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Ascended Gear was a Mistake


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My friends feel that ascended gear was a mistake in game design. It serves as an artificial barrier for entry into content, over something as trivial as a 5-10% stat gain. In pve it serves as psychological barrier for players to constantly question and exclude others from fractals and raids. It also results in endless inquiries into whether or not you have ascended gear, and to show said ascended gear to everyone. I don't know why they didn't just stick with the GW1 philosophy of how gear was done, in that max level gear was easy to obtain, and thus end game content is easily accessible.

In wvw it gives a noticeable advantage in what should be a somewhat fair pvp setting. 5-10% more damage on a full zerker or condi build especially on multiple targets is a lot of damage over time, enough to be noticeable, and enough to get you excluded from raiding guilds/commander squads and parties if you don't have it. wouldn't it be nice if it was all exotics, which are easy to get and nobody would really have to think about it or question whether or not your playing with max stats?

Ascended also isn't usable in spvp, but creates endless confusion in that most new players to spvp constantly ask if their ascended gear is needed to participate in spvp or if ascended alters their stats there in some way.

All i know is most games are gravitating towards leveling the playing field and gw2 straddles that line with ascended gear as a way of catering to people who want gear grind. Imagine playing PUBG, but some guy has 10% more health, damage and defense, simply because, he played more hours and grinded for those stats. Makes for silly game play that I'm not sure many would tolerate.

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I hear you BUT

Ascended gear is kinda the new Exotic one.There are so many ways to obtain it, even for new players - without crafting, via sPvP or Pug Raids in WvW (rewards), where you learn mechanics, run with senior players and gain access to more precious gear. Exotic will be still good for the majority of PVE content; excluding Raids/Fractals. Other games take way more dedication to get end game gear (exclude Legend here as this is a special case of equipment, yet same stats as Ascended).

In a healthy game environment, you need a degree of challenges, dedication and time. You can already play the game for free!

If you want action and 0 gear problems, get your head around sPvP.

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I think your complaint only applies to armor. Weapons are very easy to get; the HOT spec weapons can be done in a week of playing and collecting the right materials, and Caladborg is a basically free option for simply doing the story.

Ascended trinkets are basically free, as you can do any of the LWS3 OR Path of Fire content (OR guild missions OR fractals OR WvW) and get them extremely quickly in whatever stat set you want

Armor is the only outlier and that's only somewhat true; crafting it is always an option, but you can get it via Fractals, WvW, Raids, or random drop.

And since the bulk of stats are on trinkets and weapons anyway, it's not that big of a deal for armor to be the slowest progression (not that it's that slow, since once you get one set, sets after that become much easier to acquire). You're effectively losing a very small amount of stats (and stat infusions, I guess, but the majority doesnt use those anyway)

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Yes, Ascended gear was a departure from how gear was handled in the original GW game. So was putting a large percentage of character stats on gear. So was having 13-16 pieces of gear to fully gear a character for land combat (plus more for underwater, if anyone cares anymore).

I was a big fan of the original game. I'm a lot less enamored of this one, but it is at least better than the other MMO's out there for my tastes. How they handled gear is a big part of the distaste.

The "mistake" was adopting the stats-on-gear approach from other games rather than the stats-on-character, with minimal additions from gear that was easily obtained in the original. Add to that the game needed massive material sinks to add value to all those crafting mats that came from salvaging deluges of blues and greens plus node harvesting with no competition. At that point, Ascended -- or something like it -- was inevitable.

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That ship has sailed, made 4 trips round the world, been retrofitted for the new engine, and circumnavigated again. Whether it was a mistake at the time or not, they aren't going to change things now.

In particular, skill matters much more than a 5% buff on stats. Skilled players can manage raids in masterwork gear, for example.

I think the argument the OP is almost making would be better restated as: "if the stat difference isn't that important, then why offer it at all?" There are a couple of reasons:

  • Too many players expect there to be a difference. Even a month ago, people were still insisting, in these very forums, that legendary gear ought to have better stats, because it was harder to obtain.
  • The existence of ascended has created a demand for a whole set of materials, that wouldn't exist without ascended gear.
  • Because it's actually not as complicated a system or onerous to obtain as the OP suggests.

