Thief need a REWORK like memser

This will be the second rework for mesmer, but thief need one to for the past 5 years.

Would you mind going into detail on what you think thief actually needs a rework in, and for what game mode

@"will de grijze jager.6594" said:thief need one toI agree, especially for the "dodge system" and the initiative management. You'll have a hard time not to choose Trickery and Daredevil for what essentially boils down to two traits and an additional doge. Some of the utility skills are way too "pricey" (considering that in some cases you'll also going to need initiative to attack) and suffer from bad synergy overall. Also, some conditions for some traits are unnecessarily restrictive while other traits within the same category are way too similar to each other.

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:This will be the second rework for mesmer, but thief need one to for the past 5 years.

more specifically?

imo thief needs something to bring to group content, lacking CDs is understandable why their overall dps has to be lowest than CD based professions, however they should bring something to group content so that people would actually like to have them on a group, most dps classes bring something unique to the overall party utility; SBs stances/druid healing, mesmer alacry, war banners, guardians on demand shield, engineer pin point, etc...

i allready made earlier today a post voicing my opinion that the daredevil Grandmaster dodges should also grant their respective buffs to the daredevil party, that way they would no longer be a selfish class and could actually contribute with a unique boost to the group.

@Tora.7214 said:lacking CDs is understandable why their overall dps has to be lowest than CD based professionsNo it isn't, there is no reason why their overall DPS should be the lowest of all classes especially since they don't bring anything else to the table.

@Tails.9372 said:

@Tora.7214 said:lacking CDs is understandable why their overall dps has to be lowest than CD based professionsNo it isn't, there is no reason why their overall DPS should be the lowest of all classes especially since they don't bring anything else to the table.

its an exchange of being able to use skills without CD, imagine if skills like hundreed blades or whirling wrath could be spamed as long as there is available resources.

however yes, i do agree to because of this they should be able to bring something else to the table, thats why i mentioned that atleast they should make daredevil dodges grant their damage buffs not only to the daredevil, but to the ppl on their party too, good daredevils can keep their buff on at all times, so a permanent 10% in power/condi damage to the whole group would make them an welcome addition to any group content

@"Tora.7214" said:its an exchange of being able to use skills without CD, imagine if skills like hundreed blades or whirling wrath could be spamed as long as there is available resources.It doesn't matter whether or not a skill is spammable, what ultimately counts is the end result. Again, there is no point in keeping the dps low just because of the "mana" system. All it does is balance the usage of various skills among each other which comes with its own set of disadvantages. The dps should be on par with other "glass canons", not having a CD is not an argument here.

I don't mind that the dps of a theif in a burst is really high sure let's have them that, but a thief shouldn't be extreem mobile. It is 1 of the other in a class not both. This is about pvp and wvw.

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:I don't mind that the dps of a theif in a burst is really high sure let's have them that, but a thief shouldn't be extreem mobile. It is 1 of the other in a class not both. This is about pvp and wvw.

its a glass cannon. designed to hit hard and run.

if you want hit hard and no mobility. go warrior or necro.they gain 10k hp and alot of stability/extra hp bars (not to mention better heals) to compensate for the lack of mobility.

Rev, Mesmer, elementalist, and Thief are the hit hard, and run classes. focusing on evasion mobility and hard hits

Ranger, Necro, Warrior, and Guardian are the survival classes. designed to stick around for the long fight.guardian and ranger trading the high dmg for more utility.

and engineer is everything you want. and stuff you dont

@arenta.2953 said:

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:I don't mind that the dps of a theif in a burst is really high sure let's have them that, but a thief shouldn't be extreem mobile. It is 1 of the other in a class not both. This is about pvp and wvw.

i know but is is bad if you give a class so much mobility that no one can kill him. Like warrior they do mid dps but a mid mobility, that is a good disign for a class. rev high dps low mobilitys high survivel, but thief high dps high mobility and mid survivel(blocks dodges stealth enz.) you have the one of the other not both.

