "playing how you like or doing what you want" remember that I am not talking about kicking players who truly are poor players or who have terrible setups or who just aren't on the right class "say you wanted a Chrono, not a Berserker Warrior". No one is questioning these kind of kicks. I am talking about flat out discrimination based on preconceived elitist attitudes that a player is immediately bad or ineffective because he is not running what a meta site has listed.

    ~ Players should stop defending discriminatory party kicking as it is an ignorant practice that further limits build diversity in easy game modes.

    2 guild friends and me often run a 4 condi scourges+1 druid (the latter one being one of the 2 friends of mine) for t4 dailies, so we look for 2 more condi scourges in lfg description. Is it the best comp for T4? No, it's not but it's how we want to do them.
    We like this composition and we don't want any change to that, even if it would outperform our comp and whenever someone who doesn't read lfg description join us saying "I don't have scourge, can I come X?" or "I am crono/war/weaver dps/condi class different from scourge/etc, it's better than scourge", we insta-kick him/her.
    The point of this story is: we have all rights to have the class we want in our party and we have all rights to kick every people who don't respect that!

    "Sticks and stones may break your bones but words will never be able to injure you!"
    The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So the elitism is at an all time high in CMs + T4s + Recs.

    Lately there is an increase in the absolute demand of: Druid / Chrono / BS. Man I get it, I do. It is rather annoying though, for those of us who only have one +9AR/5stat character geared for fractals ><. If that one character is something like a Power DH "like my situation", it's becoming harder to find groups and get CM/T4/Recs done quickly.

    The real issue here for me is how gated it is to have "several" characters geared for CMs to be able to get quick play in these groups. If I could, I would gear Druid/Chrono/BS and keep my Power DH. This way I could play in any group that had a slot open. However, +9/5 is so expensive that not only is this a huge gate in itself, but it's something that I really do not want to invest in because of how expensive it is. Having even a mixture of +7/5 and +9/5 is almost as much gold sink as a legendary.

    Many people would say "Bro just use normal agony infusions." But I completely disagree. +9/5 gearing is pretty important so that your character has enough AR and so that it doesn't suck in raids. Some may say "Bro use two different setups. One with wvw infusions for raids, and another for +9 normal infusions." But this is silly, considering how much two different ascended outfits costs and the inventory space used. Couldn't we just use infusion extractors to keep swapping wvw stat infusions with +agony? Well we could, but not only is that extraordinarily annoying to have to do, but over time it would be an enormous gold sink.

    Many people would also say that "Gating is important," which I agree with initially, when we're talking a person who is learning on some character for the first time. But when a player has played a character to nightly CM/T4/Rec activity, who maybe has even achieved Fractal God, how much wealth gating is important or acceptable when preventing him from being able to class swap to fit different roles? It's a good question.

    I feel like the titles and all associated unlocks should be granting more account bound agony resistance. I also feel that maybe Arenanet should up the drop rates of Stabilizing Matrix on salvage, and reduce the cost of Integrated Fractal Matrix while making infusions.

    Whatever happens, I'd like to be able to gear multiple characters for fractals, while still having them perform optimally in raids, at a significantly reduced price that is realistic to take on with a single account.

    The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
    Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
    -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest#1

  • The reason that many fractal parties now search for chrono is that not enough chronos do fractals with pugs.

    I used to do fractals with chrono until the signet change. Now you cannot reliably keep up 100% uptimes. You can prestack using singularity so your boons start to fall later. Now my uptimes depends on dps of other players and there is enourmous diference between t4 players. That is why I dont take any chances and do fractals only with players I know.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    The problem with GW2 is you really notice the impacts of casual people as an experienced player in a way that with WoW or FFXIV it's far less noticeable because the content is nerfed through gearing (and even with less geared casuals being trivially carried by more geared people).

    I go into regular T4's and the people you get can mean your T4's can take significantly longer than a daily CM100/99+T4's from an experienced group.

    In regular T4's I was a weaver doing 12-14k and the rest of the DPS were barely breaking 6k DPS, there was a deadeye camping pistol/pistol and the chrono was just ranging with staff. When time came to do the Urban fractal it was a totally painful experience as you had only 2 people run into melee, get creamed by the horde of Ascalonian warriors while the thief and mesmer were ranging next to the statue. Wipe after wipe after wipe due to poor DPS.

    Poor DPS in this game is massively noticeable because the mobs are such a vastly bigger threat and the lack of traditional healing systems like in WoW means that groups with poor DPS can seldom outlast the high damage spikes of mobs.

