Jump to content
  • Sign Up

D/D and D/P balancing


Ghost.5637

Recommended Posts

Let's be honest here, we all know d/p is a superior weapon set to d/d in terms of raw strength and utility(as a power weapon). D/d is good for death blossom condi spam but how fun/engaging is that really?

d/p has backstab, leap, shadowstep, interrupt and smoke field for stack-able stealth. Compare that to d/d, which sure has backstab/leap. but what else? I guess an evade that forces you into an animation that's easy to lock down, and a stealth that requires melee range as a marshmellow thief(that can be blocked/interrupted/evaded!). I feel like d/d has a bit of an identity crisis.

Suggested fix:Move the shadowstep/blind from d/p to d/d. D/p can already stack stealth to close the distance, and has interrupts for ranged fight control and can be seen as more of an ambush weapon. But unless you feel like using 2-3 utilites to close the gap, you literally have to walk up to an enemy to hit or stealth.

Yeah you can steal but then what? Say you miss and you're stuck there just waiting to die. Your burst will most likely fail due to passive blocks/invulns, and then you get blown up because you've used all your utilities to close the gap that a shadowstep on the weaponset could have fixed. D/d should be more of an up close and personal burst style, with d/p for sneaky ambushing. I'd say give it a scorpion wire that we can throw out to blind/teleport, and give d/p a new skill to compliment a stealthier playstyle

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@CreedOfGod.9764 said:Let's be honest here, we all know d/p is a superior weapon set to d/d in terms of raw strength and utility(as a power weapon). D/d is good for death blossom condi spam but how fun/engaging is that really?

because it is not fun for you to play condi with it it needs to have another playstyle with the same weapon and be better with it then other combinations ? for utility you are right, raw power not so much there was never d/p meta for thieves in pve but d/d was used before we got our staff..d/p has backstab, leap, shadowstep, interrupt and smoke field for stack-able stealth. Compare that to d/d, which sure has backstab/leap. but what else? I guess an evade that forces you into an animation that's easy to lock down, and a stealth that requires melee range as a marshmellow thief(that can be blocked/interrupted/evaded!). I feel like d/d has a bit of an identity crisis.

the going into stealth on d/p requires you to use either utility as finisher , a traited dogge as finisher , weapon swap to shortbow or even worse a heartseeker. try using black powder + heartseeker in melee ranger against any half decent opponent, depending on class you fight 1200 range distance is not enough to start stacking, so you first need to open your gap to even get into stealth, that you then try to close and stealth will run out pretty much when you arrive and you wasted tons of initative without preassuring.so no getting into stealth while at melee range is alot better on d/d as that will force the opponent to use defensive resources like blocks/blinds/evades. d/p gets alot of its offensive preassure through interrupts , AA and being able to stick to the opponent with shadow shot, not by spamming backstabs.Suggested fix:Move the shadowstep/blind from d/p to d/d. D/p can already stack stealth to close the distance, and has interrupts for ranged fight control and can be seen as more of an ambush weapon. But unless you feel like using 2-3 utilites to close the gap, you literally have to walk up to an enemy to hit or stealth.

how does me stacking stealth with d/p close the distance, mostly when i stack stealth the distance will also get greater and even hiddenthief wont make me catch up the lost distance. so basically you want d/p not be able to get to their target but they need to go on range to get into stealth, how are they getting to their target then to 're - ambush ' as i doubt you ask for d/p being able to oneshot everyone with their inital ambush.

Yeah you can steal but then what? Say you miss and you're stuck there just waiting to die. Your burst will most likely fail due to passive blocks/invulns, and then you get blown up because you've used all your utilities to close the gap that a shadowstep on the weaponset could have fixed.

and with yor suggestion d/p wont have that issue cause?D/d should be more of a jump-in-and-burst style, with d/p for sneaky ambushing.for in , out and burst you could play sword/x , they got an in and out skill.sneaky ambushing is fine but only if you can actually kill the opponent with the ambush, you wont be able to keep up if they run after inital burst, d/d has a range cripple skill for this and d/p a gapcloser. so tell me how you will increase the ambush potential of d/p relative to d/d as prestacking stealth enough for an inital hit doesnt require you to use any weapon skill.I'd say give us a scorpion wire that we can throw out to blind/teleport, and give d/p a short range rollback that inflicts a bleed to targets in front.sounds to me like you just want to trade the skills... wich will leave us with 2 bad d/x sets for pvp purposes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for adding to the discussion.

