Thief need a REWORK like memser — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Thief need a REWORK like memser

This will be the second rework for mesmer, but thief need one to for the past 5 years.

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  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:
    thief need one to

    I agree, especially for the "dodge system" and the initiative management. You'll have a hard time not to choose Trickery and Daredevil for what essentially boils down to two traits and an additional doge. Some of the utility skills are way too "pricey" (considering that in some cases you'll also going to need initiative to attack) and suffer from bad synergy overall. Also, some conditions for some traits are unnecessarily restrictive while other traits within the same category are way too similar to each other.

  • arenta.2953arenta.2953 Member ✭✭✭

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:
    This will be the second rework for mesmer, but thief need one to for the past 5 years.

    more specifically?

  • Tora.7214Tora.7214 Member ✭✭
    edited February 4, 2018

    imo thief needs something to bring to group content, lacking CDs is understandable why their overall dps has to be lowest than CD based professions, however they should bring something to group content so that people would actually like to have them on a group, most dps classes bring something unique to the overall party utility; SBs stances/druid healing, mesmer alacry, war banners, guardians on demand shield, engineer pin point, etc...

    i allready made earlier today a post voicing my opinion that the daredevil Grandmaster dodges should also grant their respective buffs to the daredevil party, that way they would no longer be a selfish class and could actually contribute with a unique boost to the group.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tora.7214 said:
    lacking CDs is understandable why their overall dps has to be lowest than CD based professions

    No it isn't, there is no reason why their overall DPS should be the lowest of all classes especially since they don't bring anything else to the table.

  • Tora.7214Tora.7214 Member ✭✭

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Tora.7214 said:
    lacking CDs is understandable why their overall dps has to be lowest than CD based professions

    No it isn't, there is no reason why their overall DPS should be the lowest of all classes especially since they don't bring anything else to the table.

    its an exchange of being able to use skills without CD, imagine if skills like hundreed blades or whirling wrath could be spamed as long as there is available resources.

    however yes, i do agree to because of this they should be able to bring something else to the table, thats why i mentioned that atleast they should make daredevil dodges grant their damage buffs not only to the daredevil, but to the ppl on their party too, good daredevils can keep their buff on at all times, so a permanent 10% in power/condi damage to the whole group would make them an welcome addition to any group content

  • will de grijze jager.6594will de grijze jager.6594 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2018

    I don't mind that the dps of a theif in a burst is really high sure let's have them that, but a thief shouldn't be extreem mobile. It is 1 of the other in a class not both. This is about pvp and wvw.

  • arenta.2953arenta.2953 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2018

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:
    I don't mind that the dps of a theif in a burst is really high sure let's have them that, but a thief shouldn't be extreem mobile. It is 1 of the other in a class not both. This is about pvp and wvw.

    its a glass cannon. designed to hit hard and run.

    if you want hit hard and no mobility. go warrior or necro.
    they gain 10k hp and alot of stability/extra hp bars (not to mention better heals) to compensate for the lack of mobility.

    Rev, Mesmer, elementalist, and Thief are the hit hard, and run classes. focusing on evasion mobility and hard hits

    Ranger, Necro, Warrior, and Guardian are the survival classes. designed to stick around for the long fight.
    guardian and ranger trading the high dmg for more utility.

    and engineer is everything you want. and stuff you dont

  • @arenta.2953 said:

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:
    I don't mind that the dps of a theif in a burst is really high sure let's have them that, but a thief shouldn't be extreem mobile. It is 1 of the other in a class not both. This is about pvp and wvw.

    its a glass cannon. designed to hit hard and run.

    if you want hit hard and no mobility. go warrior or necro.
    they gain 10k hp and alot of stability/extra hp bars (not to mention better heals) to compensate for the lack of mobility.

    Rev, Mesmer, elementalist, and Thief are the hit hard, and run classes. focusing on evasion mobility and hard hits

    Ranger, Necro, Warrior, and Guardian are the survival classes. designed to stick around for the long fight.
    guardian and ranger trading the high dmg for more utility.

    and engineer is everything you want. and stuff you dont

    i know but is is bad if you give a class so much mobility that no one can kill him. Like warrior they do mid dps but a mid mobility, that is a good disign for a class. rev high dps low mobilitys high survivel, but thief high dps high mobility and mid survivel(blocks dodges stealth enz.) you have the one of the other not both.

  • arenta.2953arenta.2953 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2018

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:

    @arenta.2953 said:

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:
    I don't mind that the dps of a theif in a burst is really high sure let's have them that, but a thief shouldn't be extreem mobile. It is 1 of the other in a class not both. This is about pvp and wvw.

    its a glass cannon. designed to hit hard and run.

    if you want hit hard and no mobility. go warrior or necro.
    they gain 10k hp and alot of stability/extra hp bars (not to mention better heals) to compensate for the lack of mobility.

    Rev, Mesmer, elementalist, and Thief are the hit hard, and run classes. focusing on evasion mobility and hard hits

    Ranger, Necro, Warrior, and Guardian are the survival classes. designed to stick around for the long fight.
    guardian and ranger trading the high dmg for more utility.

    and engineer is everything you want. and stuff you dont

    i know but is is bad if you give a class so much mobility that no one can kill him. Like warrior they do mid dps but a mid mobility, that is a good disign for a class. rev high dps low mobilitys high survivel, but thief high dps high mobility and mid survivel(blocks dodges stealth enz.) you have the one of the other not both.

    believe it or not, thief isn't alone in the "so much mobility that no one can kill him"

    but if he goes for that much mobility, his ability in combat will be alot weaker.

    Elementalist and Engineer both share that insane mobility

    Engineer with its jumps and super speeds

    elementalist with its teleport, mist form, and lunge.

    Mesmer on the other hand shares thief's stealth aspect (though mesmer has more hp and actual target breaks instead of less reliable, but longer lasting stealth)
    by using clones + target breaks. teleports. and mini stealths

    thief has access to alot of stealths yeah, but your going either fast movement, or stealth. using both can really hurt your combat ability. and going stealth route will leave you with little to no stunbreaks.


    to add to all this, thief's lack of stability again is notable. the only class with no usable form of stability (only stability is dagger storm, which locks out your other abilities while in progress, and doesn't prevent you from being crippled, immoblized, or frosted)

    ----------------


    now, to address your "Evades, blocks"

    right there, your refering to daredevil.

    not thief, not deadeye.

    daredevil is the evasion king, and is the only one with access to a block.

    so please be specific, otherwise you nerf thief but daredevil remains unaffected.

    and yeah, daredevil's mobility is the definition of insane (as in kitten as Anet thinking)
    so i can't argue there. but please be specific to the class.

  • believe it or not, thief isn't alone in the "so much mobility that no one can kill him"

    but if he goes for that much mobility, his ability in combat will be alot weaker.

    Elementalist and Engineer both share that insane mobility

    Engineer with its jumps and super speeds

    elementalist with its teleport, mist form, and lunge.

