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The state of the condition Holosmith and Engineer in PvE (January 2018)


Geisterlicht.6083

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wall of text incoming(tl;dr at the bottom, read bold parts)

General:With the introduction of Holosmith as an elite-specialization, engineers were given a shiny new tool, that added a fun, “warrior-like” kit to our toolbox.

Because of the natural imbalance that occurs when 9 new specializations enter the game, first Holosmith was not the focus of many people.Other Specs were just way stronger, until the 7th November update evened things out a little.

At that point people accepted power-Holosmith as a valid contribution to raid meta teams, and it remained solid since then (got even some minor buffs).

Condi:Its condition counterpart suffered from not being able to beat the core condition engineer and most people forgot about it (Photon Forge added almost nothing to condition engineers).

However, that was only one part of reality.Right at the point of the introduction of Holosmith there was a condition holosmith

that could outdps both core engineer and power holosmith.

The problem of that build was, that it relied on Vigor and dodges to avoid overheating (Thermal Release Valve).Therefore, it could not fit into most meta compositions.

Now, since the GotL changes, we have a reliable source of Vigor in one of our subgroups, and the current condition engi benchmark uses Vigor as a realistic boon.

currently:Because of a PvP-centered nerf of Thermal Release Valve, the damage potential of condi Holosmith got reduced by so much that even the small “buffs” to photon forge (namely projectile finishers) could not bring it up to the level of a core condition engineer.

numbers:As it now stands, my current personal golem benchmark for condition Holosmith is is about 1k lower than core condi engineer.

Suggested “Fix” or “balance-changes”:

  • Make Lasers Edge take effect above 50% heat – inside AND outside of PF, that way all three GM traits profit about the same amount and offer a more balanced playstyle choice (this would not affect PBM in any way).

  • Fix Solar Focusing Lens to apply an additional 2 stacks of the effect upon leaving PF – that way the dmg buff it provides remains the same, regardless which grandmaster trait you choose (currently it only applies the buff on entering PF and overheating).

These changes won’t change the fact, that condi lies behind power, even in sustained fights.But it would even out the DPS-impact of the grandmaster choice.It would make the Grandmaster Traits more into a playstyle choice rather than a “much more DPS-choice”.At the same time this would put condi holo on the same level as core condition engineer making this a playstyle-choice as well.

Tl;drBy changing the above-mentioned traits, condi holosmith and condi engineer would be about equal in dps, and the available grandmaster traits would be more balanced than right now.

Additional balancing proposal for general condition engi:

  • After these changes, I would change “Short Fuse” into a trait that increases baseline bombkit-condition-duration by 20% (instead of reducing the bomb CD by 20%) + keep its part about the shorter fuse time.

This way, both specs remain valid and condi engineers get a master-explosives trait that synergizes with the rest of the spec.

These are three small trait changes, that would bring in a lot more variety.

Let me know what you think.

Edit:Added

to an old golem rotation vid from October 2017.And while it is outdated, it still shows how Photon Forge could be incorporated into a working condi-rotation: That's assuming vigor is provided or you are in
(mist mobility potion).

Edit2:Another thing that i would like to get changed in core traits: make the trait "Glass Cannon" affect condition dmg aswell as power dmg.This would make its complex condi rotation worth the effort.(I guess all those mentioned changes together would push condi engi/holo from 32k to 34k.)

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I like your ideas but I believe it's more realistic to adapt tools and some explosives traits into some condi traits, IE:

  • Give the 10% power damage buff with vigor the revenant treatment and make it 7% power 7% condi.

  • Your bomb kit trait idea.

  • Blasting zone reworked into a condi trait since that tier already has glass cannon. That or make glass cannon a condi trait (both power focused ATM).

  • Making static discharge inflict bleeding or confusion or any other relevant condi for engi.

That way condi engi would be in a much better spot. It's the most demanding build PvE has and it should have a better payout.

Sadly I don't think we'll get anything on this balance patch and Scrapper is also in dire need of heavy buffs imo.