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:

@arenta.2953 said:

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:I don't mind that the dps of a theif in a burst is really high sure let's have them that, but a thief shouldn't be extreem mobile. It is 1 of the other in a class not both. This is about pvp and wvw.

believe it or not, thief isn't alone in the "so much mobility that no one can kill him"

but if he goes for that much mobility, his ability in combat will be alot weaker.

Elementalist and Engineer both share that insane mobility

Engineer with its jumps and super speeds

elementalist with its teleport, mist form, and lunge.

Mesmer on the other hand shares thief's stealth aspect (though mesmer has more hp and actual target breaks instead of less reliable, but longer lasting stealth)by using clones + target breaks. teleports. and mini stealths

thief has access to alot of stealths yeah, but your going either fast movement, or stealth. using both can really hurt your combat ability. and going stealth route will leave you with little to no stunbreaks.

to add to all this, thief's lack of stability again is notable. the only class with no usable form of stability (only stability is dagger storm, which locks out your other abilities while in progress, and doesn't prevent you from being crippled, immoblized, or frosted)

now, to address your "Evades, blocks"

right there, your refering to daredevil.

not thief, not deadeye.

daredevil is the evasion king, and is the only one with access to a block.

so please be specific, otherwise you nerf thief but daredevil remains unaffected.

and yeah, daredevil's mobility is the definition of insane (as in wtf as Anet thinking)so i can't argue there. but please be specific to the class.

believe it or not, thief isn't alone in the "so much mobility that no one can kill him"

but if he goes for that much mobility, his ability in combat will be alot weaker.

Elementalist and Engineer both share that insane mobility

Engineer with its jumps and super speeds

elementalist with its teleport, mist form, and lunge.

Mesmer on the other hand shares thief's stealth aspect (though mesmer has more hp and actual target breaks instead of less reliable, but longer lasting stealth)by using clones + target breaks. teleports. and mini stealths

thief has access to alot of stealths yeah, but your going either fast movement, or stealth. using both can really hurt your combat ability. and going stealth route will leave you with little to no stunbreaks.

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to add to all this, thief's lack of stability again is notable. the only class with no usable form of stability (only stability is dagger storm, which locks out your other abilities while in progress, and doesn't prevent you from being crippled, immoblized, or frosted)

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now, to address your "Evades, blocks"

right there, your refering to daredevil.

not thief, not deadeye.

daredevil is the evasion king, and is the only one with access to a block.

so please be specific, otherwise you nerf thief but daredevil remains unaffected.

and yeah, daredevil's mobility is the definition of insane (as in kitten as Anet thinking)so i can't argue there. but please be specific to the class.

sorry you are right, but the mobility is still to much on thief. i know that there are other classes with insane mobility but thief is the king of having insane mobility. The classes that you mentioned are killable even if they are good, but a really good thief is almost uncatchable. In my option you should be or high damage or mobile not both at the same time. If you have both then you should be mid damage and mid mobility. That would be good design.

If DD or Thief is so good why I do not see them in WvW so often after PoF? @arenta.2953 had laid out things pretty well. I've been playing thieves from launch and I can tell you, players who know how to fight thief are not easy targets. my point is that lots of complains and frustration is because thief cannot be caught. but why do you want to do it? Chasing thief is not good idea. Every profession/build combo has fighting style with benefits and flaws. there are no superior class in every aspect of game. if some are good for 1 v 1/x another shines in group fights. Learn learn learn :).

i know i'm playing 5 years it is more to shut down the edge theif players who think they are so good becuase of the build that htey play and not the skills they have. introduc skill agian in wvw and pvp instead strong builds. There was a time that being skilled was 80% of the wvw and pvp mode now it is more like 50 50. see nerco, engi (dd(thief) to a extent, have seen dd that before hot never would have had a chance in a fight but now becuase of the build they did) no skills needed to be "good"