@"MUDse.7623" said:because it is not fun for you to play condi with it it needs to have another playstyle with the same weapon and be better with it then other combinations ? for utility you are right, raw power not so much there was never d/p meta for thieves in pve but d/d was used before we got our staff..

These suggestions were indeed meant for pvp/wvw scenarios, since I do not do much PvE anymore. D/d still seems to only be effective to small hitboxes on targets standing still. This will not change Power d/d effectiveness in pve.

the going into stealth on d/p requires you to use either utility as finisher , a traited dogge as finisher , weapon swap to shortbow or even worse a heartseeker. try using black powder + heartseeker in melee ranger against any half decent opponent, depending on class you fight 1200 range distance is not enough to start stacking, so you first need to open your gap to even get into stealth, that you then try to close and stealth will run out pretty much when you arrive and you wasted tons of initative without preassuring.

It does not "require" a ulitity to stealth on d/p. Using heartseeker is not as bad as you're making it sound. It absolutely does require a utility on d/d though. That is the issue. d/p can teleport and interrupt to control a fight at range. All d/d can do is throw daggers and get locked into horrible evade frames, and hope the enemy is stupid enough to get close so that they can CnD to stealth. They could decrease the initiative cost of black powder slightly to prevent too much wasted initiative.

so no getting into stealth while at melee range is alot better on d/d as that will force the opponent to use defensive resources like blocks/blinds/evades. d/p gets alot of its offensive preassure through interrupts , AA and being able to stick to the opponent with shadow shot, not by spamming backstabs.

Valid point, but d/d cannot reengage effectively to capitalize on those opportunities where an enemy uses those skills.

how does me stacking stealth with d/p close the distance, mostly when i stack stealth the distance will also get greater and even hiddenthief wont make me catch up the lost distance. so basically you want d/p not be able to get to their target but they need to go on range to get into stealth, how are they getting to their target then to 're - ambush ' as i doubt you ask for d/p being able to oneshot everyone with their inital ambush.

Stacking stealth would close the distance the exact same way it does now. Most thieves do not engage using shadow shot from stealth. If you do, then you're wasting a backstab opportunity. D/p would still use BP+HS into steal back stab, or BP + bound into steal backstab to engage. Nothing would change here.

For d/d you must use CnD/steal or CnD/Inf Signet to close the gap. Those are your only two options to engage, without just walking up to them or spamming heart seeker. If you remove shadowshot from d/p, yes they will have this burden instead. The difference is d/p can stack stealth so they don't have to worry about walking up in plain sight. If d/d had "shadowshot", they would still be visable, but they could close the gap more easily to land a CnD or finish their target.

This would be the trade off:d/p - can stack stealth at a distance, remove shadow step, still has steal + infiltrator signet to jump back in if it needs to. Also has interrupts to control a fight at range.d/d - requires melee range to stealth, give it shadowstep so it can re engage effectively.

I feel this has more synergy with the weapon sets.

for in , out and burst you could play sword/x , they got an in and out skill.sneaky ambushing is fine but only if you can actually kill the opponent with the ambush, you wont be able to keep up if they run after inital burst, d/d has a range cripple skill for this and d/p a gapcloser. so tell me how you will increase the ambush potential of d/p relative to d/d as prestacking stealth enough for an inital hit doesnt require you to use any weapon skill.

This is true, but maybe I should have labeled it as more of an "in" weapon, rather than in and out. There are plenty of montages on this forum of d/p thieves already being in stealth, then steal and backstab for 14k. Thats a pretty good ambush if you ask me. The new # 3 ability for d/p is up for debate, it can be whatever you feel would increase ambush potential. A range cripple is laughable in this meta IMO though.

sounds to me like you just want to trade the skills... wich will leave us with 2 bad d/x sets for pvp purposes.

