Raid sellers

Please ban them from the LFG! It's annoying to see 3-5 raid selling groups always up, if not a whole selection. They aren't LFG.. they want to sell raid wins.. give them their own tab or get rid of them.

and this also discourages novices from trying do raids.

Raid selling is allowed by Anet.

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Raid selling is allowed by Anet.

Nobody here said or implied that it was, jumped the gun?

It's just stupid that raid sellers have no own section for their business and Anet allows them to use the common raid LFG for it.

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Raid selling is allowed by Anet.

This is very old discussion having its origins in 2012 when dungeon selling begun. It's unlikely to change.

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Raid selling is allowed by Anet.

By they are not looking for a group to do the raidThey are selling runs for ppl who don't want to raid :)

Looking for group =/= billboard for advertisement

@JVJD.4912 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Raid selling is allowed by Anet.

LFM they usually advertising at. They are looking for customer under raid to sell raid to xDI just ignore them.. I don't find it annoying.

@JVJD.4912 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Raid selling is allowed by Anet.

Same arguments were used when dungeon selling was on the board. Nothing changed.

Having their own tab.. now that is a good idea.

My opinion is that they should be taken down if they’re not selling a spot at that time. If they’re just advertising their service, where you’d have to schedule a future date, then I’d say that doesn’t belong. An example would be that one that posts a URL.

To be fair, the entire LFG interface could use an overhaul. There are too many PvE sections, to many different "here to help" categories, not enough Raid sections, and the less-useful sort of Fractal designations.

Raid groups that have a group formed and that are ready to immediately sell someone a place and start raiding should obviously be allowed and have every right to be in the raid section. There's no question about that.

But I agree that some people tend to use the lfg raid section as a platform to advertise raids, rather then directly form a group and sell them. The LFG tool is not a trading post or trade chat.

But if they would be not allowed (some dev would have to make sure a system is in place to kick/ban specific group listings), they would've to advertise in map chat, which would also annoy people.

A dedicated tab in the LFG would be the best option, but realizing that Anet does not want to appear to promote this behavior of selling group slots for 500+ gold for a single run, in this "friendly", "helpful", "casual", "open" community, this will never happen.

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Raid selling is allowed by Anet.

No it's not ... I don't get that logic. WHY do they need their own section? I can't think of a more appropriate place for them.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Raid selling is allowed by Anet.

Well, because they sell a service, they are not really looking for a group, they already have their group. Or in many cases, if you actually join the squad, there is nobody on, they just have an afk account on to tell you the prices in a squad message. You cannot join any of the raid selling squads and expect to pay for and get the service immediately. If you join any other group in the whole LFG section, you expect to get into a group and play, that's what it was created for. To allow people to find any play with eatchother. If you then really want to buy a raid kill, the LFG is not even used for that. Once you whispered the account, made the connection, nobody will ever use the LFG again. You'll probably get a few dates and times to pick and then get invited, outside the LFG. There is not even a payment feature in this game for services. You senbd the gold to them and hope they deliver, or use some middle man. I'm absolutely certain this is not how Anet wants it, but they cannot be bothered to add a Services tab, maybe one that also allows payments.

That is certainly not what the LFG was created and meant for, it is only used that way because the game has no Services tab.

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Raid selling is allowed by Anet.

They are selling a spot in a group. That's how every instance selling activity is justified and understood by anet and that's why they allow it :)

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:They are selling a spot in a group. That's how every instance selling activity is justified and understood by anet and that's why they allow it :)

Not trying to be a dick here, but has an Anet official at some point said that and can you maybe find the quote?

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:They are selling a spot in a group. That's how every instance selling activity is justified and understood by anet and that's why they allow it :)

It was in old forums during dungeon selling golden age. Good luck finding it.

On 5 February 2015, Gaile Gray wroteThe LFG (Looking for Group) Tool is intended to be used to help put together a group to enjoy game content, such as Open World, Fractals of the Mists, or PvP. Over the last several weeks players have expressed increased concern about abuse of the LFG Tool as a growing number of individuals have begun using the LFG Tool to advertise the sale of in-game items.