    Mesmer on the other hand shares thief's stealth aspect (though mesmer has more hp and actual target breaks instead of less reliable, but longer lasting stealth)
    by using clones + target breaks. teleports. and mini stealths

    thief has access to alot of stealths yeah, but your going either fast movement, or stealth. using both can really hurt your combat ability. and going stealth route will leave you with little to no stunbreaks.


    to add to all this, thief's lack of stability again is notable. the only class with no usable form of stability (only stability is dagger storm, which locks out your other abilities while in progress, and doesn't prevent you from being crippled, immoblized, or frosted)

    ----------------


    now, to address your "Evades, blocks"

    right there, your refering to daredevil.

    not thief, not deadeye.

    daredevil is the evasion king, and is the only one with access to a block.

    so please be specific, otherwise you nerf thief but daredevil remains unaffected.

    and yeah, daredevil's mobility is the definition of insane (as in kitten as Anet thinking)
    so i can't argue there. but please be specific to the class.

    sorry you are right, but the mobility is still to much on thief. i know that there are other classes with insane mobility but thief is the king of having insane mobility. The classes that you mentioned are killable even if they are good, but a really good thief is almost uncatchable. In my option you should be or high damage or mobile not both at the same time. If you have both then you should be mid damage and mid mobility. That would be good design.

  • i know i'm playing 5 years it is more to shut down the edge theif players who think they are so good becuase of the build that htey play and not the skills they have. introduc skill agian in wvw and pvp instead strong builds. There was a time that being skilled was 80% of the wvw and pvp mode now it is more like 50 50. see nerco, engi (dd(thief) to a extent, have seen dd that before hot never would have had a chance in a fight but now becuase of the build they did) no skills needed to be "good"

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2018

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:
    i know i'm playing 5 years it is more to shut down the edge theif players who think they are so good becuase of the build that htey play and not the skills they have. introduc skill agian in wvw and pvp instead strong builds. There was a time that being skilled was 80% of the wvw and pvp mode now it is more like 50 50. see nerco, engi (dd(thief) to a extent, have seen dd that before hot never would have had a chance in a fight but now becuase of the build they did) no skills needed to be "good"

    you mean the time like at the beginning when alot of people havent figured how to dodge in the game , were not able to tell apart the mesmer from his clones, didnt know what a stunbreak or a condi cleanse is - oh yeah there your knowledge would matter more.
    what exactly is it you consider skill here, i see this word thrown around alot but i still cant figure what you want the fight to be about. is skill for you the knowledge about the classes,their strengths , their weaknesses, the envoirment and putting them to use to gain an advantage or is it being able to react fast to an unforseen situation or avoiding such to begin with.
    most of the fights in WvW as a solo roamer will be 1 vs 3+ to even be able to win here you require your opponents to lack understanding the game mechanics as it should be impossible to stomp anyone against 3 or more players because of downedstate, but it happens regularly. in such fights its alot more important to have experience in fighting groups of noobs, know how they will work together or not and especially how to split them. most people you will see in WvW no matter you class wont stand a chance anyway in a 1 on 1 , because they are too easy to predict to outplay or lack understanding of basic mechanics. with thief it is just easier to split people to get them one by one.
    granted thief has propably the best escape potential and is therefor able to survive any build while he also has in theory the potential damage to kill any build. but an experienced player should be able to kill and at the least survive thieves that as you claim got no skill but just run a strong build with ease. aside from that i see alot more mesmers, spellbreakers, holos and scourges even more guardians then thieves while roaming , if they were really this strong without skill requirement why would people with clear lack of understanding basic mechanics choose so weak and hard to play classes like scourge then over thief.

    edit: one more thing i missed, would be really nice if you were more specific in what is too strong, giving us specific trait and skill combinations that you think should be toned down etc. 'high mobility and high damage' is just too vague as there are many builds out there.

  • you know that it is never 1 skill that kills someone(not counting deadeye 1 shot built even that use more then 1 ability) to be able to deal over 18 k in 1 second is not fun to play agianst especially if they use stealth first and you don't see it coming that is no skill that is bad design. second even before hot 3 years in the game it was even more 60 % skill 40% build and most people know what they were doing. i'm not even going to call out the skills look on meta battle and see for yourself that is 1 of the versions of the normal thief(daredevil) builds. discleamer this is not only for thief this if for all classes that can do 1 shot combo's. For example on engi the combo that has like 8 attacks in it and if 1 hits you most likely a gonner. It's not fun to play and play against.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2018

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:
    you know that it is never 1 skill that kills someone(not counting deadeye 1 shot built even that use more then 1 ability) to be able to deal over 18 k in 1 second is not fun to play agianst especially if they use stealth first and you don't see it coming that is no skill that is bad design. second even before hot 3 years in the game it was even more 60 % skill 40% build and most people know what they were doing. i'm not even going to call out the skills look on meta battle and see for yourself that is 1 of the versions of the normal thief(daredevil) builds. discleamer this is not only for thief this if for all classes that can do 1 shot combo's. For example on engi the combo that has like 8 attacks in it and if 1 hits you most likely a gonner. It's not fun to play and play against.

    you are still not really specific and i kinda start to like your funny % telling how much it is build and how much skill is requiered. you are right in one thing after june 2015 patch, the quality of players dropped more and more as many people quit or took breaks. so making it more skill based now will make experienced players stand out even more.
    how many noobs should an experienced player be able to deal with? if it was 100% about skill and not a bit about build or setup, then a perfect player could face an unlimited amount of noobs wich would create a very unhealthy game for the majority in that case, the noobs.
    how will a greater impact of knowledge to the outcome of a fight actually make your opponents more knowledgable, it will just make them lose more often. if you are more experienced and do know more about game mechanics and average player behaviour in gw2, you already should win mostly , because that is the only thing you need. i for instance would consider my self rather good in theroy but altho i am terrible in execution of it and still make way too many mistakes(infact soo many altho i record all the time all of my videos are not listed as i am too ashamed of the numbers of mistakes i made) i still win most of my encounters. and you cant tell me its my build doing..i usually dont play meta builds not my current deadeye build aswell as my daredevil build are both not meta.
    and you still didnt tell me what is skill to you. ok attack from stealth you say is no skill, how long stealth, how was it entered /stacked or generally as soon as you enter stealth all your skill is gone?

  • will de grijze jager.6594will de grijze jager.6594 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2018

    skill is to dodge on the right moment, heal and use your terrain the right way. around 2015 those 3 were enough to win. even if you didn't had the right build. skilled player could still win most time with easy because there was no power creep. Now it is have the right build or go home because you crippled your self so much. Here is the % agian. First if you were skilled lets say had over 70% chance to win because you didn't had the right build. Now it will be 40% of lower that you will win because you didn't had the right build. Always count the 10% for your enemy you don't know how good he is. Take holo now the enemy has the 50% chance to win for the build already. Let's say against a soulbeast the sb had only 20% for the build but hte soulbeast has 40% for skills but the holo has 30%. For skill the soulbeast should win but because of the build holo should win. The sb has only 60% because of the build but he is better player and the holo has 80% chance to win because of the build. That means in this situation you reward the play wiht the better build that is out dps, but the one who is better in the game is punished for not playing the flavor of the month because of hte balance????? sorry if any phrases are strange or so.

