Raid Elitism Happening In Fractals - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raid Elitism Happening In Fractals

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  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2018

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Turin.6921 said:
    A non-issue. It is not the the raids leaking into fractals. It is just an evolution of the zerk meta from dungeons.

    Raid META builds actually work for fractals as well. So people less experienced people prefer to follow it to save time. It is not required and if you make your own non meta configured LFG it will fill in 2 minutes. Just like the old dungeon that constantly saw zerk parties or just like near HOT launch that you were constantly seeing 4 ripper on healer parties.

    It is a game. Optimal play will emerge and many people will prefer to go for the optimal even if unnecessary in the grand scheme of things. Every game will have the same evolution. Even in chess you find the same issues with standards plays and openings. It is not a real issue.

    To add to this I'd say it's also a problem with game balance. If druid is both mightstacker and healer and chrono has no competition for alacrity/quickness stacking, what's the point of playing other specs?

    The problem with the game, and it's present here since mentioned above dungeon meta, is that some specs are way too good, offer too much and it results in OP comp being overpowered. So it's not a rocket science people are expecting others to play such comp.

    It is improving though with every Elite Spec addition. In DPS from a zerk meta -> to a condi meta to now that both have roles depending on the encounter.
    Engis are a good support if you have condis in the party. Not if you have a power focused party. You can mix and match things way more than you could 2 years ago.

    That is the nature of the Spec system. Until sufficient Specs are added there will be voids in balance. Eventually a different tank and support Spec will be added and build diversity will increase and so on.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2018

    @Turin.6921 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Turin.6921 said:
    A non-issue. It is not the the raids leaking into fractals. It is just an evolution of the zerk meta from dungeons.

    Raid META builds actually work for fractals as well. So people less experienced people prefer to follow it to save time. It is not required and if you make your own non meta configured LFG it will fill in 2 minutes. Just like the old dungeon that constantly saw zerk parties or just like near HOT launch that you were constantly seeing 4 ripper on healer parties.

    It is a game. Optimal play will emerge and many people will prefer to go for the optimal even if unnecessary in the grand scheme of things. Every game will have the same evolution. Even in chess you find the same issues with standards plays and openings. It is not a real issue.

    To add to this I'd say it's also a problem with game balance. If druid is both mightstacker and healer and chrono has no competition for alacrity/quickness stacking, what's the point of playing other specs?

    The problem with the game, and it's present here since mentioned above dungeon meta, is that some specs are way too good, offer too much and it results in OP comp being overpowered. So it's not a rocket science people are expecting others to play such comp.

    It is improving though with every Elite Spec addition. In DPS from a zerk meta -> to a condi meta to now that both have roles depending on the encounter.
    Engis are a good support if you have condis in the party. Not if you have a power focused party. You can mix and match things way more than you could 2 years ago.

    That is the nature of the Spec system. Until sufficient Specs are added there will be voids in balance. Eventually a different tank and support Spec will be added and build diversity will increase and so on.

    DPS is still same role, no matter if it's power or condi. About engi, it's just 1 passive trait. You are still playing DPS role with a nice bonus.

    With raids and new fractals they wanted to shove into the game classic rpg roles. They kinda did, but the game is still unbalanced giving you basically 1 comp to play with. Just take minimal required number of meta supports and fill the rest with dps roles. That's anet directly creating hostile, elitist environment.

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2018

    I already replied to you comment in my previous post. You are just repeating the same thing now. If you do not see the progression in the matter compared to 2 or 3 years ago then you are being very unreasonable.

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Just take minimal required number of meta supports and fill the rest with dps roles. That's anet directly creating hostile, elitist environment.

    You should not confuse roles and optimal play with elitism and hostility. That is a grave misinterpretation. Again its a game roles and best practices will emerge and for many it is quite fun. You could have 15 different options per role and the same people would still be toxic. The only way to avoid that is to make everything viable even if you are playing with your nose and basically kill any essence of "game" in the process.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turin.6921 said:
    I already replied to you comment in my previous post. You are just repeating the same thing now. If you do not see the progression in the matter compared to 2 or 3 years ago then you are being very unreasonable.

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Just take minimal required number of meta supports and fill the rest with dps roles. That's anet directly creating hostile, elitist environment.

    You should not confuse roles and optimal play with elitism and hostility. That is a grave misinterpretation. Again its a game roles and best practices will emerge and for many it is quite fun. You could have 15 different options per role and the same people would still be toxic. The only way to avoid that is to make everything viable even if you are playing with your nose and basically kill any essence of "game" in the process.

    I neved denied a progress was made. We shifted from 1 semisupport 4 dps to 2 dedicated supports and 3 dps.

    Problem is, within the roles, you still have very limited options. Druid and Chrono are simply to good. I admit for dps, you have much more variety now.

    I woud love to see similar diversity and progression in support roles but what was established in HoT is still there after PoF.

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2018

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Turin.6921 said:
    I already replied to you comment in my previous post. You are just repeating the same thing now. If you do not see the progression in the matter compared to 2 or 3 years ago then you are being very unreasonable.

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Just take minimal required number of meta supports and fill the rest with dps roles. That's anet directly creating hostile, elitist environment.

    You should not confuse roles and optimal play with elitism and hostility. That is a grave misinterpretation. Again its a game roles and best practices will emerge and for many it is quite fun. You could have 15 different options per role and the same people would still be toxic. The only way to avoid that is to make everything viable even if you are playing with your nose and basically kill any essence of "game" in the process.