Clearly, if a group-formation tool is flooded with item sales and trade messages, it will be difficult for players to use it for its intended purpose. Beyond that, trades and sales initiated in the tool are at high risk for scams. While our Customer Support Team will take action on the accounts of players who engage in scams and other disallowed activities, they generally will not be able to replace items of players who fall victim to these unscrupulous individuals.

Our policy: Players may use the LFG Tool only for the formation of a group.

Players may use the tool to sell a spot in a group, but they may not use it to sell or trade items or for any other unintended purposes. Doing so will result in an account infraction.

You can help us reduce the spam and refocus the tool by reporting individuals who are misusing the LFG Tool. Simply click on the name of that player in your chat window, right click, choose “Report,” and then choose “LFG System Abuse.” With your help we’ll be able to keep the LFG Tool clear for your use in forming groups.

Emphasis added.

What we really need is an overhaul of the LFG feature to allow the user to set a filter for things they don't want to see:

For example:1) Filter out any LFG entry with the word "sell" in it.2) Filter out any language that you do not speak.

@boolah.1325 said:Please ban them from the LFG! It's annoying to see 3-5 raid selling groups always up, if not a whole selection. They aren't LFG.. they want to sell raid wins.. give them their own tab or get rid of them.

Stick tape on your screen. jk

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

On 5 February 2015, Gaile Gray wrote

The LFG (Looking for Group) Tool is intended to be used to help put together a group to enjoy game content, such as Open World, Fractals of the Mists, or PvP. Over the last several weeks players have expressed increased concern about abuse of the LFG Tool as a growing number of individuals have begun using the LFG Tool to advertise the sale of in-game items.

Clearly, if a group-formation tool is flooded with item sales and trade messages, it will be difficult for players to use it for its intended purpose. Beyond that, trades and sales initiated in the tool are at high risk for scams. While our Customer Support Team will take action on the accounts of players who engage in scams and other disallowed activities, they generally will not be able to replace items of players who fall victim to these unscrupulous individuals.

Our policy: Players may use the LFG Tool only for the formation of a group.

Players may use the tool to sell a spot in a group,

but they may not use it to sell or trade items or for any other unintended purposes. Doing so will result in an account infraction.

You can help us reduce the spam and refocus the tool by reporting individuals who are misusing the LFG Tool. Simply click on the name of that player in your chat window, right click, choose “Report,” and then choose “LFG System Abuse.” With your help we’ll be able to keep the LFG Tool clear for your use in forming groups.

They don't tell in that quote why they decided to allow it. Only that they allow it, which is not questioned in this thread. I find it interesting though that their policy is that the LFG tool is "only for the formation of a group.", but when you join a raid sell group, you are not joining any group to do a raid. You just get the info about prices and how to proceed if you are interested in buying a raid. Then you leave again, there is no "formation of a group" at all ^^

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:They don't tell in that quote why they decided to allow it. Only that they allow it, which is not questioned in this thread. I find it interesting though that their policy is that the LFG tool is "only for the formation of a group.", but when you join a raid sell group, you are not joining any group to do a raid. You just get the info about prices and how to proceed if you are interested in buying a raid. Then you leave again, there is no "formation of a group" at all ^^

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:They are selling a spot in a group. That's how every instance selling activity is justified and understood by anet and that's why they allow it :)

It sounds exactly like you were questioning whether selling was allowed at all in the first place. (I apologize for misunderstanding.)

But besides that, what is the distinction you are trying to make? So what if the sellers aren't going to take you right this minute? Would it be alright with you if it takes 5 minutes to finish forming? That's pretty normal as folks swap toons and gear for the situation. How about taking 10 minutes? 30 minutes? What about saying, "we all agree to play with each other tomorrow at 8 pm?"

At what point exactly does a legitimate LFG become disallowed because of timing?

tl;dr if raid selling is allowed, what's the important difference that makes what we see in LFG these days a violation?