I mean, yeah lol. I do not think they would be bad though. D/p will still be strong as a burst from stealth weapon and d/d will have a chance as a stick-to-your-target and staying-up-close kind of set. D/d would still be just as effective as a PvE power set as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

with recent changes the complaints about thieves are getting less, so i dont think any thief build there does need a major nerf currently, aside from that:

you still fail to tell me how d/p will have better ambush potential then d/d. you dont need much pre stealthing to reach a target both got backstab as 'ambush' so how will d/p be better ambush set? oh and i do mostly higher backstabs then the ones in those videos here when hitting same targets..little hint: check on what opponents they do those hits.

that you want to cripple d/p is one thing, but that you dont realize how broken OP a d/d thief would be that can stick to you..going into stealth in melee after your backstab,. to 'reengage' , use another backstab etc d/p vs d/d :d/p:

  • pistol 5 to tell your opponent to ready the interrupt, there goes 6 ini.
  • heartseeker this is a movement skill, therefore you can only cancel it yourself with a weapon swap. with pre and aftercast it surely takes like 1 second were you are prone to every attack and intterrupts
  • if you get interrupted all ini is gone, no stealth.
  • on success 3s stealth, so far used ini : 9

d/d

  • CnD costs only 6 ini,
  • no other skill as warning before
    • faster then heartseeker-can be canceld with ESC even shortly before it hits to safe all ini and bait defenses.
    • on success 3s stealth and this one is extendable with SA while the combo one is not.

on d/p you cant do much against the counterplay to BP+HS, while a simple ESC on d/d safes all your resources and lets the opponents interrupt or defensive resources go to waste.now if you can stick to your opponent with d/d and either spamm backstabs or bait everything without even using resources, how can you not see that this would be kinda broken?

if hidden thief would not increase speed by 50% but instead gave superspeed in stealth, then you could actually stick to your opponent with stealth as d/d. your opponent then has only 3s time to get on distance. aside from that IMO d/d power was allways an ambush build, mostly power d/d builds tried to kill their opponent with inital cnd+bs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@MUDse.7623 said:with recent changes the complaints about thieves are getting less, so i dont think any thief build there does need a major nerf currently, aside from that:

you still fail to tell me how d/p will have better ambush potential then d/d. you dont need much pre stealthing to reach a target both got backstab as 'ambush' so how will d/p be better ambush set? oh and i do mostly higher backstabs then the ones in those videos here when hitting same targets..little hint: check on what opponents they do those hits.

that you want to cripple d/p is one thing, but that you dont realize how broken OP a d/d thief would be that can stick to you..going into stealth in melee after your backstab,. to 'reengage' , use another backstab etc d/p vs d/d :d/p:

  • pistol 5 to tell your opponent to ready the interrupt, there goes 6 ini.
  • heartseeker this is a movement skill, therefore you can only cancel it yourself with a weapon swap. with pre and aftercast it surely takes like 1 second were you are prone to every attack and intterrupts
  • if you get interrupted all ini is gone, no stealth.
  • on success 3s stealth, so far used ini : 9

d/d

  • CnD costs only 6 ini,
  • no other skill as warning before
    • faster then heartseeker-can be canceld with ESC even shortly before it hits to safe all ini and bait defenses.
    • on success 3s stealth and this one is extendable with SA while the combo one is not.

on d/p you cant do much against the counterplay to BP+HS, while a simple ESC on d/d safes all your resources and lets the opponents interrupt or defensive resources go to waste.now if you can stick to your opponent with d/d and either spamm backstabs or bait everything without even using resources, how can you not see that this would be kinda broken?

if hidden thief would not increase speed by 50% but instead gave superspeed in stealth( yes both say 50% but infight superseed is alot faster) then you could actually stick to your opponent with stealth as d/d. your opponent then has only 3s time to get on distance. aside from that IMO d/d power was allways an ambush build, mostly power d/d builds tried to kill their opponent with inital cnd+bs.

