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Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread


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Raid Elitism has been slowly but surely seeping into fractals for quite some time now. Each day, there are more and more LFGs posted with descriptions such as: "Need Chrono - Need Heal Druid". These LFGs are in attempts to form 5 man raid meta teams, for fractals. I assume this is happening because of these reasons:

  • Players can't or don't want to afford multiple setups on most characters. For the purpose of saving resources, they gear for raids because it is the most difficult content.
  • Raid builds are designed to support each other and all DPS oriented raid builds require a healing druid. They have to bring in that healing druid.
  • Since the raid DPS and heal druid are present, players figure they may as well LFG for the chrono.

My question is: Why are so many players only running raid builds nowadays? Well it may be due to these reasons:

  • Players just copy/paste whatever they see on the current meta-build websites they visit.
  • Players learn only that one build that they copy/paste from a meta-build website.
  • Players believe that one build is the end all be all and any deviation from that listed build would mean they are a bad player..
  • Players fail to understand that raid builds are designed for 10 man teams vs. raid AI single target bosses and that fractal AI and mobs function completely differently.

If a group was running 99 and 100 CMs, I get it. It's nice to use the rehearsed raid meta and it does work well in CMs. But for general T4 daily completion, the expectation of pulling raid meta team comps is beginning to cause very unnecessary problems:

  • People being way too picky while forming teams before actually starting the fractal. T4s are something that can be completed in about 30 minutes on average if people who know what they are doing just group up and go do it. There is no reason to tag an extra 10 -20 minute wait time to form a raid meta team.
  • Groups full of raid DPSers who fail to pull a heal druid. They go in and are often unable to survive the random nature of fractal AI. It seems they fail to understand that having ultra high DPS means nothing if you can't stay alive long enough to use it. Frequently being in downstate is also a loss in DPS for the players who have to stop DPSing and go revive the downed player.
  • Overly elitist attitude for a casual game mode that simply does not require raid elitism within a party to succeed. They'll kick & boot players because their ARCDPS tells them that a particular player isn't meeting raid standard DPS. Sometimes they kick & boot a player simply because his build was a deviant of a meta, regardless of the player's actual performance. The elitist attitude leads them to believe they are "making the party stronger" by booting out unidentified build structures. But ironically enough, the players they will rag on or boot from the party are often older fractal players who have adapted custom builds that might sacrifice 15% to 20% top DPS for the ability to carry bad groups in fractals. The kind of builds that are capable of solo'ing CM MAMA or finishing CM Ensolyss cap phase by itself if it has to, avoiding a boss fight reset and saving everyone time.

I wanted to write this thread because of something I watched happen, earlier today. There was this LFG for daily recommended fractals so I joined. The guy who made this LFG apparently felt he needed a raid heal druid and all raid metas to run his daily recommended fractals. There was 1 Berserker in the party who was using Heal Signet and the guy who created the LFG was throwing a fit over it. He tried to vote kick the Berserker but no one seconded the vote because well... it's just recommended and we really just wanted to get it done. The guy who created the LFG ended up leaving the party because the Berserker was "throwing off the group meta". We picked up a random 5th and completed the recommended fractals in a short amount of time. When I checked the LFG again for a T4 group to run with, that same guy who left our party was still posted in the LFG looking for an ultra meta group to run his daily recommended fractals with. Needless to say, that guy was being ridiculous. But what is important to point out is how his overly elitist attitude was actually making him waste his own time.

Fractals are not raids.Stop being raid elitists in fractals.~ There you have it. Someone needed to say it.

Edited by Trevor Boyer.6524
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If they want to waste time let them, I post t4 or t4 f+p if i want it abit quicker and get my groups filled up quick.What I dont like tho is guilds brining in people with low ar too leech a kill without saying anything to the group, happen to me today in solid ocean tried to kick a guy after him trying to get into boss area dying instantly to agony 5 times.

Ended up getting kicked myself and just restarting.