    I neved denied a progress was made. We shifted from 1 semisupport 4 dps to 2 dedicated supports and 3 dps.

    Problem is, within the roles, you still have very limited options. Druid and Chrono are simply to good. I admit for dps, you have much more variety now.

    I woud love to see similar diversity and progression in support roles but what was established in HoT is still there after PoF.

    Just requires a bit of patience. I think that is what they wanted from the scourge and barrier but failed (for now at least). So they are working on it. I think they want to avoid just making Specs that are carbon copies to what is already there. Plus if they change an existing Spec to be as good a support as a chrono by giving it the same things, for example, then options for future Specs diminish.

    Unfortunately big changes only come with expansions. Plus they have to balance for multiple game modes. So voids in the balance will be there.

    As long as things are progressing and new comps come up, albeit very slowly, we can still have fun with it. They finally manage to fix the DPS part (just now actually since condi and power i feel only truly worked as they should be after the December patch). Now it should be healer and support time to be fixed and extended.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Yes, unfortunately raiders are bleeding into fractals. This is because raids are weekly content and they have nothing else to do polluting more laid back modes with their unwanted attitudes.

    There a pretty ez fix to said problem. Make your own group :D

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2018

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Yes, unfortunately raiders are bleeding into fractals. This is because raids are weekly content and they have nothing else to do polluting more laid back modes with their unwanted attitudes.

    There a pretty ez fix to said problem. Make your own group :D

    Unless I got as at least 3 man premade, what stops other players from highjacking my party?

  • The most annoying thing that I encounter are people hijacking my LFGs. With the exception of CM100, I make very minimal LFGs. "T4s" or "T4 pots" or "Recs". Prospective players, however see this as some form of absent-mindedness instead of a deliberate decision, so they'll change the LFG without consulting me. One time, I got into a silent fight with another player, who kept changing the LFG after I would change it back. Aside from this, I don't get many problems forming my own groups.

    But I have noticed that the amount of Chrono/Drood/BS parties has been on the rise. Which is odd, because fractals haven't suddenly become harder. People really get stuck in this mindset.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

    Nope i don't.
    What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

    Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

    numbers are just random. just follow the logic

    • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
    • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
    • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

    And so on.
    Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

    And remember the most important thing.
    If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.
    I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

    And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

    If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

    In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals. Yes, playing efficiently may be faster, if whole team understands and follows this concept. But playing slower is also proper way as long as you don't fail mechanics and manage to kill the boss.

    Dps checks arent only "kill something in x time or else u wipe" which funnily enough exists. Its also, the fact that the longer that u take to kill something the more chances u have to kitten up something and wipe. Not you personally but everyone in the group.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Yes, unfortunately raiders are bleeding into fractals. This is because raids are weekly content and they have nothing else to do polluting more laid back modes with their unwanted attitudes.

    There a pretty ez fix to said problem. Make your own group :D

    Unless I got as at least 3 man premade, what stops other players from highjacking my party?

    That works both ways.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Yes, unfortunately raiders are bleeding into fractals. This is because raids are weekly content and they have nothing else to do polluting more laid back modes with their unwanted attitudes.

    There a pretty ez fix to said problem. Make your own group :D

    Unless I got as at least 3 man premade, what stops other players from highjacking my party?

    That works both ways.

    Show me cases of power necros joining meta LFGs and changing description or kicking players for not playing power necros.

  • Faaris.8013Faaris.8013 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Show me cases of power necros joining meta LFGs and changing description or kicking players for not playing power necros.

    Maybe not that, but my guild mates and me have kicked wannabe elitists from our group. We expect you to know your stuff and have pots and food, that's it. We got a guy who was trying to take over our group and making demands and playing this whole alpha-thing. I explained to him that he and us doesn't work because he's trying to take over the group and we do this every day together and that we are happy like this. Then we kicked him. I think we didn't ask for a chrono or so, and he insisted we need one.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Yes, unfortunately raiders are bleeding into fractals. This is because raids are weekly content and they have nothing else to do polluting more laid back modes with their unwanted attitudes.

    There a pretty ez fix to said problem. Make your own group :D

    Unless I got as at least 3 man premade, what stops other players from highjacking my party?

    That works both ways.

    Show me cases of power necros joining meta LFGs and changing description or kicking players for not playing power necros.

    Nobody stops them.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2018

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Show me cases of power necros joining meta LFGs and changing description or kicking players for not playing power necros.

    Happened to me several times - not only necros but other classes for sure.
    But much more common is joining of players with classes/builds/no kps/no experience bìtching around including insults why the lfg was set up like this. Those people often are very abusive in terms of language. I don't know but if I see a lfg I don't like I personally don't join & care at all (except it's a big violation against the game rules like racism). I let players play their game, I want to play mine and I want others to respect my will as well as I respect theirs.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Faaris.8013 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Show me cases of power necros joining meta LFGs and changing description or kicking players for not playing power necros.

    Maybe not that, but my guild mates and me have kicked wannabe elitists from our group. We expect you to know your stuff and have pots and food, that's it. We got a guy who was trying to take over our group and making demands and playing this whole alpha-thing. I explained to him that he and us doesn't work because he's trying to take over the group and we do this every day together and that we are happy like this. Then we kicked him. I think we didn't ask for a chrono or so, and he insisted we need one.