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@Lunateric.3708 said:That way condi engi would be in a much better spot. It's the most demanding build PvE has and it should have a better payout.

Absolutely agree with that.^Explosives, as well as Tools should have more synergy with the condition spec, and that is where I would up the overall condition dmg output for that spec.

I just hope they improve something next week :s

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@"Geisterlicht.6083" said:Suggested “Fix” or “balance-changes”:

  • Make Lasers Edge take effect above 50% heat – inside AND outside of PF, that way all three GM traits profit about the same amount and offer a more balanced playstyle choice (this would not affect PBM in any way).

  • Fix Solar Focusing Lens to apply an additional 2 stacks of the effect upon leaving PF – that way the dmg buff it provides remains the same, regardless which grandmaster trait you choose (currently it only applies the buff on entering PF and overheating).

I can get behind your suggestion for Lasers Edge or Solar Focusing Lens. Additionally, I personally preferred the additional crit chance on Sword AA when having high heat over the current flat damage bonus. It was way more flexible and appealing for hybrid or condi builds (hello Firearms). No idea why it was changed.

@Lunateric.3708 said:I like your ideas but I believe it's more realistic to adapt tools and some explosives traits into some condi traits, IE:

  • Give the 10% power damage buff with vigor the revenant treatment and make it 7% power 7% condi.

  • Your bomb kit trait idea.

  • Blasting zone reworked into a condi trait since that tier already has glass cannon. That or make glass cannon a condi trait (both power focused ATM).

  • Making static discharge inflict bleeding or confusion or any other relevant condi for engi.

That way condi engi would be in a much better spot. It's the most demanding build PvE has and it should have a better payout.

Sadly I don't think we'll get anything on this balance patch and Scrapper is also in dire need of heavy buffs imo.

Whaaa... Firearms is condition focussed. Explosives is rather hybrid already. Tools simply isn't condition focussed. Why make it about it?

Explosives could need a condi focussed trait on the Master level. I give you that. But that's it. Grenadier is on Adept, Shrapnel is on GM. I'm a huge opponent of making Bomb kit more suitable for condition builds. Heck, I'd rather see it be more power + debuff and CC and even less condi.

Regarding Static Discharge: They won't add conditions without nerfing power damage which would screw over power builds.

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@Xaylin.1860 said:

@"Geisterlicht.6083" said:
Suggested “Fix” or “balance-changes”
:
  • Make
    take effect above 50% heat – inside AND outside of PF, that way all three GM traits profit about the same amount and offer a more balanced playstyle choice (this would not affect
    in any way).
  • Fix
    to apply an additional 2 stacks of the effect upon leaving PF – that way the dmg buff it provides remains the same, regardless which grandmaster trait you choose (currently it only applies the buff on entering PF and overheating).

I can get behind your suggestion for Lasers Edge or Solar Focusing Lens. Additionally, I personally preferred the additional crit chance on Sword AA when having high heat over the current flat damage bonus. It was way more flexible and appealing for hybrid or condi builds (hello Firearms). No idea why it was changed.

@Lunateric.3708 said:I like your ideas but I believe it's more realistic to adapt tools and some explosives traits into some condi traits, IE:
  • Give the 10% power damage buff with vigor the revenant treatment and make it 7% power 7% condi.
  • Your bomb kit trait idea.
  • Blasting zone reworked into a condi trait since that tier already has glass cannon. That or make glass cannon a condi trait (both power focused ATM).
  • Making static discharge inflict bleeding or confusion or any other relevant condi for engi.

That way condi engi would be in a much better spot. It's the most demanding build PvE has and it should have a better payout.

Sadly I don't think we'll get anything on this balance patch and Scrapper is also in dire need of heavy buffs imo.

Whaaa... Firearms is condition focussed. Explosives is rather hybrid already. Tools simply isn't condition focussed. Why make it about it?

