Rank=Double Scourge, double Holosmith...why?

As the title says....why?

High damage and CC from both.

Currently overtuned... a lot. Especially Scourge.

Scourge in a nutshell: You step into his vicinity, you'll get a full bar of conditions in literally 1 second. No cast times.

Holosmith in a nutshell: Spams 5-7k damage with any of the following abilities: Rifle #5 and #3, Holo Leap (2 secs cd btw), Photon autoattack, Photon Blitz, Corona Burst (x2), holographic shockwave (it can hit you twice). These abilities have a 99% chance to crit (shockwave is 100%). It's a bad idea to be in melee range as well because they can random dodge for another 5k damage.

Mirage in a nutshell: Stealth opener, press 3, dodge, press 1, press F1 or F2 or F3 = your target now has over 20 stacks of confusion = you have won the fight.

Play those classes, they'll carry anyone way outside their real mmr.

@Razor.6392 said:Currently overtuned... a lot. Especially Scourge.

Scourge in a nutshell: You step into his vicinity, you'll get a full bar of conditions in literally 1 second. No cast times.

Holosmith in a nutshell: Spams 5-7k damage with any of the following abilities: Rifle #5 and #3, Holo Leap (2 secs cd btw), Photon autoattack, Photon Blitz, Corona Burst (x2), holographic shockwave (it can hit you twice). These abilities have a 99% chance to crit (shockwave is 100%). It's a bad idea to be in melee range as well because they can random dodge for another 5k damage.

Mirage in a nutshell: Stealth opener, press 3, dodge, press 1, press F1 or F2 or F3 = your target now has over 20 stacks of confusion = you have won the fight.

Play those classes, they'll carry anyone way outside their real mmr.

You forgot the Holosmith dodge rolls.

@Velimere.7685 said:

@Razor.6392 said:Currently overtuned... a lot. Especially Scourge.

Scourge in a nutshell: You step into his vicinity, you'll get a full bar of conditions in literally 1 second. No cast times.

Holosmith in a nutshell: Spams 5-7k damage with any of the following abilities: Rifle #5 and #3, Holo Leap (2 secs cd btw), Photon autoattack, Photon Blitz, Corona Burst (x2), holographic shockwave (it can hit you twice). These abilities have a 99% chance to crit (shockwave is 100%). It's a bad idea to be in melee range as well because they can random dodge for another 5k damage.

Mirage in a nutshell: Stealth opener, press 3, dodge, press 1, press F1 or F2 or F3 = your target now has over 20 stacks of confusion = you have won the fight.

Play those classes, they'll carry anyone way outside their real mmr.

Did nhat

Holosmith damage is mostly due to insane Might stacking. I mean you're complaining about core Engi Rifle abilities and Photon Blitz which has shorter range, yet has a worse damage coefficient than Unload/Rapid Fire in PvP.

Engi only has reliable crit bonuses/fury uptime with the Firearms traitline which means giving up dodge mines from Explosives or turning into a glass cannon without Alchemy. Only Photon Forge #5 has any sort of crit modifier.

@Atmaweapon.7345 said:Holosmith damage is mostly due to insane Might stacking. I mean you're complaining about core Engi Rifle abilities and Photon Blitz which has shorter range, yet has a worse damage coefficient than Unload/Rapid Fire in PvP.

Engi only has reliable crit bonuses/fury uptime with the Firearms traitline which means giving up dodge mines from Explosives or turning into a glass cannon without Alchemy. Only Photon Forge #5 has any sort of crit modifier.

Holosmith has the most telegraphic effect of all classes and every single skill, even the healing (turret) has a quite high cast time. You can't spam utilities and ability random and expect to win. Only dodge roll is a bit too much.

But scourge and mirage have half of the cds of holo plus all insta cast skills with zero animation to proper counterplay their attacks.

Plus an holo is squishy as hell, scourge stack barrier nonstop and from 3% hp return to 50% in 1 second, and this all keeping the damage nonstop.