@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:It serves as an artificial barrier for entry into content, over something as trivial as a 5-10% stat gain.
No, it's not an actual barrier for anything except fractals. And then only because it makes it possible to equip infusions, which are required.

In pve it serves as psychological barrier for players to constantly question and exclude others from fractals and raids.
It also results in endless inquiries into whether or not you have ascended gear, and to show said ascended gear to everyone.
Constantly? Endless? Hardly. Some people have no interest in challenging-instanced content, so it's no barrier for them. So people are gung ho about it, so it's also not a barrier for them. Some people are interested and wonder what might be required, so for a short period of time, they might feel it's a daunting goal, but after that, they don't have to worry about it. So no, it's not a "constant" worry.

I don't know why they didn't just stick with the GW1 philosophy of how gear was done, in that max level gear was easy to obtain, and thus end game content is easily accessible.The same reason why the game has 80 levels instead of 20.

In wvw it gives a noticeable advantage in what should be a somewhat fair pvp setting. 5-10% more damage on a full zerker or condi build especially on multiple targets is a lot of damage over time, enough to be noticeable, and enough to get you excluded from raiding guilds/commander squads and parties if you don't have it.
I run in WvW mostly with exotic gear. I've yet to lose a fight because of it (I either win, because I'm better, or more likely, the foe wins, because they are better); fights don't last long enough for it to matter much.

As for raiding guilds, well, that's high end content. For team's that do that, they also require practice using specific builds. The gear itself is a lesser barrier.

Ascended also isn't usable in spvp, but creates endless confusion in that most new players to spvp constantly ask if their ascended gear is needed to participate in spvp or if ascended alters their stats there in some way.Again, the confusion isn't endless. It's max once per person.

All i know is most games are gravitating towards leveling the playing field and gw2 straddles that line with ascended gear as a way of catering to people who want gear grind. Imagine playing PUBG, but some guy has 10% more health, damage and defense, simply because, he played more hours and grinded for those stats. Makes for silly game play that I'm not sure many would tolerate.In this very game, in which you complain about ascended, people who played on a top tier wvw server would have bonus health and defense from the Power of the Mists. The better servers would have those buffs pretty high soon after reset, while the bottom guilds might need half the week. That was true even before there was ascended gear in the game.

People who have played longer also had access to tons of boosters, which also boosted stats.

wouldn't it be nice if it was all exotics, which are easy to get and nobody would really have to think about it or question whether or not your playing with max stats?I don't think it would have the impact you're imagining it would have.

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Ascended actually isn’t that hard to get once you read on it. A few days ago I found out finishing hot. There is a journey called knight of thorns. And you can get this weapon for free. Look up the places and you can get it within hours.

Also fractals. As much as people like to disqualify it. Fractals has a lot of things it gives you. So many trinket drops it’s crazy. Also doing dailies give you pristine relics. Get 10. And you can get the right rings for you within a few days. Get 100 and you can get an amulet. If you have living world season 3 maps. Bitterfrost is the fastest map to get rings and a backpack.

Also for fractals you can get armor and weapons there.

Play ranked pvp and you can masterwork coins. Get 3 of them and you can get an armor piece or weapon. So as much as people think it’s really not hard. Just time consuming.

Then you have crafting which is longer however you can just grind for gold then buy the mats you need and then craft the weapons. But waiting few days to craft lumps and spoils is annoying.

Free players can also get ascended which idk why people complain. Everyone can get them.

Best way to get rings.Fractals by far.

Best way to get backpackBitterfrost.

Best way for amulet can very.If you do ranked pvp. Get 150 ascended shards and you get an amulet.Or hit up lake Doric on multiple characters. And get it within few days.

Armor Without crafting, hit up ranked pvp and get the grandmaster marks. And hit up the fractals and buy them there.

If you have laurels hit up wvw and buy things there.

There’s soooo many ways in this game to get them. Within a month and a half I fully have my thief in ascended zojjas.

And already starting armor after I finished weapons for vipers.

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First off, its dead simple to get ascended trinkets. That "barrier" idea can pretty much be scrapped entirely.

That leaves the 5% or so armor/weapon advantage and I can tell you for sure it doesnt matter for crap in WvW. Most will have the weapons too so often its just the "expensive" armor. A skilled player in exotic armor easily beats a random player in full ascended.

