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Photon forge skills hitting for 7k in spvp...


emblack.3754

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@Julius Seizure.4985 said:Thief main complaining about a 7k attack. Lol?

The thing is thief doesn't have the survivability of an engineer, with all the elixirs, neither the CCs and can't go 1,2,3,4,5 to chain 7k hits. In fact thief dps is quite low compared to the sheer healing power/tankiness most classes have. Hard hitting thief skills cost a lot of initiative. Not to mention there's practically just one damage dealer thief skill - death's judgement, it's in the deadeye spec and requires maximum malice to not tickle. Like I stated above you can't go yolo with a thief and do absurd amount of damage, you need to stick to a target and miraculously survive with a deadeye and don't even get me started with a conventional melee thief...

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Here come the holo mains to defend their spec lmao.

5k dmg autoattacks6-8k dmg holo leap on a 2s cd TWO SECONDS!pulsing 5-6k corona + vent exhaust + minesweeper that basically means: get close to me for 1 second and you'll receive 20k damage.8k photon blitz.600 radius aoe CC holographic shockwave (largest aoe radius in the entire game btw).

Balanced guys. It's fine because you can dodge, reflect, immune, etc. Nevermind you need to dodge every single one of those abilities and you only get 2-3 dodges.

Super balanced actually.

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@emblack.3754 said:

@Julius Seizure.4985 said:Thief main complaining about a 7k attack. Lol?

The thing is thief doesn't have the survivability of an engineer, with all the elixirs, neither the CCs and can't go 1,2,3,4,5 to chain 7k hits. In fact thief dps is quite low compared to the sheer healing power/tankiness most classes have. Hard hitting thief skills cost a lot of initiative. Not to mention there's practically just one damage dealer thief skill - death's judgement, it's in the deadeye spec and requires maximum malice to not tickle. Like I stated above you can't go yolo with a thief and do absurd amount of damage, you need to stick to a target and miraculously survive with a deadeye and don't even get me started with a conventional melee thief...

Dagger thief seems to be what you lack

4 auto attacks a second. Theres your free damage and also applies poison so there goes enemy sustain

Personally i go with daredevil

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@Razor.6392 said:Here come the holo mains to defend their spec lmao.

5k dmg autoattacks6-8k dmg holo leap on a 2s cd TWO SECONDS!pulsing 5-6k corona + vent exhaust + minesweeper that basically means: get close to me for 1 second and you'll receive 20k damage.8k photon blitz.600 radius aoe CC holographic shockwave (largest aoe radius in the entire game btw).

Balanced guys. It's fine because you can dodge, reflect, immune, etc. Nevermind you need to dodge every single one of those abilities and you only get 2-3 dodges.

Super balanced actually.

I think most engineers agree that shockwave should have its radius lowered to corona burst's as well as something needing to be done about mines+vent

Photon blitz should be the least of QQers complaints not only does it do half pve damage in pvp and wvw but it generates 16 % heat everyone complaining reads what forge mode skills do but ignore the whole heat mechanic

Im sorry but if a holosmith is toying with players they arent presuring back

Shockwave alone adds 25% heat , from what every qqer points out there must be a dual grandmaster holosmith build apparently that allows both the +50 heat trait and vent exhaust to work together apparently

I commend you for being probably the only person at least showing up some numbers and cooldowns

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@Razor.6392 said:Here come the holo mains to defend their spec lmao.

5k dmg autoattacks6-8k dmg holo leap on a 2s cd TWO SECONDS!pulsing 5-6k corona + vent exhaust + minesweeper that basically means: get close to me for 1 second and you'll receive 20k damage.8k photon blitz.600 radius aoe CC holographic shockwave (largest aoe radius in the entire game btw).

Balanced guys. It's fine because you can dodge, reflect, immune, etc. Nevermind you need to dodge every single one of those abilities and you only get 2-3 dodges.

Super balanced actually.

You obviously know your stuff. Now it becomes clear why holosmiths plain and simple delete their opponents. Every time a holo says he's not op i'll direct him to this comment lol.

