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Weaver seems too strong.


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So... I just 80 boosted an elementalist. (my second one... I like my tempest too much to give it up... So made a second one for Weaver.)

I have a Grieving Ascended staff. (yes, it should be berserker, clicked the wrong thing on the select-a-stat thing, didn't notice till later.) I have berserker exotic armor. I have ascended "marauder" trinkets that had been sitting in my bank sense the beginning of fractals. And the +1 power backpack straps. Scholar, force, air.

I know this is only playing optimal on TV... But my traits are the SnowCrows air version of the dps build.

So... I hit the golem, and first try in realistic buffs... I hit 18k. Got confused because SC talks about 46k. Watched the rotation video... I wasn't hustling my CD's correctly.

Tried again. 27kdps. Tried for an hour straight, polishing my muscle memory to a shine. Best stats: 31.4k

Here's the problem... My other raid characters (a condi mirage, and condi renegade) just can't hit that number. Both fully ascended and running meta builds 3/4 infused.

Mirage hits 30k if I'm ON FIRE with the rotation.

Renegade hits 27k if I'm ON FIRE.

Weaver... In vanilla release gear.... Half geared with close-enough stats... Can match them, with a tiny amount of time investment.

Berserker gear is super easy to make... Which would be fine, except that the delta between power Weaver and everything else is so high, that I feel like I wasted months of my time fully gearing a pair of vipers head-to-toe characters with expensive runes and sigils.

All this time, instead of working my ass off for gear, and timing endurance and energy regeneration for subpar dps.... I could have 80 boosted this Weaver and learned to spam 2 and 3 between attunement swaps.

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I mean... That shouldn't account for a difference that large.

I play guitar, so making my fingers do complicated things just isn't a concern for me. I should not have an unfair advantage because the devs don't play guitar.

So, if we take player skill out of the equation and assume a perfect rotation... Weaver is still really high

Mirage is like 3rd in the benchmark list. Yet I have to pay super close attention to my bars to keep my swapping at the right moment... And mesmer is my first ever character sense launch. Elementalist was a curiosity for me until Weaver... And my tempest never touched staff... So with 4 unfamiliar quick bars, and almost no practice... I BLEW AWAY my numbers from mirage. From my fully ascended mirage. From a fully ascend mirage with perfect rotations... With an exotic armored Weaver with no back piece and wrong stat trinkets and weapons...

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Weaver (tempest) have always been one of the strongest power DPS in the meta. For a class that has a high-skill cap in rotation deserves that spot in significant damage if executed, it also has one of the lowest HP pools to make up for it. Some classes are just meta, others arent exactly. Also Weaver just has a ton of pulsing AoE power damage.

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Raids are already easy as hell, sure weaver is strong on big hitbox. In organized group where you know what to expect from everyone, weaver rules. But if you are in a PUG group, expect to weaver to be super bad, since it's a selfish dps class. It has no team buffs, literally no cc. If a group runs nothing but weaver dps it the job of the rest of the team to keep them alive and do all the breakbars, since weaver can't cc without losing massive amounts of dmg. A lot of pug groups struggle with cc already, so if you run 5 weavers, that 5 less people that can cc, in a pug group everyone has to contribute as you can't expect everyone to do their job properly. Without perfect team and perfect buffs weaver will have a hard time, not to mention real raid isn't stationary golem where all your attacks will hit constantly.

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@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

Check it out for yourselves.

Top dps on both large and small hit box.

And not by a small amount either.

Yet they arent used on a bunch of bosses. It's pretty clear that you don't understand benchmarks or, more importantly, how the class plays in actual encounters, so maybe try to not make up solutions for problems that dont exist?

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It’s not just a difficult class to play due to the complex rotation. Eles are also paper. They are also pretty reliant on stationary bosses. They may look op from just testing on golems and looking at benchmarks, but it’s a different thing when dealing with actual raid damage and mechanics.

As long as eles aren’t required over other builds because of the advantage, I’m fine with it.

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One thing that's worth noting is that a Weaver requires an effective Chronomancer in its subgroup to achieve those DPS numbers against a significant number of bosses. Weaver is the most vulnerable of all classes to being forced to interrupt its DPS rotation due to the long cast times on its biggest skills. Dodging also isn't a part of its DPS rotation, unlike classes like Daredevil or Mirage, which are very strong for how defensive they are.