The power creep in WvW comes from other things. No one cares if you are in ascended or exotic.

Whether this is an issue or not in PvE is another matter. As GW2 grow old elitist start coming out the woodworks and all they want is to have it easy even if they claim they are "hardcore". Remember when we raided Arah in yellows because it was the first time we ever started a dungeon? Yeah. That was the shit.

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@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:My friends feel that ascended gear was a mistake in game design. It serves as an artificial barrier for entry into content, over something as trivial as a 5-10% stat gain. In pve it serves as psychological barrier for players to constantly question and exclude others from fractals and raids. It also results in endless inquiries into whether or not you have ascended gear, and to show said ascended gear to everyone. I don't know why they didn't just stick with the GW1 philosophy of how gear was done, in that max level gear was easy to obtain, and thus end game content is easily accessible.

In wvw it gives a noticeable advantage in what should be a somewhat fair pvp setting. 5-10% more damage on a full zerker or condi build especially on multiple targets is a lot of damage over time, enough to be noticeable, and enough to get you excluded from raiding guilds/commander squads and parties if you don't have it. wouldn't it be nice if it was all exotics, which are easy to get and nobody would really have to think about it or question whether or not your playing with max stats?

Ascended also isn't usable in spvp, but creates endless confusion in that most new players to spvp constantly ask if their ascended gear is needed to participate in spvp or if ascended alters their stats there in some way.

All i know is most games are gravitating towards leveling the playing field and gw2 straddles that line with ascended gear as a way of catering to people who want gear grind. Imagine playing PUBG, but some guy has 10% more health, damage and defense, simply because, he played more hours and grinded for those stats. Makes for silly game play that I'm not sure many would tolerate.

Ascended gear is so easy to get. How are you serious? Just grind the silverwastes. People have no problem with new masteries, new elite specs, and new stat-combos (all of which are power-creeps AND treadmills which require big grinds). But they think the sky is falling over any suggestion of gear upgrades. I mean, you're STILL complaining about ascended gear 5 years after the fact. But, apparently, you have no problem with the HoT mastery system (much of which is completely obsolete, just like expansion specific armor would now be).

It's a totally inconsistent position which makes the game UTTERLY boring and lacking in rewards. Instead of having continual rewards for actual gameplay (i.e. achieve in-game objective, get sweet gear), the only time there's ever anything to work for is when a new expansion comes out. Then they take all the power creep that would normally come from your gear and trick you into grinding it out just the same (under different names)

And in between expansions? Go to the gem store and spend money. Because the players absolutely forbid there to be any meaningful rewards at the end of difficult content. Hit a new milestone in-game? Congrats! Here's another basket full of trash you have no use for.

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Yes, introducing Ascended was a big mistake. Unfortunately, as several people already mentioned, it's a done deal. They won't remove it from the game now, after it's been in for so many years already.

So, all you can do is to complain against the specifics of obtaining it. For example, you could try to complain that the PoF-stat trinkets are so much harder to obtain than core/HoT ones. You could try to complain about PoF specialization weapon collections requiring the extremely rare named exotic drops (instead of crafted ones). You could try to complain about the cost of crafting ascended armor (and/or about leather requirements for armor crafting). And so on, and so on.

No point however to complain now against existence of ascended. Those are not going to be removed. No matter how bad of an idea they were in the first place.

