Should Kalla Spirits have low cooldowns, untargetable abilities, or 360 radius. Pick 2

After much discussion, a eureka moment, and checking Dev comments, the problem is clear. 360 radius is too big for spammable aoes. It's the size of most capture points, longer than two dodge rolls, capable of being cast against a gate to hit even the best placed Flame Ram, etc. The only things allowed to spam untargetable aoes that size are siege. Players gets 2/3 options. And everything, including siege, has LoS or pathing issues to balance wall fighting.

In otherwords do you want Kalla Spirits to be like Shades, Barrage, or Fresh Air Tempests?

As easily interruptable mortal pbAoErs with a 360 radius they are closest to the latter, and unless reworked will probably recieve similar buffs as overloads. But they will never be incredibly durable because Tempests risk their life while Kalla Spirits aren't linked to our health.

Edit: untargetable means you can't select it with the mouse or hit it with aoes. No one can touch it. It's as if it's a weapon skill and not a summon. Reflection, retailation, auras will harm you, not it.

I love how you don't give up with the untargetable stuff.I am fine with Kala's cooldowns and targetable minions but I am not happy with the effects on Razorclaw,Icerazor and SB4.

But... untargettable? You mean they spawn on my position instead of where I point?

@Carighan.6758 said:But... untargettable? You mean they spawn on my position instead of where I point?

Meaning they are just animations, like Shades. Every time they proc on hit effects like retail/auras you will receive the effect.

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:I love how you don't give up with the untargetable stuff.I am fine with Kala's cooldowns and targetable minions but I am not happy with the effects on Razorclaw,Icerazor and SB4.

I'm not particularly fond of the idea anymore. That's why it became a stupid poll. But I am happy it led to diagnosing the problem.

The effects on Razorclaw are vital to its position in PVE. I am not interested in it being reworked.

The effects on Icerazor are because of the radius, cooldown, and its synergy with Razorclaw/Soulcleave. If you want it to be changed I'm sure they'd nerf the radius or increase the cooldown to make the damage aoe. Or give it stab but make the first few seconds channelled like Air overload.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Don't bring up multiple sources to pull this off, it just hurts your argument. I like Ventari but I don't expect them to give it reflection just because WvW Firebrands can >cycle Chapter 3: Valiant Bulwark and/or Wall of Reflection.Multiple sources are absolutely valid to bring up as they should be considered when coming up with strategies. There's a reason you have multiple FBs and stability stackers and such in a zerg; you need multiple sources to achieve full/optimal coverage.

Multiple sources are invalid when balancing effects because it means you are asking one skill to have the same power level as multiple effects combined.

As such, consider multiple sources of CC and damage being thrown at Kalla's summons. Note that I'm not suggesting them become untargettable. If you read my suggestions it would be to add a few stacks of stab/more health to the summons as it's the logical place to start with balancing these. Even with multiple stability stacks Darkrazor and all his friends will still get ripped apart by small to large groups of players.

An elementalist could get ripped apart if they channel air or water overload. It doesn't mean they deserve stacks of stability. If they give up a huge amount of cleanse they can get one stack. Otherwise they need to waste earth attunement, or a vital cantrip.

So thats why they went with targetable summons! This poll was so oblivious. Thank you for mentioning the top of towers.

The summons are being balanced by their radius.

360 radius is the size of many capture points and the range of Flame Rams. Why

wouldn't

the kalla summons be vulnerable and have pathing issues?

The only way to reliably and safely hit a correctly placed Ram is to use siege.

• Everyone with 360 pbAoEs has to be in range of the ram/cleave to strike without leaving a tower.
• Everyone with ranged 360 aoes has longer cooldowns and/or pathing issues that can obstruct the skill.

Shades have max 300 radius so they were given spammy intangible ranged aoe. Then wall bombing became a problem and the Devs gave them the Renegade treatment but instead of pathing they went with LoS.

The only way we will get untargetability is a nerf to radius.

It's not only rams. It's the radius of capture points. And the aoe is larger than two dodge rolls.

2) my suggestions aren't to make them untargetable, but to give them a few stacks of stability (aka a fighting chance to actually be useful)

That won't happen. They are more likely to transfer all ccs from the summon to you.