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I agree to some things you write, and in general. I also think that you are exaggerating the situation quite a bit. Kill and experience proofs are only a thing for challenge motes, and these are like raids. Everybody else can do all T4 fractals (if you made it to T4). Most people are shy though and just watch the LFG panel instead of starting their own group. When you watch the LFG for a while, you'll see all those "99cm, and dailies, p+f, title, chrono druid", and then sometimes a normal ad pops up and fills immediately. It is not exclusive like raids. The only raid LFGs without LI and KP requirements are training runs, and you can expect to spend two hours trying and leaving without kill. All those normal groups in T4s are successful runs (with few exceptions). You can choose to do a normal run that takes average 30 minutes or join one of the LFGs with requirements and spend 30 minutes ^^

Two days ago I joined a T4 dailies run with requirements, and at the last fractal, the starter asked if we want to do 99cm. No kill proof or title asked, we just went in, everybody knew what to do, was a very smooth run (it was not a guild run I joined). And we did need about 30 minutes for the dailies before, some daily combinations just take that much time, even if you have a great party composition (exceptions are static speed clear groups). Most of the times, I have positive experience with T4 pugs. You often get a better composition than with guild mates, because you rather accept your guild mates' build decisions and performance issues and keep going, because...buddies, right?

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Raiders didn't suddenly appear out of nowhere right before raids got introduced to this game. Most of these players were running Fractals frequently or even daily and dungeons before even that. They have always been interested in efficiently clearing instanced content.Things were figured out, METAs formed around these ideas, others started to follow them blindly without thinking as always. Nothing new and nothing that started with the raids. People seem to forget about the old dungeon LFG and all of that supposed elitism.This will turn into nothing more than yet another discussion people will join in on to shit on raids in their bias to blame all evil on the content they do not like.

All though, I agree with you on how stubbornly close minded people can be and especially those in pugs.Attitudes on both sides of this arguement can be rather ridiculous. Those who'd rather waste an hour of their time than go without the exact copy-pasted composition while thinking they must be absolutely right about everything and those who outright refuse to run anything that is popular, so they can feel special while acting so smug and superior that even their own guilds soon refuse to play with them.

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Idk... Did my daily t4s today asking for (meta only, pots+foods 1 healer, 1 chrono, 1 dps) already had banners and another DPS covered. Waited no longer than 30 seconds right after reset and got exactly as i asked for. These are the people with the same mindset as my own for efficient/quick roll-through of dailys. These are simply players asking for what they want. It may seem over-the-top to put such an advert JUST for t4s. But hey, at least everyone is pulling their weight with everyone knowing what build they're running... Cause you know... Meta is better. :^)

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Most of the PUG fractals I've joined are laid-back and fun. (But I mainly play Tier 1 or guild runs BECAUSE I want laid-back and fun.)

The worst fractal experience I've ever had (again, this was Tier 1, bear that in mind) started when the 'leader' informed us that he was running a DPS meter and didn't want any of us slacking off spamming the '1' key. Halfway through the event, he told another member of the squad that his build was squishy. That player took exception to the remark, and we ended up nearly getting slaughtered by the boss while the 'leader' and squishy dude were too busy screaming insults at each other in the chat to fight.

I'm perfectly happy if raid-minded people want to make up LFG groups based on metas. LFGs with specific demands let me know that those are not the kind of group I want to play in, and I am grateful for the warning signs.

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Yeah, create your own group and don't care about the others.

There is a reason why ppl are running meta and were always doing - btw. even before the introduction of raids.

Setting requirements for fractals is an improvement if you are a skilled player because without these you'll get a grab bag. Either the group is solid/good to stomp through or you're the jinx. I ran a couple of "T4 daily sh__" with 2 friends over the last weeks and nearly half of those runs had to be or were carried by us - not only in terms of dps. Such runs can be fun from time to time but if you only want to get your daily done it's annoying to have peeps in your group that are slowing the speed down heavily.

Meta players almost always know the fastest strats like skips and portals (therefore you need a chrono or at least raiders with Xera portal [haven't seen any valuable scourge portal xD]), not to forget /gg's and they are using potions & food without the need to remind them. Of course even meta pugs are far away from speed run times but I've written it before: Most people have no clue how much faster the average meta pug is compared to a random pug! Not - in - the - slightest!