  • @Dangus.6572 said:
    If DD or Thief is so good why I do not see them in WvW so often after PoF? @arenta.2953 had laid out things pretty well. I've been playing thieves from launch and I can tell you, players who know how to fight thief are not easy targets. my point is that lots of complains and frustration is because thief cannot be caught. but why do you want to do it? Chasing thief is not good idea. Every profession/build combo has fighting style with benefits and flaws. there are no superior class in every aspect of game. if some are good for 1 v 1/x another shines in group fights. Learn learn learn :).

    I don't know man. I've been playing Thief from day one as well. Back then, Thief worked really well for what it was designed to do in PvP and in dungeons. Which is to absolutely destroy people who got caught out alone. And you were a feared entity if people weren't ready for you. Now, thief got kitten pretty badly in most aspects. What is supposed to be a reward for a thief suddenly feels like a punishment in most cases.

    Backstabs don't hit as hard as they used to. Missing a backstab is annoying as hell as it locks you out of your second attempt for going after someone who hadn't sat still for one second.

    Acrobatics which is where half of core thief's survivability came from got gutted pretty badly when the Evasion modifiers were taken out to give Daredevil a defined role. For those who don't remember, after dodging, you immediately get back half of your consumed endurance.

    Movement is severely hindered by Navmesh design. Where the smallest rock suddenly stops your shadowstep attempt.

    Only deadeye is capable of providing group support, but some genius made some severely limiting design decisions that proved to make this benefit massively counter intuitive. A profession designed to sit back and cause massive damage!? Lets make his boon share be a tiny radius next to him instead of his entire freaking fire range!

    Initiative is a great design, and proved to be awesome in dungeons and fractals. But in RAIDs, the Thief suffers greatly. They lose their title for having the highest single target damage in the game thanks to elementalist being able to hit large hitboxes multiple times. And also that there's currently no boon outside of a signet that modifies the rate at which a thief can recover initiative. You'd think Alacrity would help with that... but well... no. True that Chill doesn't effect thieves cooldowns, but they get everything else it does to you.

    In PvP almost always required to take Trickery for that damned extra init and init regen instead of making that boon baseline like we've been asking for.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:
    skill is to dodge on the right moment, heal and use your terrain the right way. around 2015 those 3 were enough to win. even if you didn't had the right build. skilled player could still win most time with easy because there was no power creep. Now it is have the right build or go home because you crippled your self so much. Here is the % agian. First if you were skilled lets say had over 70% chance to win because you didn't had the right build. Now it will be 40% of lower that you will win because you didn't had the right build. Always count the 10% for your enemy you don't know how good he is. Take holo now the enemy has the 50% chance to win for the build already. Let's say against a soulbeast the sb had only 20% for the build but hte soulbeast has 40% for skills but the holo has 30%. For skill the soulbeast should win but because of the build holo should win. The sb has only 60% because of the build but he is better player and the holo has 80% chance to win because of the build. That means in this situation you reward the play wiht the better build that is out dps, but the one who is better in the game is punished for not playing the flavor of the month because of hte balance????? sorry if any phrases are strange or so.

    it has allways been the case that you had good and bad matchups with your build. powercreep plays a role IMO only as soon as you fight outnumbered. powercreep has not only happend on offense but also defense. the only thing that might have changed for some classes is the efficency of spamm, therefor a total noob will now not be such a free kill he was a few years back, but he will still die with ease.
    i am pretty sure a skilled player will still win against a noob most of the time unless he plays an utterly stupid build.

    it is funny that you now say your main concern is general powercreep that needs to be rewerted, that is a complete different story then redesgining thief. redesign is not automatically leading to less powercreep and in my opinion powercreep should be reverted or toned down across all classes at the same time or not at all.

    i am playing mostly a deadeye, many here would claim it a weak build by i still have no issues winning most of my encounters - so either deadeye is not as bad or your claim that build is more important than skill is wrong.

  • will de grijze jager.6594will de grijze jager.6594 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2018

    Deadeye is not as bad the dps are really high they can easy 1 shot people(partly power creep, partly class design), but thief was like mesmer always kind of no fun.(meanly stealth is the offender of that.) Before the power creep that is bad for a game, the class was already what leo schroding said. Because of the design the thief was always high dps insame mobility and the power creep is making it worse. Now i hope the redisign of mesmer will fix the mesmer we will see today. But this thief is still the same....

  • will de grijze jager.6594will de grijze jager.6594 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2018

    Mudse you are giving me a run for my money. Nice like this kind of talks. I hope i have shown you that i am not 1 of the salty people that cna't win from thief. I mean warrior, guardian and ranger they do have a lot of problems wiht thiefs. I say this because i have the feeling the design of the thief hurts the game.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2018

    if you dont have issues with fighting thief while not playing a thief, how come you complain about the class or do you assume you are just so much better player then the ones you kill and the ones that kill you are carried by build?
    thief desgin might be unfun to play against but is still balanced. your proposed either high damage or high mobility sounds to me like you want an overall nerf instead of a shift to focus more on one. the general powerlevel of a thief in relation to other professions tho is fine.

  • @MUDse.7623 said:
    if you dont have issues with fighting thief while not playing a thief, how come you complain about the class or do you assume you are just so much better player then the ones you kill and the ones that kill you are carried by build?
    thief desgin might be unfun to play against but is still balanced. your proposed either high damage or high mobility sounds to me like you want an overall nerf instead of a shift to focus more on one. the general powerlevel of a thief in relation to other professions tho is fine.

    i dislike the class if it get hard they run or stealth and run i think that is no fun gameplay. The thief that kill me are really good players(most time get them down because they have only 200hp left well they get me down) and don't mind to die agianst them happens almost never(most time on dh roaming) but fighting a theif for 1 min because of the dodges and blocks and resetting the fight that is not really fun you know and that is why i think thief need a rework. Resetting a fight even a warrior can't do that only a thief can. I am okay if they keep the damage, but a it less mobility then. Also you wouldn't hear me complaining if they tune everything down.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2018

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    if you dont have issues with fighting thief while not playing a thief, how come you complain about the class or do you assume you are just so much better player then the ones you kill and the ones that kill you are carried by build?
    thief desgin might be unfun to play against but is still balanced. your proposed either high damage or high mobility sounds to me like you want an overall nerf instead of a shift to focus more on one. the general powerlevel of a thief in relation to other professions tho is fine.

    i dislike the class if it get hard they run or stealth and run i think that is no fun gameplay. The thief that kill me are really good players(most time get them down because they have only 200hp left well they get me down) and don't mind to die agianst them happens almost never(most time on dh roaming) but fighting a theif for 1 min because of the dodges and blocks and resetting the fight that is not really fun you know and that is why i think thief need a rework. Resetting a fight even a warrior can't do that only a thief can. I am okay if they keep the damage, but a it less mobility then. Also you wouldn't hear me complaining if they tune everything down.

    this now sounds alot better and not as much asking for nerfs as previous ones. but still for giving up the mobility thief will need other kind of defense, depending on how that will be tied into weapon abilities or not, it again can become unfun to play against.

