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What happened to the surge?


Klipso.8653

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People saw new rewards so they went straight into wvw to farm as much as possible.
They realized that wvw gives less gold/hour so they went back to their pve farming.

One of the best reason why pvp/wvw shouldn't be more profitable than pve because it brings lots of people who are not interested in that game mode but in its rewards.

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@"steki.1478" said:People saw new rewards so they went straight into wvw to farm as much as possible.

They realized that wvw gives less gold/hour so they went back to their pve farming.

One of the best reason why pvp/wvw shouldn't be more profitable than pve because it brings lots of people who are not interested in that game mode but in its rewards.

It's weird because I've got the feeling that lots of "WvW is dying" shouts come from the fact that less and less people are interested in the game mode, and that it overall lacks fresh blood.

I agree I'm not so fond of greedy behaviours, but don't let a search for some kind of purity of players blind you : if rewards are a bait to get players in, then the job of WvW dedicated players is to show them how great the game mode is, how nice the community is, and how thrilling it is to play, so that it'd be an evidence that the game mode is rewarding for itself. And then, maybe, some of the greedy players shall get hooked and stay for the game mode.

As far as I'm concerned, from my small EU server, I saw a bit of this, and a lot of toxicity and insults from so-called vets wanting the "noobs" away to trolls throwing harsh words to newcomers... So, I suppose the best is to let the game mode die now ? ANet tried, cards were in our hands, and some wiped their a** with them. If the game mode dies because of this, i'll be the first one to sing and dance

Just my two cents.

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@steki.1478 said:One of the best reason why pvp/wvw shouldn't be more profitable than pve because it brings lots of people who are not interested in that game mode but in its rewards.

Except that along with all of the people who came for the rewards are also people who got intrigued by the game mode, people who would never otherwise have even tried it. Short term, it's awful for veterans. But in the long run, it's good to have systems to attract fresh blood.

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@steki.1478 said:

One of the best reason why pvp/wvw shouldn't be more profitable than pve because it brings lots of people who are not interested in that game mode but in its rewards.

Absolutely this.Team PvP suffers when participants aren't there to actually play but farm. I'll use my most recent experience, Wildstar. Wildstar has instanced PvP, it was actually good PvP BUT it offered a fast-track for leveling characters. So, in most matchups half of both teams were bots and afkers, this made it impossible to have a full-participation match.

It was a decent game made awful by players who had no interest in the match, but the rewards.. We see glimpses of the same behavior in WvW thanks to pip farmers. Take the warning guys, it gets worse.

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My observation from looking at friends and guild members:PvP players were interested in "roaming" at first but soon discovered that classical PvP was faster paced and had more action than WvW, waiting for a poor soul at a camp or crossroad. This way they could not uphold their participation. They moved back to PvP.PvP players saw very little middle ground for larger than 5v5 fights they knew and "zerg warfare". Not having like minded players to team up with, they went back to PvP, where they get at least put together with like minded people in a central lobby or via an automated system.PvP players saw that ascended and "legendary" armour was locked behind a WvW rank that was impossible to catch up.PvE players were seeking a casual way of getting stuff "on their own" and saw very little rewards, because they could not keep their participation up. They went back to PvE for better loot.PvE players were looking to gain tracks via dailies and discovered that e.g. Keep and Tower caps were out of their (individual) reach and daily Rank takes forever if you do not have a train/zerg to follow. They switched back to PvE for dailies.Guild players across several servers can't do even a single guild mission together, because every single mission needs people from the same (linked) server(s).

Nobody I know, that was not a WvW players before, really has stuck with WvW after tickets were introduced. Tickets and Reward Tracks only work for for the full time WvW player compared to other game modes. You do WvW because you like it, not because of any other coin, item or shiny.

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@ThomasC.1056 said:ANet tried, cards were in our hands...

Not really, the only actual real issue with WvW that Anet actually improved upon was lag, everything else either got ignored, had a band-aid that would achieve nothing meaningful thrown at it or actually got worse, the players stuck with the game mode in spite of Anet's neglect/ineptitude, but eventually most had enough, the state of WvW lies for the most part with Anet.

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@steki.1478 said:People saw new rewards so they went straight into wvw to farm as much as possible.

They realized that wvw gives less gold/hour so they went back to their pve farming.

One of the best reason why pvp/wvw shouldn't be more profitable than pve because it brings lots of people who are not interested in that game mode but in its rewards.

A lot of people who were initially not interested in WvW came for the rewards, then stayed because they found out they thoroughly enjoyed the game mode.

I still think ANET never should have taken the WvW map completion requirement away from Gift of Exploration - plenty of people entered WvW only for the purpose of map completion, then decided to keep playing the game mode afterwards because they had no idea they would like it so much.