In EU you find groups within 1-3 minutes except for CMs. The longer waiting time for CMs is justified because you don't want to wipe over and over again and waste a lot of more time than the waiting. Especially 100CM can be destroyed by one single player not knowing what to do or not reacting correctly and fast enough.

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@"Cragga the Eighty Third.6015" said:Most of the PUG fractals I've joined are laid-back and fun. (But I mainly play Tier 1 or guild runs BECAUSE I want laid-back and fun.)

The worst fractal experience I've ever had (again, this was Tier 1, bear that in mind) started when the 'leader' informed us that he was running a DPS meter and didn't want any of us slacking off spamming the '1' key. Halfway through the event, he told another member of the squad that his build was squishy. That player took exception to the remark, and we ended up nearly getting slaughtered by the boss while the 'leader' and squishy dude were too busy screaming insults at each other in the chat to fight.

I'm perfectly happy if raid-minded people want to make up LFG groups based on metas. LFGs with specific demands let me know that those are not the kind of group I want to play in, and I am grateful for the warning signs.

But if you play more fractals you will learn that 90% of the time it's friendly and smooth. People do exaggerate stories and make it look like some toxic pool of players, it is quite the opposite.

For 100CM etc yeah, I can understand of course why people want the ultimate set-up and experience. Anyone can do one with whatever requirements, but who are we to tell people to not want to pursue the most efficient means? Just ignore them and make whatever you want.

I would say the roughest fractal bracket is T3 because there are still inexperienced players in both knowledge of the fractal or playing their character. Now you can choose T1 and just coast that's fine and awesome as well. That's why there's 4 tiers, a sense of progression and pursuit of better playing while also having an easier mode for those who may choose not to want to do that.

When I read the forums about T4 pugs, I thought to myself "wow, it must get pretty bad, I am not looking forward to this" and of course it was the opposite. People all have food+pots without being asked, know the tactics, and many groups since they have good DPS are relaxed about metas chrono/druid. I run druid just because overall it smooths the experience and even when I've joined a group already with a druid, I was expecting: "OMG not 2 druids! Go something else!" and ofc I never received that. I can swap to SB but most times they don't care because everyone is on point. But yeah, if there's a listing asking for a chrono or druid, that's fine, normal T4 dailies as long as you're playing something that's WAY off optimal, then groups don't have a problem.

For every not-so nice group there are 20 that are relaxed, skilled and normal. I pugged all the way to T4 and I am doing T4 dailies--granted it's not CM etc but read my second paragraph--and it's 95% smooth and friendly. Even my guild doesn't care what someone brings, I mean you have videos of people soloing T4 and someone who plays their DPS properly can easily output more than 3-5 players who can't.

I suggest if you find players that are more to your liking, add them so you can easily form better groups. Ignore actual "elitists" and rude players I agree but don't confuse elitism with a bunch of players just wanting to improve and do something efficiently.

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@"Cragga the Eighty Third.6015" said:The worst fractal experience I've ever had (again, this was Tier 1, bear that in mind) started when the 'leader' informed us that he was running a DPS meter and didn't want any of us slacking off spamming the '1' key.

Should have left immediately. It takes a special kind of noob to run a dps meter in T1s to threaten people with kicks.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Raid Elitism has been slowly but surely seeping into fractals for quite some time now. Each day, there are more and more LFGs posted with descriptions such as: "Need Chrono - Need Heal Druid". These LFGs are in attempts to form 5 man raid meta teams, for fractals. I assume this is happening because of these reasons:

  • Players can't or don't want to afford multiple setups on most characters. For the purpose of saving resources, they gear for raids because it is the most difficult content.
  • Raid builds are designed to support each other and all DPS oriented raid builds require a healing druid. They have to bring in that healing druid.
  • Since the raid DPS and heal druid are present, players figure they may as well LFG for the chrono.

My question is: Why are so many players only running raid builds nowadays? Well it may be due to these reasons:

  • Players just copy/paste whatever they see on the current meta-build websites they visit.
  • Players learn only that one build that they copy/paste from a meta-build website.
  • Players believe that one build is the end all be all and any deviation from that listed build would mean they are a bad player..
  • Players fail to understand that raid builds are designed for 10 man teams vs. raid AI single target bosses and that fractal AI and mobs function completely differently.

