Ascended Gear was a Mistake — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Ascended Gear was a Mistake

Jumpin Lumpix.6108Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited January 29, 2018 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

My friends feel that ascended gear was a mistake in game design. It serves as an artificial barrier for entry into content, over something as trivial as a 5-10% stat gain. In pve it serves as psychological barrier for players to constantly question and exclude others from fractals and raids. It also results in endless inquiries into whether or not you have ascended gear, and to show said ascended gear to everyone. I don't know why they didn't just stick with the GW1 philosophy of how gear was done, in that max level gear was easy to obtain, and thus end game content is easily accessible.

In wvw it gives a noticeable advantage in what should be a somewhat fair pvp setting. 5-10% more damage on a full zerker or condi build especially on multiple targets is a lot of damage over time, enough to be noticeable, and enough to get you excluded from raiding guilds/commander squads and parties if you don't have it. wouldn't it be nice if it was all exotics, which are easy to get and nobody would really have to think about it or question whether or not your playing with max stats?

Ascended also isn't usable in spvp, but creates endless confusion in that most new players to spvp constantly ask if their ascended gear is needed to participate in spvp or if ascended alters their stats there in some way.

All i know is most games are gravitating towards leveling the playing field and gw2 straddles that line with ascended gear as a way of catering to people who want gear grind. Imagine playing PUBG, but some guy has 10% more health, damage and defense, simply because, he played more hours and grinded for those stats. Makes for silly game play that I'm not sure many would tolerate.

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Comments

  • Evolute.6239Evolute.6239 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2018

    I think your complaint only applies to armor. Weapons are very easy to get; the HOT spec weapons can be done in a week of playing and collecting the right materials, and Caladborg is a basically free option for simply doing the story.

    Ascended trinkets are basically free, as you can do any of the LWS3 OR Path of Fire content (OR guild missions OR fractals OR WvW) and get them extremely quickly in whatever stat set you want

    Armor is the only outlier and that's only somewhat true; crafting it is always an option, but you can get it via Fractals, WvW, Raids, or random drop.

    And since the bulk of stats are on trinkets and weapons anyway, it's not that big of a deal for armor to be the slowest progression (not that it's that slow, since once you get one set, sets after that become much easier to acquire). You're effectively losing a very small amount of stats (and stat infusions, I guess, but the majority doesnt use those anyway)

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    IMHO there have been a lot of mistakes made with this game. But if they would not take out dungeons even after they announced that Dungeons were dead to them, I don't think they will be removing anything else that players may or may not like.

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  • blambidy.3216blambidy.3216 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ascended actually isn’t that hard to get once you read on it. A few days ago I found out finishing hot. There is a journey called knight of thorns. And you can get this weapon for free. Look up the places and you can get it within hours.

    Also fractals. As much as people like to disqualify it. Fractals has a lot of things it gives you. So many trinket drops it’s crazy. Also doing dailies give you pristine relics. Get 10. And you can get the right rings for you within a few days. Get 100 and you can get an amulet. If you have living world season 3 maps. Bitterfrost is the fastest map to get rings and a backpack.

    Also for fractals you can get armor and weapons there.

    Play ranked pvp and you can masterwork coins. Get 3 of them and you can get an armor piece or weapon. So as much as people think it’s really not hard. Just time consuming.

    Then you have crafting which is longer however you can just grind for gold then buy the mats you need and then craft the weapons. But waiting few days to craft lumps and spoils is annoying.

    Free players can also get ascended which idk why people complain. Everyone can get them.

    Best way to get rings.
    Fractals by far.

    Best way to get backpack
    Bitterfrost.

    Best way for amulet can very.
    If you do ranked pvp. Get 150 ascended shards and you get an amulet.
    Or hit up lake Doric on multiple characters. And get it within few days.

    Armor Without crafting, hit up ranked pvp and get the grandmaster marks. And hit up the fractals and buy them there.

    If you have laurels hit up wvw and buy things there.

    There’s soooo many ways in this game to get them. Within a month and a half I fully have my thief in ascended zojjas.

    And already starting armor after I finished weapons for vipers.

  • Fallesafe.5932Fallesafe.5932 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    My friends feel that ascended gear was a mistake in game design. It serves as an artificial barrier for entry into content, over something as trivial as a 5-10% stat gain. In pve it serves as psychological barrier for players to constantly question and exclude others from fractals and raids. It also results in endless inquiries into whether or not you have ascended gear, and to show said ascended gear to everyone. I don't know why they didn't just stick with the GW1 philosophy of how gear was done, in that max level gear was easy to obtain, and thus end game content is easily accessible.

    In wvw it gives a noticeable advantage in what should be a somewhat fair pvp setting. 5-10% more damage on a full zerker or condi build especially on multiple targets is a lot of damage over time, enough to be noticeable, and enough to get you excluded from raiding guilds/commander squads and parties if you don't have it. wouldn't it be nice if it was all exotics, which are easy to get and nobody would really have to think about it or question whether or not your playing with max stats?

    Ascended also isn't usable in spvp, but creates endless confusion in that most new players to spvp constantly ask if their ascended gear is needed to participate in spvp or if ascended alters their stats there in some way.

    All i know is most games are gravitating towards leveling the playing field and gw2 straddles that line with ascended gear as a way of catering to people who want gear grind. Imagine playing PUBG, but some guy has 10% more health, damage and defense, simply because, he played more hours and grinded for those stats. Makes for silly game play that I'm not sure many would tolerate.

