Anticipated Changes

Crossing fingers for power buffs

@dontlook.1823 said:Crossing fingers for power buffs

Not gonna happen, nerfs across the board.

hahahaah never gonna happen

Bwahahahah

as if anet has idea for balance

@Arlette.9684 said:

@dontlook.1823 said:Crossing fingers for power buffs

Unfortunately that is the most likely outcome, but I'm crossing my fingers too!I want power to be raid viable so bad! Plz A-net! I'll buy gems if you do!

In any case we can only hope that they separate WvW from PvE like they do with PvP.

Hope they nerf mirage through changing ho confusion torment work. Nerfing the base tick to shit and buffing the action dmg and movemet dmg. Also reduce the durr of the conditions.

@zealex.9410 said:Hope they nerf mirage through changing ho confusion torment work. Nerfing the base tick to kitten and buffing the action dmg and movemet dmg. Also reduce the durr of the conditions.

Have you even looked at the numbers for the various conditions? Torment and Confusion are among the weakest in terms of the numbers. Just to save you the trouble, here are the numbers for each damaging condition:

Burning (PvP) - 0.155 * (condition damage) + 131 damage per stack per second

Poison (PvP) - 0.06 * (condition damage) + 33.5 damage per stack per second

Bleeding (PvP) - 0.06 * (condition damage) + 22 damager per stack per second

Torment (PvP stationary) - 0.045 * (condition damage) + 15.9 damage per stack per second

Torment (PvP moving) - 0.09 * (condition damage) + 31.8 damage per stack per second

Confusion (PvP non-casting) - 0.035 * (condition damage) + 10 damage per stack per second

Confusion (PvP casting) - 0.0625 * (condition damage) + 49.5 damage per stack per enemy cast

So, if the user has 50 condition damage, each condition will do the following amount of damage (at level 80 in PvP):burning = 138.75 per stack per secondpoison = 36.5 per stack per secondbleeding = 25 per stack per secondtorment (stationary) = 18.15 per stack per secondtorment (moving) = 36.3 per stack per secondconfusion (non-casting) = 11.75 per stack per secondconfusion (casting) = 52.625 per stack per cast

So, as you can see, Torment is near the bottom in terms of damage, as even if the target is moving it deals less damage per second than burning and poison. The confusion damage while not casting is also almost nonexistent and while casting, unless the target is able to cast 3 spells a second, will still do less damage per second than burning. I think the problem is not so much the damage of the stacks, but the shear number of stacks a Mirage Mesmer can put on a target in such a short amount of time. If you use all 3 of your jaunts on a single target that gives them 9 stacks of confusion (3 stacks per jaunt). Then if you use all your shatter skills that's a further 8 stacks of confusion (2 stacks per shatter from Blinding Dissipation and Ineptitude), and if you use a an ambush skill you get 2 more stacks of confusion from Riddle of Sand. That's 19 stacks of confusion in a very short amount of time. If we assume you are in spvp using adventure runes and carrion amulet, you will have 1375 condition damage. With 19 stacks of confusion your target will take 2,573 damage for every skill they use. Assuming your average pvp player has around 25,000 health, with that many stacks of confusion, they will die in 10 spell casts without healing.

I haven't looked at the other meta spvp builds but I doubt they could put so many condition stacks onto a target as quickly as a Mesmer can with confusion. If you wanted to nerf Mirage in PvP I would reduce the amount of stacks of confusion they can put on so quickly.

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:Have you even looked at the numbers for the various conditions? Torment and Confusion are among the weakest in terms of the numbers. Just to save you the trouble, here are the numbers for each damaging condition:

Torment and Confusion ARE broken on Mesmer. They really need to split the balance of Torment and Confusion from PvE so that PvP and WvW can get the MUCH needed nerfs to these conditions. There are SO many ways they could nerf it without breaking it. Making it so it punishing the person its on but ONLY in the right situation.