You keep talking about "Raid meta this" and "Raid build that" as if you all think of these ideas started within raids. A class's most effective dps build or healing build or boon duration build isn't something that is just unique to raids. So instead of assuming that the reason why people try to use meta groups/builds is because they are sheep who don't know better, maybe it's because those things actually work. Back before raids, these high-end fractals were very much where the 5 man meta groups came from, and when raids came out some of the first compositions that were tried out were people taking the 5 man meta and simply doubling them. So these people in fractals now aren't just blindly trying to form 5 man raid teams, they're putting together efficient groups with the tools they have available.

Sure you can complete T4 fractals with any 5 random dps builds who don't support each other in any way, as long as they still know what they're doing in the fights. Or you can bring 3 dps and the 2 best damage buffing classes (quickness+alacrity from chrono, and might+spotter+spirits from druid or might+empower allies+banners from warrior) and double the output of each of your 3 dps. Now your group has 6 people worth of damage, plus two additional people who can also add their own damage or support the group in other ways (healing, blocks, CC, etc.), compared to the other group of just 5 people's worth of damage and no additional support.

Asking for specific group comps that simply work better than having no synergy at all isn't elitism, it's just common sense. When you have certain builds that can buff everyone else's damage by 30-50%, the overall power level of the group goes up more from bringing along one of those than it would from having a 4th or 5th throughput person.

Now, trying to micromanage exactly how everyone is playing the game (like your example with the person not agreeing with your warrior's choice of healing ability) is certainly verging on the unnecessary. If a player is able to perform their role at an adequate level then it doesn't particularly matter what small build variations they make along the way because those things work better for them.

If a group was running 99 and 100 CMs, I get it. It's nice to use the rehearsed raid meta and it does work well in CMs. But for general T4 daily completion, the expectation of pulling raid meta team comps is beginning to cause very unnecessary problems:

  • People being way too picky while forming teams before actually starting the fractal. T4s are something that can be completed in about 30 minutes on average if people who know what they are doing just group up and go do it. There is no reason to tag an extra 10 -20 minute wait time to form a raid meta team.The thing is, you have no way to know if the random people who hop into your group have any idea what they're doing or not. So yeah, if every time you put together a group you were guaranteed to be getting 4 other totally skilled and knowledgeable players who could complete the fractals in 30 minutes vs. 25 with a meta setup, then it wouldn't particularly matter. But you have no such guarantee. So instead some people prefer to take longer doing the no-skill part of completing fractals (waiting for people to join the group) in order to increase their chances and reduce the time spent on the skill-intensive part of completing fractals (combat). And some people prefer to just group up with the first 4 people they find and jump right in to the fractal without worrying about team synergy at all, even if it might mean taking longer in fights or dying more often once inside the fractal.
  • Groups full of raid DPSers who fail to pull a heal druid. They go in and are often unable to survive the random nature of fractal AI. It seems they fail to understand that having ultra high DPS means nothing if you can't stay alive long enough to use it. Frequently being in downstate is also a loss in DPS for the players who have to stop DPSing and go revive the downed player.This is simply a player skill issue, not something inherently broken about the meta. Full glass cannon dps builds can work just fine if the people playing them are on top of their game. I'll usually complete my T4's in full berserker gear, or swapping in some marauders for fights where I know I need the extra hp to survive hard to dodge 1-2 shots. But what functions the best in a vacuum isn't necessarily what functions best for everyone, so it's up to each individual player to understand their strengths and weaknesses and where they need to make adjustments.
  • Overly elitist attitude for a casual game mode that simply does not require raid elitism within a party to succeed. They'll kick & boot players because their ARCDPS tells them that a particular player isn't meeting raid standard DPS. Sometimes they kick & boot a player simply because his build was a deviant of a meta, regardless of the player's actual performance. The elitist attitude leads them to believe they are "making the party stronger" by booting out unidentified build structures. But ironically enough, the players they will rag on or boot from the party are often older fractal players who have adapted custom builds that might sacrifice 15% to 20% top DPS for the ability to carry bad groups in fractals. The kind of builds that are capable of solo'ing CM MAMA or finishing CM Ensolyss cap phase by itself if it has to, avoiding a boss fight reset and saving everyone time.Open world pve is a casual game mode. Dungeons are a casual game mode. T1 fractals are a casual game mode. You can wander into any of those as a fresh 80 in terms of gear and no research or practice of the fight mechanics and generally come out on top. T4 fractals may feel easy and casual to you now, but that's because you're decked out in full or mostly-full ascended gear and have been doing them long enough to understand the mechanics. Maybe even long enough to be accustomed to running with the potions that are giving you (with mastery) 25% reduced damage taken, ~10% more armor, 15% more damage, ~11% more crit chance, 25% more movespeed, 50% more endurance regen, and ~15% more boon duration. Your standard T4 daily farmer is miles ahead of a fresh 80 stepping into T1s in terms of power level, so if you take one of those new players who just reached level 80, give them enough AR to survive the agony ticks and nothing else, and they will very quickly tell you that the T4 fractals that you're doing together are not "casual" content.