  • A way of getting the thief to a more normal level would be increase the cost of sword evade skill they cna evade atleast 3 time or more with it. in addicion with the other dodges and blocks they almost can perma evade or block.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    instead of increasing the ini for it, i would prefer to revert an old change and make it switch to LS allways not just on hit. this way we would enable pre casting FS again for more offensive start, but you cant spamm it anymore for evades and would open up a counter play by baiting FS.

  • will de grijze jager.6594will de grijze jager.6594 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2018

    Sure sound like a good solution. I think the problem with thief is the spamming like the headshot build from 3 headshot and you are almost done for build. the daze/stun is to much. (also on warrior and so but this is a theif post)

  • Just make 15 Initiative baseline and call it a day :)

  • .....................

  • BrokenGlass.9356BrokenGlass.9356 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2018

    My idea would be to make each weapon skill work with ammo.

    Each initiative skill will start at 2 ammo.

    Skills at 0 ammo are still usable at reduced effectiveness and initiative cost. Each skill always costs initiative.

    Skills at 3 ammo and above have increased effectiveness. Each additional stack takes progressively longer to build up. Ammo maxes at 5 recharges.

    When combat starts, cooldown on weapons are reset.

    Example for Cloak and Dagger:

    Ammo = 0

    • stealth duration reduced 50%
    • damage reduced 50%
    • -2 initiative cost

    Ammo = 1(5 sec recharge) + 2 (8 sec recharge)

    • Normal skill, as is now.

    Ammo = 3 (15 sec recharge)

    • stealth duration increased 10%
    • damage increased 5%

    Ammo = 4 (20 sec recharge)

    • stealth duration increased 30%
    • damage increased 10%
    • removes revealed (icd 3 sec)

    Ammo = 5 (40 sec recharge)

    • stealth duration increased 50%
    • damage increased 15%
    • blind 1s range 180
    • removes revealed (icd 3 sec)

    I imagine every skill on every weapon having "stronger" and "weaker" versions. So that waiting for initiative to build up is rewarding. This will open the risk reward relationship with thief weapons. And also encourage weapon swaps.

    If I want to save up to hit you with a ammo 4 heartseeker.... Then I could be shooting you with rifle while that ammo builds up.

    Let's me load my glass cannon.

    So, while thief is amazingly mobile, this makes us more and more dangerous the more we fight a target.

    Ya know, like a trained assassin, watching for openings and weaknesses....

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    so starting at 2 ammo i need 75 seconds to reach 5 ammo version. you must be playing a different game then i do, cause rarely a fight will take this long.

  • will de grijze jager.6594will de grijze jager.6594 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2018

    intersting idea, But the skills will be still spamable. At the moment that is the problem with thief there daze/stuns are spamable there evade and so on(side note mesmer has also the spamable daze/stun problem) Next to the mobility. I think that my whole problem would be gone if 1 of the 2 would be gone.

  • @MUDse.7623 said:
    so starting at 2 ammo i need 75 seconds to reach 5 ammo version. you must be playing a different game then i do, cause rarely a fight will take this long.

    Clearly, I don't have the devs tools at hand to test the changes, so the cooldown recharge is simply inflated numbers to show what I mean clearly the numbers would be different in actual applications.

    Take a skill like 'death blossom'.

    If death blossom only did evade when down to 0 ammo... Then you could still twitch that skill and use it for extra dodges. But, spamming.... Much less attractive.

    Ammo 0- 6sec recharge

    • 0 damage
    • 0 conditions
    • cost 2 inititave.

    Ammo 2+3 (4+8 sec recharge)

    • no changes

    Ammo 4 (10 sec recharge)

    • increase direct damage of this skill by 25%
    • increase condi duration of this skill by 50%

    Ammo 5 (15 sec recharge)

    • increase direct damage of this skill 50%
    • increase condi duration of this skill 100%

    The idea here is simple: punish spamming, without removing the ability to spam. Reward saving skills, without making them scale so much that a heartseeker becomes a m7 DJ crit.

    Look at a skill like 'unload'.

    Ammo 0- 4sec recharge

    • time between attacks increased 100% number of attacks decreased by 50% (aim is to reduce it below auto attack dps)
    • cost 2 initiative.

    Ammo 1+2- 5+8 sec recharge

    • as per skill now

    Ammo 3- 15 sec recharge

    • reduce time between shots 20%
    • add an extra final shot that does more damage. (like 100 blades)

    Ammo 4- 20 sec recharge

    • reduce time between shots 30%
    • add final strike
    • gain a stacking buff, for each shot that connects, gain +10 precision and ferocity for 5sec. Effect stacks.

    Ammo 5- 25 sec recharge

    • reduce time between shots 40%
    • final strike x2
    • stacking buff
    • regain 2 initiative

    Again the CD's for recharge time would need to be balanced.

    I don't see this as a playstyle where you'd wait for 5 charges on everything and burst a fool. I see this more as a change to the incentives. We'd fight the same ways we do now... But be rewarded for fighting with intelligence.

    That headshot you've been waiting to hit all fight to knock out that heal gets to 5 charges, because your opponent tried to kite you? Well
    ... Now it's a knockdown and 10 stacks of confuse.

    That heartseeker that's gone unused during the fight, stacked up to 5, now has evade frames, and gains bonus damage based on spend inititave, and leaps further.

    There's tons of potential here.

    Also, imagine traits reducing recharge cd. Or changing the way skills scale with ammo. This would open whole new vista's for thief players.

  • will de grijze jager.6594will de grijze jager.6594 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2018

    Thief need a rework, because of the spam kitten that they can do. Make them maybe like 2 ammo skills with a normal cd then they have a bit more then normal classes but, cant spam like they can do now.

  • HyperLooser.2698HyperLooser.2698 Member ✭✭✭

    Thief overall is pretty much 1 button pony and the utility skills are just simple utility, which you very rarely even use in pve and as others pointed out, those utility skills also have fairly high cds.

    I keep trying and wanting to play a thief, but its just so bland compared to other classes, both visually as well mechanically.

    Overall thief is a pvp char and just going Unload quick farming char in pve.

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:
    sorry you are right, but the mobility is still to much on thief. i know that there are other classes with insane mobility but thief is the king of having insane mobility. The classes that you mentioned are killable even if they are good, but a really good thief is almost uncatchable. In my option you should be or high damage or mobile not both at the same time. If you have both then you should be mid damage and mid mobility. That would be good design.

    Let's separate WvW and PvP.