    Are you seriously asking for food in a non-meta party?

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

    Nope i don't.
    What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

    Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

    numbers are just random. just follow the logic

    • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
    • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
    • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

    And so on.
    Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

    And remember the most important thing.
    If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.
    I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

    And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

    If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

    In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals. Yes, playing efficiently may be faster, if whole team understands and follows this concept. But playing slower is also proper way as long as you don't fail mechanics and manage to kill the boss.

    This is the DPS check for him, and it's also the DPS check for most people:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:
    If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.

    Not everyone has the whole day to cater to people who don't want to play efficiently. No one's forcing anyone to play meta builds. But if i want to do T4+recs in one hour (because that's usually the time i have to play before reset), then i don't want to have a Knight's Elementalist dragging the group down.
    I don't even care for classes or check builds, or even see if they have the right food or anything. I simply expect people to want to be efficient. If they don't, and the group starts failing encounters too often, then, yes, i vote to kick.
    I shouldn't be hindered from completing content because someone doesn't want to be on par with the requirements of the content.

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

    Nope i don't.
    What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

    Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

    numbers are just random. just follow the logic

    • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
    • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
    • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

    And so on.
    Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

    And remember the most important thing.
    If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.
    I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

    And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

    If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

    In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals. Yes, playing efficiently may be faster, if whole team understands and follows this concept. But playing slower is also proper way as long as you don't fail mechanics and manage to kill the boss.

    This is the DPS check for him, and it's also the DPS check for most people:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:
    If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.

    Not everyone has the whole day to cater to people who don't want to play efficiently. No one's forcing anyone to play meta builds. But if i want to do T4+recs in one hour (because that's usually the time i have to play before reset), then i don't want to have a Knight's Elementalist dragging the group down.
    I don't even care for classes or check builds, or even see if they have the right food or anything. I simply expect people to want to be efficient. If they don't, and the group starts failing encounters too often, then, yes, i vote to kick.
    I shouldn't be hindered from completing content because someone doesn't want to be on par with the requirements of the content.

    You probably quoted the wrong person or didn't understand the part you quoted.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Yes, unfortunately raiders are bleeding into fractals. This is because raids are weekly content and they have nothing else to do polluting more laid back modes with their unwanted attitudes.

    There a pretty ez fix to said problem. Make your own group :D

    Unless I got as at least 3 man premade, what stops other players from highjacking my party?

    That works both ways.

    Show me cases of power necros joining meta LFGs and changing description or kicking players for not playing power necros.

    Nobody stops them.

    Exactly. That's the problem. Game needs party leader system. So people actually have control over who they play with.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

    Nope i don't.
    What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

    Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

    numbers are just random. just follow the logic

    • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
    • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
    • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

    And so on.
    Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

    And remember the most important thing.
    If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.
    I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

    And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

    If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

    In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals. Yes, playing efficiently may be faster, if whole team understands and follows this concept. But playing slower is also proper way as long as you don't fail mechanics and manage to kill the boss.

    This is the DPS check for him, and it's also the DPS check for most people:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:
    If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.

    Not everyone has the whole day to cater to people who don't want to play efficiently. No one's forcing anyone to play meta builds. But if i want to do T4+recs in one hour (because that's usually the time i have to play before reset), then i don't want to have a Knight's Elementalist dragging the group down.
    I don't even care for classes or check builds, or even see if they have the right food or anything. I simply expect people to want to be efficient. If they don't, and the group starts failing encounters too often, then, yes, i vote to kick.
    I shouldn't be hindered from completing content because someone doesn't want to be on par with the requirements of the content.

    You probably quoted the wrong person or didn't understand the part you quoted.

    Or maybe you didn't understand my post?
    @Kheldorn.5123 was saying that there isn't a DPS check in fractals. I was saying that the fact you had already said you wanted to complete fractals in under 30 minutes, that is the dps check. People ask for meta builds, even in raids, because of time constraints, not really because it's impossible to do without.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I simply expect people to want to be efficient.

    And literally nobody has any obligation to follow your expectation unless you're playing premade group.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

    Nope i don't.
    What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

    Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

    numbers are just random. just follow the logic

    • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
    • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
    • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

    And so on.
    Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

    And remember the most important thing.
    If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.
    I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

    And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

    If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

    In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals. Yes, playing efficiently may be faster, if whole team understands and follows this concept. But playing slower is also proper way as long as you don't fail mechanics and manage to kill the boss.

    This is the DPS check for him, and it's also the DPS check for most people:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:
    If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.

    Not everyone has the whole day to cater to people who don't want to play efficiently. No one's forcing anyone to play meta builds. But if i want to do T4+recs in one hour (because that's usually the time i have to play before reset), then i don't want to have a Knight's Elementalist dragging the group down.
    I don't even care for classes or check builds, or even see if they have the right food or anything. I simply expect people to want to be efficient. If they don't, and the group starts failing encounters too often, then, yes, i vote to kick.
    I shouldn't be hindered from completing content because someone doesn't want to be on par with the requirements of the content.

    You probably quoted the wrong person or didn't understand the part you quoted.

    Or maybe you didn't understand my post?
    @Kheldorn.5123 was saying that there isn't a DPS check in fractals. I was saying that the fact you had already said you wanted to complete fractals in under 30 minutes, that is the dps check. People ask for meta builds, even in raids, because of time constraints, not really because it's impossible to do without.