Also we used to have elitism far worse than dps meters. Maybe you don't remember or just weren't around for the times when groups were "10K AP or kick", where if you hadn't been playing long enough or just didn't care about farming randomly completely unrelated achievements then you couldn't join the groups. Or you'd have groups requiring you to ping all of your gear and if it wasn't full zerker with scholar rune then you'd be kicked. Or if the group was inside the fractal and dying to a boss because they weren't killing it fast enough, they'd just assume it was the fault of the non-meta dps class (aka everyone but elementalists) and kick them first. With dps meters, most of those completely arbitrary requirements and assumptions are gone now, and people have actual metrics available with which to judge how others are performing in their roles.

Do some people get overly nit-picky in their expectations? Sure. But those same people would have had the same expectations previously and would have had to make random assumptions about who to replace in their groups. At least now if you have, say, 4 people signed up to be dps and 3 of them are doing 15k+ while one is doing under 5k, you can see who the problem person is. Or if one of those people doing 15k+ is running an off-meta build, they can now point out that they are performing just as well as the other dps, instead of being kicked under the assumption that they're the off-meta and thus are the problem person. So does the presence of dps meters make the fractal environment any more healthy or more toxic? Overall I'd say there's still about the same level of toxicity, but at least it's now directed towards the people who are measurably underperforming, and people have an avenue to be able to say "you can see that this off-meta thing I'm doing actually works just fine" whereas before it was "just trust me on it".

I wanted to write this thread because of something I watched happen, earlier today. There was this LFG for daily recommended fractals so I joined. The guy who made this LFG apparently felt he needed a raid heal druid and all raid metas to run his daily recommended fractals. There was 1 Berserker in the party who was using Heal Signet and the guy who created the LFG was throwing a fit over it. He tried to vote kick the Berserker but no one seconded the vote because well... it's just recommended and we really just wanted to get it done. The guy who created the LFG ended up leaving the party because the Berserker was "throwing off the group meta". We picked up a random 5th and completed the recommended fractals in a short amount of time. When I checked the LFG again for a T4 group to run with, that same guy who left our party was still posted in the LFG looking for an ultra meta group to run his daily recommended fractals with. Needless to say, that guy was being ridiculous. But what is important to point out is how his overly elitist attitude was actually making him waste his own time.

Fractals are not raids.Stop being raid elitists in fractals.~ There you have it. Someone needed to say it.Raids are not the sole source of all things meta or elitist.Putting together groups based on class synergy and having expectations of adequate performance is not elitism.~There you have it. If you don't like how other group leaders do things you can make your own.

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Agree, just make your own group. There will always be players with fixed mind set, be it meta or not of how things work (extremist/ fanatics for example). Too quick and unfair to blame it on raids, could be from other games with a dedicated healer role but my point is such people are out there ; even before Raid was implemented.