    In PvP Conquest, how is the Thief's mobility such an advantage?
    How is the Thief's ability to escape and run such an advantage?

    The Thief uses mobility for three reasons...
    1. To run away from a fight in order to survive
    2. To run to an empty point
    3. To run to help teammates who are not outnumbered

    For the first reason, a Thief that is running away from a fight is worse than choosing any other profession. A Thief cannot sustain a fight, so it is forced to run away. That doesn't help its team gain or defend points.

    For the second reason, the Thief is literally running to a place where there will be no fighting. In this case, a Thief may as well have no attacks or defenses at all. This is assuming that there is even an empty point to run to.

    For the third reason, a Thief is using his mobility to give an advantage to his team's fights. It's to add an advantage to a fight, not to make the fight even. This can be done by any profession, and the offensive boost will be bigger... the only advantage the Thief adds is speed. This is assuming that there is even a fight where the Thief's team has an equal or greater number.

    Now, in WvW, the ability to run away and reset fights may be more advantageous. But in PvP, it's not much more than a nuisance.

    Yes, the Thief is slippery. I understand that. They're also pathetic fighters on point. If the goal is to hold a point, the Thief is at an automatic disadvantage no matter how mobile they are. And no matter how hard they hit, they don't hit hard enough to take a point alone.

    The Thief is a disruptor. It's not a destroyer. It may not be easy to kill, but it doesn't have to be. As long as a Thief cannot take a point, its mobility and escapability are naturally balanced out. It's like playing Tic-Tac-Toe, if there are two competent players, there should never be a victory. Unfortunately, in Conquest, a draw is a loss for the Thief.

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2018

    I'm all for a Thief rework, but the best place to begin is to find out what the purpose of a Thief is and why it was designed the way it was.

    Initiative System:
    Yes, you can call it "spammy," but that is extremely superficial. Yes, skills can be spammed. But that is not why the initiative system was designed. It was given to the Thief specifically because the Thief was always meant to be an adaptable playstyle. It was meant to be able to do whatever it needed to do at whatever time it needed to do it. It was not designed to be played as though it was on repetitive macros or rhythms. It's "fly by the seat of your pants." As the trait's name implies, it's all about improvisation. It's about reacting and countering your enemy.

    You can say the initiative system gives the Thief an advantage. In part, that's correct. But that's not the Thief's fault. Personally, it's the main reason I play Thief. It is definitely the most realistic of any system. It mirrors fighting games (Street Fighter, Tekken, etc.). It allows the player to choose what to do instead of being pigeon-holed into arbitrary combinations like the traditional MMO. Personally, I say give EVERY profession the initiative system. Then you can balance around around a single system instead of trying to balance one around another. If GW2 combat was a hairstyle, the initiative system really would be a "cowlick" that really does go against the grain.

    However, the Thief is in desperate need of the adaptability of the initiative system. The Thief is too weak defensively to be limited to skill cooldowns and lockouts. The Thief's power is already lacking because of the "spammability" of the initiative system. Are some skills out of balance with others? Of course! But that's from poor skill design, not the spammable nature of the initiative system.

    Skill Balance:
    What is really needed in terms of the initiative system is better balance of skills. Better variety and diversity. For example, why does Shadow Show contain high damage, an unblockable teleport, and a blind with no cast time when Dancing Dagger contains less than half the damage and only applies Cripple and Torment... or Body Shot only gives Immobilize and Vulnerability, and both the latter skills have cast times? Even comparing Shadow Shot to Backstab, one is is a ranged attack with no direct cooldown while the other is limited to Stealth access as well as having both a miss-cooldown and a hit-cooldown (through Revealed)... and Backstab hits for less than Shadow Shot from the front. And beyond even single-skill balance is the entire weapon-set balance. Heartseeker and Black Powder are extremely limited unless they are both present, which comes only on one weapon set.

    Only one weapon set has on-demand Stealth. Only one weapon set has boon-theft. Only one weapon has mobility. For core-Thief, only one weapon set has ranged damage.

    Why is Heartseeker+Black Powder be the most efficient method of Stealth? The Thief was designed around Stealth and Evasion. Why isn't Stealth more available from a weapon-set aspect? Cloak and Dagger may be cheaper to enter Stealth, it is much more difficult and risky to actually achieve Stealth, it also holds less potential. CnD is not on-demand. It requires successfully attacking with a melee strike, which takes away a lot of Stealth's advantages (the enemy knows you're right on top of them). CnD also has no Stealth-stacking ability which would allow Shadow Arts traits to be used to their potential.

    Suggestions:
    The expansions have made everything more complex, making balance more difficult to achieve. But for the Thief, I would argue for going back to the core design decisions for the Thief. Make it a stealthy, evasive, hit-and-run profession. Glass cannon is definitely the proper term. I would argue for expanding the initiative system instead of limiting it. How to do so? Well, that's a personal preference.

    I would be open to a universal initiative system for the Thief. That is, make everything initiative-based. Utilities included. However, that would be a pain to balance, and it would mean an entire overhaul for utilities.

    If the goal is to limit spamming of skills, then perhaps give an incentive to use a variety of skills. Perhaps give a bonus for using all of your skills before you repeat one. Or perhaps lowering the the initiative cost of a skill by one if you used a different skill last.

    For Stealth, why not make it more accessible? Perhaps remove the damage portion on Cloak and Dagger so you can stack Stealth. Have a successful hit give you a damage bonus to your next attack instead.

    Another Stealth possibility, have an "F3" button (either time-based cooldown or initiative-draining) that stacks Stealth for every second that you remain motionless and untouched. Basically, a self-Shadow Refuge. It won't be much help when actually in combat, but it would allow more tactical use of Stealth for pre-combat... which is how the Thief is supposed to operate.

    As for combat ability, perhaps scale a Thief's fighting ability to how many enemies or allies are nearby. It actually seems like a good option for a trait choice. Three traits to choose from. One grants you a bonus when outnumbered, one grants a bonus when in the majority, and one grants a bonus when fighting 1v1.

    Perhaps you could scale a Thief's fighting ability based on its health. At 100%, it should be very lethal. At 75%, it should have average power. At 50%, it shouldn't be able to do much other than stun and control. At 25%, it needs to rely on evasion and mobility to escape.

    Conclusion:
    Yes, the traitlines and weapon sets need to have their own unique flavors and purposes. But there needs to be some universal themes to all Thieves. The ability to Steal isn't enough. Stealth, evasion, mobility, lethality, but at the cost of sustainability. If a Thief cannot sustain a fight on point, it should have a decent shot at setting up a successful ambush that can spike a lone target down quickly. In other words, the Thief should have an initial advantage, but should quickly be disadvantaged. Unfortunately, there are far too many passives and "I win" buttons in the game for even a good ambush to be effective.

    But as for the initiative system, it is the greatest thing about the Thief. It makes the game play much more like a fighting game instead of an MMO. Personally, I wish it would go even further, so the game would feel more like Ninja Gaiden... where it's more about adapting than it is about resource management.