    It's not a dps check, it's exactly the elitism you are presenting here. You are creating artificial gate for content which devs never implemented. This is something you can create as your personal goal for your premade, not in a pug group. Unless you are out of reality.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    I simply expect people to want to be efficient.

    And literally nobody has any obligation to follow your expectation unless you're playing premade group.

    And that's why if they're underperforming, and the group is faltering, they get kicked. I'm also not obliged to carry anyone, nor is anyone obliged to carry me, or anyone else.
    And that's why people who care more than i do will ask for certain roles.
    I don't ask for any roles, because me and my brother fill the pertinent ones (chrono and druid) already so as to avoid issues. But then if a person can't even do enough DPS to stay above the two full support builds. They're a hindrance. And yeah a lot of times we still carry them, other times they need to go, depends on the rest of the group.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

    Nope i don't.
    What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

    Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

    numbers are just random. just follow the logic

    • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
    • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
    • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

    And so on.
    Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

    And remember the most important thing.
    If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.
    I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

    And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

    If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

    In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals. Yes, playing efficiently may be faster, if whole team understands and follows this concept. But playing slower is also proper way as long as you don't fail mechanics and manage to kill the boss.

    This is the DPS check for him, and it's also the DPS check for most people:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:
    If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.

    Not everyone has the whole day to cater to people who don't want to play efficiently. No one's forcing anyone to play meta builds. But if i want to do T4+recs in one hour (because that's usually the time i have to play before reset), then i don't want to have a Knight's Elementalist dragging the group down.
    I don't even care for classes or check builds, or even see if they have the right food or anything. I simply expect people to want to be efficient. If they don't, and the group starts failing encounters too often, then, yes, i vote to kick.
    I shouldn't be hindered from completing content because someone doesn't want to be on par with the requirements of the content.

    You probably quoted the wrong person or didn't understand the part you quoted.

    Or maybe you didn't understand my post?
    @Kheldorn.5123 was saying that there isn't a DPS check in fractals. I was saying that the fact you had already said you wanted to complete fractals in under 30 minutes, that is the dps check. People ask for meta builds, even in raids, because of time constraints, not really because it's impossible to do without.

    It's not a dps check, it's exactly the elitism you are presenting here. You are creating artificial gate for content which devs never implemented. This is something you can create as your personal goal for your premade, not in a pug group. Unless you are out of reality.

    No, it's not elitism. If i have 30 minutes to do something, then i want to do it in 30 minutes. Simple as that, i shouldn't have to settle because you did.
    It's not elitism, it's me managing the time constraints i have. I'm not obliged in any form to cater to your whims, as you're not obliged to cater to mine. So when i do a group, i try to find people that will allow me to complete the content within my constraints.
    You do the same.
    Your argument is like saying that everyone that has a Tinder app should go on a date with everyone the app matches with them, regardless of their own taste and wants.
    Because that's what the LFG is there for. To match you with other people to do a certain activity.

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

    Nope i don't.
    What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

    Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

    numbers are just random. just follow the logic

    • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
    • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
    • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

    And so on.
    Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

    And remember the most important thing.
    If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.
    I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

    And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

    If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

    In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals. Yes, playing efficiently may be faster, if whole team understands and follows this concept. But playing slower is also proper way as long as you don't fail mechanics and manage to kill the boss.

    This is the DPS check for him, and it's also the DPS check for most people:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:
    If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.

    Not everyone has the whole day to cater to people who don't want to play efficiently. No one's forcing anyone to play meta builds. But if i want to do T4+recs in one hour (because that's usually the time i have to play before reset), then i don't want to have a Knight's Elementalist dragging the group down.
    I don't even care for classes or check builds, or even see if they have the right food or anything. I simply expect people to want to be efficient. If they don't, and the group starts failing encounters too often, then, yes, i vote to kick.
    I shouldn't be hindered from completing content because someone doesn't want to be on par with the requirements of the content.

    You probably quoted the wrong person or didn't understand the part you quoted.

    Or maybe you didn't understand my post?

    So were you supporting what i stated in a not so proper way?
    You basically stated what i said previously, and in that part of the quoted message too.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

    Nope i don't.
    What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

    Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

    numbers are just random. just follow the logic

    • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
    • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
    • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

    And so on.
    Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

    And remember the most important thing.
    If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.
    I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

    And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

    If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

    In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals. Yes, playing efficiently may be faster, if whole team understands and follows this concept. But playing slower is also proper way as long as you don't fail mechanics and manage to kill the boss.

    This is the DPS check for him, and it's also the DPS check for most people:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:
    If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.

    Not everyone has the whole day to cater to people who don't want to play efficiently. No one's forcing anyone to play meta builds. But if i want to do T4+recs in one hour (because that's usually the time i have to play before reset), then i don't want to have a Knight's Elementalist dragging the group down.
    I don't even care for classes or check builds, or even see if they have the right food or anything. I simply expect people to want to be efficient. If they don't, and the group starts failing encounters too often, then, yes, i vote to kick.
    I shouldn't be hindered from completing content because someone doesn't want to be on par with the requirements of the content.

    You probably quoted the wrong person or didn't understand the part you quoted.

    Or maybe you didn't understand my post?

    So were you supporting what i stated in a not so proper way?
    You basically stated what i said previously, and in that part of the quoted message too.