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Let me clear a few things up:

@"Rhiannon.1726" My point is that it's becoming a longer wait for an individual player to LFG a general "T4 Daily Pots & Food" group due to the rise in expectation of finding raidish fractal groups. Sometimes when you do run a random group and it fills in less than 30s, 3 or 4 of the guys who join are running glass cannon raid dps in a group that has no heal druid, which becomes a problem in many of the fractals. A great example is the underground facility where players have to stand on the two panels while one player uses the mechanism. Guys who rely on stacking on each other and requiring a heal druid just get mulched in situations like that. The raid dps builds are not designed well for certain fractal mechanics. Which brings me to the other things you said about how there has always been a meta before the raid meta. 100% agree but the difference here is that old dungeon/fractal metas were actually designed for dungeon/fractal mechanics and didn't create these the kind of issues I'm talking about in this thread.

@Faaris.8013 I didn't say these problems were happening all the time. I said there was a rise in raid elitism seeping into fractals that was beginning to cause unnecessary problems for such a casual game mode.

@"Henry.5713" I see what you mean but raid meta builds are not the meta for fractals. This is the entire point of my post. I remember before the raid elitism began seeping so strongly into fractals. 5 random people would join with random builds and run T4 dailies + old 100 CM "Nightmare". Complete it all in 30 to 40 minutes, flawless runs 9/10 times you PUG a party through LFG. When the new 100 CM "Shattered Observatory" appeared, this is what began to draw in raid metas because it demanded it. The raid metas work great against those bosses because they are bosses designed with raid'ish like mechanics. But the problem occurs when players begin to tell each other "raid meta is now meta in all pve" and they begin bringing glass dps raid metas into fractals such as:

  • Underground Facility as mentioned above
  • Uncatagorized - Hilarious to watch glass DPS raid metas try to run past harpies or DPS down Tom with no heal druid. Hilarious until these otherwise good players running the inefficient specs in fractals are turning a 6 to 10 minute fractal in to a 25 minute fractal due to the amount of unnecessary team wipes and /gging.
  • Nightmare "on normal mode even" - Ensolyss cap node phase with no heal druid. Need I say anything more?
  • ect.. ect.. ect.. Raid meta is not the meta for fractals. Even qtfy points out a clear distinction between the two.

@Blood.5607 I'm not arguing that: heal druid/chrono + 3 raid dps isn't effective. I'm stating that raid meta is not fractal meta and there are better specs to be used in fractals for the purposes of ease of LFG and fractal mechanics. The fractal metas are so interchangeable that it doesn't even matter what classes are in the team comp. They are capable of joining any T4 group, regardless of what classes have already joined, and are able to complete the T4s with casual ease. For me, it amounts down to saving time. If I am running T4s + Recs + CMs at every daily reset, I want those T4s to only take about 20-30 minutes. Then I want the Recs to take about 15 minutes. I do not want to incorporate raid organization time into something that is so casual. I do organize for CMs but that is a different story as we all know. But point being: Raid meta is not fractal meta. When raid meta begins to bleed into fractals, players are actually losing efficiency running the game mode and using unnecessary amounts of time organizing as such.

@"Aplier.7829"Quote you: "You keep talking about "Raid meta this" and "Raid build that" as if you all think of these ideas started within raids. A class's most effective dps build or healing build or boon duration build isn't something that is just unique to raids."I stopped reading there because those builds are definitely unique to raids. Even qtfy has clearly pointed out the difference between raid metas and fractal metas. This goes into even further extremes if you are talking about devising a solo build for some specific dungeon/fractal or some other content such as to solo lupi. You don't solo lupi with a raid dps setup. You actually need defensive mechanisms while doing something like that. My friend, the raid meta is completely designed around how raid AI works and single target boss burning, rather than random AI targeting from large mobs. Of course it will be convenient to discover the highest possible DPS build on some given class while they play a game mode where the bosses perma agro a tank, ignoring the DPS players completely, while the DPS players are perma healed by a heal bot, while they are able to hide in a 10 man group nonetheless. Such is not the case with all game modes. There are better options than raid meta in other game modes. You could have all the DPS in the world on your one perfect raid meta character but all of that DPS counts for nothing if you are frequently in downstate or dead.