    So you have a total fracturing of the community because the difference between good and bad is so large and unlike FFXIV/WoW, GW2's DPS performance is so unintuitive and hard to measure/analyze alongside several other obstacles to it.

    In GW2 for some stupid reason autoattack chains are interrupted by skill usage, which means autoattack counting is vital as interrupting the autoattack chain with a skill in between means resetting the chain. Since there are no add on's to track the chain step you are at, and the game is a neon board mess of visual effects often obscuring your own animations, you have little choice but to stare at your action bar and meorize which icon is the 2nd-3rd part of the chain to make sure you don't cut it off. Which then takes your eyes off the rest of the surroundings.

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    In GW2 for some stupid reason autoattack chains are interrupted by skill usage, which means autoattack counting is vital as interrupting the autoattack chain with a skill in between means resetting the chain. Since there are no add on's to track the chain step you are at, and the game is a neon board mess of visual effects...

    I always wondered why the auto attack chains don't have a number on them (1, 2, 3) tbh. There are a few exceptions and muscle memory, of course, (Necro Scepter and DH Greatsword are burned into my mind but also easy enough to notice) but playing another class or build is really annoying initially for that reason. ChainSkill 2 of most chains is visible for such a short timeframe or so unimportant as an individual attack, besides being a copy of ChainSkill 1 in most cases.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    So the elitism is at an all time high in CMs + T4s + Recs.

    Where else would you expect to find it though? Are you suggesting that elitism can somehow be eliminated? Because it can't, it's part of the human condition.

    Look at any organization, be it business, politics, academia, and you will always find people who look down their nose at others, and set subjective barriers to entry into their world. /shrug

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    The real issue here for me is how gated it is to have "several" characters geared for CMs to be able to get quick play in these groups. If I could, I would gear Druid/Chrono/BS and keep my Power DH. This way I could play in any group that had a slot open. However, +9/5 is so expensive that not only is this a huge gate in itself, but it's something that I really do not want to invest in because of how expensive it is. Having even a mixture of +7/5 and +9/5 is almost as much gold sink as a legendary.

    Many people would say "Bro just use normal agony infusions." But I completely disagree. +9/5 gearing is pretty important so that your character has enough AR and so that it doesn't suck in raids.

    No, it's not +5 stats are irrelevant to 99% of the raiders, maybe even more. Unless you are not speed running in a serious speed running that holds several records +5 are negligible. Even in those guilds I'm not 100% sure that every player has +9/5 on every char; it's rather unlikely. And, as you could have seen in the latest raid tournament the best geared char doesn't mean anything if you can't execute the mechanics properly. Never forget: We are talking about the top of the hill not about the huge majority of raiders and extended: fractal players (means: not every fractal player is raiding).
    Furthermore, my condi bannerslave is the only char I have optimized completely and people still take my power dh without +5s and I am and was on par with other dps players (although I'm not grinding for max dps). Not talking about broken fractal weaver (from the past). Not to speak about raids where I sometimes use dps chars with only asc armor and I regularly outdps pugs with them, again: I'm not a dps player per se, I main druid & bannerslave.

    A single +9 infusion is at around 8g. A normal t4 + recs theoretically allows to buy at least 2 of them (easy 16g + almost a stack of infusion per daily run). If we generously talking about 18 slots that's 9 days to gear a new char for running fractals. I repeat: You don't need +5s at all, that's bs. 9 days is very easy to achieve and I didn't even include CMs. In extension that means 3 times the cost since you can buy one +9/5s for 3 +9s + stabilizing matrices. So, one month to completely min/max gear one char is too much? I call heavy bs here.

    Sure, if the only thing you do is play fractals and you never use your gold for anything else other than gearing characters to play fractals so that you can gear other characters to play fractals.

    And I don't know what raiding group you're with, but saying that +90 stat off infusions doesn't matter is like saying food buffs don't matter.

    The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
    Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
    -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest#1

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    The real issue here for me is how gated it is to have "several" characters geared for CMs to be able to get quick play in these groups. If I could, I would gear Druid/Chrono/BS and keep my Power DH. This way I could play in any group that had a slot open. However, +9/5 is so expensive that not only is this a huge gate in itself, but it's something that I really do not want to invest in because of how expensive it is. Having even a mixture of +7/5 and +9/5 is almost as much gold sink as a legendary.

    Many people would say "Bro just use normal agony infusions." But I completely disagree. +9/5 gearing is pretty important so that your character has enough AR and so that it doesn't suck in raids.