  • JonnyForgotten.4276JonnyForgotten.4276 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2018

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:
    A way of getting the thief to a more normal level would be increase the cost of sword evade skill they cna evade atleast 3 time or more with it. in addicion with the other dodges and blocks they almost can perma evade or block.

    Um. . . ranger/warrior/engi/guard having the ability to negate damage for pretty serious (5-10s+) chunks of time is no better. . . .our evades are actually probably a bit worse because they do contain punishment frames (however small.)

    Seems to me that the thief's 3 main build directions are stealth, damage, and evade/mobility. It's not bad design for the class for every thief build to have to balance between those three main abilities. It's what a rogue class is meant to be.

    Also, this. So much this:

    "Initiative System:
    Yes, you can call it "spammy," but that is extremely superficial. Yes, skills can be spammed. But that is not why the initiative system was designed. It was given to the Thief specifically because the Thief was always meant to be an adaptable playstyle. It was meant to be able to do whatever it needed to do at whatever time it needed to do it. It was not designed to be played as though it was on repetitive macros or rhythms. It's "fly by the seat of your pants." As the trait's name implies, it's all about improvisation. It's about reacting and countering your enemy."

    Our ability to adapt to various situations is the core of what makes this class work. It's why most (not all) of our utilities do little to no damage, why we have a nonCD attack system, why our HP is so low. . . we are meant to be able to make on-the-fly decisions based on whatever situation presents itself, then pay the price if we decide wrong.

  • the only thing wrong with thief is its lack of roles. It doesn't do anything but dps and burst, whether its condi or power. its all the same. But other than that, the thief class is put together well and is cohesive with its traits. I've seen a bunch of threads asking for reworks for a bunch of solid classes and it just seems people are just bored with their class and want something fresh. Rev is the only class that I think needs a legitimate rework, almost from the ground up.

  • will de grijze jager.6594will de grijze jager.6594 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2018

    @JonnyForgotten.4276 said:

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:
    A way of getting the thief to a more normal level would be increase the cost of sword evade skill they cna evade atleast 3 time or more with it. in addicion with the other dodges and blocks they almost can perma evade or block.

    Um. . . ranger/warrior/engi/guard having the ability to negate damage for pretty serious (5-10s+) chunks of time is no better. . . .our evades are actually probably a bit worse because they do contain punishment frames (however small.)

    Seems to me that the thief's 3 main build directions are stealth, damage, and evade/mobility. It's not bad design for the class for every thief build to have to balance between those three main abilities. It's what a rogue class is meant to be.

    Also, this. So much this:

    "Initiative System:
    Yes, you can call it "spammy," but that is extremely superficial. Yes, skills can be spammed. But that is not why the initiative system was designed. It was given to the Thief specifically because the Thief was always meant to be an adaptable playstyle. It was meant to be able to do whatever it needed to do at whatever time it needed to do it. It was not designed to be played as though it was on repetitive macros or rhythms. It's "fly by the seat of your pants." As the trait's name implies, it's all about improvisation. It's about reacting and countering your enemy."

    Our ability to adapt to various situations is the core of what makes this class work. It's why most (not all) of our utilities do little to no damage, why we have a nonCD attack system, why our HP is so low. . . we are meant to be able to make on-the-fly decisions based on whatever situation presents itself, then pay the price if we decide wrong.

    @JonnyForgotten.4276 said:

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:
    A way of getting the thief to a more normal level would be increase the cost of sword evade skill they cna evade atleast 3 time or more with it. in addicion with the other dodges and blocks they almost can perma evade or block.

    Um. . . ranger/warrior/engi/guard having the ability to negate damage for pretty serious (5-10s+) chunks of time is no better. . . .our evades are actually probably a bit worse because they do contain punishment frames (however small.)

    Seems to me that the thief's 3 main build directions are stealth, damage, and evade/mobility. It's not bad design for the class for every thief build to have to balance between those three main abilities. It's what a rogue class is meant to be.

    Also, this. So much this:

    "Initiative System:
    Yes, you can call it "spammy," but that is extremely superficial. Yes, skills can be spammed. But that is not why the initiative system was designed. It was given to the Thief specifically because the Thief was always meant to be an adaptable playstyle. It was meant to be able to do whatever it needed to do at whatever time it needed to do it. It was not designed to be played as though it was on repetitive macros or rhythms. It's "fly by the seat of your pants." As the trait's name implies, it's all about improvisation. It's about reacting and countering your enemy."

    Our ability to adapt to various situations is the core of what makes this class work. It's why most (not all) of our utilities do little to no damage, why we have a nonCD attack system, why our HP is so low. . . we are meant to be able to make on-the-fly decisions based on whatever situation presents itself, then pay the price if we decide wrong.

    Both of you guys are saying the same was meant to. How it is now it is far from what was meant and you both are thief main right? Then you know that it is spamming now s/d skills before that it was spamming interupped from d/p. It is true that it was meant to be like what you guys say but now it is really far from that. Rev has kind of the same like thief but a better system. That is how the thief should have been like and not how it's now. You can agree with me that it is far form what it was meant.

  • @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    the only thing wrong with thief is its lack of roles. It doesn't do anything but dps and burst, whether its condi or power. its all the same. But other than that, the thief class is put together well and is cohesive with its traits. I've seen a bunch of threads asking for reworks for a bunch of solid classes and it just seems people are just bored with their class and want something fresh. Rev is the only class that I think needs a legitimate rework, almost from the ground up.

    The only thing what they should chance about rev is the cd give all the skills only a cd of like 4-10 s and the engery system will not allow them to spam the skills what the theif systeem does allow them to do. What you say that the thief class is well cohesive with it's trait, from the first week of gw2 people did ask to chance the thief and mesmer because of how the were made. They were both made around stealth and that is juist a bad mech. Everything has a counter in gw2 except stealth(yes you have some skills that reveal, but there are to few options for that.) You can counter blonks with unblockables, you can counter reflex wiht beam attacks and go on like that.

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2018

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:
    Both of you guys are saying the same was meant to. How it is now it is far from what was meant and you both are thief main right? Then you know that it is spamming now s/d skills before that it was spamming interupped from d/p. It is true that it was meant to be like what you guys say but now it is really far from that. Rev has kind of the same like thief but a better system. That is how the thief should have been like and not how it's now. You can agree with me that it is far form what it was meant.

    Yes, the Thief CAN spam skills. But if a Thief spams skills, that Thief dies quickly. Please name a single skill that the Thief has that can lead to PvP victory by spamming.

    I can't speak for Daredevil or Deadeye, but core Thief doesn't have an "I win" button. Headshot spam doesn't kill anyone with core Thief. It can only deny attacks/stomps/revives. Flanking Strike+Larcenous Strike may hit hard, but it is slow and drains initiative like crazy. Heartseeker spam is pointless unless the target is low on health. Death Blossom spam is difficult to control and the bleeds are easily cleansed. The worst spam skill that I've seen is Unload.