I'm not saying that 10/10 times I join a fractal I see these problems. I said that I see a rise in raid elitism that is beginning to cause unnecessary problems in fractals. Problems that are lowering the time efficiency of fractal groups. My hope for this thread was that it would get people to lighten up a bit on the elitism before the casual game mode tips more and more towards an elitist activity like raids. I certainly did not hope for responses like from Aplier, justifying the raid elitism ^^

At any rate ~ cheersLet's all enjoy the game

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The OP has misunderstood the situation. Dungeons have always attracted players who don't care about how long it takes and those who want to speed clear. Some groups have identified optimized compositions for quick completion of fractal dailies, including Challenge Modes and some players use that effectively.

That works perfectly fine as long as the two groups don't try to impose their preferences on each other: if you aren't interested in speed clearing, don't join groups that are and communicate your goals effectively in your own LFGs. If you want to clear quickly, say so (not just by asking for specific builds) and don't join groups that don't seem to care.

Complicating the above are these additional points:

  • People who confuse "optimized speed clearing compositions" with "the only way to run fractals"
  • People who forget that PUGging for specific comps might slow down completion as much as having a less-than-optimal-comp
  • People who think that comp matters more than understanding the mechanics

This situation isn't new: there were elitists in dungeons in 2012 (and complaints about it, too); this hasn't anything to do specifically with raids or raiding.

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@"Aplier.7829"Quote you: "You keep talking about "Raid meta this" and "Raid build that" as if you all think of these ideas started within raids. A class's most effective dps build or healing build or boon duration build isn't something that is just unique to raids."I stopped reading there because those builds are definitely unique to raids. Even qtfy has clearly pointed out the difference between raid metas and fractal metas. This goes into even further extremes if you are talking about devising a solo build for some specific dungeon/fractal or some other content such as to solo lupi. You don't solo lupi with a raid dps setup. You actually need defensive mechanisms while doing something like that. My friend, the raid meta is completely designed around how raid AI works and single target boss burning, rather than random AI targeting from large mobs. Of course it will be convenient to discover the highest possible DPS build on some given class while they play a game mode where the bosses perma agro a tank, ignoring the DPS players completely, while the DPS players are perma healed by a heal bot, while they are able to hide in a 10 man group nonetheless. Such is not the case with all game modes. There are better options than raid meta in other game modes.

I'm not saying that 10/10 times I join a fractal I see these problems. I said that I see a rise in raid elitism that is beginning to cause unnecessary problems in fractals. Problems that are lowering the time efficiency of fractal groups.

A condi ranger's highest dps build is equipping viper's gear and running soulbeast+wildnerness survival+skirmishing, regardless of whether it's in a meta raid group with full buffs or an organized fractal group. A support ranger's strongest healing/buff uptime build is going to be harriers gear and druid+nature magic+skirmishing with things like spirits on your bars. A power thief's highest dps build is berserker's gear and daredevil+critical strikes+deadly arts, regardless of being in a meta raid group with full buffs or an organized fractal group. Nowhere do I try to say that those builds are the best option all the time or that they are builds you can run solo (in fact if you took the time to read, I even specifically mention that people should adjust their builds to their situations and themselves, and that off-meta builds are just fine if they still perform adequately in their role). I'm simply stating that certain builds being able to output the highest dps potential or that a group meta including support-focused classes is not something unique to the raid environment.

So I suggest actually reading and responding to the post as a whole, instead of assuming it has nothing of value because the opening statement disagrees with a claim you make that can easily be proven wrong.

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You're making an unwanted, unnecessary distinction between raid and fractal builds. Raids work in 5man subsquads for the most part that guarantee buff spread,in other words: one raid subsquad translates perfectly to one fractal group. If you followed the scene you'd also know qT is no longer considered current, you'd have to either quote snowcrows or discretize (specifically for fractals).

I understand most of your post but try informing yourself better.