    Ascended gear is so easy to get. How are you serious? Just grind the silverwastes. People have no problem with new masteries, new elite specs, and new stat-combos (all of which are power-creeps AND treadmills which require big grinds). But they think the sky is falling over any suggestion of gear upgrades. I mean, you're STILL complaining about ascended gear 5 years after the fact. But, apparently, you have no problem with the HoT mastery system (much of which is completely obsolete, just like expansion specific armor would now be).

    It's a totally inconsistent position which makes the game UTTERLY boring and lacking in rewards. Instead of having continual rewards for actual gameplay (i.e. achieve in-game objective, get sweet gear), the only time there's ever anything to work for is when a new expansion comes out. Then they take all the power creep that would normally come from your gear and trick you into grinding it out just the same (under different names)

    And in between expansions? Go to the gem store and spend money. Because the players absolutely forbid there to be any meaningful rewards at the end of difficult content. Hit a new milestone in-game? Congrats! Here's another basket full of trash you have no use for.

  • lokh.2695lokh.2695 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2018

    The complaint comes a bit late, and I think it would not be a problem at all, if ascended would have been in the game since release. But since it was introduced a year after ppl question if it was a good idea or not.
    Ascended gear is easily accessable in any mode that "requires" it. Sure you can't go t4 fractals w/o it, but you can do t1 fractals to gain currency to buy ascended gear for higher tiers. Like that you learn how the fractals work and get used to it, instead of popping that lvl 80 boost and jumping right into 100cm. Same goes for raids. since there's no agony you don't need the infusion slot and for some of the easier, less demanding encounters, you don't need to be full ascended, giving you the chance to gear up as you move along. It won't happen in the blink of an eye but it will happen eventually. You can get ascended gear from PvP(a mode that doesn't need any sort of gear) or WvW just by participating in the mode. You don't even need to be good or win a lot or whatever. Ascended ascessories/backpieces/weapons are available in open world PvE and/or various different collections that don't require you to go into t4 fractals or raids, giving you the opportunity to gear up. And there's even, you know, crafting. Yes it's tedious and expensive, but since it's the final tier of gear in this game and the items are somewhat stat changeable, you craft an item once and are done with it for some time.
    I admit, when ascended was introduced, it was hard to get and even more expensive than it is today. You couldn't get all the stat combinations everywhere and more than half the game was left out of any form of aquisition. But a lot has improved since then. Ascended is more available than ever and while you can say that it wasn't necessary to implement a tier above exotic, I think it added a lot as a longer term goal, something between exotic, which is so easy to obtain that it doesn't serve as long term goal, and legendary, which is too grindy, too expensive and too time consuming for many players to go for.
    And before I forget to remind you, before there was ascended, ppl were asked to ping their exotics so everyone was sure that everyone was playing dat maxlvlgear. It's not like ascended introduced this kind of behavior to the game (or gamers in general) or that removing this tier of gear would also remove the ppl asking for BiS gear ;)

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  • The thread is somewhat pointless, because it is years ago ascended was introduced and cannot be unmade now. If you ask me, ascended gear is ok as final gear level. The mistake was not introducing it in the first place, the only mistake was not to introduce it at game release. A mistake was as well the many pointless junk armor levels (white, blue, green), because beginners thought these levels were valid, tried playing with it and perished - and left the game as consequence.

    But ascended itself is ok. If you only play 2 hours a week, exotic is your final gear level, and that's perfectly ok for this play time. If you play more, you have many ways to acquire ascended gear, and if you look faithfully in guides and wiki you will find ways that are expensive, but not prohibitively expensive. You just have to not exchange your gold for gems to get the latest mount skin, you have to invest it into crafting instead.

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  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    The only gear gate this game has is fractals. Mechanically. Other gates are artificial barriers created by players. So the problem here are players not gear. You can't fix players.

    It should only be related to PvE modes.
    A progression for compulsive gear farmers It's understandable to me, but WvW should be something apart ( with standard equip and stuff = from lvl 2 to lvl 80 ).

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Strange as it might sound they did it because players kept on (and on, and on) asking for it. If you look at archives of the old forum from September and October 2012 the number one topic of discussion was what is there to work towards once you're level 80 and why is exotic equipment so easy to get when it leaves players who like improving their stats with nothing to do? Of course the answer to that was generally that Anet had advertised the game as lacking a gear treadmill so no one should be surprised, but that did absolutely nothing to quiet the complaints.

    Then in November they released Fractals and the first bits of ascended equipment (at the time it was only rings and they were only available as drops in Fractals). I'm still kind of surprised by this but it worked - the people who wanted harder content to grind and better stats as a reward/gating system to grinding the even harder version of the same thing got what they wanted and were (mostly) happy and the rest of us could ignore it because it was a largely self-contained system and were also (mostly) happy.

    I still don't have a full set of ascended equipment on my main character. I've got a coat and trousers I crafted because I like the skins, 2/3 weapons (1 legendary and 1 I got from a collection) and a backpack I got because I wanted to do the collection for it and trinkets I got from the laurel vendor. The rest is exotics. But I can still do everything I want to do in the game (I've even spoken to a couple of raid training teams who would take me, on the understanding that if I stick with it I'll work towards full ascended). I can also do almost everything on my alts who are in 100% exotics.