    ...
    Dude, i wasn't replying to you, i was replying to Kheldorn saying you already had stated your DPS check, as in your time restrictions...
    Reading comprehension much?

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2018

    I was confused because it was not a dps check, since the equipment is not necessarily related to skill ( especially here in GW2, i would say ), but now I understand what you consider about DPS check ( which is not ).

    To explain things better:

    When you want to do fractals or raid you have some ways to make you up your party of elitists as you:

    • Equipment check
    • LI ( if raid )
    • Class/Build Check
    • Eventually Title
    • Etc...

    But you can't be totally sure that the one you allowed to join your group is performant because

    • It could have been boosted ( pay for runs )
    • It could have been carried ( not so skilled but lucky to find good groups ).
    • It could be skilled, but not with this class which is new for him ( even though he has the right build/equipment ).

    Eventually, you will have to kick him and looking for someone else ( it's a possibility, if the one you invited sucks ).

    That's why when i talk about the right

    • Class
    • Build
    • Equip
    • Consumables
    • Etc...

    I mean that there are some ways to limit the RNG ( the player's skill and knowledge ).

  • Vulf.3098Vulf.3098 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals. Yes, playing efficiently may be faster, if whole team understands and follows this concept. But playing slower is also proper way as long as you don't fail mechanics and manage to kill the boss.

    Pugs want a druid because it removes errors from the group in the off chance of a wipe.
    If we are talking time efficiency in clears the best comp is chrono and 4 dps.

    I get the chrono and druid in pugs but BS has not been meta in pugs since the nerf. It is actually a dps loss to run that over an Ele, Holo or DH in that slot.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

    Nope i don't.
    What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

    Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

    numbers are just random. just follow the logic

    • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
    • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
    • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

    And so on.
    Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

    And remember the most important thing.
    If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.
    I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

    And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

    If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

    In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals. Yes, playing efficiently may be faster, if whole team understands and follows this concept. But playing slower is also proper way as long as you don't fail mechanics and manage to kill the boss.

    This is the DPS check for him, and it's also the DPS check for most people:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:
    If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.

    Not everyone has the whole day to cater to people who don't want to play efficiently. No one's forcing anyone to play meta builds. But if i want to do T4+recs in one hour (because that's usually the time i have to play before reset), then i don't want to have a Knight's Elementalist dragging the group down.
    I don't even care for classes or check builds, or even see if they have the right food or anything. I simply expect people to want to be efficient. If they don't, and the group starts failing encounters too often, then, yes, i vote to kick.
    I shouldn't be hindered from completing content because someone doesn't want to be on par with the requirements of the content.

    You probably quoted the wrong person or didn't understand the part you quoted.

    Or maybe you didn't understand my post?
    @Kheldorn.5123 was saying that there isn't a DPS check in fractals. I was saying that the fact you had already said you wanted to complete fractals in under 30 minutes, that is the dps check. People ask for meta builds, even in raids, because of time constraints, not really because it's impossible to do without.

    I don't think it's about time constraints that much. It just isn't fun to wipe over and over again on the same content you've completed smoothly time and again.

  • JVJD.4912JVJD.4912 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2018

    Elitism never caught up on dungeons, they will not catch up in fractals
    There are more laid back groups than them
    They will be waiting considerably longer or end up with trolls sabotaging their runs ( its what ppl used to do back in the day, need a vote to kick right?? good luck)

    Eventually they will regress to their guilds and leave randoms alone

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Yes, unfortunately raiders are bleeding into fractals. This is because raids are weekly content and they have nothing else to do polluting more laid back modes with their unwanted attitudes.

    There a pretty ez fix to said problem. Make your own group :D

    Unless I got as at least 3 man premade, what stops other players from highjacking my party?

    That works both ways.

    Show me cases of power necros joining meta LFGs and changing description or kicking players for not playing power necros.

    Nobody stops them.

    Exactly. That's the problem. Game needs party leader system. So people actually have control over who they play with.

    Sure why not

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2018

    @JVJD.4912 said:
    Elitism never caught up on dungeons, they will not catch up in fractals
    There are more laid back groups than them
    They will be waiting considerably longer or end up with trolls sabotaging their runs ( its what ppl used to do back in the day, need a vote to kick right?? good luck)

    Eventually they will regress to their guilds and leave randoms alone

    You understand that even when i ask for specific classes/builds it very rarely takes longer than 5 minutes to fill a spot, right?
    "Elitist" groups fill quite fast if the people in there aren't jerks.
    Its more likely that you make a group with an "alternate build" and start a fractal only to get all the "elitists" leaving the group after 2 attempts because "someone" is dragging them down.

    Also, you do realize that you'd go to LFG for CoF and you'd have like 5 parties asking for full zerker warriors ONLY. It was way more toxic, cancerous and elitist than fractals have ever been.

  • Vulf.3098Vulf.3098 Member ✭✭✭

    If t4 groups are wiping it is not due to that one person running an alternate build. Just saying.

  • Faaris.8013Faaris.8013 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vulf.3098 said:
    If t4 groups are wiping it is not due to that one person running an alternate build. Just saying.

    Then try to do Volcanic or Mai Trin with 4 dps and one healer who doesn't heal. Good luck.

  • Vulf.3098Vulf.3098 Member ✭✭✭

    @Faaris.8013 said:

    @Vulf.3098 said:
    If t4 groups are wiping it is not due to that one person running an alternate build. Just saying.