Explosives could need a condi focussed trait on the Master level. I give you that. But that's it. Grenadier is on Adept, Shrapnel is on GM. I'm a huge opponent of making Bomb kit more suitable for condition builds. Heck, I'd rather see it be more power + debuff and CC and even less condi.

Regarding Static Discharge: They won't add conditions without nerfing power damage which would screw over power builds.

Firearms isn't condition focused unless you're thinking crit chance on bleed and in X range, Ferocity with fury and 2% power damage buff with each condi has any semblance of condi focused (being sarcastic here). It has both kinds of traits for both kinds of builds and that is something every traitline for vanilla engi needs. The static discharge change I propose is an easy balance catch 22: if your build is power the extra condi damage is depreciable, if it's a condi build the power damage also is.

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To me Firearms is definitely dps oriented and perfectly balanced - you have options for both playstyles in each slot.

Explosives seems dps-oriented, but has no condi-choices in two out of three slots.

And Tools looks more like a utility traitline, it is fine for me. Could be more interesting, but not necessarily dps oriented.

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@"Geisterlicht.6083" said:

With the introduction of Holosmith as an elite-specialization, engineers were given a shiny new tool, that added a fun, “warrior-like” kit to our toolbox.

I do not know about anyone else, but you lost me here when you declared something as "fun" in a way that suggests you are speaking for every single sole in the community. Especially when you compare it to warrior and in so, suggest somehow that a "warrior-like" aspect of any kind if fun. I do not know about anyone else, but I have never found the golden child of Anet to ever be the pinnacle of fun for me personally.

Because of the natural imbalance that occurs when 9 new specializations enter the game, first Holosmith was not the focus of many people.

I think the "natural imbalance" originally comes with a lack of meta and understanding of new elite speaks immediately after they are released. This is amplified by the demands of an uninformed community "demanding" nerfs and buffs based on a lack of the settling of the meta combined with players lack of ability with elite specs they have not yet learned to play. I mean, this is just my personal opinion, but look as scrapper, for example, being a CC based elite spec, had all the entire skill type of professional skills neutered the stun/daze on gryo destruction and made https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Impact_Savant infinintly of lesser value.

Other Specs were just way stronger, until the 7th November update evened things out a little.

Unfortunately in most cases outside of PvP the other specs are still a great deal stronger.

At that point people accepted power-Holosmith as a valid contribution to raid meta teams, and it remained solid since then (got even some minor buffs).

There is more to this game than raids. Personally, I think balancing around raids is a poorly thought out perspective. They should start by greatly deviating skills between WvW, PvP, and PvE.

Condi:Its condition counterpart suffered from not being able to beat the core condition engineer and most people forgot about it (Photon Forge added almost nothing to condition engineers).

I wouldn't say it 'suffered', I would simply say it is a power focused elite spec. Just like some others are condition focused.

Because of a PvP-centered nerf of Thermal Release Valve, the damage potential of condi Holosmith got reduced by so much that even the small “buffs” to photon forge (namely projectile finishers) could not bring it up to the level of a core condition engineer.

I fell you. I have had my beloved WvW skills nerfed endlesly because of crying from PvEr's. it is why I suggested above "They should start by greatly deviating skills between WvW, PvP, and PvE. '

numbers:As it now stands, my current personal golem benchmark for condition Holosmith is is about 1k lower than core condi engineer.

I am less concerned with practical use that practice "golem benchmark". Personally I find that using the equivalent of an inanimant object to control balance making descissions has entire ruined the game.

Suggested “Fix” or “balance-changes”:

  • Make Lasers Edge take effect above 50% heat – inside AND outside of PF, that way all three GM traits profit about the same amount and offer a more balanced playstyle choice (this would not affect PBM in any way).

Personally, I think tying value to a punishing mechanic is part of the problem.

  • Fix Solar Focusing Lens to apply an additional 2 stacks of the effect upon leaving PF – that way the dmg buff it provides remains the same, regardless which grandmaster trait you choose (currently it only applies the buff on entering PF and overheating).