3) my suggestions wouldn't make darkrazor broken as they still have no valid path/health bar/chance to be CCed/it still does practically 0 damage/has absolutely atrocious casting range (600) meaning you have to be pretty kitten close

An overloading tempest has all of those things. Except instead of a 600 range they are the one casting.

Fact: All of kalla's skills in their current forms will always be useless unless they receive some sort of change that helps make them semi-immune/immune to CC and quick death

This will likely happen. But it will be balanced off the fact they can die, you do not.

Fact: giving them a couple stacks of stability would be a good start to making them more usable outside of pve

I don't disagree but it will not be a couple of stacks if they give it to them directly. And it will come with corresponding nerfs.

Fact: Darkrazor can be nerfed in wvw/pvp if it ends up being too strong

It came nerfed. The pathing prevents you from casting to the top of towers. Now with the recent nerfs to Shades (which also came nerfed with 300 max radius) there is no way to consistently hit people at the back of walls. All of the skills that can do it have 20+ cooldowns

Fact: Actually try using Kalla/Darkrazor in wvw/pvp (I have, extensively!) and you'll see it's super gimmicky at best and completely useless at worst and that even with stability and/or immunity it would still need something else to make it actually useful and/or meta

I've tried it extensively in PvP. It was good. Especially versus thieves.

You didn't see Fresh Air tempests in WvW raids before or after HoT for the same reasons you just described. Perhaps we should just stay on Glint.

WvW is an inherently unbalanced game mode and always will be due to the fact that you have player number imbalances and damage/effects from dozens of different sources all at the same time. It will never be balanced the way WvWers want it to be balanced because it CAN'T be balanced due to the way the game mode works.

To not make important changes to an entire elite spec that is completely useless in 2/3rds of the entire game due to concerns over Darkrazor's interaction with flame ram siege is ludicrous

Which is why the Scourge community is furious. But they can't have people making siege useless.

An elementalist could get ripped apart if they channel air or water overload. It doesn't mean they deserve stacks of stability. If they give up a huge amount of cleanse they >can get one stack. Otherwise they need to waste earth attunement, or a vital cantrip.Tempest overloads are all stronger than any of Kalla's summons. They provide more support and damage mitigation for both you and your team. They also provide far more damage.

And most importantly they are mobile. The tempest can avoid damage and CC through good positioning during the cast. They can also change where the final effect occurs up until the end of the cast. At the end the 3 of the 4 overloads continue to persist on the ground for a short time and is unstoppable (untargettable) at that point until it times out.There is a reason that tempest and the overloads were meta defining in both pve and pvp for the entirety of HoT and Kalla's summons haven't seen any use outside of some raid bosses. You can't just walk out of an ele overload in the same way you can just walk out of all of Kalla's summons. These effects are far more flexible and downright just better in every single way.Also as i'm sure you're aware both Air overload and water are 360 radius.

Trust me, this isn't a comparison you want to make. There is no way in real life Renegade summons are even close to comparable to how good tempest overloads are/were.

And the aoe is larger than two dodge rolls.If anyone is walking straight across Darkrazor or Icerazor from edge to edge or double dodge rolling through it like that they're bad players. Period. There is no reality where you can't get out of the summon with one dodge roll unless you've forced yourself into a really tight corner.

That won't happen. They are more likely to transfer all ccs from the summon to you.This takes my idea and actually makes it worse. Transferring CCs to the caster is a surefire way to guarantee renegade players will continue to not take Kalla as one of their legends.

An overloading tempest has all of those things. Except instead of a 600 range they are the one casting.Go back to my earlier comments about how flexible and strong the ability to move while casting overloads is. This plus the fact that the overloads have dozens of excellent effects and all of Kalla's skills besides Darkrazor do not.

I don't disagree but it will not be a couple of stacks if they give it to them directly. And it will come with corresponding nerfs.No need to nerf them even if you give them X amount of stacks of stability. Their effects are just straight up not strong enough or flexible enough in pvp/wvw to warrant any sort of radius or effect nerf

I've tried it extensively in PvP. It was good. Especially versus thieves.

You didn't see Fresh Air tempests in WvW raids before or after HoT for the same reasons you just described. Perhaps we should just stay on Glint.I don't want to be that guy, but what level of Pvp? Because Kalla Renegade does not work well at all against any competent higher level player, including thieves. It vastly underperforms compared to Glint and the only semi-decent Renegade build (doesn't use Kalla) is carried by the fact that both Sword/Staff and Shiro are all fantastic (which is half of Heralds kit btw ;) and it might as well just be a core revenant power build.