    Then try to do Volcanic or Mai Trin with 4 dps and one healer who doesn't heal. Good luck.

    You say that like it is not possible to do. Both those fractals can easily be 3 manned.

  • Dont like Etilism too... but it happens in Fractals If u wont these PPL in a Group create ur own and take 2 Friends with u. Anyway im Running always T4 Fractals with these Group Formation: BS, Chrono,Druid, 2xDPS. Sometimes smooth and fast and othertimes PPL acting like kids ^^. Anyway the first Problem is Read the LfG ;)

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2018

    @Faaris.8013 said:

    @Vulf.3098 said:
    If t4 groups are wiping it is not due to that one person running an alternate build. Just saying.

    Then try to do Volcanic or Mai Trin with 4 dps and one healer who doesn't heal. Good luck.

    Ever heard of guard having wall of reflections, for example? Sometimes it's sad to see people not knowing their classes properly. Every class has huge potential for different encounters and basic skills from pre-HoT are still working, quelle surprise!
    And yeah, skilled players are able to kill bosses without relying on a healer in T4 and they are not always organized.

  • Vallun.2071Vallun.2071 Member ✭✭✭

    How is a 5 man comp taken from raids? Fractals meta has come about completely independent of raids. The builds like chrono and druid are just the strongest builds for PvE team play in that they give the most boons/buffs/utility per slot of that comp. So naturally a 5 man comp will want them. With that being said, fractals are becoming more like raids as the new fractals that are coming out with raid-like mechanics such as break bars and certain-person-gets-the-bomb it becomes more apparent that people need to know their roles. Anet seems to support more elitism in fractals now, so if you don't then the lfg for non comped t4 groups and recommendeds still exist for casuals

  • I don't see a problem in having a winning team you seem fit. If you don't like it make your own group. Problem solved. I'm not an elitist but wasting time to get a win is, well, wasteful. Noone want to spend hrs on something they already spent hours on perfecting.

  • Blood.5607Blood.5607 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

    Nope i don't.
    What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

    Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

    numbers are just random. just follow the logic

    • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
    • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
    • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

    And so on.
    Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

    And remember the most important thing.
    If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.
    I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

    And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

    If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

    In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals.

    BAZING.... Actually 100cm has a dps check. :^)

  • @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Faaris.8013 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Show me cases of power necros joining meta LFGs and changing description or kicking players for not playing power necros.

    Maybe not that, but my guild mates and me have kicked wannabe elitists from our group. We expect you to know your stuff and have pots and food, that's it. We got a guy who was trying to take over our group and making demands and playing this whole alpha-thing. I explained to him that he and us doesn't work because he's trying to take over the group and we do this every day together and that we are happy like this. Then we kicked him. I think we didn't ask for a chrono or so, and he insisted we need one.

    Are you seriously asking for food in a non-meta party?

    Absolutely. It doesn't have to be Hoity Toity Multiple Gold Per Hour BiS Raid Food, but it does have to be enough to show you take your part seriously. It's a gesture of respect for the time of the 4 other people in the party. Same with pots.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vulf.3098 said:
    If t4 groups are wiping it is not due to that one person running an alternate build. Just saying.

    You'd be amazed how one person can make a huge difference.
    I mean, if you have 3 dpsers on a group 2 are doing barely good damage, and one is doing lower than he should, then the group eventually will wipe. Or at least take 3x as long as it should.

    You can wipe 10 times in a row, kick one guy and you can make it. I've actually finished bosses with 4 after wiping several times with 5 (granted, this has less to do with build but more with knowledge of mechanics, but AR also is there to try and force people to acquire that knowledge).
    If the healer has to stop every 5 seconds to ress a guy getting down, if you have someone messing mechanics up (like drawing mai trin away from the electric field), etc. It'll be faster without them.

    @Faaris.8013 said:

    @Vulf.3098 said:
    If t4 groups are wiping it is not due to that one person running an alternate build. Just saying.

    Then try to do Volcanic or Mai Trin with 4 dps and one healer who doesn't heal. Good luck.

    LOL i'd say more, try and do the cat golem on Uncategorized without tears with that group. Or a quick burn of the berzerker in molten boss without a healer and quickness.
    Alternate builds might work, but it's simply going to take too long.> @Sister Saxifrage.7361 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Faaris.8013 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Show me cases of power necros joining meta LFGs and changing description or kicking players for not playing power necros.

    Maybe not that, but my guild mates and me have kicked wannabe elitists from our group. We expect you to know your stuff and have pots and food, that's it. We got a guy who was trying to take over our group and making demands and playing this whole alpha-thing. I explained to him that he and us doesn't work because he's trying to take over the group and we do this every day together and that we are happy like this. Then we kicked him. I think we didn't ask for a chrono or so, and he insisted we need one.

    Are you seriously asking for food in a non-meta party?

    Absolutely. It doesn't have to be Hoity Toity Multiple Gold Per Hour BiS Raid Food, but it does have to be enough to show you take your part seriously. It's a gesture of respect for the time of the 4 other people in the party. Same with pots.