    And the main reason why Thief skills NEED to be spammable is Infiltrator's Arrow. Without it, the Thief loses PvP viability. Also, Black Powder+Heartseeker+Heartseeker+Heartseeker+Heartseeker.

    There's a reason why the standard Thief attack combination was D/P 31111113111111. By far, the auto-attack was the most spammed and effective skill the Thief had.

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:
    Everything has a counter in gw2 except stealth(yes you have some skills that reveal, but there are to few options for that.)

    Stealth is definitely poorly developed. The Thief has consistently been losing advantage after advantage from Stealth. Not only do very few Thief builds have decent access to Stealth, Thieves have nothing to counter Stealth unlike many other professions do. Other professions have been given skilled to reveal Stealth enemies. Other professions have been given more access to Stealth.

    Stealth is annoying to fight against. I get it. But in PvP, Stealth does little more than mask an escape or to make an enemy lose a target lock. As far as using it offensively, a Thief without access to Stealth may very well be the most vulnerable to attacks from Stealth.

    Honestly, the Thief should be the undisputed king of Stealth. It should have more universal access to Stealth. It should be able to track targets who are Stealthed. It should have more counters to Stealth.

    But really, a Thief without Stealth is already too weak to fight on point. A Thief with Stealth cannot hold a point. And a Thief who attacks from Stealth is Revealed for 4 seconds, making it weak until it can get back into Stealth.

    I just don't really see what your idea of a "Thief rework" would be. You seem to be against Stealth, evasion, and skill spam... all of which keeps the Thief too weak to fight in PvP to begin with. Sure, the Thief may excel as a roamer in WvW, but in PvP, it's an extreme underdog in a fight. Which leads us to a dilemma. If you weaken the Thief in WvW, you destroy it completely in PvP. If you strengthen it in PvP, you make even more people cry in WvW.

  • JonnyForgotten.4276JonnyForgotten.4276 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2018

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:

    @JonnyForgotten.4276 said:

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:
    A way of getting the thief to a more normal level would be increase the cost of sword evade skill they cna evade atleast 3 time or more with it. in addicion with the other dodges and blocks they almost can perma evade or block.

    Um. . . ranger/warrior/engi/guard having the ability to negate damage for pretty serious (5-10s+) chunks of time is no better. . . .our evades are actually probably a bit worse because they do contain punishment frames (however small.)

    Seems to me that the thief's 3 main build directions are stealth, damage, and evade/mobility. It's not bad design for the class for every thief build to have to balance between those three main abilities. It's what a rogue class is meant to be.

    Also, this. So much this:

    "Initiative System:
    Yes, you can call it "spammy," but that is extremely superficial. Yes, skills can be spammed. But that is not why the initiative system was designed. It was given to the Thief specifically because the Thief was always meant to be an adaptable playstyle. It was meant to be able to do whatever it needed to do at whatever time it needed to do it. It was not designed to be played as though it was on repetitive macros or rhythms. It's "fly by the seat of your pants." As the trait's name implies, it's all about improvisation. It's about reacting and countering your enemy."

    Our ability to adapt to various situations is the core of what makes this class work. It's why most (not all) of our utilities do little to no damage, why we have a nonCD attack system, why our HP is so low. . . we are meant to be able to make on-the-fly decisions based on whatever situation presents itself, then pay the price if we decide wrong.

    @JonnyForgotten.4276 said:

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:
    A way of getting the thief to a more normal level would be increase the cost of sword evade skill they cna evade atleast 3 time or more with it. in addicion with the other dodges and blocks they almost can perma evade or block.

    Um. . . ranger/warrior/engi/guard having the ability to negate damage for pretty serious (5-10s+) chunks of time is no better. . . .our evades are actually probably a bit worse because they do contain punishment frames (however small.)

    Seems to me that the thief's 3 main build directions are stealth, damage, and evade/mobility. It's not bad design for the class for every thief build to have to balance between those three main abilities. It's what a rogue class is meant to be.

    Also, this. So much this:

    "Initiative System:
    Yes, you can call it "spammy," but that is extremely superficial. Yes, skills can be spammed. But that is not why the initiative system was designed. It was given to the Thief specifically because the Thief was always meant to be an adaptable playstyle. It was meant to be able to do whatever it needed to do at whatever time it needed to do it. It was not designed to be played as though it was on repetitive macros or rhythms. It's "fly by the seat of your pants." As the trait's name implies, it's all about improvisation. It's about reacting and countering your enemy."

    Our ability to adapt to various situations is the core of what makes this class work. It's why most (not all) of our utilities do little to no damage, why we have a nonCD attack system, why our HP is so low. . . we are meant to be able to make on-the-fly decisions based on whatever situation presents itself, then pay the price if we decide wrong.

    Both of you guys are saying the same was meant to. How it is now it is far from what was meant and you both are thief main right? Then you know that it is spamming now s/d skills before that it was spamming interupped from d/p. It is true that it was meant to be like what you guys say but now it is really far from that. Rev has kind of the same like thief but a better system. That is how the thief should have been like and not how it's now. You can agree with me that it is far form what it was meant.

    I get what you are saying, but straight up spamming ANY skill on thief will get you dead against a decent (not good, but decent) player. D/p headshot is countered by stability and dodging. S/d 3 can be dodged, plus lacks stealth. P/p 3 has a super long, interuptable channel and the set has no no escape potential. DJ on rifle takes a good bit of time to set up for a strong hit. . . .point is, our skills can be countered, and overextending and spending all our init to spam out single skills means that if they don't land, we are dead. That's the risk/reward element that our class is built around. We don't have huge aoe's, we don't have a ton of cleave, what we do have is the ability to pick a target, dump as much damage as possible, then get away (if we are lucky) if kitten goes bad. Again, it's a rogue class. That playstyle is, traditionally, what a rogue is.

  • I get what you are saying, but straight up spamming ANY skill on thief will get you dead against a decent (not good, but decent) player. D/p headshot is countered by stability and dodging. S/d 3 can be dodged, plus lacks stealth. P/p 3 has a super long, interuptable channel and the set has no no escape potential. DJ on rifle takes a good bit of time to set up for a strong hit. . . .point is, our skills can be countered, and overextending and spending all our init to spam out single skills means that if they don't land, we are dead. That's the risk/reward element that our class is built around. We don't have huge aoe's, we don't have a ton of cleave, what we do have is the ability to pick a target, dump as much damage as possible, then get away (if we are lucky) if kitten goes bad. Again, it's a rogue class. That playstyle is, traditionally, what a rogue is.

    Thief spam 2 3 2 and go out and repeat. I'm in plat all the time and see thief only really use 2 and 3 on sd and get out the fight because of the condi they do on the trait they keep the enemy in combit and do thsi again after like less then 5 seconds. If that is not spamming i don't know it anymore. I think i would have a lesser problem if there skill 3 on sd wasn't a evade and unblockable at the same time you can say dodge it, sure but after 4 time skill 2 and 3 is even dd or ranger with full evade build out of dodges.