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Holo can't Might stack as effectively without ECSU so it's those numbers OR Vent Exhaust. Might from ECSU can't be stacked out of combat for a one-shot. Also you're posting Zerker crit numbers. Holos that deal that much damage are getting exploded in return and lack access to crit boosting traits. I mean are you gonna complain about P/P Deadeyes or FA ele too? That's about the same level of cheese, but from range with much more reliable crits.

Also, a TON of professions have direct damage invulnerabilities/evade spam. The upside to Elixir S over other direct damage invulnerabilities is that the Engi can't be hit by conditions and gets free stomps. The downside is the inability to do anything but stomp or dodge, which means dying to conditions already applied.

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Engi/Holo has hugely telegraphed attacks with bright animations. Once you've played against just a few, it's much easier to see the best times to dodge and block.Personally I don't even have an engineer character but would say that any time I've been beaten by one, I've clearly been outplayed or made simple errors. In my opinion, there is nothing ridiculously OP about the profession, it certainly puts out great damage but mostly it seems to come in bursts. If you dodge or use stab for stun mitigation, block or evade high damage burst and be patient, you're more likely to successfully grapple with this class and have a good chance to defeat your opponent. Having the mindset that you can outburst Holo while also facetanking their highest damage skills while on a low healthpool thief will more likely lead to failure.

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@MarshallLaw.9260 said:Engi/Holo has hugely telegraphed attacks with bright animations. Once you've played against just a few, it's much easier to see the best times to dodge and block.Personally I don't even have an engineer character but would say that any time I've been beaten by one, I've clearly been outplayed or made simple errors. In my opinion, there is nothing ridiculously OP about the profession, it certainly puts out great damage but mostly it seems to come in bursts. If you dodge or use stab for stun mitigation, block or evade high damage burst and be patient, you're more likely to successfully grapple with this class and have a good chance to defeat your opponent. Having the mindset that you can outburst Holo while also facetanking their highest damage skills while on a low healthpool thief will more likely lead to failure.

I can recognize its abilities even in the tiniest of asura, that doesn't mean it's fine just because it's telegraphed. Every single photon ability is dodge-worthy and guess what, you can't dodge them all, especially when they can stealth on top of it.

Leap = dodge.Corona = unintuitive, double pulse, dodge twice? Stay away from holo except it has a really low cd and is also spammed off cd (6 seconds).Blitz = dodge.Shockwave = dodge.Minesweeper on top of you = dodge.Rifle 4 = dodge.Prime Light Beam = dodge.

If you don't dodge either of these, you just set yourself for a massive burst or you received anywhere from 6 to 8k damage, all of these in a short cd.

The biggest problem with holo IMO is the pbAoE stuff that prevents you from getting close to it without immediately blowing up: Corona Burst and Minesweeper are the main culprits. Basically you can only counterpressure from range, unless you are a spellbreaker.

Corona Burst needs to be looked at as it does too much. Six seconds cooldown, spammed off cd for easy might, stability (traited), pulsing damage, 300 range and vuln. For reference, 240 radius equals to ele Ring of Fire. Yes, Corona somehow is WIDER than that.

For this ability I would:

  • Increase cooldown to 8 seconds from 6. Holo basically gets perma stab and might because of this ability.
  • Lower damage by 25% as its main purpose is NOT damage but boon / barrier application.
  • Lower radius to 240 from 300.

Minesweeper obviously needs to get looked at, no need to say why. You say dodge, I say engi dodges on top of you, making it instant, unreactable damage.

  • Add a 1 second arming time to the mines.
  • Make it so that this trait cannot be used while under the effects of elixir S.
  • Decrease damage by 10%.

These 2 ability changes alone would make holo bearable. Of course other classes need to equally be toned down, such as scourge, firebrand, mirage, spellbreaker and druid.

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@Razor.6392 said:

@"MarshallLaw.9260" said:Engi/Holo has hugely telegraphed attacks with bright animations. Once you've played against just a few, it's much easier to see the best times to dodge and block.Personally I don't even have an engineer character but would say that any time I've been beaten by one, I've clearly been outplayed or made simple errors. In my opinion, there is nothing ridiculously OP about the profession, it certainly puts out great damage but mostly it seems to come in bursts. If you dodge or use stab for stun mitigation, block or evade high damage burst and
be patient
, you're more likely to successfully grapple with this class and have a good chance to defeat your opponent. Having the mindset that you can outburst Holo while also facetanking their highest damage skills while on a low healthpool thief will more likely lead to failure.