    So is joining a group according to what they are asking. Or not, if it's not what they are asking.
    Also making sure your build can at least bring something to a group is also a gesture of respect to the rest of the group. I mean, i could definitely go in with food, omnipotion, and bring a guy with full greens. I could definitely pull of surviving Agony in most fractals, since most of the old ones have very well defined sources of Agony that can be blocked/dodged. And yet i'd be doing a disservice to the group.
    Same thing if i take like a Knight's build on a DH or something. Sure i won't die, and will stick around, but will probably not be doing that much in terms of damage.
    I'm all up for alternate builds. But make sure they work!

  • Vulf.3098Vulf.3098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2018

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:
    You'd be amazed how one person can make a huge difference.
    I mean, if you have 3 dpsers on a group 2 are doing barely good damage, and one is doing lower than he should, then the group eventually will wipe. Or at least take 3x as long as it should.

    You can wipe 10 times in a row, kick one guy and you can make it. I've actually finished bosses with 4 after wiping several times with 5 (granted, this has less to do with build but more with knowledge of mechanics, but AR also is there to try and force people to acquire that knowledge).
    If the healer has to stop every 5 seconds to ress a guy getting down, if you have someone messing mechanics up (like drawing mai trin away from the electric field), etc. It'll be faster without them.

    That has less to do with the minstrel Thief in your group and more to do with people not knowing anything about their class or the fractal specific mechanics which was the entire point of my post.

    I have run t4's with so many unoptimal builds across all specs in the game and have yet to wipe purely because dps was "too low".

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:
    LOL i'd say more, try and do the cat golem on Uncategorized without tears with that group. Or a quick burn of the berzerker in molten boss without a healer and quickness.

    You can cheese that entire fight with zero with a single necro and flesh wurm. 5 ele's were meta on molten boss for a long time until it got mega nerfed about a year ago.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vulf.3098 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:
    You'd be amazed how one person can make a huge difference.
    I mean, if you have 3 dpsers on a group 2 are doing barely good damage, and one is doing lower than he should, then the group eventually will wipe. Or at least take 3x as long as it should.

    You can wipe 10 times in a row, kick one guy and you can make it. I've actually finished bosses with 4 after wiping several times with 5 (granted, this has less to do with build but more with knowledge of mechanics, but AR also is there to try and force people to acquire that knowledge).
    If the healer has to stop every 5 seconds to ress a guy getting down, if you have someone messing mechanics up (like drawing mai trin away from the electric field), etc. It'll be faster without them.

    That has less to do with the minstrel Thief in your group and more to do with people not knowing anything about their class or the fractal specific mechanics which was the entire point of my post.

    I have run t4's with so many unoptimal builds across all specs in the game and have yet to wipe purely because dps was "too low".

    A lot of times you don't understand that you're wiping because pvp is too low... Because there's nothing saying oh, time's up.
    But there's stuff like cumulative damage from bosses, or add spawns, etc that will make your run harder the longer you're there. For example, the longer you take to phase the boss on Twilight Oasis, the longer you'll have to deal with the damage mechanics in there, and the easier it is for someone to mess up, and, especially with vindicators errors will compound and kill everyone.

    But yeah, i said it before the bigger problem is that it will make it take longer. And honestly, if a guy thinks it's a good idea to take a minstrel's Thief... Well then he's probably the same guy that doesn't really know his class, and will - like you said yourself - mess everything up.
    Because you know what happens if you really know your class? And want to make the most out of it's strengths? You'll end up with a build that's either the meta build, or something really close.
    Sure you might think Assassin's or Soldier's instead of berzerker's, but overall you'll most likely end up with the same build. And yeah, a Soldier's DragonHunter won't do as much damage as a Berzerker's. But it probably will do enough to not be a hinderance, if he knows his class.

  • Vulf.3098Vulf.3098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2018

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Vulf.3098 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:
    You'd be amazed how one person can make a huge difference.
    I mean, if you have 3 dpsers on a group 2 are doing barely good damage, and one is doing lower than he should, then the group eventually will wipe. Or at least take 3x as long as it should.

    You can wipe 10 times in a row, kick one guy and you can make it. I've actually finished bosses with 4 after wiping several times with 5 (granted, this has less to do with build but more with knowledge of mechanics, but AR also is there to try and force people to acquire that knowledge).
    If the healer has to stop every 5 seconds to ress a guy getting down, if you have someone messing mechanics up (like drawing mai trin away from the electric field), etc. It'll be faster without them.

    That has less to do with the minstrel Thief in your group and more to do with people not knowing anything about their class or the fractal specific mechanics which was the entire point of my post.

    I have run t4's with so many unoptimal builds across all specs in the game and have yet to wipe purely because dps was "too low".

    A lot of times you don't understand that you're wiping because pvp is too low... Because there's nothing saying oh, time's up.
    But there's stuff like cumulative damage from bosses, or add spawns, etc that will make your run harder the longer you're there. For example, the longer you take to phase the boss on Twilight Oasis, the longer you'll have to deal with the damage mechanics in there, and the easier it is for someone to mess up, and, especially with vindicators errors will compound and kill everyone.

    But yeah, i said it before the bigger problem is that it will make it take longer. And honestly, if a guy thinks it's a good idea to take a minstrel's Thief... Well then he's probably the same guy that doesn't really know his class, and will - like you said yourself - mess everything up.
    Because you know what happens if you really know your class? And want to make the most out of it's strengths? You'll end up with a build that's either the meta build, or something really close.
    Sure you might think Assassin's or Soldier's instead of berzerker's, but overall you'll most likely end up with the same build. And yeah, a Soldier's DragonHunter won't do as much damage as a Berzerker's. But it probably will do enough to not be a hinderance, if he knows his class.