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Atmaweapon.7345 said:Holosmith damage is mostly due to insane Might stacking. I mean you're complaining about core Engi Rifle abilities and Photon Blitz which has shorter range, yet has a worse damage coefficient than Unload/Rapid Fire in PvP.

Engi only has reliable crit bonuses/fury uptime with the Firearms traitline which means giving up dodge mines from Explosives or turning into a glass cannon without Alchemy. Only Photon Forge #5 has any sort of crit modifier.

Holo is squishy as hell only vs power builds like GS mesmer mirage. If you don't dodge it you almost get one shoted. But lucky for you, everybody is playing a condi builds. Witch vs you for some odd reason gets owned. No matter who or what class.

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Atmaweapon.7345 said:Holosmith damage is mostly due to insane Might stacking. I mean you're complaining about core Engi Rifle abilities and Photon Blitz which has shorter range, yet has a worse damage coefficient than Unload/Rapid Fire in PvP.

Engi only has reliable crit bonuses/fury uptime with the Firearms traitline which means giving up dodge mines from Explosives or turning into a glass cannon without Alchemy. Only Photon Forge #5 has any sort of crit modifier.

Tbh I play with tools and not explosives.So I don't have mines dropped on dodge, i rarely died to an holo dropping that bombs, visible on the floor and with not that big range, and who plays explosives usually doesn't have rocket boots to disengage (they get so good with tools trait), so their disangage power is decreased by a lot.In 1vs1 an holo is easy to counter, in group mid fights it is a mess of skills all together, can't blame only holo.

Scourge sit and spam and if no focus you have no change.I mean happens rarely to find 2 holos in a team, 1 sometimes.

But it is not as popular as scourge or mirage because probably is not that easy to play like it seems.

@whoknocks.4935 said:But it is not as popular as scourge or mirage because probably is not that easy to play like it seems.Pretty much it.

I normally play a zerker mirage and I've seen first hand what a good holo can do, not to mention 2 holos being unkillable and impossible to approach on center point. The latter is far worse than a scourge, but of course it is tying up a resource so easier to fight elsewhere.

But I've also played scourge and holo and while scourge is basicly facerolling the keyboard without even knowing what the skills do in order to win random fights and hold points, holo is much more complicated. I dont feel very confident with it. Mained a scrapper from HoT->PoF so its not that I'm not used to the engineer, I just cant play it well. Scourge is far, far easier.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:But it is not as popular as scourge or mirage because probably is not that easy to play like it seems.Pretty much it.

Problem is Holosmith in my opinion is not a meta defining profession like scourge, many class counter holo, dh, spellbreaker and soulbeast, scourge, mirage, all power based specs and condi specs. And holo doesn't deny an entire capture point while he is holding a point, most of the times have to disengage or die.Scourge counter any single profession expect maybe deadeye which is useless anyway in PvP and not present anyway. And it has no real counters, just mirage i guess, which is even more broken.

@Razor.6392 said:Currently overtuned... a lot. Especially Scourge.

Scourge in a nutshell: You step into his vicinity, you'll get a full bar of conditions in literally 1 second. No cast times.

Holosmith in a nutshell: Spams 5-7k damage with any of the following abilities: Rifle #5 and #3, Holo Leap (2 secs cd btw), Photon autoattack, Photon Blitz, Corona Burst (x2), holographic shockwave (it can hit you twice). These abilities have a 99% chance to crit (shockwave is 100%). It's a bad idea to be in melee range as well because they can random dodge for another 5k damage.

Mirage in a nutshell: Stealth opener, press 3, dodge, press 1, press F1 or F2 or F3 = your target now has over 20 stacks of confusion = you have won the fight.

Play those classes, they'll carry anyone way outside their real mmr.

B-b-but the engi/necro mains said holo/scourge is balanced... They wouldn't lie to us, would they?