Personally, I think that would be better served if it directly benefited the utility skills themselves and not what I consider a bad mechanic.

These changes won’t change the fact, that condi lies behind power, even in sustained fights.

Well yeah, it is a power focused spec. This statement could be applied to any profession elite spec with power focused skills.

It would make the Grandmaster Traits more into a playstyle choice rather than a “much more DPS-choice”.

In my opinion, part of the games downfall in my eyes is the fact that DPS is the only playstyle, at least in PvE.

At the same time this would put condi holo on the same level as core condition engineer making this a playstyle-choice as well.

Why do condition and power-focused elite specs need to be on the same level?

Tl;drBy changing the above-mentioned traits, condi holosmith and condi engineer would be about equal in dps, and the available grandmaster traits would be more balanced than right now.

So I am curious, what about 'scrapper'? You appear to promote the notion here that elite specs should be equivalent, why just the one?

Additional balancing proposal for general condition engi:

  • After these changes, I would change “Short Fuse” into a trait that increases baseline bombkit-condition-duration by 20% (instead of reducing the bomb CD by 20%) + keep its part about the shorter fuse time.

Don't shorter fuse times innately increase bombs condition damage? Why change both?

These are three small trait changes, that would bring in a lot more variety.

Let me know what you think.

Edit:Added

to an old golem rotation vid from October 2017.And while it is outdated, it still shows how Photon Forge could be incorporated into a working condi-rotation: That's assuming vigor is provided or you are in
(mist mobility potion).

That is not what I call diversity. That is simply making two specific builds have a level of DPS equality.

I know most of my points are simply contrarian to yours, but that is simply because I feel your perspective of approaching this direct DPS equality across the board is a flawed notion.

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@coglin.1496 said:

@"Geisterlicht.6083" said:

With the introduction of
as an elite-specialization, engineers were given a shiny new tool, that added a fun, “warrior-like” kit to our toolbox.

I do not know about anyone else, but you lost me here when you declared something as "fun" in a way that suggests you are speaking for every single sole in the community. Especially when you compare it to warrior and in so, suggest somehow that a "warrior-like" aspect of any kind if fun. I do not know about anyone else, but I have never found the golden child of Anet to ever be the pinnacle of fun for me personally.

Probably I should have written “that added a flashy, “berserker-like” kit to our toolbox”.I do not compare it directly to the warrior profession, to me warrior is the most boring spec, and I would not want my engi to become one.It’s just a skill spam transform with not much options if you want so.

Because of the natural imbalance that occurs when 9 new specializations enter the game, first Holosmith was not the focus of many people.

I think the "natural imbalance" originally comes with a lack of meta and understanding of new elite speaks immediately after they are released. This is amplified by the demands of an uninformed community "demanding" nerfs and buffs based on a lack of the settling of the meta combined with players lack of ability with elite specs they have not yet learned to play. I mean, this is just my personal opinion, but look as scrapper, for example, being a CC based elite spec, had all the entire skill type of professional skills neutered the stun/daze on gryo destruction and made
infinintly of lesser value.

Other Specs were just way stronger, until the
evened things out a little.

Unfortunately in most cases outside of PvP the other specs are still a great deal stronger.Scrapper is a sad story, and I wish they could undo it. But at this point I have not much hopes left.I really wish for it, to be a good WvW or support spec, but this post is about PVE -dps- build balance.

At that point people accepted power-Holosmith as a valid contribution to raid meta teams, and it remained solid since then (got even some
).

There is more to this game than raids. Personally, I think balancing around raids is a poorly thought out perspective. They should start by greatly deviating skills between WvW, PvP, and PvE.This is the point where I think you forgot to read the title of this thread. But I wholeheartedly agree that they could speed up the skill split a little more.That way wvw players won’t have to read through pve-related threads.

Condi:
Its condition counterpart suffered from not being able to beat the core condition engineer and most people forgot about it (Photon Forge added almost nothing to condition engineers).