    Yes ascended does have higher stats but it's not enough to make a big difference, because as other people have said player skill makes a bigger difference. I've really noticed this lately because I've been playing a lot on very low level characters and I find myself having to hold back to make sure newer players get to tag enemies in events or get enough time to participate properly. We're about the same level and both have no traits, no utility skills and 3-4 pieces of white equipment and equally poor builds, but because I know what to do and how to do it I can run circles around them (literally if they haven't figured out strafing, dodging and using the mouse instead of the keyboard to turn).

    Obviously it's less noticeable at higher levels where there's less of an obvious gap in player skill, but even so I highly doubt a poor player in full ascended could beat a skilled player in full exotics in WvW. If they're both equally good ascended might make the difference, but so could latency or that one time someone's finger slips and they push the wrong button. I think it'd be very rare that how many pieces of ascended gear you have is the deciding factor in a fight.

    Personally I would prefer that they didn't introduce ascended gear, or made it easier for everyone to get so it's basically just like exotics. But I also accept that this game isn't just for me and a lot of people wanted this. And given the choice I'd rather Anet adapted to what large numbers of players want, if they can do it in a way that fits their vision of the game, than stick rigidly to what they'd originally planned regardless of whether it's working or not. This change didn't benefit me, but I'm sure other changes resulting from the same attitude have - like adding mounts.

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  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    Ascended also isn't usable in spvp, but creates endless confusion in that most new players to spvp constantly ask if their ascended gear is needed to participate in spvp or if ascended alters their stats there in some way.

    I don't think that's a result of ascended gear so much as the difference between GW2 and other games not being obvious enough. I see similar questions a lot, except a lot of the time what they're actually asking is "Can I do PvP in dungeon gear, or do I need raid gear first?" - which implies they're used to other games with a clear linear path for progression - you use crafted or dropped gear to run dungeons to get better gear, which you use to do the first raid, which you use to do the next raid, and so on until you've got the best there is (or as near as most people ever get) and then you're good enough to be allowed into PvP.

    Unless you've read up on the game in advance or gone to the Heart of the Mists and checked out how to put together a PvP build there's nothing to tell you that you don't need to do that here. And of course a lot of new players don't think to try entering PvP if they assume they aren't ready until they've played a lot of PvE.

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  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Danikat.8537 said:

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    Ascended also isn't usable in spvp, but creates endless confusion in that most new players to spvp constantly ask if their ascended gear is needed to participate in spvp or if ascended alters their stats there in some way.

    I don't think that's a result of ascended gear so much as the difference between GW2 and other games not being obvious enough. I see similar questions a lot, except a lot of the time what they're actually asking is "Can I do PvP in dungeon gear, or do I need raid gear first?" - which implies they're used to other games with a clear linear path for progression - you use crafted or dropped gear to run dungeons to get better gear, which you use to do the first raid, which you use to do the next raid, and so on until you've got the best there is (or as near as most people ever get) and then you're good enough to be allowed into PvP.

    Unless you've read up on the game in advance or gone to the Heart of the Mists and checked out how to put together a PvP build there's nothing to tell you that you don't need to do that here. And of course a lot of new players don't think to try entering PvP if they assume they aren't ready until they've played a lot of PvE.

    The point is that it's not a justification.

    There's only a 10% stats difference...
    Why should there be a 10% stats difference instead of standard stats for everybody?

    There's no excuse.
    Competitive modes won't EVER be balanced.
    But even so, there are no justification to bring equipment into competitive modes-

  • Haleydawn.3764Haleydawn.3764 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2018

    Of the 56 pieces of Ascended armor I have on my account, I think I only crafted 8-10 of them. I have 8 boxes of armor and 4 weapons in my bank, trying to decide what stats to give my Soulbeast. This is my final (9th) character I want to outfit in full Ascended.
    Ascended gear is very easy to come by now, all but 2-3 of the boxes I have came from doing Fractal dailies.

    You can now work towards PvP/WvW Ascended armor which is also upgradable to Legendary functionality. Not too shabby for a long term goal.

    But unless you do Fractals or you min/max for raids/WvW etc, you do not need Ascended gear at all.

    Better get a wriggle on.

  • Pridedemon.3041Pridedemon.3041 Member ✭✭
    edited January 29, 2018

    Gosh some people will always complain. There are so many ways to obtain ascended gear from just playing that i am salvaging them quite frequently (not talking about rings). You have pvp dropping ascended boxes, i expect 1 ascended box per week from fractals, so many achievement giving away ascended gear, tons of collections for ascended weapons but people still complain.
    If all else fails you can buy 2000 gems for $25, trade gems for gold and make a full set for a character. Combine this with a fact that once you make ascended gear its never going to get obsolete. The ascended sets that i made for my ele/ranger/warrior (one for every armor class) 3 years ago is still meta.

    Now compare this with wow, where with every new content patch you get a new armor/weapon tier and the old armor/weapon which you spend hundreds of hours acquiring from raids gets absolute. (This happens almost every 6-9 months when a new Raid is released).

  • @Pridedemon.3041 said:
    Gosh some people will always complain. There are so many ways to obtain ascended gear from just playing that i am salvaging them quite frequently (not talking about rings). You have pvp dropping ascended boxes, i expect 1 ascended box per week from fractals, so many achievement giving away ascended gear, tons of collections for ascended weapons but people still complain.
    If all else fails you can buy 2000 gems for $25, trade gems for gold and make a full set for a character. Combine this with a fact that once you make ascended gear its never going to get obsolete. The ascended sets that i made for my ele/ranger/warrior (one for every armor class) 3 years ago is still meta.