Superspeed is 100% speed increase, and Ignores movement speed impeding effects is Cripple and Chill, Hidden Thief does neither of those.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:with recent changes the complaints about thieves are getting less, so i dont think any thief build there does need a major nerf currently, aside from that:

you still fail to tell me how d/p will have better ambush potential then d/d. you dont need much pre stealthing to reach a target both got backstab as 'ambush' so how will d/p be better ambush set? oh and i do mostly higher backstabs then the ones in those videos here when hitting same targets..little hint: check on what opponents they do those hits.

that you want to cripple d/p is one thing, but that you dont realize how broken OP a d/d thief would be that can stick to you..going into stealth in melee after your backstab,. to 'reengage' , use another backstab etc d/p vs d/d :
d/p:
  • pistol 5 to tell your opponent to ready the interrupt, there goes 6 ini.
  • heartseeker this is a movement skill, therefore you can only cancel it yourself with a weapon swap. with pre and aftercast it surely takes like 1 second were you are prone to every attack and intterrupts
  • if you get interrupted all ini is gone, no stealth.
  • on success 3s stealth, so far used ini : 9

d/d
  • CnD costs only 6 ini,
  • no other skill as warning before
    • faster then heartseeker-can be canceld with ESC even shortly before it hits to safe all ini and bait defenses.
    • on success 3s stealth and this one is extendable with SA while the combo one is not.

on d/p you cant do much against the counterplay to BP+HS, while a simple ESC on d/d safes all your resources and lets the opponents interrupt or defensive resources go to waste.now if you can stick to your opponent with d/d and either spamm backstabs or bait everything without even using resources, how can you not see that this would be kinda broken?

if hidden thief would not increase speed by 50% but instead gave superspeed in stealth( yes both say 50% but infight superseed is alot faster) then you could actually stick to your opponent with stealth as d/d. your opponent then has only 3s time to get on distance. aside from that IMO d/d power was allways an ambush build, mostly power d/d builds tried to kill their opponent with inital cnd+bs.

Superspeed is 100% speed increase, and Ignores movement speed impeding effects is Cripple and Chill, Hidden Thief does neither of those.

my bad didnt check the tool tip of it for a while and was sure it was 50% once , ill edit it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@bluri.2653 said:Destroying one weaponset from viability in PvP to create two less than mediocre weaponset is just foolish. If you want D/D to be changed it should be changed on its own, not by revamping/taking another thing from one weaponset

Was about to post same comment until i saw this^^

D/D could use some love but once again most people don't understand why we have different weapon sets on first place. Namely D/D is there for raw straight forward damage (outside of awkward db that seriously needs rework, imo), d/p is more of utility set. If you want more utility and picked D/D then sry to say, you did pick a wrong set.Destroying another weaponset because you can't play your favorite weaponset the way you want is pretty much selfish. Have you thought about players that actually like d/p the way it is? Should i ask to remove d/d all together from game so d/d players stop asking to nerf d/p or s/d (whatever is popular atm)?And btw, d/d issue doesn't come from d/p design, it comes from own design and design of other classes that make d/d rather ....meh.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I play d/p extensively over d/d because it is better, however I feel like d/p would still work fine without a shadowstep, and d/d viability would increase dramatically with one. Tweaks and play style changes would need to be made to accommodate, and new skills are up for debate.

Only changes i've suggested is to make d/p a stealth focused set with ranged control, and make d/d more of a set for staying up close and personal.

@Cynz.9437(outside of awkward db that seriously needs rework, imo),this works too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@CreedOfGod.9764 said:I play d/p extensively over d/d because it is better, however I feel like d/p would still work fine without a shadowstep, and d/d viability would increase dramatically with one. Tweaks and play style changes would need to be made to accommodate, and new skills are up for debate.

Only changes i've suggested is to make d/p a stealth focused set with ranged control, and make d/d more of a set for staying up close and personal.

@"Cynz.9437"(outside of awkward db that seriously needs rework, imo),this works too.