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Atmaweapon.7345 said:Holosmith has the most telegraphic effect of all classes and every single skill, even the healing (turret) has a quite high cast time. You can't spam utilities and ability random and expect to win. Only dodge roll is a bit too much.

0.75 seconds cast time is quite high? Lol. You'd hate being a necro player!

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:many class counter holo, dh, spellbreaker and soulbeast, scourge, mirage, all power based specs and condi specs. And holo doesn't deny an entire capture point while he is holding a point, most of the times have to disengage or die.

Dude, you don't even play the problematic meta build (minesweeper), how can you tell what counters holo and what doesn't? All power based specs counter them? 1v1 they always lose? What?

Only matches they downright lose are against scourge and mirage. Spellbreaker is a bit tough but skillbased, as for the other power builds (rev, soulbeast, thief, ele) holo has the clear upper hand, especially if those professions need to do damage in melee. Just dodge roll for 4-7k instant damage plus pulsing 5k corona burst.

@Razor.6392 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Atmaweapon.7345 said:Holosmith has the most telegraphic effect of all classes and every single skill, even the healing (turret) has a quite high cast time. You can't spam utilities and ability random and expect to win. Only dodge roll is a bit too much.

0.75 is only for the initial turret placement. To get the full healing effect (overcharge + water field & blast), you're talking closer to 2 seconds (2x.75 + human error). And that takes two button presses timed properly, not one (used to take 3 button presses to do properly). If an engineer is under enough pressure/cleave, that second heal (which has the majority of health) may not even go off because the healing turret gets destroyed before it finishes overcharging.

@Razor.6392 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:many class counter holo, dh, spellbreaker and soulbeast, scourge, mirage, all power based specs and condi specs. And holo doesn't deny an entire capture point while he is holding a point, most of the times have to disengage or die.

Uhh, I play the meta holo build, and I can tell you I don't just die to scourge and mirage.

I die to... DH, well-played SB's, mirage, scourge, clever druids, skilled D/P thieves, staff spam thieves, P/P thieves if I'm unprepared, core guardian build if I'm caught unprepared, reaper with well-timed CC's, and a few other random builds. The only classes/builds I don't generally die to? Eles/Weavers. Which seems to be the class you play. ;) Engineers have always been a relatively hard counter for eles (like necros to engi), so this comes as no surprise.

The other thing I want to point out is that your problems with holo might actually go away if scourge was nerfed properly. Builds like DH and scrapper can tank holo pretty handily, but under the scourge meta they are simply too fragile and immobile.

And to people who think holo has a lot of sustain...

Most of what sustains a holo are actually core skills/traits that have been in place since launch. The difference is that a really skilled holo/engineer can use fields like nobody's business to survive longer. Easiest example comes from the Healing Turret itself, as I pointed out. That blast can also be accompanied by a leap. The toolbelt skill when used in conjunction with a leap is 2k health as well.

Elixir gun is another common one for cleansing... Super Elixir = 2 condis cleansed, blast with #4 = another cleanse + aoe damage. But these are not skills inherent to the class, these are combo fields being used to their full effect.

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Razor.6392 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Atmaweapon.7345 said:Holosmith has the most telegraphic effect of all classes and every single skill, even the healing (turret) has a quite high cast time. You can't spam utilities and ability random and expect to win. Only dodge roll is a bit too much.

@Razor.6392 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:many class counter holo, dh, spellbreaker and soulbeast, scourge, mirage, all power based specs and condi specs. And holo doesn't deny an entire capture point while he is holding a point, most of the times have to disengage or die.

Oh really, you die to people that outplay you? heaven forbid that happens!

The way I see it, you will only lose if you astronomically mess up or the other guy is a better player than you. It's not like any of those are losing matchups. A thief that fails to dodge twice against holo is pretty much toast. "Unprepared" is not an accurate way to determine a matchup btw.