    Now compare this with wow, where with every new content patch you get a new armor/weapon tier and the old armor/weapon which you spend hundreds of hours acquiring from raids gets absolute. (This happens almost every 6-9 months when a new Raid is released).

    The meta has changed in that time, so you are pretty much lying or are averting to important information. Druid came about (zerk or healing gear), Ele become condition damage for a period. Warrior changed completely from power after HoT.

    After having made a new account. I can see perfectly why people are unhappy with the ascended armour system. One week for one box is pretty... brutal? I've farmed out fractals, dungeons and open world strenuously for a week on this new account, and my gold number has only just gone over 100, with only few materials saved for the potential of crafting an ascended backpiece etc. The amount of relics you obtain with lower-tier fractal dailies is fairly pitiful. I have seen the fractal ascended accessories etc that were added, but they seem a year off...

    OR as you said, you could pay $25 to unlock one character's worth of armour, which is more than most people pay nowadays for a Heart of Thorns key (and in that, far over 50% of the game). You either pay real money, or grind.

  • Neutra.6857Neutra.6857 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @Danikat.8537 said:

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    Ascended also isn't usable in spvp, but creates endless confusion in that most new players to spvp constantly ask if their ascended gear is needed to participate in spvp or if ascended alters their stats there in some way.

    I don't think that's a result of ascended gear so much as the difference between GW2 and other games not being obvious enough. I see similar questions a lot, except a lot of the time what they're actually asking is "Can I do PvP in dungeon gear, or do I need raid gear first?" - which implies they're used to other games with a clear linear path for progression - you use crafted or dropped gear to run dungeons to get better gear, which you use to do the first raid, which you use to do the next raid, and so on until you've got the best there is (or as near as most people ever get) and then you're good enough to be allowed into PvP.

    Unless you've read up on the game in advance or gone to the Heart of the Mists and checked out how to put together a PvP build there's nothing to tell you that you don't need to do that here. And of course a lot of new players don't think to try entering PvP if they assume they aren't ready until they've played a lot of PvE.

    The point is that it's not a justification.

    There's only a 10% stats difference...
    Why should there be a 10% stats difference instead of standard stats for everybody?

    There's no excuse.
    Competitive modes won't EVER be balanced.
    But even so, there are no justification to bring equipment into competitive modes-

    When I first started PvP I was trying to figure out how to set up my gear with exotics, not ascended. Someone had to tell me that my gear in PvE did nothing in PvP. The issue with PvP is not ascended, it is that people think that their PvE gear matters at all in PvP, regardless of if it is simple greens or ascended.

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Neutra.6857 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:

    @Danikat.8537 said:

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    Ascended also isn't usable in spvp, but creates endless confusion in that most new players to spvp constantly ask if their ascended gear is needed to participate in spvp or if ascended alters their stats there in some way.

    I don't think that's a result of ascended gear so much as the difference between GW2 and other games not being obvious enough. I see similar questions a lot, except a lot of the time what they're actually asking is "Can I do PvP in dungeon gear, or do I need raid gear first?" - which implies they're used to other games with a clear linear path for progression - you use crafted or dropped gear to run dungeons to get better gear, which you use to do the first raid, which you use to do the next raid, and so on until you've got the best there is (or as near as most people ever get) and then you're good enough to be allowed into PvP.

    Unless you've read up on the game in advance or gone to the Heart of the Mists and checked out how to put together a PvP build there's nothing to tell you that you don't need to do that here. And of course a lot of new players don't think to try entering PvP if they assume they aren't ready until they've played a lot of PvE.

    The point is that it's not a justification.

    There's only a 10% stats difference...
    Why should there be a 10% stats difference instead of standard stats for everybody?

    There's no excuse.
    Competitive modes won't EVER be balanced.
    But even so, there are no justification to bring equipment into competitive modes-

    When I first started PvP I was trying to figure out how to set up my gear with exotics, not ascended. Someone had to tell me that my gear in PvE did nothing in PvP. The issue with PvP is not ascended, it is that people think that their PvE gear matters at all in PvP, regardless of if it is simple greens or ascended.

    Yeah I do agree with you ( I was refering to your first line but I misread it ).

  • When they launched the game, it was only needed for fractals. Nowadays it is only needed for high tier fractals and raids. Often you see LFG's looking for ridicilious proofs of specialism. But to be honest, having ascended should do it. I'm against gearchecks, but please add a name icon to those who have full set of ascended as proof they have it. And those idiots who are going to require it for something trivial als world bosses and dungeons are going to get punched in the noise personally by me ;)

  • Pridedemon.3041Pridedemon.3041 Member ✭✭
    edited January 29, 2018

    @Jason.5983 said:

    @Pridedemon.3041 said:
    Gosh some people will always complain. There are so many ways to obtain ascended gear from just playing that i am salvaging them quite frequently (not talking about rings). You have pvp dropping ascended boxes, i expect 1 ascended box per week from fractals, so many achievement giving away ascended gear, tons of collections for ascended weapons but people still complain.
    If all else fails you can buy 2000 gems for $25, trade gems for gold and make a full set for a character. Combine this with a fact that once you make ascended gear its never going to get obsolete. The ascended sets that i made for my ele/ranger/warrior (one for every armor class) 3 years ago is still meta.