  1. D/P does not have shadowstep, it has shadowshot...
  2. no, it would not be fine without shadowshot. At least not in pvp where your whole role is to +1 and decap crap. UC does not make up for proposed mobility loss because not everyone plays with UC (not to mention latest heavy nerf to the trait that made it very bleh) and you would ruin gameplay of any non-UC d/p player. Have you tried to keep up to enemies in pvp without using ss and UC lately? Because given Anet's "oh so awesome" balancing everyone and their mother has enough mobility and defensives to make your backstabs absolutely useless so main damage since season 1 was AA, if you didn't notice. And you need ss to stay on target.

Once again, do not change what is working. Fix what is not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"bluri.2653" said:Destroying one weaponset from viability in PvP to create two less than mediocre weaponset is just foolish. If you want D/D to be changed it should be changed on its own, not by revamping/taking another thing from one weaponset

This.

Kind of.

I think D/P and in general, stealth, needs a balance pass in its own right. OOC stealth and stealth stacking is a massive problem right now.

That said, there's no real reason to massively change D/P for the sake of D/D's viability.

D/D does suck, and the OP's concerns are largely true, but at the end of the day, the issue is simply that D/D has no mobility to pressure a fleeing target or escape a target pressuring back. CnD in this game-state isn't any good unfortunately because of the amount of huge AoE damage there is which makes using it in attempts to escape often a death sentence. While I like that risk is necessary to acquire stealth, the kit just needs more tools. Shadow Shot on D/D only looks to fix one of these problems; giving D/D SS won't fully fix the kit. It just needs a better gap closer/opener than HS and DB already needs a rework, anyways. Make DB the skill, since if you try to make HS work, you'll change D/P.

I've been giving the same or similar feedback for several years. Here's just what I wrote yesterday.

To be honest, all that really needs to be done is to give Dancing Dagger another stack of torment per bounce, and then make DB a fixed-distance 600 range dash/evade akin to Death's Charge before it got changed to stop at the target, consolidate its hits down to 2 hits and 2 stacks of bleeding, and then keep all of its hits at the beginning of the cast/similar hitbox timings/locations so that it can't just be spammed for damage and requires to be in melee range. Recover 1 init for evading an attack with DB like how Unload works. Then bring CnD down to 5 init.The biggest issue with D/D is it isn't cohesive with the rest of how the thief needs to play. It lacks any instant-engage and totally lacks any disengage tools whatsoever. It forces you into melee all the time with no means to close/open gaps, which in this game-state with so much persistent AoE and CC makes the kit generally suck. I like the idea of designing it around being the more "stay and beat them" kit rather than focusing on resets, but the thief in all of its weapons needs some kind of capacity to get out of being slapped around, be it either from movement skills or just being at range and kiting like P/P.

That's the bare minimum. If they really wanted to get fancy, the end of DB could strike with both daggers for a better power coefficient akin to how Heartseeker cleaves to a single target to give it some damage to reward perfect spacing upon engaging.

Honestly, I'd really like to see HS reworked because it's imho one of the most useless skills the thief has aside from its leap finisher for D/P.

The kit then has some degree of necessary mobility to give it some better engage/disengage potential, and the condi variant gets some better diversity while requiring more skill to play than just spamming 3.

The damage is fine and generally the kit is cohesive... For the most part. I'd rather see incremental change which addresses why the kit is weak than crazy and superfluous buffs. Most of my failures on D/D come from the lack of mobility and DB's painfully long aftercast which still keeps you in melee more than anything else.

With DB's rework dealing the damage at the start, this also makes the gap close have tons of value in the event a target flees a backstab and is just out of range. This could lunge you forward and the target will then walk into your threat zone afterwards.

Mobility powercreep has also seriously made HS not aged well. Just look at Jaunt. HS is only marginally faster than moving with swiftness. Hell, even the Rifle, designed to be a stationary kit, is better at disengaging than using HS without stealth due to the sheer slowness of HS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Cynz.9437" said:

  1. D/P does not have shadowstep, it has shadowshot...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Shotshadow shot is a shadowstep

  1. no, it would not be fine without shadowshot. At least not in pvp where your whole role is to +1 and decap crap. UC does not make up for proposed mobility loss because not everyone plays with UC (not to mention latest heavy nerf to the trait that made it very bleh) and you would ruin gameplay of any non-UC d/p player. Have you tried to keep up to enemies in pvp without using ss and UC lately?