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@Klipso.8653 said:When Anet dropped their ticket system, we had a huge influx of players. Ques on every map, every day. And it was awesome, we haven't seen WvW participation like that since season 1 and tournaments.

Where did they all go? And what could Anet add to bring them back?

If you do WvW all the time, that takes time away from PvE. People had to go back to playing new PvE content.

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@"Gorani.7205" said:

PvE players were seeking a casual way of getting stuff "on their own" and saw very little rewards, because they could not keep their participation up. They went back to PvE for better loot.PvE players were looking to gain tracks via dailies and discovered that e.g. Keep and Tower caps were out of their (individual) reach and daily Rank takes forever if you do not have a train/zerg to follow. They switched back to PvE for dailies.Guild players across several servers can't do even a single guild mission together, because every single mission needs people from the same (linked) server(s).

Nobody I know, that was not a WvW players before, really has stuck with WvW after tickets were introduced. Tickets and Reward Tracks only work for for the full time WvW player compared to other game modes. You do WvW because you like it, not because of any other coin, item or shiny.

While I can't comment on your points about PvP as I don't play that particular mode, I can comment on the PvE thing. I came into WvW just trying to get a Gift of Battle, and found that not only is it a lot of fun, but the reward tracks are actually pretty easy. They take roughly 5 hours of gameplay assuming you can get and maintain T6 participation.

Which leads me to your complaint about PvE players not being able keep participation up. That's a load of hogwash. There are so many ways to build participation that pure ineptitude is the only reason for someone to be unable to maintain it. If someone is really that awful at figuring stuff out for themselves(never mind that the game has a /wiki command), I'd rather not have them playing on my team.

Dailies are also generally pretty easy. The only one that ever presents any real challenge is capping a keep. Towers, camps, ruins, etc are all a snap. You don't have to be able to solo a tower lord with your build. 2 or 3 players together are more than capable of taking a tower. Roam around and find some teammates to havoc with.

Frankly, I find WvW more rewarding than open world PvE, both in terms of tangibles, and in gameplay. Also, most zones lack the hilarity of Mag team chat. =)

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@Chaba.5410 said:

@Klipso.8653 said:When Anet dropped their ticket system, we had a huge influx of players. Ques on every map, every day. And it was awesome, we haven't seen WvW participation like that since season 1 and tournaments.

Where did they all go? And what could Anet add to bring them back?

If you do WvW all the time, that takes time away from PvE. People had to go back to playing new PvE content.

Good point.A significant portion of GW2 does experience all content available. I suppose many of them also trend towards whatever anet is promoting at the time. Naturally, with a new PvExpansion......

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@Optimator.3589 said:Which leads me to your complaint about PvE players not being able keep participation up. That's a load of hogwash. There are so many ways to build participation that pure ineptitude is the only reason for someone to be unable to maintain it.Ineptitude, or a poor attenpt to maintain undeserved participation.

Hmm

I suppose that'd be covered under ineptitude

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Shiny new rewards naturally bring out more players. Eventually though, they realized that WvW wasn't any less boring than they remembered it, and left again.

To fix that problem, you have to make WvW a compelling game mode regardless of rewards, which means finding a way to make each individual seem relevant to the outcome, and the outcome seem meaningful.

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@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@steki.1478 said:One of the best reason why pvp/wvw shouldn't be more profitable than pve because it brings lots of people who are not interested in that game mode but in its rewards.

Except that along with all of the people who came for the rewards are also people who got intrigued by the game mode, people who would
never
otherwise have even tried it. Short term, it's awful for veterans. But in the long run, it's good to have systems to attract fresh blood.

Very good point.I've seen a lot more new roamers in T2 and T3 during off NA prime hours which is definitely a good thing.

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The same argument can be said for those who do WvW for Gift of Battle: In my experience, once they get the gift, thats it. No more WvW. Very few players stay, if any at all. WvW does not intrigue a lot of people, sadly. Sure, some stayed. The vast majority left. They went back to PvE farming. That's why the queues dropped, a few weeks after ANET introduced pips+rewards. People thought they could get them quickly, but their rank was very low, which meant low pips, which meant endless hours of farming to get tickets. And thats why they left.

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I am a PvE player who has kinda stuck with WvW. My main ambition is fashion and I found out that WvW is the best way to get transmutation charges, and it doesn't really hurt that the actual playing is fun too. I started when they boosted the rewards, did it less when it started to feel like a lot of grind (getting 1 pip per tick if your server is 3rd...) but now when it's boosted a bit and I got that extra 150 rank pip, it's a bit better again.