    Now compare this with wow, where with every new content patch you get a new armor/weapon tier and the old armor/weapon which you spend hundreds of hours acquiring from raids gets absolute. (This happens almost every 6-9 months when a new Raid is released).

    The meta has changed in that time, so you are pretty much lying or are averting to important information. Druid came about (zerk or healing gear), Ele become condition damage for a period. Warrior changed completely from power after HoT.

    After having made a new account. I can see perfectly why people are unhappy with the ascended armour system. One week for one box is pretty... brutal? I've farmed out fractals, dungeons and open world strenuously for a week on this new account, and my gold number has only just gone over 100, with only few materials saved for the potential of crafting an ascended backpiece etc. The amount of relics you obtain with lower-tier fractal dailies is fairly pitiful. I have seen the fractal ascended accessories etc that were added, but they seem a year off...

    OR as you said, you could pay $25 to unlock one character's worth of armour, which is more than most people pay nowadays for a Heart of Thorns key (and in that, far over 50% of the game). You either pay real money, or grind.

    You know for a fact that you can change ascended armor stats right? It takes about 10g per piece and few skill points to do that (and if you are actively playing game then you will have more then you can ever use).
    So 50-80g for changing ascended stats in 2 years, it it that bad? You can easily make twice that amount in a week by simply playing the game.
    And this is an MMO, grind is the basis of any MMO. Grind in GW2 is much more reasonable then most other MMO's i have played. Seriously if you don't like to grind for gear then you shouldn't even be playing an MMO.

    Then there is pvp, which doesn't require any gear, you can go naked in ranked pvp against a character who is full legendary and he will have 0 gear benefit over you. Now if you want to do top tier fractals and raids then needing a semi-grind gear is more then reasonable. You mostly need ascended gear for its infusion slots so unless you want to do T3/T4 fractals you can easily get away with a mixed of exotic/ascended.

  • I was playing when ascended was introduced and it was a huge mistake IMO. I've said so many time. But it's been in game for so long and I don't think it will ever be removed at this point. ANet was trying to shoe horn "progression" into a game that didn't need it and wasn't designed for it to satisfy a vocal part of the player base. Whether it worked or not, only ANet can say. Caught most people by surprise since ANet was pretty adamant that there would never be that type of progression in game. Also, there was very limited ways of obtaining it for the first few years - basically grind for time gated and account bound mats and grind to get your crafting levels up to 500 so that you could craft armor and weapons. Fractals, laurels, and guild commendations for accessories. That was pretty much it at the time. Also, no way to change stats on the weapons or armor when the game was updated/rebalanced so you needed to re-gear and do it all again. It was straight up an artificial time and money sink.

    I'm still not a fan of ascended, but it's handled much better now than when it was introduced. There are many ways to get ascended weapons and accessories currently. I recently got 2 PoF ascended weapons collections finished without really trying, just by playing the game. The LS3 maps give many ways to get accessories (Winterberries, Jade, Flowers, etc.). You can change the stats on your armor and weapons fairly easily and for a moderate cost. The daily log in reward gives you a vision crystal every 30 days if you choose the ascended chest so that you don't ever have to grind for emperyal, dragonite, or bloodstone again for armor or weapons.

  • Professor Sprout.1560Professor Sprout.1560 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2018

    Independent of the question of what can be done about it (and there are still things which can be done) I think the topic raised by the OP is worth discussing just from the basis of theoretical game design. And for my own part not only do I agree with the OP I would go a lot further. Though I would not express myself in terms of "mistakes" if I had been given the responsibility of designing the gear system in this game then:

    • There would be no ascended gear.
    • Higher rarities of gear would not provide better bonuses to stats.
    • Bonuses to specific stats would not be bound to specific pieces of gear.
    • Gear would not provide bonuses to stats.
    • There would be no intermediate stats (in the sense of base stats the can be customized by the player and which set the values for the player's derived stats).

    Although perhaps somewhat radical, I am convinced that not only is functional gearing unnecessary for an MMO with GW2's business model to function, but it actually hinders and crowds out better alternative systems.

  • Ascended gear is not a barrier to any content in the game, save higher tier fractals. You are either forgetting or are unaware of the history of why ascended gear was added to the game. Originally it was just rings, explicitly added to introduce infusion slots onto gear for people who did fractals. In fact, there was a point where ascended rings had less stats that an exotic with a slotted gem. Later, amulets and accessories were added to allow for more infusion slots for, again, people who did fractals.

    At launch, you could only get exotic quality gear with the exception of legendary weapons, which had higher stats than their exotic counterparts. Legendaries were prohibitively expensive, so ascended weapons were added to provide players a means of getting the same stats as a legendary weapon without the massive material and time investment needed for a legendary. And so the trend continued, with ArenaNet adding ascended armor to allow for a completely ascended setup.

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    My friends feel that ascended gear was a mistake in game design. It serves as an artificial barrier for entry into content, over something as trivial as a 5-10% stat gain.

    That barrier only exists for higher tier fractals, as you will probably need the extra infusion slots for more AR. It may create a psychological barrier, but no other content actually requires you to be in ascended.

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    In wvw it gives a noticeable advantage in what should be a somewhat fair pvp setting. 5-10% more damage on a full zerker or condi build especially on multiple targets is a lot of damage over time, enough to be noticeable, and enough to get you excluded from raiding guilds/commander squads and parties if you don't have it. wouldn't it be nice if it was all exotics, which are easy to get and nobody would really have to think about it or question whether or not your playing with max stats?