I wouldn't say it 'suffered', I would simply say it is a power focused elite spec. Just like some others are condition focused.Suffered might have been the wrong word. Condition Engineer and Condition Holosmith got overshadowed by the Power-Holosmith to the point where there is no encounter where you would prefer the condition variant.

Because of a PvP-centered nerf of Thermal Release Valve, the damage potential of condi Holosmith got reduced by so much that even the small “buffs” to photon forge (namely projectile finishers) could not bring it up to the level of a core condition engineer.

I fell you. I have had my beloved WvW skills nerfed endlesly because of crying from PvEr's. it is why I suggested above "They should start by greatly deviating skills between WvW, PvP, and PvE. '

100% agree with that.

numbers:
As it now stands, my current personal golem benchmark for condition Holosmith is is about 1k lower than
.

I am less concerned with practical use that practice "golem benchmark". Personally I find that using the equivalent of an inanimant object to control balance making descissions has entire ruined the game.

It only “ruined” it because they had no skill split between game modes. They did like 40%% of their balance based on the inanimate object and 60% on actual players (pvp), which resulted in a big mess.If you would raid or run fractals a lot, you would have realized, that at this point the bigger part of the available encounters can be effective golem rotations.

Suggested “Fix” or “balance-changes”
:
  • Make
    take effect above 50% heat – inside AND outside of PF, that way all three GM traits profit about the same amount and offer a more balanced playstyle choice (this would not affect
    in any way).

Personally, I think tying value to a punishing mechanic is part of the problem.

Yes, I guess they tried to tie it to skillful play, but it did not quite work out.I think, allowing for the buff to persist outside of PF would help in achieving this.

  • Fix
    to apply an additional 2 stacks of the effect upon leaving PF – that way the dmg buff it provides remains the same, regardless which grandmaster trait you choose (currently it only applies the buff on entering PF and overheating).

Personally, I think that would be better served if it directly benefited the utility skills themselves and not what I consider a bad mechanic.

I see you dislike the very basis of the Holosmith-mechanic. However, they created this spec and I think completely ignoring it from now on, will only lead to another “scrapper”.

These changes won’t change the fact, that condi lies behind power, even in sustained fights.

Well yeah, it is a power focused spec. This statement could be applied to any profession elite spec with power focused skills.

I am not sure about that “power focus”, it is pretty much a hybrid that favors power. There is a lot of burning that is not to be underestimated.You realize that even the “core condition engineer” uses a lot of grenade auto attacks, which are not condi-focused either.Nades are just a good filler – and it happens, that those 6s of Photon Forge work almost perfect for a filler as well.

It would make the Grandmaster Traits more into a playstyle choice rather than a “much more DPS-choice”.

In my opinion, part of the games downfall in my eyes is the fact that DPS is the only playstyle, at least in PvE.

Okay. I think you forgot about the ones that provide buffs.

At the same time this would put condi holo on the same level as core condition engineer making this a playstyle-choice as well.

Why do condition and power-focused elite specs need to be on the same level?

As I already stated, with very minimal tweaking, this supposedly “power focused spec” can be working perfectly fine for both setups.The other suggestions were more about bringing the condi engi up to the same level, as power.

Tl;dr
By changing the above-mentioned traits, condi holosmith and condi engineer would be about equal in dps, and the available grandmaster traits would be more balanced than right now.

So I am curious, what about 'scrapper'? You appear to promote the notion here that elite specs should be equivalent, why just the one?

That is because that ship has sailed two years ago.For PvE, that ship was the wreck they were not able to recover, because it was not supposed to travel the sea.Tbh I have lost my hopes on this. If scrapper were a valid support choice for engi I’d be more than happy :)

Additional balancing proposal for general condition engi:
  • After these changes, I would change “
    ” into a trait that increases baseline bombkit-condition-duration by 20% (instead of reducing the bomb CD by 20%) + keep its part about the shorter fuse time.

Don't shorter fuse times innately increase bombs condition damage? Why change both?