This is how d/d feels. But I get it, everyone who enjoys d/p is going to shoot my idea down. As for your decap argument, you do not use shadowshot to decap. It's mostly shortbow 5 and UC that allow thief's decap potential.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

D/D does suck, and the OP's concerns are largely true, but at the end of the day, the issue is simply that D/D has no mobility to pressure a fleeing target or escape a target pressuring back. CnD in this game-state isn't any good unfortunately because of the amount of huge AoE damage there is which makes using it in attempts to escape often a death sentence. While I like that risk is necessary to acquire stealth, the kit just needs more tools. Shadow Shot on D/D only looks to fix one of these problems; giving D/D SS won't fully fix the kit. It just needs a better gap closer/opener than HS and DB already needs a rework, anyways. Make DB the skill, since if you try to make HS work, you'll change D/P.

Agreed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@CreedOfGod.9764 said:

@"Cynz.9437" said:
  1. D/P does not have shadowstep, it has shadowshot...

shadow shot is a shadowstep
  1. no, it would not be fine without shadowshot. At least not in pvp where your whole role is to +1 and decap crap. UC does not make up for proposed mobility loss because not everyone plays with UC (not to mention latest heavy nerf to the trait that made it very bleh) and you would ruin gameplay of any non-UC d/p player. Have you tried to keep up to enemies in pvp without using ss and UC lately?

This is how d/d feels. But I get it, everyone who enjoys d/p is going to shoot my idea down. As for your decap argument, you do not use shadowshot to decap. It's mostly shortbow 5 and UC that allow thief's decap potential.

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:

D/D does suck, and the OP's concerns are largely true, but at the end of the day, the issue is simply that D/D has no mobility to pressure a fleeing target or escape a target pressuring back. CnD in this game-state isn't any good unfortunately because of the amount of huge AoE damage there is which makes using it in attempts to escape often a death sentence. While I like that risk is necessary to acquire stealth, the kit just needs more tools. Shadow Shot on D/D only looks to fix one of these problems; giving D/D SS won't fully fix the kit. It just needs a better gap closer/opener than HS and DB already needs a rework, anyways. Make DB the skill, since if you try to make HS work, you'll change D/P.

Agreed.

Sahdowstep is teleport with ground targeting not requiring target, on long CD. It has 1200 range.Shadowshot requires target and teleports you to that target. It has normal thief weapon range, so 900.2 Completely different spells with completely different purposes/effects.

I am well aware that D/D feels like this. Once again D/D is there for high damage, not for utility that d/p offers. And once again, since you apparently don't read what i wrote, d/d suffers from said "not being able to stick to the target" issue because Anet powercreeped the crap out of other classes. D/D did not have that issues (at least not as much) before HoT.Nerfing d/p and giving ss to d/d won't do thief as whole any good. Of course anyone who plays d/p going to shoot your idea down: if you didn't notice thief is okeish in pvp right and you ask to nerf decent weapon and ruin game for other players because of YOUR personal preferences.

Once again, you clearly don't read what i wrote or just refuse to understand (or just lack experience): my job as a thief is +1/decap (that is Anet's words btw). I need all the tools i can get to fulfill that role. SS is one of them: it allows me to stick on target and potentially to finish them off, otherwise i couldn't prevent decaps (from other thieves for example) or +1 effectively (given the current amount of mobility other classes have). SS also enables in-out gameplay that you really need as a thief atm due to AoE madness in pvp.

NOT EVERYONE RUNS UC OR DD FOR THAT MATTER /facepalm.

Once again, fix what is broken, do not touch what is working.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Teleports" in this game are often keyworded as 'Shadowsteps' due to there being different kinds; the keyword is used in other abilities in other classes like Jaunt. It is an inconsistency, but his use of terminology is correct.