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The golem is just there for testing things and building muscle memory, compare your builds on different bosses and game modes

The only bosses where I always take weaver are kc and deimos. Most of the time I have a class that offers something I prefer over weaver. There are many bosses where weaver is terrible for different reasons. So I don't think it's op.

In my opinion a build becomes op when it is getting top dps on encounters that shouldn't really favor it. Currently condi axe mirage seems a bit too good, but it's not really a big problem.

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Nah, I'm with the OP. Eles have been apart of the META forever. Their rotation isn't complex at all. It's literally just more buttons to press. The only thing that makes Elementalist hard is their low health pool which is really only a problem for new players who have to learn content/mechanics.

Honestly, the whole AoE thing is being terribly abused IMHO. AoE is meant to be effective against multiple targets. This Big hitbox/Smallhitbox kitten is rather silly. The only thing that should be giving Eles a DPS edge is their ability to clear many targets since they have a slew of AoE skills at their disposal. As for their boss damage Benchmarks, the margin of DPS from class to class shouldn't be so wide. Should really be a 2-3% difference. Sword should really be their Boss Damage DPS weapon of choice since it is single-target centric. Yet the staff remains best choice cause idk you can hit the boss in different places many times with one attack. Whaaaaaat???!

https://imgur.com/a/qZXWA

Above is DPS screen of Tempest on bosses in fractals. No adds. That's just outrageous. No profession comes close to this I hope everyone knows. Weaver is even stronger with 70-80k initial bursts when fully min/max. This thread shouldn't really have people disagreeing. ELE DPS OP is just dead facts since the start of the game.

https://images-ext-2.discordapp.net/external/anys5OYj36pFO15x_zQBvUMsBHG8ueXpqXCYYvrBetU/https/i.imgur.com/0kF7FeV.png

oopps we did it again :~] The holo, btw, is hardly necessary and can be filled by.... drumroll.... another weaver. lawls. A tad too strong? ElE needs to take a seat.

Atleast its not as bad before the expansion when it was ElE ElE ElE ElE War.. oh, wait... it is.

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@IonoI.3956 said:The golem is just there for testing things and building muscle memory, compare your builds on different bosses and game modes

The only bosses where I always take weaver are kc and deimos. Most of the time I have a class that offers something I prefer over weaver. There are many bosses where weaver is terrible for different reasons. So I don't think it's op.

In my opinion a build becomes op when it is getting top dps on encounters that shouldn't really favor it. Currently condi axe mirage seems a bit too good, but it's not really a big problem.

Condition Mirage is good for all of about 3 bosses and that's pushing it. It's META for two bosses actually (Mattias and Cairn). MO is MO and you can bring just about anything. So three really. Weaver is preferred for nearly every single boss encounter in raids. And outside of raids their power creep is mad.

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@"dontlook.1823" said:Nah, I'm with the OP. Eles have been apart of the META forever. Their rotation isn't complex at all. It's literally just more buttons to press. The only thing that makes Elementalist hard is their low health pool which is really only a problem for new players who have to learn content/mechanics.

Honestly, the whole AoE thing is being terribly abused IMHO. AoE is meant to be effective against multiple targets. This Big hitbox/Smallhitbox kitten is rather silly. The only thing that should be giving Eles a DPS edge is their ability to clear many targets since they have a slew of AoE skills at their disposal. As for their boss damage Benchmarks, the margin of DPS from class to class shouldn't be so wide. Should really be a 2-3% difference. Sword should really be their Boss Damage DPS weapon of choice since it is single target centric. Yet the staff is still remains best choice cause idk you can hit the boss in different places many times with one attack. Whaaaaaat???!

https://imgur.com/a/qZXWA

Above is DPS screen of Tempest on bosses in fractals. No adds. That's just outrageous. No profession comes close to this I hope everyone knows. Weaver is even stronger with 70-80k initial bursts when fully min/max. This thread shouldn't really have people disagreeing. ELE DPS OP is just dead facts since the start of the game.

https://images-ext-2.discordapp.net/external/anys5OYj36pFO15x_zQBvUMsBHG8ueXpqXCYYvrBetU/https/i.imgur.com/0kF7FeV.png

oopps we did it again :~] The holo, btw, is hardly necessary and can be filled by.... drumroll.... another weaver. lawls. A tad too strong. ElE needs to take a seat.