More importantly: the issue for most people is that raid selling advertisements currently overwhelm the screen real estate. That's an issue that is much, much, much, much more easily addressed by adjusting the LFG categories than by requiring real time monitoring of the LFG tool.

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

But besides that, what is the distinction you are trying to make? So what if the sellers aren't going to take you right this minute? Would it be alright with you if it takes 5 minutes to finish forming? That's pretty normal as folks swap toons and gear for the situation. How about taking 10 minutes? 30 minutes? What about saying, "we all agree to play with each other tomorrow at 8 pm?"

At what point exactly does a legitimate LFG become disallowed because of timing?

To me, that distinction is when the group that you see listed in LFG is the group that will be soon running the raid. Not when the LFG posting is something like "Whisper [player name] for more info" or "go to XYZ.com to see our schedule and sign up".

For a bad metaphor, it's like you're driving down the highway and see a guy standing on the side holding a sign saying "Come with me for an adventure" vs. just a giant billboard with "Take next right for visitor center to find info on prepaid tours". Sure you might get murdered (repeatedly) by joining the random guy for an adventure, but that's an actual person with whom you'll be jumping into something with, while the billboard is just an un-interactive sign directing you towards more information.

LFG should be for getting murdered repea.... ahem.. for going on immediate adventures with other players. Advertising a product or service, especially by sending you to someplace outside the game, should be outside the scope of the Looking For Group tool.

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:More importantly: the issue for most people is that raid selling advertisements currently overwhelm the screen real estate. That's an issue that is much, much, much, much more easily addressed by adjusting the LFG categories than by requiring real time monitoring of the LFG tool.

I think that is all what people ask for. A category for raid sellers, so if you are not interested in buying a raid, you are not spammed with offers. And I don't think anyone would have a problem with it being somewhere in the LFG window.

I mean seriously, how many people actually buy raids? I have no clue but I would bet that all those alliances together sell not even one raid per day. And for that everybody who's interested in finding a group is spammed by their ads. There are even guilds that have several ads up at the same time, by different afk accounts, that look slightly different. It's quite possible that there are only 2 or 3 guilds in this whole game that sell raids, but you see 12 different offers and think they are all different guilds ^^

This was the raid LFG a few minutes ago. Doesn't look that spammed to be honest, maybe it's different on weekends.

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

On 5 February 2015, Gaile Gray wrote

The LFG (Looking for Group) Tool is intended to be used to help put together a group to enjoy game content, such as Open World, Fractals of the Mists, or PvP. Over the last several weeks players have expressed increased concern about abuse of the LFG Tool as a growing number of individuals have begun using the LFG Tool to advertise the sale of in-game items.

Clearly, if a group-formation tool is flooded with item sales and trade messages, it will be difficult for players to use it for its intended purpose. Beyond that, trades and sales initiated in the tool are at high risk for scams. While our Customer Support Team will take action on the accounts of players who engage in scams and other disallowed activities, they generally will not be able to replace items of players who fall victim to these unscrupulous individuals.

Our policy: Players may use the LFG Tool only for the formation of a group.

Players may use the tool to sell a spot in a group,

but they may not use it to sell or trade items or for any other unintended purposes. Doing so will result in an account infraction.

You can help us reduce the spam and refocus the tool by reporting individuals who are misusing the LFG Tool. Simply click on the name of that player in your chat window, right click, choose “Report,” and then choose “LFG System Abuse.” With your help we’ll be able to keep the LFG Tool clear for your use in forming groups.

This is the primary issue.

If you could join the group, pay your money and move on... Then it would make sense to have them in the same location.

However, if you cannot join that group and play right away, then this is a clear LFG abuse.

It's not a group looking for more to raid. It's 9 guys looking for a sucker to empty thier wallets.

So, while I'm against rules that limit free exchange between consenting adults... I dislike seeing the only groups in the list as 'selling raids'.

It seems that a services tab, with filters, and a window to let a- net middleman the transaction.

Maybe we'd see a rise of people offering services, and competitive pricing. That's generally what happens in free marketplaces.

The best part? No LFG infection. Massive QoL for everyone using LFG. And lazy people who make too much money. Win all around.