My problem has been that I want to play on classes and/or roles that are kinda unsought after or not-as-effective-as-I-would-hope so it's been often a hard time. Also I have felt that others play their classes way more effectively than me, and I often stumble on my skill selection, doing stupid mistakes etc. I've kinda settled on my guardian, using the meditrapper build when solo/small group and switching some more defensive traits and skills if I'm running with a zerg.

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Maybe I just don't understand PiP farming, most of the comments refer to PvE players only farming for rewards but I usually hit the ticket cap by Sunday afternoon so I never pay attention to my participation. It's really not that difficult to get 1450 PiP's, and my rank isn't even that high.

Anet can clearly make the changes needed to get more people interested in joining the fight, but they don't seem to know what to do for the retention of those players. Even if not all of them stay, it still gives them a reason to try it out, and a chance to grab their interest which will lead to those players enjoying a game mode they might not have even thought about trying before. The recruitment of WvW guilds rely on fresh players who decide to stay, it is not sustainable if those new WvWers never step foot in the mists.

Maybe a mini automated tournament every quarter? Even if it's minor rewards for winning like the dolyak finishers? Or achievements that reset each tournament for titles or current living story currency?

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@steki.1478 said:People saw new rewards so they went straight into wvw to farm as much as possible.

They realized that wvw gives less gold/hour so they went back to their pve farming.

One of the best reason why pvp/wvw shouldn't be more profitable than pve because it brings lots of people who are not interested in that game mode but in its rewards.

Where that is a point, WvW/PvP should reward the players who play it, so that they can get the same items as everyone else in game, the WvW reward system is shockingly poor, the rank up chests should get progressively better the higher you go, but they don't, you could open chest 10,000 and get 2 greens, Anet introduce a new reward system then forget about it, im not saying throw gold and loot at you but if your hitting the max pip reward chest each week you should be getting heavily rewarded for that, as it shows some dedication to the game mode.

Look at the tournaments, how hard would it be for Anet to put them into WvW, PvP is on what season 10 now, with achievements etc to get, but WvW hasn't had anything for years now, because Anet don't want people to feel they need to grind, LET the players decide that for themselves.

I stand by this, WvW is a great game format that I enjoy, but I have no doubt if Anet could remove both WvW and PvP from this game without a major backlash it would be done tomorrow.

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@Gorani.7205 said:Nobody I know, that was not a WvW players before, really has stuck with WvW after tickets were introduced. Tickets and Reward Tracks only work for for the full time WvW player compared to other game modes. You do WvW because you like it, not because of any other coin, item or shiny.

Me. Longtime PVE player. Came for gifts of battle, got pulled in, now live in WVW.

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As someone that has recruited and convinced some "noobs" to join me in WvW, they all had something in common to say about their prior experience.

Being a newer player in WvW, they were discounted as a player in map/team chats from more well known players. They were told to join the zerg and when they did, they werent the right class/build for such. These are people trying to learn and certain commanders/well known players weren't too inviting.

Just today actually in WvW, a well known player that I liked chatting to in map chat was a complete douche and discounted every guild/player who wasn't in 1 specific guild. Lost all respect for him so I can see where these newbies were coming from.

Luckily there are some people who experience this are willing to give it another shot when they are with friendly guild mates.

Im not saying that this is the exact and only reason why the surge dropped (as ppl stated, WvW rewards required too much grinding and not as rewarding would also play a part...this I agree with), however sometime the issues are ones that come from home.

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I have similar experience in that a good commander can make or break your grouping experience, especially for a new-ish player in WvW. When I was starting out I ran in a group a few times lead by a guy who constantly berated people for playing badly, dying too soon, having bad gear etc. but never tried to make a point to explain why or how to improve.

Then a bit later I ran some times with another commander who took time to teach tactics, positioning, practicing with us, etc. and we did really well, even though many people confessed they had little experience. Overall my experiences have been positive (although sometimes some guys from my own server will call me a pleb or a scrub for dying in a small group situation) but commanders should definitely take note: it's not always about how much you know about the technical side of skills and stuff in WvW, it's also about leading and managing people, and some of them have more people skills than others.

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WvW has a large learning curve for new players. Regardless of their class/build, if you're not willing to accept and teach them the proper way, they are not going to remain in the mode and return to where they were with a sour taste.

You want fresh blood and keep them a lot of players need to drop their "leet" attitude.This mode is in dire straights and only the vets can turn it around.

I don't recruit players from WvW. I grab them from PvE at low levels, 10 and under. I run with them, teach them the game, their class and have them adjust their gear/builds as things progress so they understand the tools available to them.

Play and have fun while doing it. Mix up your game. 100% WvW time will burn you out!!!

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