D/D has always had the same problems. It just wasn't obvious in sPvP since the only classes which built for lots of mobility were thieves, and D/P hard-counters D/D. On the WvW-side of things, D/D has had this struggle for years, as most of the best roaming builds consist of highly-mobile professions to deal with D/P, or simply are D/P players which of course, hard-counters D/D. It's definitely gotten worse, but fundamentally, the problem is the same.

The unfortunate truth is that D/D is generally lacking in high damage as well outside of just optimally rotating CnD in PvE for stabs given the source of most of the thief's damage comes from AA, which D/P is actually better at doing via SS's lower aftercast timer than CnD/Stab, and that its engage is way more potent and reliable given D/P's BV'd backstabs are much easier to pull off and make the actual act of +1'ing deadly instead of requiring setup once joining the fray.

That said, just moving Shadow Shot doesn't solve the issue; D/D needs mobility to get both in and out of attack range in order to actually fulfill the +1 role at all without straight dying upon engage; BP+HS is never not going to provide stealth unless revealed, while CnD is often difficult to pull off if blind/block/invuln/blur/etc. is used by an enemy. Further, this just then hands off the problem to D/P which is left asking for another mobility skill, denying both sets their full potential.

So yeah, DB into a gap closer/opener is the solution.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Cynz.9437 said:Sahdowstep is teleport with ground targeting not requiring target, on long CD. It has 1200 range.Shadowshot requires target and teleports you to that target. It has normal thief weapon range, so 900.2 Completely different spells with completely different purposes/effects.I get that there is a skill called shadowstep. But when a thief teleports, whether it's steal, shortbow 5, d/p 3, sword 2, infiltrator signet or shadowstep, it's called a shadowstep. Js.

Once again, you clearly don't read what i wrote or just refuse to understand (or just lack experience): my job as a thief is +1/decap (that is Anet's words btw). I need all the tools i can get to fulfill that role. SS is one of them: it allows me to stick on target and potentially to finish them off, otherwise i couldn't prevent decaps (from other thieves for example) or +1 effectively (given the current amount of mobility other classes have). SS also enables in-out gameplay that you really need as a thief atm due to AoE madness in pvp.

ok

NOT EVERYONE RUNS UC OR DD FOR THAT MATTER /facepalm.For thief, wouldn't you say meta builds are essential for higher play? Since higher play is what everyone seems to be concerned with. AFAIK meta builds are only dd d/p with some core s/d.

Once again, fix what is broken, do not touch what is working.Only suggested moving shadowshot to balance the give and take(and because i'm selfish). Yeah just fix death blossom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

DD is not as good anymore due to heavy UC nerf and current condi heavy class meta (scourge/mirages). I actually found SA dealing better with scourges btw than DD. So no, i wouldn't say DD is absolute meta atm.

I am glad you see that suggested gimping of d/p was rather selfish. DB indeed needs rework. It really feels awkward in otherwise full power set (and not exactly helpful outside of troll condi build).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@bluri.2653 said:Sd core is more played atm over dp as well

I think it's more just due to the current OP's from PoF, though. Committing to a scourge is suicidal/IR's condi cleanse is pretty much mandatory, and it's the only set capable of dealing with FB at the moment from it's sheer ridiculousness of blocks.

If those two are toned down I think D/P will probably rise again as the more dominant kit, or at the very least, we'd see a healthier mix.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@bluri.2653 said:Sd core is more played atm over dp as well

I think it's more just due to the current OP's from PoF, though. Committing to a scourge is suicidal/IR's condi cleanse is pretty much mandatory, and it's the only set capable of dealing with FB at the moment from it's sheer ridiculousness of blocks.

If those two are toned down I think D/P will probably rise again as the more dominant kit, or at the very least, we'd see a healthier mix.

If FB gets nerfed and Holo nerfed then perhaps

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@bluri.2653 said:

@bluri.2653 said:Sd core is more played atm over dp as well

I think it's more just due to the current OP's from PoF, though. Committing to a scourge is suicidal/IR's condi cleanse is pretty much mandatory, and it's the only set capable of dealing with FB at the moment from it's sheer ridiculousness of blocks.

If those two are toned down I think D/P will probably rise again as the more dominant kit, or at the very least, we'd see a healthier mix.