    No, it's not +5 stats are irrelevant to 99% of the raiders, maybe even more. Unless you are not speed running in a serious speed running that holds several records +5 are negligible. Even in those guilds I'm not 100% sure that every player has +9/5 on every char; it's rather unlikely. And, as you could have seen in the latest raid tournament the best geared char doesn't mean anything if you can't execute the mechanics properly. Never forget: We are talking about the top of the hill not about the huge majority of raiders and extended: fractal players (means: not every fractal player is raiding).
    Furthermore, my condi bannerslave is the only char I have optimized completely and people still take my power dh without +5s and I am and was on par with other dps players (although I'm not grinding for max dps). Not talking about broken fractal weaver (from the past). Not to speak about raids where I sometimes use dps chars with only asc armor and I regularly outdps pugs with them, again: I'm not a dps player per se, I main druid & bannerslave.

    A single +9 infusion is at around 8g. A normal t4 + recs theoretically allows to buy at least 2 of them (easy 16g + almost a stack of infusion per daily run). If we generously talking about 18 slots that's 9 days to gear a new char for running fractals. I repeat: You don't need +5s at all, that's bs. 9 days is very easy to achieve and I didn't even include CMs. In extension that means 3 times the cost since you can buy one +9/5s for 3 +9s + stabilizing matrices. So, one month to completely min/max gear one char is too much? I call heavy bs here.

    Sure, if the only thing you do is play fractals and you never use your gold for anything else other than gearing characters to play fractals so that you can gear other characters to play fractals.

    And I don't know what raiding group you're with, but saying that +90 stat off infusions doesn't matter is like saying food buffs don't matter.

    About to hit 850 LI.

    +5/9 Stat infusions are absolutely unimportant unless you are suffering a severe OCD. They are neither required in raids, nor in fractals.

    If you really think you need these to be able to perform, you are either on a God level of skill where every little % matters. Or you are obsessing over something idiotic.

    The difference of 90 Stat points in total is less significant then 1-2 tries of practice on the training golem.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    lol I love you guys, coming in here as if no one out there is using +5 stat infusions on raid characters.

    Funny stuff, very funny stuff.

    The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
    Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
    -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest#1

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    lol I love you guys, coming in here as if no one out there is using +5 stat infusions on raid characters.

    Funny stuff, very funny stuff.

    The actual funny stuff here is that you complain about elitism while laughing at people who say stat infusions are irrelevant most of the time (most players don't use them, really). Which is actually elitism.

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    lol I love you guys, coming in here as if no one out there is using +5 stat infusions on raid characters.

    Funny stuff, very funny stuff.

    No one in here said that no one uses stat infusions. People said that they arent important, which they are correct with.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    lol I love you guys, coming in here as if no one out there is using +5 stat infusions on raid characters.

    Funny stuff, very funny stuff.

    i have about 14 raid ready characters, 4 of them are full infused. yet im also perfectly capable of doing full runs with the other ones. in fact i have been kicked 0 times, and not one complaint of my lack of dps so far. hell i don´t even run BIS food and utility the whole time. while i am a hugh fantasy fan, you should rather try to stay in reality.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    lol I love you guys, coming in here as if no one out there is using +5 stat infusions on raid characters.

    Funny stuff, very funny stuff.

    i have about 14 raid ready characters, 4 of them are full infused. yet im also perfectly capable of doing full runs with the other ones. in fact i have been kicked 0 times, and not one complaint of my lack of dps so far. hell i don´t even run BIS food and utility the whole time. while i am a hugh fantasy fan, you should rather try to stay in reality.

    This.

    I raid on 5 characters (as in I play in raids), have currently 8.8k Magnetite shards, over 3k gold, 12 sets of full ascended armor on characters, 3 sets in form of fractal and raid boss boxes on the bank, so it's not even a gold issue for me.

    The assumption that +5/9 infusion are required or are limiting people of performing or clearing content is simply false. They are used by about 1% of the raiding community and player base. The cost-benefit ratio is just that bad.

    Can you use them? Sure go for it. Does not having them on every single character impair you in any way of clearing fractals or raids? No.

    TD;DR: there is a difference between voluntary spending 3k gold on a very minor stat improvement and assuming this stat improvement is required. +5/9 are absolutely 100% voluntary.