Atleast its not as bad before the expansion when it was ElE ElE ElE ElE War.. oh, wait... it is.

many people in this thread didn't know the game well or just saying whatever they believe to avoid nerf to weaver . i think they did not play with a good comp in fractal cm to see the huge difference . especially cm 99 .It's fine for ele being top dps , its not fine that the top dps is 10 K above second dps and it's with one of best aoe + ranged weapon .not to mention tempest defense is ridiculous op in fotm .

you have to practice for 45+ dps , but you don't have to be qt to get higher dps than 35k and that's above any other class in most cases .im all for situational dps . but weaver is best for most boss fights in this game .and completely dominate 5 man content .

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@"Theros.1390" said:Weaver can do 46k, but it is squishy like hell. Mirage is not Squishy at all. Renegade gots a heavy armor. You can solo MAMA with a Mirage, you cant with a staff Weaver. That's the difference.

To be fair, MAMA was solo'ed by a staff Tempest (I know, not Weaver)... just saying...

Also, to be fair, it wasn't done by a mere mortal either ;)

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Many people present straight up LIES here trying to pass them off as facts. At start I thought this was a troll thread, but since some people seem to take it seriously, let's clear up the confusion.

First off, MAMA has indeed been soloed by meta staff weaver (possibly with little tweaks like sigils) played by the incredibly talented Roul [sC] as seen here -

But if anything, this solo proves how WEAK weaver is, not strong. People can casually solo MAMA on many classes without much problems, keeping up very strong DPS uptime which results in better overall DPS. With weaver on the other hand, even a seasoned veteran and one of the best ele players in the game was forced to play defensively and took over 2 hours with many wipes just to be able to get the solo done.

Anyone who reads the disclaimer below qT or SC benchmarks should also know that golem values differ greatly from actual numbers in raids themselves. That is why weaver is considered meta only for a handful of bosses, unlike for example renegade and holosmith who dominate nearly all of them thanks to being able to do competitive DPS as well as providing valuable party-wide buffs (and other utility like CC).

Let's not kid oursleves - on fights where weaver is meta, it is indeed extremely strong. No class can even get close to a properly played weaver on KC. Similar case in fractals, especially on big hitboxes like 99CM bosses. But to be also fair, playing weaver successfully takes a lot of talent and should be rewarded correspondingly. If you nerf weaver's ability to do damage, it will make it absolutely terrible on fights where it's currently not meta, and it will be barely worth it on the other ones (you already see many DHs in fractals and various DPS classes on KC).

All I can say is... please refrain from drawing conclusions and making suggestions about the game's balance if you don't know anything about it. Just because you discovered the golem training facility yesterday, it doesn't make you an expert on class balance.

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@"Tarasicodissa.7084" said:Many people present straight up LIES here trying to pass them off as facts. At start I thought this was a troll thread, but since some people seem to take it seriously, let's clear up the confusion.

First off, MAMA has indeed been soloed by meta staff weaver (possibly with little tweaks like sigils) played by the incredibly talented Roul [sC] as seen here -

But if anything, this solo proves how WEAK weaver is, not strong. People can casually solo MAMA on many classes without much problems, keeping up very strong DPS uptime which results in better overall DPS. With weaver on the other hand, even a seasoned veteran and one of the best ele players in the game was forced to play defensively and took over 2 hours with many wipes just to be able to get the solo done.

Anyone who reads the disclaimer below qT or SC benchmarks should also know that golem values differ greatly from actual numbers in raids themselves. That is why weaver is considered meta only for a handful of bosses, unlike for example renegade and holosmith who dominate nearly all of them thanks to being able to do competitive DPS as well as providing valuable party-wide buffs (and other utility like CC).

Let's not kid oursleves - on fights where weaver is meta, it is indeed extremely strong. No class can even get close to a properly played weaver on KC. Similar case in fractals, especially on big hitboxes like 99CM bosses. But to be also fair, playing weaver successfully takes a lot of talent and should be rewarded correspondingly. If you nerf weaver's ability to do damage, it will make it absolutely terrible on fights where it's currently not meta, and it will be barely worth it on the other ones (you already see many DHs in fractals and various DPS classes on KC).

All I can say is... please refrain from drawing conclusions and making suggestions about the game's balance if you don't know anything about it. Just because you discovered the golem training facility yesterday, it doesn't make you an expert on class balance.