I can recognize its abilities even in the tiniest of asura, that doesn't mean it's fine just because it's telegraphed. Every single photon ability is dodge-worthy and guess what, you can't dodge them all, especially when they can stealth on top of it.If you don't dodge either of these, you just set yourself for a massive burst or you received anywhere from 6 to 8k damage, all of these in a short cd.

With all due respect, you're describing a scenario where you are putting absolutely no pressure on the Holo and they are offloading everything onto you. Yes, there are limited dodges but you haven't taken into consideration using your own aegis and other blocks, invun, retal or stealth and blind. Not to mention, if you have prot then that 7-8k hit is reduced by 33%.

Of course other classes need to equally be toned down, such as scourge, firebrand, mirage, spellbreaker and druid.

So you are saying 6 out of 9 classes need to be nerfed? Surely the logical solution would be to buff 3 classes? Personally, I believe out of the remaining 3 only Rev needs to be reviewed since Thief is not considered to be "weak" currently and Ele could probably use some minor adjustments but on the whole is doing OK.

Edit - inb4 Ele players correct me that their class needs serious buffs - apologies I am not an Ele expert.

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@MarshallLaw.9260 said:

@MarshallLaw.9260 said:Engi/Holo has hugely telegraphed attacks with bright animations. Once you've played against just a few, it's much easier to see the best times to dodge and block.Personally I don't even have an engineer character but would say that any time I've been beaten by one, I've clearly been outplayed or made simple errors. In my opinion, there is nothing ridiculously OP about the profession, it certainly puts out great damage but mostly it seems to come in bursts. If you dodge or use stab for stun mitigation, block or evade high damage burst and
be patient
, you're more likely to successfully grapple with this class and have a good chance to defeat your opponent. Having the mindset that you can outburst Holo while also facetanking their highest damage skills while on a low healthpool thief will more likely lead to failure.

I can recognize its abilities even in the tiniest of asura, that doesn't mean it's fine just because it's telegraphed. Every single photon ability is dodge-worthy and guess what, you can't dodge them all, especially when they can stealth on top of it.If you don't dodge either of these, you just set yourself for a massive burst or you received anywhere from 6 to 8k damage, all of these in a short cd.

With all due respect, you're describing a scenario where you are putting absolutely no pressure on the Holo and they are offloading everything onto you. Yes, there are limited dodges but you haven't taken into consideration using your own aegis and other blocks, invun, retal or stealth and
blind
. Not to mention, if you have prot then that 7-8k hit is reduced by 33%.

Of course other classes need to equally be toned down, such as scourge, firebrand, mirage, spellbreaker and druid.

So you are saying 6 out of 9 classes need to be nerfed? Surely the logical solution would be to buff 3 classes? Personally, I believe out of the remaining 3 only Rev needs to be reviewed since Thief is not considered to be "weak" currently and Ele could probably use some minor adjustments but on the whole is doing OK.

Edit - inb4 Ele players correct me that their class needs serious buffs - apologies I am not an Ele expert.

Invulns are limited and blinds / aegis do nothing because a) holo can apply anywhere from 2 to 5 instances of damage in 1 hit and or b) they are running tools.

My class has no aegis anyway.

No, the logical solution is not to buff the other 3 classes because we're talking solely about PoF specs. If you buff renegade, weaver and deadeye then where do you leave berserker, reaper, tempest, herald, scrapper and dragonhunter? What about core specs that aren't s/d thief? Balancing goes beyond fine tuning every PoF spec to fit the ongoing power creep.

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@Razor.6392 said:My class has no aegis anyway.

Not all classes/builds were created with the ability to equally counter any other profession. Some match-ups you struggle with may be considerably easier for others and vice versa. Also bear in mind that not all encounters are 1v1, often you may be supported by someone who can supply the boons you lack.

Invulns are limited and blinds / aegis do nothing because a) holo can apply anywhere from 2 to 5 instances of damage in 1 hit and or b) they are running tools.