It does not really work to incorporate the shorter CD into rotations. So you end up taking a power trait in its place. This change could fix that issue

These are three small trait changes, that would bring in a lot more variety.

Let me know what you think.

Edit:
Added
to an old golem rotation vid from October 2017.And while it is outdated, it still shows how Photon Forge could be incorporated into a working condi-rotation: That's assuming vigor is provided or you are in
(
).

That is not what I call diversity. That is simply making two specific builds have a level of DPS equality.

Diversity comes not from one Build. But introducing an additional playstyle that has about the same potential, as existing ones, is a step towards more diversity.This is also my answer to your statement below: You see that 1k difference between power holo and condi engi is enough to not play the condi version in a raid setting.That’s why I proposed changes to up condi from 32k to 34k , with condi engi being on 34k that is 1k more than power holo.Which the increased difficulty is at absolutely worth in my opinion.

I know most of my points are simply contrarian to yours, but that is simply because I feel your perspective of approaching this direct DPS equality across the board is a flawed notion.

And the DPS equality across the board, that I am talking about, is only across engineer-dps-builds. It would be wrong to expect that for different classes, as they offer completely different things.

Anet said that that they want condition builds to have a longer ramp up, with more damage in the end.Currently condition engineer has a longer ramp up with less damage in the end.

Thank you for your insight, I have not thought about Scrapper in a long time.I really wish they could do something for it, but I think other people than me, are more qualified to talk about that spec.(I have not played pvp or wvw in a long time. And this thread was about PvE.)

I hope this clears up some of my reasoning. And forgive my English, its not my first language.

edit: and I really hope they do some skill/trait splits for wvw, pvp and pve in the future.

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Holosmith currently sees a lot of use in PvP, WvW and PvE over scrapper. Lets see some some changes to that spec line first, or changes that help boost it in other lines.For example, move juggernaut to alchemy (maybe replacing the grantmaster trait that spawns a single tonic when you use a healing skill), that way we could see some firearms-alchemy-scrapper bunker-condi builds for WvW/PvP.

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@"coglin.1496" said:

These are three small trait changes, that would bring in a lot more variety.

Let me know what you think.

Edit:
Added
to an old golem rotation vid from October 2017.And while it is outdated, it still shows how Photon Forge could be incorporated into a working condi-rotation: That's assuming vigor is provided or you are in
(
).

That is not what I call diversity. That is simply making two specific builds have a level of DPS equality.

so in general i cant be bothered to read these lengthy tear-down posts but this caught my eye. consider that the only thing a dps build needs in pve (or rather perhaps just fractals and raids) is dps, cuz everything else is taken care of by the 1-2 support players. in that instance, equalizing the dps of 2 different flavors of engi does indeed present build diversity cuz equality = diversity. and honestly most fractal encounters are bland enough - and general pve certainly is bland - that equalizing dps is enough for a player to just make do with either build without switching anything, solidifying diversity cuz suddenly 2 builds are perfectly acceptable under the only qualification that matters.

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@Lunateric.3708 said:

Firearms isn't condition focused unless you're thinking crit chance on bleed and in X range, Ferocity with fury and 2% power damage buff with each condi has any semblance of condi focused (being sarcastic here).

How does the requirement of crit or the inclusion Fury make it not condition focussed? In saying so, you're neglecting the fact that 7 out of 9 classes have critical hits as a mechanic or Fury associated with the majority of their condition traits (and traitlines). You might prefer more 'pure' condition traits but that doesn't change this fact.

Personally, I therefore still think of Firearms as the main condition traitline for Engineers. And I'm not saying it because it actually historically was that way.

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I think the main thing to about the engineer is bring back the core-spec and the scrapper at a viable level. Making the holosmith capable of playing conditions would just completely remove the core-spec from the scene. We need diversity, I agree, and condi holosmith would be a cool thing if it didn't completely delete the other specs of engineer from the meta.