Also maybe you didn't see any fresh air tempests in WvW raids, but my concern really isn't for WvW as mentioned before WvW is an inherently unbalanced game mode due to player population, unequal group sizes, and the effects of dozens of stacked AoE and other attacksTempest, as mentioned above, was meta defining in pvp for the entirety of HoT.

I don't need Kalla to be meta to be happy. I just want it to be in the realm of usable. You might say it's "good" in pvp, but the reality is that Kalla isn't even close to that. It has no defense. It has no mobility. It has no damage. It has bad support. It's honestly not even meme build level. It just flat out doesn't exist. If you don't believe me I'd be happy to duel you on any class while you use Kalla/X to show you that.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said: And most importantly they are mobile. The tempest can avoid damage and CC through good positioning during the cast. They can also change where the final effect occurs up until the end of the cast.At the end the 3 of the 4 overloads continue to persist on the ground for a short time and is unstoppable (untargettable) at that point until it times out.

You are mobile and can avoid damage and CC while casting.

Tempests and Spirits.

• can't apply effects while channeling without being within 360 range.
• are vulnerable to interrupt
• only have shorter cooldowns by camping, by using traits/skills to reduce recharge, or by wasting resources from the rest of the kit
• even if they fail as they begin channeling they apply a stack of protection

• the channels themselves come with effects like healing, damage + vuln, bleed, cripple, and stability. but these effects are split between them.

  Spirits have no unstoppable effect after channeling because they aren't a player. Losing 2-6 seconds of energy to cast them =/= you channeling for 4 seconds, or being targeted.

If you spend more energy, you start losing the ability to use other skills and it becomes more like channeling. Similarly, if you use skills with cheap energy but closer range it becomes more like having to stand being in 360 range instead of casting from 600. Both of which provide considerable strength and when combined easily surpass the effects of an overload.

Also maybe you didn't see any fresh air tempests in WvW raids, but my concern really isn't for WvW as mentioned before WvW is an inherently unbalanced game mode due to player population, unequal group sizes, and the effects of dozens of stacked AoE and other attacks

It is the developer's concern. They recently nerfed Scourge LoS because of wall fighting. And even if that mode didn't exist. Even fresh air tempest didn't simply channel overloads on capture points in sPvP. They had to waste other resources. We have no cantrips, or attunements to waste. So we waste energy and legend swaps.

but the reality is that Kalla isn't even close to that. It has no defense. It has no mobility. It has no damage. It has bad support.

Kalla is what you get when you subtract Glint from Druid+Chronomancer. It primarily a Raid spec, as Herald is primarily a PvP/WvW spec. To expect it to have the same stuff as its brother, or its parents is to expect them to design the same elite spec twice.

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:If you spend more energy, you start losing the ability to use other skills and it becomes more like channeling. Similarly, if you use skills with cheap energy but closer range >it becomes more like having to stand being in 360 range instead of casting from 600. Both of which provide considerable strength and when combined easily surpass the >effects of an overload.

It's clear we won't see eye to eye on this issue and I don't feel like debating it further.

Regardless of your attempts to defend Kalla summons, there are dozens of reasons why Tempests +overloads were meta and Renegades+Kalla are not in pvp. I'd suggest thinking on that before making the assertions that Kalla can do more and surpass the effects of overloads.

Kalla is what you get when you subtract Glint from Druid+Chronomancer. It primarily a Raid spec, as Herald is primarily a PvP/WvW spec.This is faulty logic and also not reflective of the reality of the class (or even of other professions). Herald was a meta raid spec for a long time until it was nerfed into the ground in pve due to pvp balance concerns. It may primarily be a pvp/wvw spec now, but that's not how it was when it was released and it certainly wasn't designed with only pvp/wvw in mind. Also Druid and Chronomancer are both actually good pvp specs.

There are 0 other "raid only" elite specs in the game. Every other elite outside of Renegade has been effective and/or meta in pvp at some point in time. Every other elite spec has mechanics that are functional and at least bring something to the table in pvp scenarios. Renegade does none of that honestly and Kalla (and shortbow) are the worst aspects of the spec and desperately need reworks and/or buffs before they're even close to competitive in pvp.