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This is nothing new. Fractal Metas and elitism have been around since before raids. It is ridiculous to think that this is something new.www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU1DddeeFVM / www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN1eJ3R_hTcFractal elitism is not a problem, there are not enough so-called 'elitists' in lfg. For t4 dailies, raid comp just makes them easier, but is not necessary. For harder/longer daily fractal runs, "CMs + Dailies + Recs: LF Chrono/Druid/BS/1power dps" makes sense because with bad comp (BannerSlut/Warrior Healer/Condi Berserker/Power Berserker/Mantra Mesmer) the fractals will take too long. Because chrono/druid/bs/2dps is the most efficient setup, people who want to quickly clear fractals will use it. There is a significant difference in time completion between parties that follow a raid comp and parties that don't. Doing fractals at reset, all parties will fill very fast, no matter the requirements posted. If it does take long for a party to fill, farm winterberries.Lastly, raid meta does not hurt fractal meta. Raid meta comp requires the players to play better for a quicker clear.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Raid Elitism has been slowly but surely seeping into fractals for quite some time now. Each day, there are more and more LFGs posted with descriptions such as: "Need Chrono - Need Heal Druid". These LFGs are in attempts to form 5 man raid meta teams, for fractals. I assume this is happening because of these reasons:

  • Players can't or don't want to afford multiple setups on most characters. For the purpose of saving resources, they gear for raids because it is the most difficult content.
  • Raid builds are designed to support each other and all DPS oriented raid builds require a healing druid. They have to bring in that healing druid.
  • Since the raid DPS and heal druid are present, players figure they may as well LFG for the chrono.

No, it is happening because it makes runs smoother and faster. It reduces dramatically chances of failure, partially because you get more experienced players but also because the meta is just more efficient.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:My question is: Why are so many players only running raid builds nowadays? Well it may be due to these reasons:

  • Players just copy/paste whatever they see on the current meta-build websites they visit.
  • Players learn only that one build that they copy/paste from a meta-build website.
  • Players believe that one build is the end all be all and any deviation from that listed build would mean they are a bad player..
  • Players fail to understand that raid builds are designed for 10 man teams vs. raid AI single target bosses and that fractal AI and mobs function completely differently.

As a matter of fact, ever since the mirror comp became a thing in raids, the raid builds are perfectly suited for any 5-man content. So the lack of understanding here is on your side. For the rest of the reasons, see above.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If a group was running 99 and 100 CMs, I get it. It's nice to use the rehearsed raid meta and it does work well in CMs. But for general T4 daily completion, the expectation of pulling raid meta team comps is beginning to cause very unnecessary problems:

That I agree with. For T4 you don't need meta party. The reasoning above is still valid, but not as pronounced, as long as the skill level of the team isn't terrible. But since CMs appeared a lot of the better fractal players started playing t4+cm, so I guess it still kind of makes sense to want meta party even if you don't intend to do CMs. It just offsets the lowered average skill.

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The player base in general has been clearing fractals with ease for years, the rest is easy to work out. Raider are addicted to speed runs because its 'efficient' but in reality its how they play raids because you need progress in a night. They are transposing from a raiding scenario to fractals because that's the only way they know how to play, in fact many raiders cant even comprehend pleasure from content for content sake, its all about the (efficiently gained) reward.

Put it this way, imaging playing an RPG board game with a group of friends at home - efficiency is not where the pleasure comes from, and yet online with strangers suddenly it is..

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A healer and a chrono makes T4 fractals easier. That's all there is to it. I've done T4s with 5 DPS specs that have gone fairly smooth, but more often than not, that isn't the case. I'm not a raider, but I always try to land a group that has at least a healer (druid/tempest/renegade {though I've never encountered a healing renegade}) A good healer can carry some pretty bad groups.

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To be fair ... people run the builds others tell them to because there is no good way to test if your own concocted builds are any good or work how you think they would. I mean, you COULD blow hundreds of gold on testing prefixes and different weapons ... or you could minimize your cost and get some guarantee of a highly functioning build right off the bat.

The bottom line is that people don't know and/or don't care to fail, so they assume taking established builds, even if they are overtuned for the content, will close the gap to being successful. Besides, lots of people who run instanced content are used to this approach anyways; it was born out of PUGs from dungeons over 4 years ago.

The answer here: build your own groups if you have requirements for what you do and don't want to do in them.

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I do my dailies that way. I may skip the chrono because it's rarely a game changer but that's about it. Overall, support makes dailies easier and there are less wipes. I'm fine with waiting 5 minutes for the party to fill up.

If you're frustrated because it's not asking for your class, play a heal druid or revenant, you'll have plenty of teams to chose from. And if you don't want to play something else, well that's on you so wait for your turn in the line.

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