If FB gets nerfed and Holo nerfed then perhaps

Those are honestly the only two specs keeping D/P out of the meta. It can't bypass blocks completely (bad change to S/D imo but that's a different discussion) and it's too vulnerable to the self aoe multi hit attacks of a spec like holo (back when people used the rocket boots tools alchemy setup d/p did just fine against holo cause they could effectively blind and dodge what they needed to in order to win. The dodge build changes the whole matchup cause it punishes melee so hard). If both of those are toned down/go away D/P would have nothing fully countering it and would be meta viable again. I'd like to see both sets be viable meta choices again as I think it's cool being able to have your thief switch up their style of play based on what team comp you are facing or what comp you want to run.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Ario.8964 said:

@bluri.2653 said:Sd core is more played atm over dp as well

I think it's more just due to the current OP's from PoF, though. Committing to a scourge is suicidal/IR's condi cleanse is pretty much mandatory, and it's the only set capable of dealing with FB at the moment from it's sheer ridiculousness of blocks.

If those two are toned down I think D/P will probably rise again as the more dominant kit, or at the very least, we'd see a healthier mix.

If FB gets nerfed and Holo nerfed then perhaps

Those are honestly the only two specs keeping D/P out of the meta. It can't bypass blocks completely (bad change to S/D imo but that's a different discussion) and it's too vulnerable to the self aoe multi hit attacks of a spec like holo (back when people used the rocket boots tools alchemy setup d/p did just fine against holo cause they could effectively blind and dodge what they needed to in order to win. The dodge build changes the whole matchup cause it punishes melee so hard). If both of those are toned down/go away D/P would have nothing fully countering it and would be meta viable again. I'd like to see both sets be viable meta choices again as I think it's cool being able to have your thief switch up their style of play based on what team comp you are facing or what comp you want to run.

S/D could still be played vs non dp thief comps even after nerfs ya

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@bluri.2653 said:

@bluri.2653 said:Sd core is more played atm over dp as well

I think it's more just due to the current OP's from PoF, though. Committing to a scourge is suicidal/IR's condi cleanse is pretty much mandatory, and it's the only set capable of dealing with FB at the moment from it's sheer ridiculousness of blocks.

If those two are toned down I think D/P will probably rise again as the more dominant kit, or at the very least, we'd see a healthier mix.

If FB gets nerfed and Holo nerfed then perhaps

Those are honestly the only two specs keeping D/P out of the meta. It can't bypass blocks completely (bad change to S/D imo but that's a different discussion) and it's too vulnerable to the self aoe multi hit attacks of a spec like holo (back when people used the rocket boots tools alchemy setup d/p did just fine against holo cause they could effectively blind and dodge what they needed to in order to win. The dodge build changes the whole matchup cause it punishes melee so hard). If both of those are toned down/go away D/P would have nothing fully countering it and would be meta viable again. I'd like to see both sets be viable meta choices again as I think it's cool being able to have your thief switch up their style of play based on what team comp you are facing or what comp you want to run.

S/D could still be played vs non dp thief comps even after nerfs ya

That'd be the ideal situation and in it's current state it'd be a solid competition between the two with S/D most likely taking the edge as it's overperforming a bit right now (focused on thief only balance, this discounts the other meta builds being used). With the right changes to S/D and other meta builds D/P could see a comeback in usage and a solid choice between the two sets for some great diversity in thief gameplay (best since cele era)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still dont underatand the reasoning for the double steal trait in acro, is it something anet wanted to do to rival PI trait or something? Seems a bit overwhelming at times.

Back on topic d/d has power AA power #2 Condi #3 hybrid #4 and power #5 all a part from 1 skill is meleed and looks like a mess of random stuff thrown together.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:I still dont underatand the reasoning for the double steal trait in acro, is it something anet wanted to do to rival PI trait or something? Seems a bit overwhelming at times.

Back on topic d/d has power we power #2 Condi #3 hybrid #4 and power #5 all a part from 1 skill is meleed and looks like a mess of random stuff thrown together.

The fs+larc buff plus steal trait made it more or less viable, without it i dont think it would work good in pvp

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...