    WvW has never been, nor will ever be a "fair pvp setting". Also you are ignoring how damage is actually calculated in this game - a 5-10% increase in stats does not directly translate into a boost in damage by 5-10%. I have never heard of anyone being excluded from a WvW squad for not having ascended. ( It's not like they can actually check anyways...) I have also never heard of any veteran WvW player tell others that ascended is "required" to be successful in WvW - most will tell you skill is more important than gear, and the difference between fighting in full exotics vs full ascended is negligible in the grand scheme of things.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2018

    @Danikat.8537 said:
    Strange as it might sound they did it because players kept on (and on, and on) asking for it.

    Untrue. At the moment they've introduced it, almost noone was asking for it. What people asked was new maps, new events, new dungeons... so, new content. Ascended wasn't that (if you look at the posts from that time, you will see that many of the players asking about new content were also very aggresively against introducing new gear tiers). It was merely a really cheap surrogate, that Anet introduced because they couldn't make what people asked for.

    @xihorus.2804 said:
    In fact, there was a point where ascended rings had less stats that an exotic with a slotted gem.

    That was never the case. All ascended rings had not only higher base stats, but also ascended tier jewels preslotted.

    @xihorus.2804 said:
    At launch, you could only get exotic quality gear with the exception of legendary weapons, which had higher stats than their exotic counterparts.

    Again, not true. Legendaries had exotic-level stats then. They were bumped up to the ascended level only after ascended gear got introduced. You;re likely thinking about them getting a bump a month or two before ascended weapons appeared - that was a mistake that got almost immediately fixed.

    @xihorus.2804 said:
    WvW has never been, nor will ever be a "fair pvp setting". Also you are ignoring how damage is actually calculated in this game - a 5-10% increase in stats does not directly translate into a boost in damage by 5-10%.

    Indeed. The multiplicative nature of damage calculations make the damage increase percentage bigger than the percentage increase to stats. Originally, before critical damage-> ferocity change, berserker stat set damage difference between full exotic and full ascended was around 17-18%

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • IndigoSundown.5419IndigoSundown.5419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @xihorus.2804 said:
    Ascended gear is not a barrier to any content in the game, save higher tier fractals. You are either forgetting or are unaware of the history of why ascended gear was added to the game. Originally it was just rings, explicitly added to introduce infusion slots onto gear for people who did fractals. In fact, there was a point where ascended rings had less stats that an exotic with a slotted gem. Later, amulets and accessories were added to allow for more infusion slots for, again, people who did fractals.

    Ascended rings always had higher stats than exotic ones.

    At launch, you could only get exotic quality gear with the exception of legendary weapons, which had higher stats than their exotic counterparts. Legendaries were prohibitively expensive, so ascended weapons were added to provide players a means of getting the same stats as a legendary weapon without the massive material and time investment needed for a legendary.

    Also incorrect. Legendary weapons at launch had the same stats as exotics. This remained true until Ascended weapons debuted in 2013, at which point Legendary stats were raised to match the new Ascended ones.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    Ascended rings always had higher stats than exotic ones.

    When they were first released, ascended rings had higher base stats than exotics but you could not place gems in them. As I remember, because of this an exotic berserker ring with a Exquisite Ruby Jewel had higher stats than an ascended berserker ring. This was later remedied to include the stats of the gems, which is why some rings like Ralena's Band have odd stats (Dire ring with a Rabid jewel).

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    Also incorrect. Legendary weapons at launch had the same stats as exotics. This remained true until Ascended weapons debuted in 2013, at which point Legendary stats were raised to match the new Ascended ones.

    Checked some ancient reddit posts regarding this and I stand corrected - I didn't start working on my first legendary until after ascended weapons were released, so I was unaware that there was a point where they had the same stats as an exotic.

  • Drecien.4508Drecien.4508 Member ✭✭✭

    Ascended were put in to allow infusions. Without it being soooo much better than exotics. I've seen no instance of people requiring ascended gear for raids, fractals or wvw. Hyperbole.

    New mount skins?! Anet take my money!

  • Mea.5491Mea.5491 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2018

    I used to think that Ascended gear was a mistake because back in the day when it was released it was expensive and tedious to get. But nowadays Ascended trinkets are basically free thanks to living world maps/currencies, the armor pieces and weapons are easy to craft, you can get many from collections and they have a chance to drop in every game mode. I got my Engi's full Ascended set as drops and I don't even do fractals where they drop like crazy...

  • jbrother.1340jbrother.1340 Member ✭✭✭

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:
    When they launched the game, it was only needed for fractals. Nowadays it is only needed for high tier fractals and raids. Often you see LFG's looking for ridicilious proofs of specialism. But to be honest, having ascended should do it. I'm against gearchecks, but please add a name icon to those who have full set of ascended as proof they have it. And those idiots who are going to require it for something trivial als world bosses and dungeons are going to get punched in the noise personally by me ;)

    You have the right idea you are just stating it badly.

    Probably should go ahead and hold off on threatening others with violence no matter how innocent you feel it is...

    Gear check and elitism stem far and wide in this world at every level. Even scabs have a level of elitism within that social realm... Perception is a messy business.

    I never run into these issues with normal world boss or open stuff nor do I regularly see that requested in LFG...

    I think people are overstating what is actually happening because they really believe in their own opinions. Just don't forget that they are just that.

    If you don't like others opinions of what they want for their play time in the groups they are starting, then start your own guild/group/party FUN.