Some skills such as Well of Darkness can apply 5 instances of blind for 5 seconds - so fairly effective. There are skills which apply multiple aegis/block. Retaliation coupled with protection is arguably a great choice for these scenarios.

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@TheWolf.1602 said:@"MarshallLaw.9260" does protection lower the damage before or after the retaliation?

As far as I am aware, protection applied to you will lower direct damage taken by 33%. Retaliation applied to you will return damage back to source, and the amount returned is relative to the power stat on who provided the retaliation. So retaliation does nothing to mitigate damage taken and is not affected by protection. If you a running a high power build, retaliation on you will be more effective as any time somebody hit your retal, they will be hit back according to the following formula: 133 + (0.05 x Power) .More info here:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retaliation

It may not be the greatest source of damage but it is close to instant and will discourage attacks aimed at you.

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@emblack.3754 said:

@"Julius Seizure.4985" said:Thief main complaining about a 7k attack. Lol?

The thing is thief doesn't have the survivability of an engineer, with all the elixirs, neither the CCs and can't go 1,2,3,4,5 to chain 7k hits. In fact thief dps is quite low compared to the sheer healing power/tankiness most classes have.

LOL

There's so many thief builds that do exactly what you say they can't. Most recently I've been encountering S/P + Staff Daredevils that spend a ton of time in evade/block, high CC, and dish out a ton of damage. I've also noticed an increase in S/D thieves that dodge like crazy. To say that thieves don't have the survivability or DPS of engineers is ludicrous -- you're clearly doing it wrong. Try these:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_Marauder_S/Dhttps://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Hybrid_Pistolwhip

@Razor.6392 said:Here come the holo mains to defend their spec lmao.

5k dmg autoattacks6-8k dmg holo leap on a 2s cd TWO SECONDS!pulsing 5-6k corona + vent exhaust + minesweeper that basically means: get close to me for 1 second and you'll receive 20k damage.8k photon blitz.600 radius aoe CC holographic shockwave (largest aoe radius in the entire game btw).

Balanced guys. It's fine because you can dodge, reflect, immune, etc. Nevermind you need to dodge every single one of those abilities and you only get 2-3 dodges.

Super balanced actually.

I've been able to do 8k on grenade barrage bursts. Are they OP?

If so... why? It's been like that for ages and nobody's complained.

If not... why? You're throwing these numbers out without context. SPvP is about context, not just raw numbers.

Because right now, I see you QQ'ing about crit damage, where you assume the holo is doing 100% crits. Apply that to any power class (warrior, thief, etc) and of course the damage would seem insane. When any power class has a ton of crits, it's going to take anybody out QUICKLY. This is not a problem unique to holosmith.

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"Julius Seizure.4985" said:Thief main complaining about a 7k attack. Lol?

The thing is thief doesn't have the survivability of an engineer, with all the elixirs, neither the CCs and can't go 1,2,3,4,5 to chain 7k hits. In fact thief dps is quite low compared to the sheer healing power/tankiness most classes have.

LOL

There's so many thief builds that do exactly what you say they can't. Most recently I've been encountering S/P + Staff Daredevils that spend a ton of time in evade/block, high CC, and dish out a ton of damage. I've also noticed an increase in S/D thieves that dodge like crazy. To say that thieves don't have the survivability or DPS of engineers is ludicrous -- you're clearly doing it wrong. Try these:

@Razor.6392 said:Here come the holo mains to defend their spec lmao.

5k dmg autoattacks6-8k dmg holo leap on a 2s cd TWO SECONDS!pulsing 5-6k corona + vent exhaust + minesweeper that basically means: get close to me for 1 second and you'll receive 20k damage.8k photon blitz.600 radius aoe CC holographic shockwave (largest aoe radius in the entire game btw).

Balanced guys. It's fine because you can dodge, reflect, immune, etc. Nevermind you need to dodge every single one of those abilities and you only get 2-3 dodges.

Super balanced actually.

I've been able to do 8k on grenade barrage bursts. Are they OP?

If so... why? It's been like that for ages and nobody's complained.

If not... why? You're throwing these numbers out without context. SPvP is about context, not just raw numbers.