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The complaint comes a bit late, and I think it would not be a problem at all, if ascended would have been in the game since release. But since it was introduced a year after ppl question if it was a good idea or not.Ascended gear is easily accessable in any mode that "requires" it. Sure you can't go t4 fractals w/o it, but you can do t1 fractals to gain currency to buy ascended gear for higher tiers. Like that you learn how the fractals work and get used to it, instead of popping that lvl 80 boost and jumping right into 100cm. Same goes for raids. since there's no agony you don't need the infusion slot and for some of the easier, less demanding encounters, you don't need to be full ascended, giving you the chance to gear up as you move along. It won't happen in the blink of an eye but it will happen eventually. You can get ascended gear from PvP(a mode that doesn't need any sort of gear) or WvW just by participating in the mode. You don't even need to be good or win a lot or whatever. Ascended ascessories/backpieces/weapons are available in open world PvE and/or various different collections that don't require you to go into t4 fractals or raids, giving you the opportunity to gear up. And there's even, you know, crafting. Yes it's tedious and expensive, but since it's the final tier of gear in this game and the items are somewhat stat changeable, you craft an item once and are done with it for some time.I admit, when ascended was introduced, it was hard to get and even more expensive than it is today. You couldn't get all the stat combinations everywhere and more than half the game was left out of any form of aquisition. But a lot has improved since then. Ascended is more available than ever and while you can say that it wasn't necessary to implement a tier above exotic, I think it added a lot as a longer term goal, something between exotic, which is so easy to obtain that it doesn't serve as long term goal, and legendary, which is too grindy, too expensive and too time consuming for many players to go for.And before I forget to remind you, before there was ascended, ppl were asked to ping their exotics so everyone was sure that everyone was playing dat maxlvlgear. It's not like ascended introduced this kind of behavior to the game (or gamers in general) or that removing this tier of gear would also remove the ppl asking for BiS gear ;)

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The thread is somewhat pointless, because it is years ago ascended was introduced and cannot be unmade now. If you ask me, ascended gear is ok as final gear level. The mistake was not introducing it in the first place, the only mistake was not to introduce it at game release. A mistake was as well the many pointless junk armor levels (white, blue, green), because beginners thought these levels were valid, tried playing with it and perished - and left the game as consequence.

But ascended itself is ok. If you only play 2 hours a week, exotic is your final gear level, and that's perfectly ok for this play time. If you play more, you have many ways to acquire ascended gear, and if you look faithfully in guides and wiki you will find ways that are expensive, but not prohibitively expensive. You just have to not exchange your gold for gems to get the latest mount skin, you have to invest it into crafting instead.

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@"Kheldorn.5123" said:The only gear gate this game has is fractals. Mechanically. Other gates are artificial barriers created by players. So the problem here are players not gear. You can't fix players.

It should only be related to PvE modes.A progression for compulsive gear farmers It's understandable to me, but WvW should be something apart ( with standard equip and stuff = from lvl 2 to lvl 80 ).

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Strange as it might sound they did it because players kept on (and on, and on) asking for it. If you look at archives of the old forum from September and October 2012 the number one topic of discussion was what is there to work towards once you're level 80 and why is exotic equipment so easy to get when it leaves players who like improving their stats with nothing to do? Of course the answer to that was generally that Anet had advertised the game as lacking a gear treadmill so no one should be surprised, but that did absolutely nothing to quiet the complaints.

Then in November they released Fractals and the first bits of ascended equipment (at the time it was only rings and they were only available as drops in Fractals). I'm still kind of surprised by this but it worked - the people who wanted harder content to grind and better stats as a reward/gating system to grinding the even harder version of the same thing got what they wanted and were (mostly) happy and the rest of us could ignore it because it was a largely self-contained system and were also (mostly) happy.

I still don't have a full set of ascended equipment on my main character. I've got a coat and trousers I crafted because I like the skins, 2/3 weapons (1 legendary and 1 I got from a collection) and a backpack I got because I wanted to do the collection for it and trinkets I got from the laurel vendor. The rest is exotics. But I can still do everything I want to do in the game (I've even spoken to a couple of raid training teams who would take me, on the understanding that if I stick with it I'll work towards full ascended). I can also do almost everything on my alts who are in 100% exotics.

Yes ascended does have higher stats but it's not enough to make a big difference, because as other people have said player skill makes a bigger difference. I've really noticed this lately because I've been playing a lot on very low level characters and I find myself having to hold back to make sure newer players get to tag enemies in events or get enough time to participate properly. We're about the same level and both have no traits, no utility skills and 3-4 pieces of white equipment and equally poor builds, but because I know what to do and how to do it I can run circles around them (literally if they haven't figured out strafing, dodging and using the mouse instead of the keyboard to turn).

Obviously it's less noticeable at higher levels where there's less of an obvious gap in player skill, but even so I highly doubt a poor player in full ascended could beat a skilled player in full exotics in WvW. If they're both equally good ascended might make the difference, but so could latency or that one time someone's finger slips and they push the wrong button. I think it'd be very rare that how many pieces of ascended gear you have is the deciding factor in a fight.