    Mechanics before Dps. Minstrel Thief was an example that one bad build is not going to suddenly make t4's impossible so lets not pretend it does. Not saying you should or shouldn't run meta because that is your own decision.

    As for Twilight Oasis I have solo'd it a couple times already first with Trailblazer Necro with Aristocracy Runes and again with Vipers + Aristocracy.

  • @Vulf.3098 said:
    As for Twilight Oasis I have solo'd it a couple times already first with Trailblazer Necro with Aristocracy Runes and again with Vipers + Aristocracy.

    Well done :)
    Which emphasizes the on-topic point: knowing the mechanics is more important than the team comp or anyone's build. There might be elitist LFGs, but people can ignore them and join/start groups that care more about other things. Either way of running the content is fine; the problems only start when someone insists on imposing their way on others.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2018

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Vulf.3098 said:
    As for Twilight Oasis I have solo'd it a couple times already first with Trailblazer Necro with Aristocracy Runes and again with Vipers + Aristocracy.

    Well done :)
    Which emphasizes the on-topic point: knowing the mechanics is more important than the team comp or anyone's build. There might be elitist LFGs, but people can ignore them and join/start groups that care more about other things. Either way of running the content is fine; the problems only start when someone insists on imposing their way on others.

    I'm reminded by an argument by metapushers about 4 years ago ... where some of them soloed Arah Dungeon with a Bow bear in some defensive gear. Somehow, they were all proud of 'proving' how important meta was by this little demonstration. A pretty self-gratifying smirk come over my face; Oh yes, way to demonstrate the necessity of meta ... by soloing the hardest content (at the time) with the worst possible build :expressionless:

    Seems we are seeing a little of this with some posters in this thread; indeed what you say is correct, mechanics trumps build, always. The metapushers already proved that (at their own expense, which only made the point sweeter)

    Elitism will not go away; it's how players handle it and how they interact with elitist players that will help avoid it. I'm all for these players; after all, they are just playing how they want, just like anyone else should be.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Vulf.3098Vulf.3098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2018

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Vulf.3098 said:
    As for Twilight Oasis I have solo'd it a couple times already first with Trailblazer Necro with Aristocracy Runes and again with Vipers + Aristocracy.

    Well done :)
    Which emphasizes the on-topic point: knowing the mechanics is more important than the team comp or anyone's build. There might be elitist LFGs, but people can ignore them and join/start groups that care more about other things. Either way of running the content is fine; the problems only start when someone insists on imposing their way on others.

    I'm reminded by an argument by metapushers about 4 years ago ... where some of them soloed Arah Dungeon with a Bow bear in some defensive gear. Somehow, they were all proud of 'proving' how important meta was by this little demonstration. A pretty self-gratifying smirk come over my face; Oh yes, way to demonstrate the necessity of meta ... by soloing the hardest content (at the time) with the worst possible build :expressionless:

    Seems we are seeing a little of this with some posters in this thread; indeed what you say is correct, mechanics trumps build, always. The metapushers already proved that (at their own expense, which only made the point sweeter)

    Elitism will not go away; it's how players handle it and how they interact with elitist players that will help avoid it. I'm all for these players; after all, they are just playing how they want, just like anyone else should be.

    Most of the bosses in Arah were buggy as hell back then (Belka, Lupi, and Brie still are) to where you could exploit ability stacking into specific spots or instantly kill them with reflects.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Ever heard of guard having wall of reflections, for example? Sometimes it's sad to see people not knowing their classes properly. Every class has huge potential for different encounters and basic skills from pre-HoT are still working, quelle surprise!

    There was a time when reflect skills are highly valued. Nowadays I'm just grateful too see one used in fractal. And yes, it's sad to see when a player doesn't realize the potential of the class can offer or understanding the mechanics to adapt according to situation. Lucky ones get pointers or guidance, but majority will just be left alone and hope they realize it through exp.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood.5607 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

    Nope i don't.
    What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

    Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

    numbers are just random. just follow the logic

    • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
    • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
    • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

    And so on.
    Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

    And remember the most important thing.
    If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.
    I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

    And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

    If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

    In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals.

    BAZING.... Actually 100cm has a dps check. :^)

    100cm is by design made into 5-man raid. We are talking about standard T4s in pug environment here :)

  • Faaris.8013Faaris.8013 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2018

    @Vulf.3098 said:

    @Faaris.8013 said:

    @Vulf.3098 said:
    If t4 groups are wiping it is not due to that one person running an alternate build. Just saying.

    Then try to do Volcanic or Mai Trin with 4 dps and one healer who doesn't heal. Good luck.

    You say that like it is not possible to do. Both those fractals can easily be 3 manned.

    Then you better enter with 5 dps and without healer, at least people then know they have to trait accordingly. When I have a healer in the group, I need to trust him/her and trait for full dps. Yesterday we got a "healer" druid and the dps players quickly realized we either kick or change our builds. I ended up playing Volcanic with self-healing and extra health pool. Should have kicked and get a real healer. I never said you cannot do these fractals without healer, I said that a group can wipe if the healer runs an alternate build and doesn't do his job. Then you have to switch your builds and playstyle and basically 4-man it. That's what we did yesterday, we were 5 players but 4-manned Volcanic.

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