Because right now, I see you QQ'ing about
crit damage
, where you assume the holo is doing 100% crits. Apply that to any power class (warrior, thief, etc) and of course the damage would seem insane. When any power class has a ton of crits, it's going to take anybody out QUICKLY. This is not a problem unique to holosmith.

Gotta love how everyone assumes holosmith runs 100% crit also no one has access to boons nor conditions apparently. Not all conditions are damaging.

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"Julius Seizure.4985" said:Thief main complaining about a 7k attack. Lol?

The thing is thief doesn't have the survivability of an engineer, with all the elixirs, neither the CCs and can't go 1,2,3,4,5 to chain 7k hits. In fact thief dps is quite low compared to the sheer healing power/tankiness most classes have.

LOL

There's so many thief builds that do exactly what you say they can't. Most recently I've been encountering S/P + Staff Daredevils that spend a ton of time in evade/block, high CC, and dish out a ton of damage. I've also noticed an increase in S/D thieves that dodge like crazy. To say that thieves don't have the survivability or DPS of engineers is ludicrous -- you're clearly doing it wrong. Try these:

@Razor.6392 said:Here come the holo mains to defend their spec lmao.

5k dmg autoattacks6-8k dmg holo leap on a 2s cd TWO SECONDS!pulsing 5-6k corona + vent exhaust + minesweeper that basically means: get close to me for 1 second and you'll receive 20k damage.8k photon blitz.600 radius aoe CC holographic shockwave (largest aoe radius in the entire game btw).

Balanced guys. It's fine because you can dodge, reflect, immune, etc. Nevermind you need to dodge every single one of those abilities and you only get 2-3 dodges.

Super balanced actually.

I've been able to do 8k on grenade barrage bursts. Are they OP?

If so... why? It's been like that for ages and nobody's complained.

If not... why? You're throwing these numbers out without context. SPvP is about context, not just raw numbers.

Because right now, I see you QQ'ing about
crit damage
, where you assume the holo is doing 100% crits. Apply that to any power class (warrior, thief, etc) and of course the damage would seem insane. When any power class has a ton of crits, it's going to take anybody out QUICKLY. This is not a problem unique to holosmith.
  1. Thief has no stability.
  2. Thief has no pulsing 300 radius aoe on top of his regular abilities.
  3. Thief has 10k base health.
  4. Thief will not hard CC you as much as an engineer. (PLB, rifle 4, shockwave).

The counters are there for those 1 trick pony thief builds. Not so much for holosmith.

Does grenade barrage have 2 seconds cooldown? (holo leap comparison)

Does grenade barrage autotriggers around you for 5k (corona), 3k (vent) and 3-7k (instant dodge on top from minesweeper)?

I really cannot understand why would anyone defend holosmith in its current state. Nobody is asking for them to be deleted dude, I'm sure you'll be able to enjoy them once their damage becomes a little more fair.

Corona needs nerfs, as well as minesweeper.

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@Razor.6392 said:

@"Julius Seizure.4985" said:Thief main complaining about a 7k attack. Lol?

The thing is thief doesn't have the survivability of an engineer, with all the elixirs, neither the CCs and can't go 1,2,3,4,5 to chain 7k hits. In fact thief dps is quite low compared to the sheer healing power/tankiness most classes have.

LOL

There's so many thief builds that do exactly what you say they can't. Most recently I've been encountering S/P + Staff Daredevils that spend a ton of time in evade/block, high CC, and dish out a ton of damage. I've also noticed an increase in S/D thieves that dodge like crazy. To say that thieves don't have the survivability or DPS of engineers is ludicrous -- you're clearly doing it wrong. Try these:

@Razor.6392 said:Here come the holo mains to defend their spec lmao.

5k dmg autoattacks6-8k dmg holo leap on a 2s cd TWO SECONDS!pulsing 5-6k corona + vent exhaust + minesweeper that basically means: get close to me for 1 second and you'll receive 20k damage.8k photon blitz.600 radius aoe CC holographic shockwave (largest aoe radius in the entire game btw).

Balanced guys. It's fine because you can dodge, reflect, immune, etc. Nevermind you need to dodge every single one of those abilities and you only get 2-3 dodges.