  • I'm not even sure if Trevor agrees with me, but I've got a feeling his post primarily has nothing to do with the +5/9 infusions thing. But has everything to do that you are STILL pretty much required to play certain professions when pugging fractal CM's. And if you have one character that is perfectly geared (read: with +5/9) and happens to be your favourite character, but is also just not considered one of the elite professions, you're left with 3 options:
    1. Re-gear to a profession that is desired (i.e. an all-time elite profession: Mesmer, Ranger (since Druid), Warrior, Ele), which costs a lot even if you already have that (perfect) gear, but on a different character (profession). Imo, ANet could make this a lot easier for us when they finally provide us with a good template design!
    2. Use less than perfect gear (maybe even not ascended) and still choose to play one of those elite professions, while leaving your own preferred profession (your main) on the shelf ... Imo, ANet could fix that, by focussing a bit more on PvE endgame balancing instead of almost only on PvP and WvW (it's ridiculous how strong some professions are in the PvE endgame pretty much since launch already)
    3. Don't pug when you want to do fractal CM's. although a favourite answer for all those Mesmer/Ranger/Warrior/Ele mains out there, it's imo also the one real toxic/elite answer that you can give, and it's not going to change anything to this this very long-sitting unhealthy META in the PvE endgame, which is not even blacklisting whole professions in the game, but also the players behind them who happen to like these professions the most (calling them their mains): see point 1 for that!

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    I'm not even sure if Trevor agrees with me, but I've got a feeling his post primarily has nothing to do with the +5/9 infusions thing. But has everything to do that you are STILL pretty much required to play certain professions when pugging fractal CM's. And if you have one character that is perfectly geared (read: with +5/9) and happens to be your favourite character, but is also just not considered one of the elite professions.

    So only Condi specs, because Power focussed builds are more powerful in fractals due to lower HP pools of enemies compared to raids and because Power and Condition builds cannibalize each other.

    1. Re-gear to a profession that is desired (i.e. an all-time elite profession: Mesmer, Ranger (since Druid), Warrior, Ele), which costs a lot even if you already have that (perfect) gear, but on a different character (profession). Imo, ANet could make this a lot easier for us when they finally provide us with a good template design!

    If you want to be a Purist, sure. Then you'll have Chrono, Warr/SPB, Soulbeast, Dragonhunter and Weaver. But I only ever see one or two lfgs specifically asking for certain DPS specs (DPS, mind you!) and I pug fractals every day. As long as the Warr does at least double my own damage (Chrono) and the two DPS are ahead of the Warr it's smooth sailing. Furthermore, every single class (even Necromancer) has a workable Power Spec for fractals now but some require more effort than others to perform well so that's on the individual player.
    I have seen Reaper pulling more DPS than the flavour of the month Weaver through sheer skill alone but also had thieves insisting on playing Deadeye in fights where the class is underperforming by design. I quote CyNinja here because it boils down to "make. your. own. LFG.".
    And regarding the last part: If you want to do CMs+T4 you are required to have 150 AR anyway which translates to having Ascended gear... which is account bound and - at least for Power DPS - is the same accross all classes and builds.

    1. Use less than perfect gear (maybe even not ascended) and still choose to play one of those elite professions, while leaving your own preferred profession (your main) on the shelf ... Imo, ANet could fix that, by focussing a bit more on PvE endgame balancing instead of almost only on PvP and WvW (it's ridiculous how strong some professions are in the PvE endgame pretty much since launch already)

    How do you even plan to do fractal CMs + T4 without Ascended gear? Tear of Alba only provides 15 AR so at worst you would need 130 AR (15 from tear, 5 from singularity) and never use up your singularity.

    1. Don't pug when you want to do fractal CM's. although a favourite answer for all those Mesmer/Ranger/Warrior/Ele mains out there, it's imo also the one real toxic/elite answer that you can give, and it's not going to change anything to this this very long-sitting unhealthy META in the PvE endgame, which is not even blacklisting whole professions in the game, but also the players behind them who happen to like these professions the most (calling them their mains): see point 1 for that!

    You do realize that you spend around 15 minutes per Fractal CM (Chrono, Warr, Healer, 2 DPS), adding T4 to that adds another 10-30 minutes, depending on fractals so we talk about around 1 hour for five fractals. Recs add another 10-20 minutes on top of that and that is with a well rounded Power dps focused team. Remove the Healer for another DPS and you might be able to shave 20 minutes off.
    Again, do you realize that following the META approach will still take between 1 - 1,5 hours for content many of those players have done for years. Why would they ever want to speed through it, GEEZ, I sure love Torin and Kay bullshitting about their past in the thieves guild for the 150th time!

