Phantasmal Force

So, I was really enthusiastic about the new Grand Master trait, Phantasmal Force. It seemed to make a phantasm build potentially viable. After some disappointing failures I went to a brief test on a target golem in HoTM. This test is by no means conclusive or comprehensive. It was intended to get a brief impression.

I used the Torch Phantasm and compared it's damage with 25 stacks of phantasmal force against the same Phantasm with Phantasmal Force not traited. Note that 25 stacks of Phantasmal Force represents an optimum situation that won't occur often in pvp.

Untraited, the damage averaged 428.83 ( rounding to the nearest 1/100 ) with a minimum of 305 and a maximum of 479.

Traited and with maximum stacks, the damage averaged 531.12 with a minimum of 466 and a maximum of 605.

So, in a situation optimized for Phantasmal Force and with maximum stacks: The untraited Phantasm actually did better damage in one instance, ( During the window I randomly chose to note. ) The differences in average damage amounted to 102.89 points.

That is too low for a grandmaster trait,in a situation that was set up to unrealistically favor Phantasmal Force. In actual play, the difference is likely to be non existent because 25 stacks of Phantasmal Force is going to happen quite seldom.

I think I need to call this as a non working trait.

It's "not working" because you chose a Phantasm with low Power damage to test in PvP for a trait aimed at PvE? Even if its performance is underwhelming (in PvP), it still works as intended, which is a 25% damage buff.

428 * 1.25 = 535. That equates to roughly 531, which is exactly the expected outcome. I don't know what else you're looking for out of a trait that states 1% damage per stack, 25 max stacks.

It doesn't provide enough damage to qualify for a grand master trait. Recall that this was under optimum conditions, with an unresisting target. I created a situation that was unreasonably favorable to Phantasmal Force and it still underperformed. It's damage dipped below that of untraited phantasms. 25 stacks of Phantasmal force will seldom , if ever, be obtained in a real pvp encounter.

Hence I consider this a non working ( (viz) unusable ) trait. It might qualify as a minor trait.

That's where you're wrong. Your "optimum conditions" were with the weakest Phantasm in the game. In PvP, Illusions don't survive. Yes, that is a known and something you need to work with, not against. Outside of PvP (keeping in mind this is an MMO with more than just PvP encounters), this trait provides a large source of increased damage in sustained fights.

Phantasmal Force quite literally makes (PvE) Power Mesmer. It contributes to roughly 11% of the total damage output of a Power Mesmer, which is a huge percentage of damage. On a Condi Mesmer, it hits roughly 3% of your total damage, but that's still quite a large increase for a power trait.

Which Phantasm I used is a non issue. The trait is allegedly effective for all Phantasms. Therefore, the increase should be proportional in all cases. That's just sophistry. I would also point out that the non traited Phantasm actually outperformed the traited one ( with 25 stacks of Phantasmal Force) at times.

OK I'll modify my statement: This trait is too weak for a grand master trait and is not worth considering for PvP or WvW usage.

@Ithilwen.1529 said:Which Phantasm I used is a non issue. The trait is allegedly effective for all Phantasms. Therefore, the increase should be proportional in all cases.

@Esplen.3940 said:428 * 1.25 = 535. That equates to roughly 531, which is exactly the expected outcome. I don't know what else you're looking for out of a trait that states 1% damage per stack, 25 max stacks.

If you're upset that the low end of the damage spectrum compared to the high end of another damage spectrum overlapped, then... good luck? If you want some math behind that:The mage has a weapon strength range of 2459-2772, with the midpoint being 2615.5.The coefficient of damage from the attack and Power of the Phantasm are negligible as they will be divided out across both sides.

Power Coefficient Weapon Strength / Target Armor = Damage.Since the Power, Coefficient, and Target Armor will be the same across both tests, they can be removed via Algebra.Thus we're left with Weapon Strength.

From the high end of the spectrum, untraited: 2772From the low end of the spectrum, traited: 2459 * 1.25 = 3073.75

As such, a fully stacked Phantasm should always be hitting harder than an untraited Phantasm. I don't know exactly how you tested and can't verify how in-depth they were or if you accidentally pulled a number from a not fully stacked Phantasm (note: the Phantasm stacks AFTER the attack connects).