  • Honestly, the Thief should be the undisputed king of Stealth. It should have more universal access to Stealth. It should be able to track targets who are Stealthed. It should have more counters to Stealth.

    stealth was a bad mech form the start so i would say remove stealth and give thief a rework for the removing stealth part. (Mesmer shouldn't have stealth either)

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2018

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:
    Thief spam 2 3 2 and go out and repeat. I'm in plat all the time and see thief only really use 2 and 3 on sd and get out the fight because of the condi they do on the trait they keep the enemy in combit and do thsi again after like less then 5 seconds. If that is not spamming i don't know it anymore. I think i would have a lesser problem if there skill 3 on sd wasn't a evade and unblockable at the same time you can say dodge it, sure but after 4 time skill 2 and 3 is even dd or ranger with full evade build out of dodges.

    I'm just making sure I am getting this correct. You want to fundamentally change the way the Thief works because they jump into a fight, attack once, then jump back out?

    You do understand why they do this, correct? Because they are so incredibly weak, they can't stay in the fight any longer or they will get swatted like a fly.

    I'm not sure what conditions you speak of. The only condition is Immobilize. If they have Panic Strike traited, then they can apply poison. That's it.

    That's literally what they are... a nuisance like a fly. Those are not the Thief players you need to be worried about.

    @will de grijze jager.6594 said:
    stealth was a bad mech form the start so i would say remove stealth and give thief a rework for the removing stealth part. (Mesmer shouldn't have stealth either)

    Again, I can't speak for the elites, but most core Thief builds severely lack access to Stealth for any duration of time... especially out of combat Stealth. D/P is the only build that can achieve it without sacrificing utilities. The only other Stealth access is x/D, and that is 3 seconds of combat Stealth. It's initiative expensive and requires a successful attack. Without Shadow Arts traited, Stealth doesn't do much other than annoy. And honestly, Stealth should be MUCH more annoying. So yes, I agree it's not in good condition. I would completely overhaul the Stealth mechanic.

    Personally, I love the idea of a "Shadow Realm" or "Ethereal Plane" where Stealthed players enter. A Stealthed player could see every non-Stealthed player, but could also see/sense other Stealthed players. Striking other Stealthed players would not cause you to be Revealed. This would allow completely invisible battles from the perspective of those not Stealthed.

  • eldrjth.7384eldrjth.7384 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2018

    I think skills that offer util as thier primary function such as CC and escapes, shouldnt be on the weapon slot since it eats into dps potential too much. This leads to some skills rarely seeing usage in typical play. Utility powers also cost too much ini compared to what they offer, and that was solely designed to prevent spamming of the power.

    If some weapon skills were given cooldown on top of still costing initiative it might as allow for burstier attacks without fear of dps going out of control. It also allows certain skills with utils baked in like pulls/daze/knockdown/evades to be used without being OP.

    My suggestion is to relocate skills that are utilities to the profession skill slots (next to steal) and where they would become cool down based ad have zero initiative cost. This would make them operate somewhat like equipping kits for engineer but instead happens with weapons for thief. This would fill up profession bar with up to 3 powers since steal/use of steal skill already takes up 2. This would innately add cooldown to skills that would otherwise are deemed too OP to have zero cooldown and would rarely see any usage if on the weapons slot. Also it opens up the possibility for more **actual ** dmg powers added into each weapon set maybe to give situational adv, for instance aoe, creating/finishing combo fields and low cost powers designed to replace autos.

  • @will de grijze jager.6594 said:
    The only thing what they should chance about rev is the cd give all the skills only a cd of like 4-10 s and the engery system will not allow them to spam the skills what the theif systeem does allow them to do. What you say that the thief class is well cohesive with it's trait, from the first week of gw2 people did ask to chance the thief and mesmer because of how the were made. They were both made around stealth and that is juist a bad mech. Everything has a counter in gw2 except stealth(yes you have some skills that reveal, but there are to few options for that.) You can counter blonks with unblockables, you can counter reflex wiht beam attacks and go on like that.

    Maybe the energy system, if improved upon, would be a more balanced system than the initiative system, but that doesn't change the fact that rev is all over the place in its design that it lacks any focus to get anything done. It lacks adaptability and variety and the only reason it works is because number buffs and gimmicky skills. Taking out numbers and everything for all classes and just looking how the professions function on a mechanical level, rev have the worst implementation of design that you can tell wasn't polished up enough to be delivered how it was. And this is more from the standpoint of its core skills, which can hardly be called functioning efficiently because its only balanced with the addition of elite specs. It lacks so much with its core skills and traits. Also two other points that support it not being implemented well is that at a last minutes notice they switched rev from a one weapon set class to a two weapon set class. Its weapons were designed as standalones that would coincide with spammy utilities, but it sucked so bad and people gave such poor feedback that they gave revs weapon swap which threw off the whole design around spamming utilities because now there were more weapon skills with more functions. So they had to increase cooldowns and energy costs which made the energy system overkill at that point. And then they couldn't even implement more than half of the legends for underwater combat because it was a half baked idea that would have required to many resources to make the legends work underwater. You'll often hear that the revs spear is the best weapon it has design wise because it was created with the original revenant design in which it was the only weapon avaiable, so it has damage and added utility, basically an all around good weapon that makes up for the lack of a second weapon. But even if they made rev a single weapon set class again, they would have to redesign the hammer to have more utility and probably bring back the old off-hand sword skills, as well as adjusting numbers for every single skill and trait available.

    This is what I mean by the rev having design issues and needing an update the most. They can balance the numbers so its usable and viable in raids, but its playstyle and skills were designed for a whole different style of gameplay that didnt work out and not its just a mess and hodgepodge of creative ideas that were never fleshed out fully. And even then, the legends are extremely dissonant and often work against each other.

    Thief has none of these extreme design flaws. It has variety flaws in which everything it has is designed around pure dps, but how the class functions is fine. They just need to do something support wise with the next elite spec instead of going a different dps route. But they will probably give them a condi dps spec instead.

  • Thief has none of these extreme design flaws. It has variety flaws in which everything it has is designed around pure dps, but how the class functions is fine. They just need to do something support wise with the next elite spec instead of going a different dps route. But they will probably give them a condi dps spec instead.

    Ow great give the 1 class that can spam a support build or condi build. Before they do that they need to solve the spam gameplay. You know how strong a interup is right. on all the classes interups are on cc and thief can spam this. I would be okay wiht how the thief is if they didn't have like interups and get in get out skills on spam access. You can say if they spam it theyw ill die i have seen it in plat that by juist spamming interups they kill somone because of a trait. The trait has been nerf tnx god, but still see theif killing people wiht spamming even in top tier matches. I have a lot of friend that play theif and are even thinking how it is now is not skillfull, but more spamming. A right stap would be if they chance the utility of some weapons skills and make them in to utility skills they need a cd like interups and so on.

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