  • Agrippa Oculus.3726Agrippa Oculus.3726 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    @Grogba.6204 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    2. Use less than perfect gear (maybe even not ascended) and still choose to play one of those elite professions, while leaving your own preferred profession (your main) on the shelf ... Imo, ANet could fix that, by focussing a bit more on PvE endgame balancing instead of almost only on PvP and WvW (it's ridiculous how strong some professions are in the PvE endgame pretty much since launch already)

    How do you even plan to do fractal CMs + T4 without Ascended gear? Tear of Alba only provides 15 AR so at worst you would need 130 AR (15 from tear, 5 from singularity) and never use up your singularity.

    And this is exactly what I mean with not focussing on the real issue at hand. Arguing over a small detail between brackets, which I indeed mistyped. My apologies. It should've been: (maybe even not all ascended). (Say exotic weapons, or even armor (pieces), you can still do CM's and won't even be shamed beforehand, just because you rolled the desired class.)

    The real issue imo is this whole class elitism META that we're in. And you know the weird thing is that I don't even care that much about elitism being a thing ... I kinda even believe it's human nature (as somebody else already commented in this thread), but that it's on such a core/base element of the game (almost comparable to IRL racism): is repulsive. And imo it's so dire these days, and so heavily locked into a real niche for such a long time now (at least for the PvE endgame), that the only way out is via ArenaNet!
    And again the options they have are imo simple:
    1. They either change the way classes are such a core/base element in the game: i.e. make it really easy to switch to any character/profession in the game with all the stats/etc. that you've unlocked previously (again with the help of a good template and unlocking design)
    2. Or they really focus on PvE endgame balancing, making all professions desirable in endgame content: in other words META, or even better: optimal. Hint: start by optimizing the ones that haven't been META/optimal for so long now! (just a hint of course)

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    May I remind you that for the longest time only Chrono, Berserker and Tempest were even desired and that nowadays every class has at least one competitive DPS build, including Ranger, Engineer, Necromancer, Mesmer and Thief? Things are moving forward. Slab Berserker stats on it and get used to your damage rotation and you are good to go. The only real offenders are Warrior and Mesmer by virtue of being very powerful and unique stat bombs and having extremely effective skills. (Winds of Disenchantment/All Banners/Mace Skills/Certain Shouts for Warrior, Timewarp/Moa/Gravity Well/Temporal Curtain/Portal/Mimic/Continuum Split/Sigil if Inspiration for Chrono).

    Also note how the majority of the things that make Warrior and Mesmer powerful come from the core class, rather than the elite spec(s).

    If you want Alacrity and Quickness you either need a Chrono or a combination of Firebrand and Renegade, the latter option is just as valid but more complicated to build and build around when making a group. Nevermind the Chaos traitline which only really help Deadeyes, Elementalists with Arcane and Warriors.

    And before I forget: Comparing GW2 classes (Which are increasingly easier to level the longer you play thanks to an abundance of tomes) to real life problems like racism is - honestly - mind-boggling and wrong on so many levels.

    1. Or they really focus on PvE endgame balancing, making all professions desirable in endgame content: in other words META, or even better: optimal. Hint: start by optimizing the ones that haven't been META/optimal for so long now! (just a hint of course)

    Edit: You will always have one class perform better than another, it is impossible to balance a game with multiple classes without making them all identical. May I also ask which class you are referring to when talking about said class being undesirable? Because the last time I checked all powerbuilds work in fractals and the 4Scourges1Druid remains another popular option for fractals. Nevermind raids, where Necros are still among the top classes both for damage and support nowadays.

    Again - and as always - it boils down to: What works within the game's parameters =/= what the average player considers optimal

  • Deepcuts.9740Deepcuts.9740 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2018

    So, people discovered a round shaped (later called "a wheel") piece of wood works wonders to haul stuff.
    Then, they discovered at least 3 work even better. You get 4? You are in business.
    From then on, people expected 4 wheels on their wagons, seeing that is very efficient.
    Later on, someone discovered that having a roof on top of that wagon is a really nice addition to their wagon, protecting them from rain and snow. Keeping them warm and dry.
    From then on, people expected to have a roof over their heads on their wagons. Comfort is a nice to have bonus.
    Daredevils were still enjoying their convertibles, because they loved to feel the wind gusting over their faces while racing to the bottom of the hill.
    And everyone was happy.
    Then, an inventor came along and he was not very happy about having 4 wheel on his wagon. Down right mad about the idea of a roof.
    Started calling everyone elitists.
    The story goes that he is still trying to get to the new world of west indies in a canoe, without any paddles. He argued: "Our ancestors did the same!"

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