I do not think that an elite specialization should ever be designed with only 1 game mode in mind. Each specialization should be able to be played to a decent level in each form of content. And this applies to both Scrapper and Spellbreaker as well; I think they should have some sort of change that would allow them to at least be decently effective in pve. Same goes with Herald. But my main concern is with Kalla and making it better than the dumpster fire it currently is in PvP/WvW.

To expect it to have the same stuff as its brother, or its parents is to expect them to design the same elite spec twice.

I don't expect them to design the same elite specialization twice, but I expect them to at least make that elite specialization bring something to the table for that class in pvp.

Currently renegade has:1) not enough additional defense to survive and be useful compared to its core/herald/any other class2) not enough additional offense to compensate for its lack of defense compared to its core/herald/any other class3) not enough mobility compared to Herald4) not enough effective team support to be used as a competent bunker/support compared to herald/other class options5) Useless utilities for pvp that are even somewhat clunky/useless in a bunch of non-raid pve scenarios as well (i.e. no valid path in pve/summons getting CCed by regular pve mobs and fractal bosses)6) Weird Profession F2/3/4 skills that don't synergize well for the class for pvp (as much as I love Citadel Bombardment)7) Awful elite spec weapon for pvp that provides nothing but clunky mechanics and poor damage. Mace/axe is always 100% better in pvp (and most pve situations) for condi builds.

The thing is, you don't even need an elite specialization to have all of the above to be useful, you only need a few from the list. But the problem is that Renegade just doesn't have any of those things in pvp. It was billed as an "Offensive Support" with active gameplay (summons) to be compared to Herald's "Defensive Support" with more passive gameplay (upkeeps). Honestly it fails at both offense and support.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:If you spend more energy, you start losing the ability to use other skills and it becomes more like channeling. Similarly, if you use skills with cheap energy but closer range >it becomes more like having to stand being in 360 range instead of casting from 600. Both of which provide considerable strength and when combined easily surpass the >effects of an overload.

This was never a debate, nor am I "defending" them. I'm pointing out the limitations that Tempests, Kalla Spirits, and all other pbAoErs in the game share. Meta has nothing do with this. The choices in the poll are absolute. You can want 360 radius, low cooldown, and untargetability but it won't happen. You can say you aren't asking for untargetability but you want the spirit to avoid cc while you avoid the damage it receives. What is left to avoid after that?

Kalla is what you get when you subtract Glint from Druid+Chronomancer. It primarily a Raid spec, as Herald is primarily a PvP/WvW spec.it certainly wasn't designed with only pvp/wvw in mind. Also Druid and Chronomancer are both actually good pvp specs.

It's not about only. F2 and F4, are as mobile as facets. But when one creates very different elite specs for each expansion the resulting niches will fit the modes differently. I suspect Renegade or Herald will be restored to function in sPvP But the former is seems likely to be gone from WvW.

There are 0 other "raid only" elite specs in the game. Every other elite outside of Renegade has been effective and/or meta in pvp at some point in time. Every other elite spec has mechanics that are functional and at least bring something to the table in pvp scenarios. Renegade does none of that honestly and Kalla (and shortbow) are the worst aspects of the spec and desperately need reworks and/or buffs before they're even close to competitive in pvp.

Soulbeast says hi. Neither effective nor meta. Weaver says hi in sPvP

Each specialization should be able to be played to a decent level in each form of content. And this applies to both Scrapper and Spellbreaker as well; I think they should have some sort of change that would allow them to at least be decently effective in pve. Same goes with Herald. But my main concern is with Kalla and making it better than the dumpster fire it currently is in PvP/WvW.

To expect it to have the same stuff as its brother, or its parents is to expect them to design the same elite spec twice.

Don't hyperbolize. While I agree the shortbow needs fixing, the spec brings several things. I have played ventari/kalla and shiro/kalla successfully in sPvP. It's not meta but it is viable in platinum. .

Brainstorm how you would change Spellbreaker to be decently effective in PvE without it becoming broken in sPvP. Once you have a solid idea post it to the Warrior subforum and see how much they like it. If you can come up with something that has majority approval then you should brainstorm how you would fix Renegade while keeping it strong in PvE and tell the developers. If you can't please a majority then you're idea for Rev will probably just piss off members of game mode you don't enjoy.