@Ithilwen.1529 said:It doesn't provide enough damage to qualify for a grand master trait. Recall that this was under optimum conditions, with an unresisting target. I created a situation that was unreasonably favorable to Phantasmal Force and it still underperformed. It's damage dipped below that of untraited phantasms. 25 stacks of Phantasmal force will seldom , if ever, be obtained in a real pvp encounter.

Hence I consider this a non working ( (viz) unusable ) trait. It might qualify as a minor trait.

I have to disagree on it not providing enough damage to qualify for a GM trait. Remember, that it can potentially affect 3 phantasms at once, making it a huge damage boost. But its also not GM worthy in its current iteration because it doesn't provide this bonus damage _fast _enough, nor is it persistent across shatters (though tbf this is really only an issue when you are taking CP). Increasing the rate at which it hits max stacks on phantasms is a good debate to have. On the old forums I posted a thread about moving PF to be an effect on the mesmer himself (though still only affecting illusions' damage), so that during a fight you only have to build it up once, but it would affect all of your phantasms as soon as they are summoned. I believe this is a much healthier way to go with this trait.

Weren't GM traits intended to be gameplay-altering? Never said "Deals tons of damage or isn't a GM trait" anywhere.

Phantasmal Force changes how you want to play. The continued longevity of your set of phantasms becomes very important all of a sudden. Previously, losing a sword phantasm, assuming the CD is up to resummon it, was a minimal loss if any at all. You wouldn't mind. Now, you do mind.

Seems to be a fine GM trait as a result. IMO. Better than most others, tbh.

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:It doesn't provide enough damage to qualify for a grand master trait.

Recall that this was under optimum conditions, with an unresisting target. I created a situation that was unreasonably favorable to Phantasmal Force and it still underperformed. It's damage dipped below that of untraited phantasms.

25 stacks of Phantasmal force will seldom , if ever, be obtained in a real pvp encounter.

Hence I consider this a non working ( (viz) unusable ) trait. It might qualify as a minor trait.

That's not a bad idea at all. I agree.

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:It doesn't provide enough damage to qualify for a grand master trait.

Recall that this was under optimum conditions, with an unresisting target. I created a situation that was unreasonably favorable to Phantasmal Force and it still underperformed. It's damage dipped below that of untraited phantasms.

25 stacks of Phantasmal force will seldom , if ever, be obtained in a real pvp encounter.

Hence I consider this a non working ( (viz) unusable ) trait. It might qualify as a minor trait.

I still absolutely love this suggestion Ori, and don't think I'll ever not love it.

with the upcoming expansion i had an idea of letting it effect all illusions (clones too), immediately ; ur illusion have increassed power and have a chance to inflict burning on ciritcal hits. Power +500 , chance 50%.This way even ur first clone has Dmg, not a lot, but noteiceable. Phantasms would be improved, and condi mesmer has another grandmaster to choose.

@Carighan.6758

@Carighan.6758 said:Weren't GM traits intended to be gameplay-altering? Never said "Deals tons of damage or isn't a GM trait" anywhere.

Phantasmal Force changes how you want to play. The continued longevity of your set of phantasms becomes very important all of a sudden. Previously, losing a sword phantasm, assuming the CD is up to resummon it, was a minimal loss if any at all. You wouldn't mind. Now, you do mind.

Seems to be a fine GM trait as a result. IMO. Better than most others, tbh.

You bring up a good point, and an argument I have used several times myself (a GM should change "how" you play, not just be a huge damage boost). And I agree that taking PF does change how you play as a mesmer, so superficially it fits as a GM trait. However, look a little deeper at PF. It encourages you to keep your phantasms up for prolonged periods of time in order to increase their damage. In order to do this, it makes us ignore our shatters, since shattering phantasms removes PF and negates the buildup you had. So not only do we face the same penalty we always face when shattering for our sustained DPS, that punishment is now made worse. So, in order to encourage this alternate playstyle, this GM currently requires us to ignore our shatter skills. I don't think this is a healthy way to change how you play. Contrast this with holosmith GM traits (which, imo, are some of the best designed in the game).