Elementalist's DPS has been OP long before the introduction of those kitty golems. Handful? Ten raid bosses is not a handful. That would require both hands and is the majority of the bosses. Sure people don't have to bring Elementalist to every fight but they are the optimal choice meaning all other professions are sub-optimal. No getting around it. A nerf to bring them more in-line with other professions is not a bad idea. ;) Their power creep is real. They do more DPS than any other profession. Facts are facts.Also, claiming everyone is and I quote, "Many people present straight up LIES ," is wrong. Especially since I provided evidence. And who is this many anyways? 99% of the people in this thread disagree with the OP for whatever reason.

And, Ahem, the Elementalist got 3 new damage modifying traits with Weaver making this new spec, IN FACT, stronger not weaker. In addition, basing your argument off of someone who solo'd something is really trivial. As content isn't designed to be solo'd at all. That's just a feat. And realistically, as it stands, ELE still has the potential to obtain the highest DPS even when soloing.Three new Damage modifiers:Superior Elements 15%+ crit percentage when enemy has weaknessSwift Revenge 7%+ Damage when under swiftnessElements of Rage 10%+ Damage Upon attunement swap.

And this is a huge disclaimer to everyone: It doesn't take much talent to pull of an Ele's rotation. Idk.. People must think its hard because they have to cast a conjured weapon and pick it up. Oh me, oh my.

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Ele should have highest dps on gorse, sloth, KC, Sama, Deimos and Dhuum. Thats not 10 bosses.I prefer holo over weaver on xera and only take weavers for the shard clear there.There are also multiple bosses where Weaver is just terrible. Desmina for example.

Most of the problem in fractals comes from tempest defense which should be removed entirely. It was good and situational when breakbars weren't in the game but now its ridiculous since you burst most fractal bosses during 1 breakbar. There are also fractals where weaver isn't that superior. Twilight oasis endboss and urban for example.Twilight oasis endboss should have small hitbox, way too many phases and no breakbar bonus so Holo or DH shouldn't be far behind or can actually be better.

Additionally Weaver brings zero support and is only taken for damage. If they decide to nerf the damage too much it would be better to just run Holo + renegade which are already really strong in raids.Encounter design limits Weaver dps the most. Weaver is almost useless if there is some rng movement involved like on desmina.

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@Nephalem.8921 said:Ele should have highest dps on gorse, sloth, KC, Sama, Deimos and Dhuum. Thats not 10 bosses.I prefer holo over weaver on xera and only take weavers for the shard clear there.There are also multiple bosses where Weaver is just terrible. Desmina for example.

Most of the problem in fractals comes from tempest defense which should be removed entirely. It was good and situational when breakbars weren't in the game but now its ridiculous since you burst most fractal bosses during 1 breakbar. There are also fractals where weaver isn't that superior. Twilight oasis endboss and urban for example.Twilight oasis endboss should have small hitbox, way too many phases and no breakbar bonus so Holo or DH shouldn't be far behind or can actually be better.

Additionally Weaver brings zero support and is only taken for damage. If they decide to nerf the damage too much it would be better to just run Holo + renegade which are already really strong in raids.Encounter design limits Weaver dps the most. Weaver is almost useless if there is some rng movement involved like on desmina.

Desmina weavers still have the highest reported DPS. As well as for Dhumm. That's 9. IDK you can throw in MO and Vale to make it 10 or 11. This rng movement argument is beyond trite and trivial as this doesn't apply to Elementalists who know how to position themselves.

Also, they are doing just as they are suppose to do as a DPS role. DPS shouldn't be expected to bring support. Weaver has the highest reported DPS for Amala btw. As for other fractals they rein supreme on most bosses and aside from that they clear faster than another profession due to AoE spam.

I do agree with you on tempest defense, though. +20% damage is really high. Should give an extra lighting strike or something when cc'd. But that couple'd with the huge array of damage modifiers ElEs have is a bit outrageous.

(little off topic) I further think a trait like Tempest defense is something that should be afforded to the Mesmer since they are all about stunning their foes. As of now Superiority Complex is nice but we have one modifier for Ferocity so the crits are a bit underwhelming.

I am going to go ahead and say I don't mind them being at the top. I will say, though, I don't like them topping people out by so much.Damage modifiersFerocious WindsTempest DefenseBolt to the HeartEmpowering FlamePyromancer's TrainingBurning RageSuperior ElementsSwift RevengeElements of RageElemental Polyphony

+more outside of Meta builds.

I guarantee you the only reason people perceive Weavers as weak is because they are being underused in the PvP scene. That is the only reason word of nerf to Weaver sounds so foreign.