My idea:Confusion: Remove the passive damage. Remove the damage when you use AUTO attack. Make it so that it only does the damage from using 2-5 on weapon skills and the heal, utilities and elite.

Torment: Remove the passive damage when you aren't moving. Make so it damages the player ONLY when they move

On general changes. I would also either reduce the duration (a lot) or remove the sustained high application of these conditions. They have burst damage, sustained duration and constant application. It should either be burst damage (thus low duration) or sustained duration (thus low constant stacks) not both (because thats broken!)

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:Have you even looked at the numbers for the various conditions? Torment and Confusion are among the weakest in terms of the numbers. Just to save you the trouble, here are the numbers for each damaging condition:

I don't think removing the passive damage from confusion or the non-moving damage from torment is going to do too much, as the damage from those are negligible as it is. Again, let's look at the numbers here. If the target isn't moving, and you have the same set up as before (1375 condition damage) torment will do 78 damage per stack per second. That is nothing. And confusion ticks for even less at 58 damage per stack per second. If you put 18 stacks of confusion on a target (bearing in mind that some of the stacks last for 3 seconds, others last for 4 seconds) you will deal between 3,139 and 4,185 total damage from the passive ticks. Just to put that into context, the burning effect from traited Torch 4, which is 4 stacks for 3 seconds, will deal 4,129.5 total damage. If you are dieing to a Mesmer in PvP I guarantee it is not because of the passive ticks of damage from confusion or torment stacks.

@dontlook.1823 said:Crossing fingers for power buffs

This might happen... after all inspite of all probability they managed to buff condi mirage in december so all is possible.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@dontlook.1823 said:Crossing fingers for power buffs

I can't imagine it happening all in 1 go, but I anticipate a few small changes over time that will hopefully balance power and condi out. One thing in particular I am hoping for is for them to take away the distance scaling on GS1. Not being able to switch to GS in melee range really hurts Power Mesmer in PvE.

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:They already did that......

I don't think removing the passive damage from confusion or the non-moving damage from torment is going to do too much, as the damage from those are negligible as it is. Again, let's look at the numbers here. If the target isn't moving, and you have the same set up as before (1375 condition damage) torment will do 78 damage per stack per second. That is nothing. And confusion ticks for even less at 58 damage per stack per second. If you put 18 stacks of confusion on a target (bearing in mind that some of the stacks last for 3 seconds, others last for 4 seconds) you will deal between 3,139 and 4,185 total damage from the passive ticks. Just to put that into context, the burning effect from traited Torch 4, which is 4 stacks for 3 seconds, will deal 4,129.5 total damage. If you are dieing to a Mesmer in PvP I guarantee it is not because of the passive ticks of damage from confusion or torment stacks.

No they didnt.They might have ATTEMPTED to . in reality, it barely did anything. They are both still insanely strong conditions. So you're looking at between 3-4k from the passive design? Yeah thats not skill based. That is punishing for the sake of punishing. They go against the assumed intended design of each condition. Punish for using skills and punish for moving. Now its punish if you do, punish if you dont. You have to remember that 3-4k passive damage is also coming with the active use damage, the damage from the passive and active Torment as well and then all the constant reapplications and the covering conditions added onto that as well and that 3-4k passive damage is increased.

You might not be dying to the passive ticks, but with the insane never ending high application, its not as if this damage can be ignored. That damage i am guessing is based on what, 1000condi damage? When that is low condi damage for even just Hybrid builds. What is the potential damage in PROPER condition builds that run 1,500+ and remember

They only added these affects due to the conditions being weak in PvE. They only made them insanely strong and punishing in the WRONG ways in PvP and WvW. Removing the passive damage WOULD go some way to actually making the conditions work the way they were intended at the start. If it wasnt for PvE i have doubts that either condition would be in the state they are currently in. If i remember, neither condition when introduced had a passive damage effect. They could have EASILY left them the way they were and just made the passive damage change for PvE only.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:They already did that......