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@Xaylin.1860 said:

@"Lunateric.3708" said:

Firearms
isn't
condition focused unless you're thinking crit chance on bleed and in X range, Ferocity with fury and 2% power damage buff with each condi has any semblance of condi focused (being sarcastic here).

How does the requirement of crit or the inclusion Fury make it not condition focussed? In saying so, you're neglecting the fact that 7 out of 9 classes have critical hits as a mechanic or Fury associated with the majority of their condition traits (and traitlines). You might prefer more 'pure' condition traits but that doesn't change this fact.

Personally, I therefore still think of Firearms as the main condition traitline for Engineers. And I'm not saying it because it actually historically was that way.

The biggest power damage contribution trait to engi on any traitline is in firearms: modified ammunition. It's also 525 points worth of precision (25*21 if 1% crit is 21 prec, don't remember) and 150 feoricity. Yeah it does have condi traits engi uses too but that doesn't suddenly make it "condi focused", saying that is basically laughable specially after last couple balance patches, not talking about the history of the traitline because it is completely irrelevant to a current discussion about it since we have current traits, not a selection of options for each trait based on a changelog.

So yeah though to be honest that remark is irrelevant to this particular discussion too. Nobody can really say power engi (Holo really) is in a bad place for PvE.

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So you think it's justifiable to say that precision/Fury implies power although condition builds benefit just as much? You can't get more subjective than that.

Your argument about Modified Ammunition - while it is true, that it is strong in large scale fights - is mood. It's like saying Nature Magic is all about healing because Invigorating Bond although there is a strong boon theme going on. It's also very black and white to say No Scope makes it none condition - regardless wether you consider Fury valuable for condition or not - while there is stuff like Pinpoint Distribution. In case your thinking of a certain meta build: It might be labelled power because of the equipment. But the trait set up is clearly hybrid (Grenade, Shrapnel, yadda yadda). And if it wasn't for Pinpoint Distribution, it would probably be a totally different story anyway.

You don't have to agree with me on this. That's what opinions are for. I just find it very narrow minded to not consider Firearms when talking about condition Engi/Holo.

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@"RedSPINE.7845" said:I think the main thing to about the engineer is bring back the core-spec and the scrapper at a viable level. Making the holosmith capable of playing conditions would just completely remove the core-spec from the scene. We need diversity, I agree, and condi holosmith would be a cool thing if it didn't completely delete the other specs of engineer from the meta.

Can we really consider Condi Core Engie still in the "meta"? Frankly I'm most inclined to put it in the "unviable" category, due the extra difficulty with diminishing reward. (I can be totally wrong, I don't use the current build for condi core, I'm just speaking of what I have heard and seen in some videos)

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@Ardid.7203 said:

@"RedSPINE.7845" said:I think the main thing to about the engineer is bring back the core-spec and the scrapper at a viable level. Making the holosmith capable of playing conditions would just completely remove the core-spec from the scene. We need diversity, I agree, and condi holosmith would be a cool thing if it didn't completely delete the other specs of engineer from the meta.

Can we really consider Condi Core Engie still in the "meta"? Frankly I'm most inclined to put it in the "unviable" category, due the extra difficulty with diminishing reward. (I can be totally wrong, I don't use the current build for condi core, I'm just speaking of what I have heard and seen in some videos)

It is viable and can be top tier damage if played well. I've played it for around 2+ years now and I do outdamage most other players in Fractals.

But my god is it tiring to play continuously. I've been playing holo lately and I can finally... chill.

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@Xaylin.1860 said:So you think it's justifiable to say that precision/Fury implies power although condition builds benefit just as much? You can't get more subjective than that.

Buddy, precision and ferocity don't interact with power and condi builds on the same level. Power builds get significantly more juice from precision and Ferocity and fury damage wise. Just get benches relatively close on power and condi builds with and without fury or with and without Assassin's presence and see who gets the most out of those particular boosts though the answer is pretty obvious.

You're right it's not a white and black thing though and that's why saying that particular traitline is focused on condis (let's call it black) was so easily debatable.

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