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I'm amazed at the number of people who want to imagine I "just discovered the golem yesterday" or "don't understand class balance".

I mean... Did it feel good to tell me off? I have a different opinion... I MUST be shamed into accepting the communal lie, right?

So... Im gearing my Weaver. I too like to play OP cheese. I just don't lie to myself about the fact that it isn't fair.

It's been top damage forever.... Other classes bring glass selfish dps. And all of them are WAY outside meta.

The amount it beats other classes by, not only on the golem but on every boss where it is preferred... (go check the snowcrows.com link I posted.... I know I linked to the benchmark main page... But there's actually numbers listed for each boss too... Why is it that you assume I'm dense because I didn't link each individual boss chart... When it you who didn't explore the page... I dunno.).... Is absurd.

So, I get that you've been pouring money and time into your Weaver mains... And I am too... And generally you don't want to see it nerfed. I get that. But I'll take a Weaver nerf with a buff in other places if it shuffles the meta and makes Weaver more middle-of-the-pack and less king-of-the-hill.

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Scourge and mirage have higher dps on desmina and holo + renegade aswell if you consider their buffs.Holos and DHs are king on vg. Even if weaver has good dps on boss taking one slows done the splits.Weaver isn't even top on any small hitbox raidboss according to raidar logs.

And according to you skilled eles have the ability to look into the future to know where they have to place conjures on rng movement bosses like desmina.The problem isn't that weaver is too strong everywhere. Its people asking for weavers everywhere even when there are better options especially in pugs.Dps shouldn't bring support? All the other dps professions have at least some kind of cc or useful utility. Don't forget renegade's or holo's buffs. Even if they have lower dps. taking them could result in actual higher group dps. Thats why holo is meta an almost every boss and weaver is not. He only has his abuse big hitbox niche in raids.

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Didn't ever say that dps shouldn't bring support. Just that theres more than one supportless dps class.

The delta in damage is still too high.

Half geared and no practice, shouldn't beat fully ascended and very practiced.

Also... Never said anything about magically looking into the future. Why do you people need to make me look like an a hole? Every time.

Why not just argue the point. You don't have to put words in my mouth to spike me like a volleyball for your ego's benefit.

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The reason people think you just discovered the golem is you didn't bother to take your newly found amazing weaver into a raid. If you had you would have discovered you will do more damage on mirage at the very least on vg, sab (no cannons), sloth, matt, xera, cairn, sh, dhumm (meaning every hard fight where dps matters). The reason weaver is top on most charts is for reasons most people here will not be able to replicate.

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@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:So... I just 80 boosted an elementalist. (my second one... I like my tempest too much to give it up... So made a second one for Weaver.)

I have a Grieving Ascended staff. (yes, it should be berserker, clicked the wrong thing on the select-a-stat thing, didn't notice till later.) I have berserker exotic armor. I have ascended "marauder" trinkets that had been sitting in my bank sense the beginning of fractals. And the +1 power backpack straps. Scholar, force, air.

I know this is only playing optimal on TV... But my traits are the SnowCrows air version of the dps build.

So... I hit the golem, and first try in realistic buffs... I hit 18k. Got confused because SC talks about 46k. Watched the rotation video... I wasn't hustling my CD's correctly.

Tried again. 27kdps. Tried for an hour straight, polishing my muscle memory to a shine. Best stats: 31.4k

Here's the problem... My other raid characters (a condi mirage, and condi renegade) just can't hit that number. Both fully ascended and running meta builds 3/4 infused.

Mirage hits 30k if I'm ON FIRE with the rotation.

Renegade hits 27k if I'm ON FIRE.

Weaver... In vanilla release gear.... Half geared with close-enough stats... Can match them, with a tiny amount of time investment.

Berserker gear is super easy to make... Which would be fine, except that the delta between power Weaver and everything else is so high, that I feel like I wasted months of my time fully gearing a pair of vipers head-to-toe characters with expensive runes and sigils.

All this time, instead of working my kitten off for gear, and timing endurance and energy regeneration for subpar dps.... I could have 80 boosted this Weaver and learned to spam 2 and 3 between attunement swaps.

The thing is, you are rarely fighting a dummy golem. Weaver has the highest damage potential, that's true. He's also the quickest to lose this potential due to both imperfect play and imperfect conditions. And he also has nothing to offer aside from damage. Is Weaver strong? Sure. Is Weaver too strong? Only when you can guarantee perfect conditions.

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