  • mtpelion.4562mtpelion.4562 Member ✭✭✭

    Agony Resistance should have been an account bound stat (similar to Magic Find). This would have allowed Ascended gear to exist as a long term goal without also making it a barrier to entry for any type of content. Also, all gear should be normalized to Exotic tier stats in WvW.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't see a solution to this 'problem', though I can say it's way easier to get Ascended than it was when it was introduced, so the 'problem' of getting it has been alleviated quite a bit ...

    ... and as context, I can remember a time in this game when exotic get was hard to get too, simply because the drop rates for the mats were so low ... so any 'problem' that top tier gear is 'hard' to get is rather laughable. It's hard ENOUGH, but not TOO hard ... a perfect balance IMO. Players will ALWAYS use gear as a measure of high end readiness because it shows a player's willingness and drive to be successful, so any argument that it provides people a barrier to entry makes no sense. If it wasn't ascended gear, it would be Exotics ... and if raids were so easy that the gear to do it was as easy to get as that, no one would care what you wear ... case in point; current dungeon runs and low level fracs.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:
    Just like every other gear check in every other MMORPG? Try doing Raids in WoW without the bear minimum gear, or join a decent guild in BDO without the proper gear score.

    yah, but you gotta understand, if they wanted to play a game with a gear score, they would have gone and played a game with gear score and not come here.

    I am not saying that they should not suck it up and deal, and either git gud or move on.. just saying maybe they came here to get away from that, but sucks to be them right.. cause it's here now.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Vrita.7846Vrita.7846 Member ✭✭✭

    Why are people still complaining about ascended gear when it's easier than ever to get it nowadays? I could understand if we went back in time to when it was first released, but now? T7 mats have dropped in price over the years, and gold is really easy to get, crafting your first set is quite easy even for a new player. After you've obtained your first set, it gets even easier to obtain future sets as you now have access to fractals, which not only drops armor and weapon boxes, but is an excellent source of gold.

  • PaxTheGreatOne.9472PaxTheGreatOne.9472 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2018

    I'll just say ascneded gear dropped extremely in price, and the number of ways to aquire it exploded. And since legendary gear came out the market is pretty much saturated...

    You can get weapons, armor and trinkets from WvW, PvP, Crafting , Fractals, Raids and occasional drops in PvE
    The cost of most mats at this time has dropped to 40% of their values 2 -4 years ago....

    The ONLY thing whcih can be troublesome when crafting is augur stones cause the need to shell out spirit shards which are harder to come by when you're not mastery capped (for the content region).

    I'm probably a bit biased as i have 26 ascneded armors and 150 weapons for my 23 characters, and my 24th has legendary armor, back and weapons, and the 1st trinket.

    27 lvl 80's, 10 times map. 3 War, 3 Grd, 1 Rev, 3 Rng, 3 Thf, 1 Eng, 4 Ele, 6 Ncr, 3 Msm
    14k+ Hrs Played, "Been There, Done That , Might Do It Again!"

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2018

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:
    Just like every other gear check in every other MMORPG? Try doing Raids in WoW without the bear minimum gear, or join a decent guild in BDO without the proper gear score.

    yah, but you gotta understand, if they wanted to play a game with a gear score, they would have gone and played a game with gear score and not come here.

    I am not saying that they should not suck it up and deal, and either git gud or move on.. just saying maybe they came here to get away from that, but sucks to be them right.. cause it's here now.

    Nowhere, anywhere is there stated that this game only has one tier of gear. Not one of the points of sale for this game is that it only has one.
    So why would they come here expecting it?

    Not to mention that the OP's point of comparison is PUBG? Really?

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:
    Just like every other gear check in every other MMORPG? Try doing Raids in WoW without the bear minimum gear, or join a decent guild in BDO without the proper gear score.

    yah, but you gotta understand, if they wanted to play a game with a gear score, they would have gone and played a game with gear score and not come here.

    I am not saying that they should not suck it up and deal, and either git gud or move on.. just saying maybe they came here to get away from that, but sucks to be them right.. cause it's here now.

    Nowhere, anywhere is there stated that this game only has one tier of gear. Not one of the points of sale for this game is that it only has one.
    So why would they come here expecting it?

    Not to mention that the OP's point of comparison is PUBG? Really?

    I'd encourage you to Read This. It's kinda long, but it might give you an idea where some of these people are coming from, not that it matters mind you, I mean, they are gonna deal with what they have or go cry off to another game.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:
    Just like every other gear check in every other MMORPG? Try doing Raids in WoW without the bear minimum gear, or join a decent guild in BDO without the proper gear score.

    yah, but you gotta understand, if they wanted to play a game with a gear score, they would have gone and played a game with gear score and not come here.

    I am not saying that they should not suck it up and deal, and either git gud or move on.. just saying maybe they came here to get away from that, but sucks to be them right.. cause it's here now.

    Nowhere, anywhere is there stated that this game only has one tier of gear. Not one of the points of sale for this game is that it only has one.
    So why would they come here expecting it?

    Not to mention that the OP's point of comparison is PUBG? Really?