I don't think removing the passive damage from confusion or the non-moving damage from torment is going to do too much, as the damage from those are negligible as it is. Again, let's look at the numbers here. If the target isn't moving, and you have the same set up as before (1375 condition damage) torment will do 78 damage per stack per second. That is nothing. And confusion ticks for even less at 58 damage per stack per second. If you put 18 stacks of confusion on a target (bearing in mind that some of the stacks last for 3 seconds, others last for 4 seconds) you will deal between 3,139 and 4,185 total damage from the passive ticks. Just to put that into context, the burning effect from traited Torch 4, which is 4 stacks for 3 seconds, will deal 4,129.5 total damage. If you are dieing to a Mesmer in PvP I guarantee it is not because of the passive ticks of damage from confusion or torment stacks.

If you bothered to read my earlier posts you would see that I used the standard condi mirage build with adventurer runes and carrion amulet in spvp which gives you a total of 1375 condition damage.

Let's not forget that this is for a condition focused build. The actual damage from the skills themselves are relatively small so it's expected that the conditions are going to do the majority of the damage.

As a side note regarding your point about confusion not originally having passive ticks of damage, that change came into effect on June 23rd 2015. 2 and a half years ago. I didn't play the game back then but were mesmers as powerful then as they are now? The conditions themselves haven't changed since then. The only thing that has changed is the addition of the Mirage spec which greatly increased the number of confusion stacks a mesmer can apply in a short time frame.

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:If you bothered to read my earlier posts you would see that I used the standard condi mirage build with adventurer runes and carrion amulet in spvp which gives you a total of 1375 condition damage.

Let's not forget that this is for a condition focused build. The actual damage from the skills themselves are relatively small so it's expected that the conditions are going to do the majority of the damage.

As a side note regarding your point about confusion not originally having passive ticks of damage, that change came into effect on June 23rd 2015. 2 and a half years ago. I didn't play the game back then but were mesmers as powerful then as they are now? The conditions themselves haven't changed since then. The only thing that has changed is the addition of the Mirage spec which greatly increased the number of confusion stacks a mesmer can apply in a short time frame.

1.3k Condi damage? That is rather low for a condi build. I have seen people with WAY, WAY more than that. Now, 1.3k is more hybrid than Condi. The problem is, since then they have gotten a rather buff buff in just how much application they have. These 2 conditions having conflicting (balance wise...) design. Burst levels of damage and stacks with Sustained levels of application and duration. There is NO doubt that it WILL be nerfed.

The real question is:Will Anet nerf it CORRECTLY or go the typical Anet route and just make it useless. I would prefer (as everyone would...) of a BALANCED nerf. Pick one or the other (Burst vs Sustain) and adjust the Mesmer specs to that design.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:If you bothered to read my earlier posts you would see that I used the standard condi mirage build with adventurer runes and carrion amulet in spvp which gives you a total of 1375 condition damage.

Let's not forget that this is for a condition focused build. The actual damage from the skills themselves are relatively small so it's expected that the conditions are going to do the majority of the damage.

As a side note regarding your point about confusion not originally having passive ticks of damage, that change came into effect on June 23rd 2015. 2 and a half years ago. I didn't play the game back then but were mesmers as powerful then as they are now? The conditions themselves haven't changed since then. The only thing that has changed is the addition of the Mirage spec which greatly increased the number of confusion stacks a mesmer can apply in a short time frame.

1.3k is good for the limited amulet selection in pvp, not taking into account extra stats from vigour->condi and might.

Of course in wvw you can go much higher thanks to the inflated stats on pve gear.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:If you bothered to read my earlier posts you would see that I used the standard condi mirage build with adventurer runes and carrion amulet in spvp which gives you a total of 1375 condition damage.

Let's not forget that this is for a condition focused build. The actual damage from the skills themselves are relatively small so it's expected that the conditions are going to do the majority of the damage.