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Atmaweapon.7345 said:Holosmith damage is mostly due to insane Might stacking. I mean you're complaining about core Engi Rifle abilities and Photon Blitz which has shorter range, yet has a worse damage coefficient than Unload/Rapid Fire in PvP.

Engi only has reliable crit bonuses/fury uptime with the Firearms traitline which means giving up dodge mines from Explosives or turning into a glass cannon without Alchemy. Only Photon Forge #5 has any sort of crit modifier.

Well, yeah scourge doesn't have much in terms of telegraphs. But the counter is easy... DON'T step into his personal space. He was built as a zoner meaning he controls areas of influence where he's at a high advantage. But, of course in a game type that expects you to be in a specific area to win, it's way too advantageous.

If you put down all PoF elite specs you'll notice that there is a lack cluster and causality.

Weaver is the most well made spec in PoF.

All others fall aside in execution and thus OP.

Holo: could have a "heat" fuction for every weapon and have less dmg or bigger cd in form. Bur ofc they couldn't be f'ed with optimizing 5 weapons.

FB: Could actually get two axes and maybe change the traits and nerf condi in main hand.

Scourge: Literally no casting speeds has shield and does ton of damage. Nerf the whole thing.

list goes on. Basically they half as'ed everything except weaver.

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Atmaweapon.7345 said:Holosmith damage is mostly due to insane Might stacking. I mean you're complaining about core Engi Rifle abilities and Photon Blitz which has shorter range, yet has a worse damage coefficient than Unload/Rapid Fire in PvP.

Engi only has reliable crit bonuses/fury uptime with the Firearms traitline which means giving up dodge mines from Explosives or turning into a glass cannon without Alchemy. Only Photon Forge #5 has any sort of crit modifier.

I know don't step into shades but that imply always freaking leaving the control point and let him decap, every single time, there is no way you can stay melee to scourge and still maintain the cap. and if you are only 1vs1 you have to run away or die... that is a pure cancer for that kind of gamemode.

@whoknocks.4935 said:Holosmith has the most telegraphic effect of all classes and every single skill, even the healing (turret) has a quite high cast time. You can't spam utilities and ability random and expect to win. Only dodge roll is a bit too much.

You can holospike for 20K in 2.3 seconds from stealth.Don't even try justifications: the nerfbat is required here. Same for Scourges.

@Kaga.7629 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:Holosmith has the most telegraphic effect of all classes and every single skill, even the healing (turret) has a quite high cast time. You can't spam utilities and ability random and expect to win. Only dodge roll is a bit too much.

20k? hahaha

Man if you receive 20k damage means you are the bad player, not the holosmith op or broken, just go back to pve then :)

@whoknocks.4935 said:20k? hahahaMan if you receive 20k damage means you are the bad player, not the holosmith op or broken, just go back to pve then :)

A pocket, almost instant 20K spike from stealth is no joke. And l2p was exactly what all the wastoids playing Deadeyes during PoF first week were saying ( when they were pretty much all abusing the stealth bug to snipe from stealth) or .... all the scum saying there was nothing wrong with scourges, and move along now.

You're the cancer.You could also be the cure. But you're too weakminded to talk real. So you talk trash, because that's all you know.

@Kaga.7629 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:20k? hahahaMan if you receive 20k damage means you are the bad player, not the holosmith op or broken, just go back to pve then :)

Only in WvW holo damage is crazy as hell due to the same pve stats bring into WvW. In conquest mode holo is alright tho.

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Atmaweapon.7345 said:Holosmith damage is mostly due to insane Might stacking. I mean you're complaining about core Engi Rifle abilities and Photon Blitz which has shorter range, yet has a worse damage coefficient than Unload/Rapid Fire in PvP.

Engi only has reliable crit bonuses/fury uptime with the Firearms traitline which means giving up dodge mines from Explosives or turning into a glass cannon without Alchemy. Only Photon Forge #5 has any sort of crit modifier.