    I agree. I never saw anything said by Anet that the game would have only a single tier of gear. However, in the build up to launch, the game was marketed in a variety of ways. One of them included the following selling point:

    "Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game."
    -Colin Johanson

    They got pretty close to that (from my experience) prior to the addition of ascended. My main was fully geared in exotics fairly shortly after reaching level 80. Not, "by level 80," but pretty close. Now those days are long past. The addition of ascended tier gear nullified that selling point but there really isnt any going back now. I took a break from the game over the addition, eliminated spending on the game for the most part (other than buying expansions), and don't feel the need to withhold my opinion when a thread wanders onto the topic, but its a decent game worth playing even if one of the major reasons for buying the game (for me) was eliminated.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2018

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:
    Just like every other gear check in every other MMORPG? Try doing Raids in WoW without the bear minimum gear, or join a decent guild in BDO without the proper gear score.

    yah, but you gotta understand, if they wanted to play a game with a gear score, they would have gone and played a game with gear score and not come here.

    I am not saying that they should not suck it up and deal, and either git gud or move on.. just saying maybe they came here to get away from that, but sucks to be them right.. cause it's here now.

    No, you need to understand that the gear score is a player-instituted thing. There is no such thing as 'gone to a game without a gear score' unless you play a game with no players ...

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • IndigoSundown.5419IndigoSundown.5419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2018

    @xihorus.2804 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    Ascended rings always had higher stats than exotic ones.

    When they were first released, ascended rings had higher base stats than exotics but you could not place gems in them. As I remember, because of this an exotic berserker ring with a Exquisite Ruby Jewel had higher stats than an ascended berserker ring. This was later remedied to include the stats of the gems, which is why some rings like Ralena's Band have odd stats (Dire ring with a Rabid jewel).

    Since this did not jive with my memory, I looked at the wiki history pages.

    Currently, the ring of Red Death offers: 126 Power, 85 Precision, 85 Ferocity. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ring_of_Red_Death
    The earliest history entry with stats (26 Feb, 2013) shows: Power, 71+32 = 103; Precision, 50+18=68 and Critical Damage 4%+4% = 8%.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Ring_of_Red_Death&oldid=524647

    So, yes, it looks like at least the Ascended 3 stat rings got a buff at some point. When is not clear as interim history pages dropped showing the stats until the 8 January, 2017 entry. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Ring_of_Red_Death&action=history

    When I look at the Ruby Orichalcum Ring of the Berserker, I see: Power, 90; Precision 64 and Ferocity 64. With the jewel (25, 15, 15), that would make 115, 79, 79. That looks like it's more than the early version of the Ascended ring. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Orichalcum_Ring&oldid=1216902

    However, looking at the history for the Orichalcum Rings, it looks like the exotic rings got a buff between the page revisions of May and June 2016. Prior, the stats were:
    Power 75, Precision 53, Ferocity 53. Add in the jewel for 100, 68, 68. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Orichalcum_Ring&oldid=1207955

    So, if those wiki history pages are correct, then not only did Ascended rings get a buff, Exotic ones did as well. Also, if correct, the initial difference was 3 power and 2% critical damage.

    smh

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • Nuka Cola.8520Nuka Cola.8520 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ascended items were a mistake
    Abandoning dungeons was a mistake
    Forgetting WvW is in their game is a mistake
    Having 1.5 person in charge of the balance is a mistake
    Making elite specs SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful than core is a mistake

    GW2 is a mistake factory.

  • aceofbass.2163aceofbass.2163 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2018

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    In pve it serves as psychological barrier for players to constantly question and exclude others from fractals and raids. It also results in endless inquiries into whether or not you have ascended gear, and to show said ascended gear to everyone. >

    In openworld pve nobody would care what you have on and in raids even exotics are enough for you to get in as long as you know the mechanics, know your the correct build and rotation. It's really just required if you are planning to do the highest tier fractals as the slot in ascended are needed for the agony infusions.

    In wvw it gives a noticeable advantage in what should be a somewhat fair pvp setting. 5-10% more damage on a full zerker or condi build especially on multiple targets is a lot of damage over time, enough to be noticeable, and enough to get you excluded from raiding guilds/commander squads and parties if you don't have it. wouldn't it be nice if it was all exotics, which are easy to get and nobody would really have to think about it or question whether or not your playing with max stats?

    dude 5-10% is paltry. don't blow up the difference to make it seem such a huge one. Even exos can crush ascended geared people. You can win in wvw by having tactics and/or numbers, not 5% gear difference.

    Ascended also isn't usable in spvp, but creates endless confusion in that most new players to spvp constantly ask if their ascended gear is needed to participate in spvp or if ascended alters their stats there in some way.

    Good. It's more balanced that way. Also, new players (as in never stepped into HoTM) will be confused of course but once they ask in map chat about the pvp build or even just see that button settings it won't be a problem. Not an ENDLESS confusion at all. It's normal for new people to ask questions (creates endless confusion in that most new players to spvp constantly ask if their ascended gear is needed) and if you are annoyed by that...well that's a different problem. It's even an advantage to them that they can participate even with the most basic gear.

    All i know is most games are gravitating towards leveling the playing field and gw2 straddles that line with ascended gear as a way of catering to people who want gear grind. Imagine playing PUBG, but some guy has 10% more health, damage and defense, simply because, he played more hours and grinded for those stats. Makes for silly game play that I'm not sure many would tolerate.

    Uhm....you know you are playing an MMORPG right? Also GW2 has the least amount of effort you have to progress gear right now, unlike WoW or BDO.

    In all honestly, this is just laziness. If you want something good, you have to work on it a at least a little bit. Ascended items are not hard to acquire considering they are the top tier gear. Don't be such a millennial man.

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