Personally I would prefer that they didn't introduce ascended gear, or made it easier for everyone to get so it's basically just like exotics. But I also accept that this game isn't just for me and a lot of people wanted this. And given the choice I'd rather Anet adapted to what large numbers of players want, if they can do it in a way that fits their vision of the game, than stick rigidly to what they'd originally planned regardless of whether it's working or not. This change didn't benefit me, but I'm sure other changes resulting from the same attitude have - like adding mounts.

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@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:Ascended also isn't usable in spvp, but creates endless confusion in that most new players to spvp constantly ask if their ascended gear is needed to participate in spvp or if ascended alters their stats there in some way.

I don't think that's a result of ascended gear so much as the difference between GW2 and other games not being obvious enough. I see similar questions a lot, except a lot of the time what they're actually asking is "Can I do PvP in dungeon gear, or do I need raid gear first?" - which implies they're used to other games with a clear linear path for progression - you use crafted or dropped gear to run dungeons to get better gear, which you use to do the first raid, which you use to do the next raid, and so on until you've got the best there is (or as near as most people ever get) and then you're good enough to be allowed into PvP.

Unless you've read up on the game in advance or gone to the Heart of the Mists and checked out how to put together a PvP build there's nothing to tell you that you don't need to do that here. And of course a lot of new players don't think to try entering PvP if they assume they aren't ready until they've played a lot of PvE.

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@Danikat.8537 said:

@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:Ascended also isn't usable in spvp, but creates endless confusion in that most new players to spvp constantly ask if their ascended gear is needed to participate in spvp or if ascended alters their stats there in some way.

I don't think that's a result of ascended gear so much as the difference between GW2 and other games not being obvious enough. I see similar questions a lot, except a lot of the time what they're actually asking is "Can I do PvP in dungeon gear, or do I need raid gear first?" - which implies they're used to other games with a clear linear path for progression - you use crafted or dropped gear to run dungeons to get better gear, which you use to do the first raid, which you use to do the next raid, and so on until you've got the best there is (or as near as most people ever get) and then you're good enough to be allowed into PvP.

Unless you've read up on the game in advance or gone to the Heart of the Mists and checked out how to put together a PvP build there's nothing to tell you that you don't need to do that here. And of course a lot of new players don't think to try entering PvP if they assume they aren't ready until they've played a lot of PvE.

The point is that it's not a justification.

There's only a 10% stats difference...Why should there be a 10% stats difference instead of standard stats for everybody?

There's no excuse.Competitive modes won't EVER be balanced.But even so, there are no justification to bring equipment into competitive modes-

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Of the 56 pieces of Ascended armor I have on my account, I think I only crafted 8-10 of them. I have 8 boxes of armor and 4 weapons in my bank, trying to decide what stats to give my Soulbeast. This is my final (9th) character I want to outfit in full Ascended.Ascended gear is very easy to come by now, all but 2-3 of the boxes I have came from doing Fractal dailies.

You can now work towards PvP/WvW Ascended armor which is also upgradable to Legendary functionality. Not too shabby for a long term goal.

But unless you do Fractals or you min/max for raids/WvW etc, you do not need Ascended gear at all.

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Gosh some people will always complain. There are so many ways to obtain ascended gear from just playing that i am salvaging them quite frequently (not talking about rings). You have pvp dropping ascended boxes, i expect 1 ascended box per week from fractals, so many achievement giving away ascended gear, tons of collections for ascended weapons but people still complain.If all else fails you can buy 2000 gems for $25, trade gems for gold and make a full set for a character. Combine this with a fact that once you make ascended gear its never going to get obsolete. The ascended sets that i made for my ele/ranger/warrior (one for every armor class) 3 years ago is still meta.

Now compare this with wow, where with every new content patch you get a new armor/weapon tier and the old armor/weapon which you spend hundreds of hours acquiring from raids gets absolute. (This happens almost every 6-9 months when a new Raid is released).

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@Pridedemon.3041 said:Gosh some people will always complain. There are so many ways to obtain ascended gear from just playing that i am salvaging them quite frequently (not talking about rings). You have pvp dropping ascended boxes, i expect 1 ascended box per week from fractals, so many achievement giving away ascended gear, tons of collections for ascended weapons but people still complain.If all else fails you can buy 2000 gems for $25, trade gems for gold and make a full set for a character. Combine this with a fact that once you make ascended gear its never going to get obsolete. The ascended sets that i made for my ele/ranger/warrior (one for every armor class) 3 years ago is still meta.