In order for PF to be a healthy change to your playstyle (instead of currently where it just punishes you extra for using your F skills), it should really make phantasms unable to be shattered (along with an appropriate increase in its effectiveness to account for gimped shatters). This changes how you play because you are actively hurting the effectiveness of your shatters in order to increase the damage of your phantasms over time. But it still allows you to use your shatters without being punished by losing your buffed up phantasms. So if you want to go this route, of changing how you play the game, PF should be updated to make phantasms unable to be shattered, and then subsequently increase the damage boost (say 1.5% damage per stack?)

Oh....my...imagine if you traited so that phantasms couldn’t be shattered BUT cause the shatter effect to nearby foes, that would be so amazing!!

They can also have it so that if you switched weapons and summoned a phantasm from there then it would get rid of one of your 3 duelists or whatever you have out.

It’s just a great idea in my opinion for those who don’t like shattering and would rather rely on phantasms.

@Tseison.4659 said:Oh....my...imagine if you traited so that phantasms couldn’t be shattered BUT cause the shatter effect to nearby foes, that would be so amazing!!So just spam shatters off cd without any repercussion? What could go wrong

@Esplen.3940 said:

@Tseison.4659 said:Oh....my...imagine if you traited so that phantasms couldn’t be shattered BUT cause the shatter effect to nearby foes, that would be so amazing!!So just spam shatters off cd without any repercussion? What could go wrong

Phantasms won’t be shattered but will still die when the target dies or when you retarget. But it was just a thought. Not like it’s going to happen anyways. It’s not like anet takes any ideas to account so...

They won’t even get rid of the mirage mirrors because oh you know, a fellow employee came up with it so - it needs to stay...

@Tseison.4659 said:Phantasms won’t be shattered but will still die when the target dies or when you retarget. But it was just a thought. Not like it’s going to happen anyways. It’s not like anet takes any ideas to account so...

They won’t even get rid of the mirage mirrors because oh you know, a fellow employee came up with it so - it needs to stay...

Oh they take ideas into account, they just ignore the Mesmer community until wayyy after the fact.

This is simply not a viable PvP trait.

The reason is simple as you can't really keep phantasms alive to get enough benefit out of it.

Even if you keep the phantasm alive to do 3 attacks, you will only get 12% more damage on them. We already have a minor trait in domination which increases illusion damage by 15%. So even in unrealistic situations, it will be worse than a minor trait.

Maybe one day, Devs will give us better ways to keep illusions alive. But until then, this is not a GM trait worth taking in PvP.

@Exciton.8942 said:This is simply not a viable PvP trait.

The reason is simple as you can't really keep phantasms alive to get enough benefit out of it.

Even if you keep the phantasm alive to do 3 attacks, you will only get 12% more damage on them. We already have a minor trait in domination which increases illusion damage by 15%. So even in unrealistic situations, it will be worse than a minor trait.

Maybe one day, Devs will give us better ways to keep illusions alive. But until then, this is not a GM trait worth taking in PvP.

Not all traits have to be viable in PvP. Just like how Mirage is not viable in PvE (as are many Core Mes traits).

Not all traits are viable in PvP. Not all traits are viable in PvE. Not all traits are viable in WvW.

This trait is really strong in PvE where Phantasms can keep attacking and attacking that they stack up fast and they don't die.

Correction - This trait is really strong in Raids, where you have a single target with a large enough health pool for your phantasm's PF stacks to actually stack up, and you don't have to worry about retargetting to a new mob and losing that progress. In general PvE, its not that great, because stuff dies too quickly.

@OriOri.8724 said:Correction - This trait is really strong in Raids, where you have a single target with a large enough health pool for your phantasm's PF stacks to actually stack up, and you don't have to worry about retargetting to a new mob and losing that progress. In general PvE, its not that great, because stuff dies too quickly.

For open world it's strong against things with difficulty higher than:

• Veteran in solo.
• Elite in casual party.
• Champion in group/meta.

Even as a solo mesmer, elites don't last long enough for PF to build up to anything meaningful. And in events that scale so highly that champs take a while to burn down by the group, there isn't just a single mob there, so PF is still lacking.