Super balanced actually.

I've been able to do 8k on grenade barrage bursts. Are they OP?

If so... why? It's been like that for ages and nobody's complained.

If not... why? You're throwing these numbers out without context. SPvP is about context, not just raw numbers.

Because right now, I see you QQ'ing about
crit damage
, where you assume the holo is doing 100% crits. Apply that to any power class (warrior, thief, etc) and of course the damage would seem insane. When any power class has a ton of crits, it's going to take anybody out QUICKLY. This is not a problem unique to holosmith.
  1. Thief has no stability.
  2. Thief has no pulsing 300 radius aoe on top of his regular abilities.
  3. Thief has 10k base health.
  4. Thief will not hard CC you as much as an engineer. (PLB, rifle 4, shockwave).

The counters are there for those 1 trick pony thief builds. Not so much for holosmith.

Does grenade barrage have 2 seconds cooldown? (holo leap comparison)

Does grenade barrage autotriggers around you for 5k (corona), 3k (vent) and 3-7k (instant dodge on top from minesweeper)?

I really cannot understand why would anyone defend holosmith in its current state. Nobody is asking for them to be deleted dude, I'm sure you'll be able to enjoy them once their damage becomes a little more fair.

Corona needs nerfs, as well as minesweeper.
  1. Thief generally shouldn't need stability with those builds. They have a ton of built-in dodge and stunbreaks.
  2. Do you mean Corona Burst? That's not pulsing damage, that's 2 hits, one of which is delayed. Thief has something similar... called pulmonary impact.
  3. And guardian has about the same as well, yet it seems to be tanky when played right or specced appropriately. Strange how that works. Thief is also very tanky when played well or specced appropriately.
  4. Hahahahahahaha, oh I beg to disagree. It's even spammable!
  5. Those "1-trick-pony" builds are actually very old builds. The S/D thief is entirely core, and the staff daredevil build has existed as long as HoT. If they were one trick ponies, you'd think they'd be gone by now.

So, your answer to my question is "No, it's not overpowered." To which my response it is... like everything in PvP... context dependent. Also, stop throwing out 100% crit + max might numbers as though it makes your argument convincing. It really doesn't convince anybody. It's hyperbolic. Let's look at some actual numbers, hrmm?

  • Grenade Barrage: 6 x 160 (0.6) (assuming all 6 hits land)
  • Shrapnel Grenade: 3 x 224 (0.63) (assuming all 3 land)
  • Holo Leap: 704 (1.8)
  • Corona Burst: 2 x 469 (1.2) (assuming both hits land)
  • Vent: 292 (1.1) + 6s of burning
  • Minesweeper: 3 x 266 (1.0) (assuming all 3 hit)

Looking at these numbers, the only things that might stand out are actually corona burst and holo leap, which have moderately high coefficients. But let's get some power builds from comparable classes for comparison (since power engi isn't a thing in PvP at the moment besides holo).

  • Vault (Thief): 908 (2.25)
  • Whirlwind Attack (Warrior): 4 x 268 (0.665) (assuming all 4 land)
  • Rush (Warrior): 686 (1.7)
  • Pistol Whip (Thief): 136 (0.37) + 1,160 (3.16) (assuming all 4 land)
  • Full Counter (untraited, Warrior): 532 (2.0)
  • Larcenous Strike (Thief): 587 (1.6)
  • Pulmonary Impact (Thief): 872 (3.28)

Now that we have a basis for comparison, you may notice that core power engi skills are actually extremely weak (low coefficients, low base number), and holosmith skills are on par with warrior and thief skills. In fact, core warrior and thief skills have much better coefficients (and often more utility) than holosmith skills do. They also don't have the heat limitation. That's very interesting! It's almost as if there's a tradeoff, and you're greatly exaggerating numbers instead of focusing on counterplay.

P.S. I'd prefer if minesweeper's damage was dependent on the engineer's health (IE, higher health = lower damage, and low health = higher damage). This would bring it in line with what I think is ANet's design (as a deterrent to enemies when engineer is low on health), and would prevent some of the more egregious abuse of the trait in favor of a more impactful choice.

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