Now compare this with wow, where with every new content patch you get a new armor/weapon tier and the old armor/weapon which you spend hundreds of hours acquiring from raids gets absolute. (This happens almost every 6-9 months when a new Raid is released).

The meta has changed in that time, so you are pretty much lying or are averting to important information. Druid came about (zerk or healing gear), Ele become condition damage for a period. Warrior changed completely from power after HoT.

After having made a new account. I can see perfectly why people are unhappy with the ascended armour system. One week for one box is pretty... brutal? I've farmed out fractals, dungeons and open world strenuously for a week on this new account, and my gold number has only just gone over 100, with only few materials saved for the potential of crafting an ascended backpiece etc. The amount of relics you obtain with lower-tier fractal dailies is fairly pitiful. I have seen the fractal ascended accessories etc that were added, but they seem a year off...

OR as you said, you could pay $25 to unlock one character's worth of armour, which is more than most people pay nowadays for a Heart of Thorns key (and in that, far over 50% of the game). You either pay real money, or grind.

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@Shirlias.8104 said:

@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:Ascended also isn't usable in spvp, but creates endless confusion in that most new players to spvp constantly ask if their ascended gear is needed to participate in spvp or if ascended alters their stats there in some way.

I don't think that's a result of ascended gear so much as the difference between GW2 and other games not being obvious enough. I see similar questions a lot, except a lot of the time what they're actually asking is "Can I do PvP in dungeon gear, or do I need raid gear first?" - which implies they're used to other games with a clear linear path for progression - you use crafted or dropped gear to run dungeons to get better gear, which you use to do the first raid, which you use to do the next raid, and so on until you've got the best there is (or as near as most people ever get) and then you're good enough to be allowed into PvP.

Unless you've read up on the game in advance or gone to the Heart of the Mists and checked out how to put together a PvP build there's nothing to tell you that you don't need to do that here. And of course a lot of new players don't think to try entering PvP if they assume they aren't ready until they've played a lot of PvE.

The point is that it's not a justification.

There's only a 10% stats difference...Why should there be a 10% stats difference instead of standard stats for everybody?

There's no excuse.Competitive modes won't EVER be balanced.But even so, there are no justification to bring equipment into competitive modes-

When I first started PvP I was trying to figure out how to set up my gear with exotics, not ascended. Someone had to tell me that my gear in PvE did nothing in PvP. The issue with PvP is not ascended, it is that people think that their PvE gear matters at all in PvP, regardless of if it is simple greens or ascended.

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@Neutra.6857 said:

@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:Ascended also isn't usable in spvp, but creates endless confusion in that most new players to spvp constantly ask if their ascended gear is needed to participate in spvp or if ascended alters their stats there in some way.

I don't think that's a result of ascended gear so much as the difference between GW2 and other games not being obvious enough. I see similar questions a lot, except a lot of the time what they're actually asking is "Can I do PvP in dungeon gear, or do I need raid gear first?" - which implies they're used to other games with a clear linear path for progression - you use crafted or dropped gear to run dungeons to get better gear, which you use to do the first raid, which you use to do the next raid, and so on until you've got the best there is (or as near as most people ever get) and then you're good enough to be allowed into PvP.

Unless you've read up on the game in advance or gone to the Heart of the Mists and checked out how to put together a PvP build there's nothing to tell you that you don't need to do that here. And of course a lot of new players don't think to try entering PvP if they assume they aren't ready until they've played a lot of PvE.

The point is that it's not a justification.

There's only a 10% stats difference...Why should there be a 10% stats difference instead of standard stats for everybody?

There's no excuse.Competitive modes won't EVER be balanced.But even so, there are no justification to bring equipment into competitive modes-

When I first started PvP I was trying to figure out how to set up my gear with exotics, not ascended. Someone had to tell me that my gear in PvE did nothing in PvP. The issue with PvP is not ascended, it is that people think that their PvE gear matters at all in PvP, regardless of if it is simple greens or ascended.

Yeah I do agree with you ( I was refering to your first line but I misread it ).

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