Meanwhile herald elite projects a giant dragon head to slowly reel back before breathing in exactly the direction it looks like for worse damage and shorter range then holo elite, who's only tell is crouching down and aiming a rifle.

@Flauvious.6195 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Atmaweapon.7345 said:Holosmith damage is mostly due to insane Might stacking. I mean you're complaining about core Engi Rifle abilities and Photon Blitz which has shorter range, yet has a worse damage coefficient than Unload/Rapid Fire in PvP.

Engi only has reliable crit bonuses/fury uptime with the Firearms traitline which means giving up dodge mines from Explosives or turning into a glass cannon without Alchemy. Only Photon Forge #5 has any sort of crit modifier.

And so? We all know revs are underpowered, but holo born as a burst class and if you get rid of it nothing remains, you don't remember when rev was op and always present in pvp, then it got nerfed and yeah.

@Razor.6392 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Razor.6392 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Atmaweapon.7345 said:Holosmith has the most telegraphic effect of all classes and every single skill, even the healing (turret) has a quite high cast time. You can't spam utilities and ability random and expect to win. Only dodge roll is a bit too much.

@Razor.6392 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:many class counter holo, dh, spellbreaker and soulbeast, scourge, mirage, all power based specs and condi specs. And holo doesn't deny an entire capture point while he is holding a point, most of the times have to disengage or die.

So what you're telling me is that the spec is actually balanced like a glass cannon. If I get hit unprepared, I die. If somebody is more skillful I die. If I sneak up on a non-tank, I win. Tanks and bruisers generally win against me. What about that doesn't read like a glass cannon to you?

Not every battle in PvP is a 1v1 where everybody is prepared. Surprise! Holosmith, like D/P thief, is very vulnerable if it gets snuck up on or is caught unprepared or with skills on cooldown. Almost any class that catches me unawares can wreck me.

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Atmaweapon.7345 said:Holosmith damage is mostly due to insane Might stacking. I mean you're complaining about core Engi Rifle abilities and Photon Blitz which has shorter range, yet has a worse damage coefficient than Unload/Rapid Fire in PvP.

Engi only has reliable crit bonuses/fury uptime with the Firearms traitline which means giving up dodge mines from Explosives or turning into a glass cannon without Alchemy. Only Photon Forge #5 has any sort of crit modifier.

Except their zones move frequently, and you can be CC'ed into or stuck into said zones with cripple/chill. That's not just zone control, that's zone domination.

@Kaga.7629 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:Holosmith has the most telegraphic effect of all classes and every single skill, even the healing (turret) has a quite high cast time. You can't spam utilities and ability random and expect to win. Only dodge roll is a bit too much.

To do that requires a rather specific combination of skills from the holo and errors made on the part of the target:

1. Holo stealths with Throw Elixir S.
2. Holo moves in close while stealthed (4 secs to do so)
3. Holo pops Elixir U, Photon Forge, and Corona burst within about a second.
4. Holo pops holographic shockwave + photon blitz (takes about a second and a half with quickness)
5. Holo finishes off with holo leap or AA. (time varies)
6. If target not dead, prime light beam. (if quickness still active, 0.5 secs)
7. Whole process generally takes around 4-5 secs for the burst, with a cooldown of approximately 40 seconds to repeat again (minus prime light beam)

At any time in this whole process, the target could...

• Move/teleport away (like I said, 4 seconds of stealth. You can almost always see the holo coming unless you're around a blind corner)
• Block
• Dodge
• CC (IE Fear) prior to corona burst
• Stunbreak + heal
• Put up stability
• Stealth
• Put up reflects or projectile destruction (rendering photon blitz useless)
• Blind/smoke field
• Temp invulns (IE Elixir S, Signet of Stone, Endure Pain)

And all of this is significantly less effective if the target has tanky stats. Tanky stats targets can withstand most of this and turn around and beat the holo up.