As a side note regarding your point about confusion not originally having passive ticks of damage, that change came into effect on June 23rd 2015. 2 and a half years ago. I didn't play the game back then but were mesmers as powerful then as they are now? The conditions themselves haven't changed since then. The only thing that has changed is the addition of the Mirage spec which greatly increased the number of confusion stacks a mesmer can apply in a short time frame.

Are you talking about spvp or wvw? From what I can see you can't get much higher than 1375 as a mesmer in spvp, but of course in wvw you are using pve gear that has more condition damage on it.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@dontlook.1823 said:Crossing fingers for power buffs

Yes, because in PvE they nerfed Mirage too hard by fixing the axe bug. It was doing too much damage against large hitboxes (but then, weavers are STILL doing this!). The problem is they nerfed that damage (large hitbox) by more than 30% by various estimates and it negatively impacted small hitbox damage as well. This from a class that is not particularly good at anything BUT dealing damage in a PvE scenario. It simply wasn't fair.

PvE and PvP need to be completely split. This situation is ridiculous and untenable. PvP players are going to ask for nerfs to things like confusion and torment while those are the weakest conditions by far in PvE. Nerfing the ability of mirage to stack and maintain these conditions in PvE will completely ruin the class.

I really want to see buffs to the direct damage of clones to make having at least one of them out not much of a dps loss for power builds

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:They really need to split the balance of Torment and Confusion from PvE

Erm... this was already done? Welcome to 2017 :tongue:

@Carighan.6758 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:They really need to split the balance of Torment and Confusion from PvE

Please. I am talking an ACTUAL split. Where ACTUAL balance happens. That hasnt happened here at all. The balance of the conditions in PvP and WvW have been too strong for a long time, it was just mostly ignored because Necro was the better condi nerf target and it needed nerfs. So does Confusion and Torment. Good game design WOULDNT have the conditions working as they do, for the simple thing is that they contradict the design of them. They punish you if you do, punish you if you dont.

When the update finally comes, i would hope that they rather than just flat out nerf Condi Mesmer they need to decide what they want condi Mesmer to be. Burst condi? Sustain condi. Its one or the other. Having it be both is just flat out broken.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Carighan.6758 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:They really need to split the balance of Torment and Confusion from PvE

I will say that they should probably make a split between wvw and spvp when it comes to balancing conditions, given how much more condi damage you can generate from gear in wvw. As you rightly pointed out, 1375 is quite low for a condi build in wvw, but is almost impossible to beat in spvp.

But then again, there should be a complete split of skills between spvp, wvw and pve though this might be asking too much to balance 3 different game modes separately. The other option would be to make everyone use standardised gear in wvw like they do in spvp. That might make it easier to balance each game mode.

I hope they define the Chronomancer, right now the Mirage and Chronomancer kind of share the same role in PvP. I wish they push the Chrono to be more bunker/power build

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Carighan.6758 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:They really need to split the balance of Torment and Confusion from PvE

But it is an actual split?The damage confusion does is different from Pve in Spvp..If they weren't split it would be the same?Again, split between these conditions was already done.

Good game design WOULDNT have the conditions working as they do, for the simple thing is that they contradict the design of them. They punish you if you do, punish you if you dont.

This is true, Currently the ability to burst multiple damaging and non damaging conditions on a singular character is too strong, and this goes for many condi builds.They took a step in the right direction of nerfing other builds with the latest patch, but I will say they made a mistake by not carrying that over to mesmer.If burst conditions are going to be a thing in GW2 then the damage output for ALL conditions on every build needs to be lowered.

Especially considering that most condition builds in a pvp environment are using tank stats

When the update finally comes, i would hope that they rather than just flat out nerf Condi Mesmer they need to decide what they want condi Mesmer to be. Burst condi? Sustain condi. Its one or the other. Having it be both is just flat out broken.

Burst conditions is a straight up contradiction to what condition damage was proposed to be.There should not exist an environment where condition damage does the same or near the same damage as direct damage in the same time frame and there should never exist an instance where within a second you get 5-6 unique conditions with 2-4 of those being damaging conditions with 5+stacks.