@"will de grijze jager.6594" said:i know i'm playing 5 years it is more to shut down the edge theif players who think they are so good becuase of the build that htey play and not the skills they have. introduc skill agian in wvw and pvp instead strong builds. There was a time that being skilled was 80% of the wvw and pvp mode now it is more like 50 50. see nerco, engi (dd(thief) to a extent, have seen dd that before hot never would have had a chance in a fight but now becuase of the build they did) no skills needed to be "good"

you mean the time like at the beginning when alot of people havent figured how to dodge in the game , were not able to tell apart the mesmer from his clones, didnt know what a stunbreak or a condi cleanse is - oh yeah there your knowledge would matter more.what exactly is it you consider skill here, i see this word thrown around alot but i still cant figure what you want the fight to be about. is skill for you the knowledge about the classes,their strengths , their weaknesses, the envoirment and putting them to use to gain an advantage or is it being able to react fast to an unforseen situation or avoiding such to begin with.most of the fights in WvW as a solo roamer will be 1 vs 3+ to even be able to win here you require your opponents to lack understanding the game mechanics as it should be impossible to stomp anyone against 3 or more players because of downedstate, but it happens regularly. in such fights its alot more important to have experience in fighting groups of noobs, know how they will work together or not and especially how to split them. most people you will see in WvW no matter you class wont stand a chance anyway in a 1 on 1 , because they are too easy to predict to outplay or lack understanding of basic mechanics. with thief it is just easier to split people to get them one by one.granted thief has propably the best escape potential and is therefor able to survive any build while he also has in theory the potential damage to kill any build. but an experienced player should be able to kill and at the least survive thieves that as you claim got no skill but just run a strong build with ease. aside from that i see alot more mesmers, spellbreakers, holos and scourges even more guardians then thieves while roaming , if they were really this strong without skill requirement why would people with clear lack of understanding basic mechanics choose so weak and hard to play classes like scourge then over thief.

edit: one more thing i missed, would be really nice if you were more specific in what is too strong, giving us specific trait and skill combinations that you think should be toned down etc. 'high mobility and high damage' is just too vague as there are many builds out there.

you know that it is never 1 skill that kills someone(not counting deadeye 1 shot built even that use more then 1 ability) to be able to deal over 18 k in 1 second is not fun to play agianst especially if they use stealth first and you don't see it coming that is no skill that is bad design. second even before hot 3 years in the game it was even more 60 % skill 40% build and most people know what they were doing. i'm not even going to call out the skills look on meta battle and see for yourself that is 1 of the versions of the normal thief(daredevil) builds. discleamer this is not only for thief this if for all classes that can do 1 shot combo's. For example on engi the combo that has like 8 attacks in it and if 1 hits you most likely a gonner. It's not fun to play and play against.

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:you know that it is never 1 skill that kills someone(not counting deadeye 1 shot built even that use more then 1 ability) to be able to deal over 18 k in 1 second is not fun to play agianst especially if they use stealth first and you don't see it coming that is no skill that is bad design. second even before hot 3 years in the game it was even more 60 % skill 40% build and most people know what they were doing. i'm not even going to call out the skills look on meta battle and see for yourself that is 1 of the versions of the normal thief(daredevil) builds. discleamer this is not only for thief this if for all classes that can do 1 shot combo's. For example on engi the combo that has like 8 attacks in it and if 1 hits you most likely a gonner. It's not fun to play and play against.

you are still not really specific and i kinda start to like your funny % telling how much it is build and how much skill is requiered. you are right in one thing after june 2015 patch, the quality of players dropped more and more as many people quit or took breaks. so making it more skill based now will make experienced players stand out even more.how many noobs should an experienced player be able to deal with? if it was 100% about skill and not a bit about build or setup, then a perfect player could face an unlimited amount of noobs wich would create a very unhealthy game for the majority in that case, the noobs.how will a greater impact of knowledge to the outcome of a fight actually make your opponents more knowledgable, it will just make them lose more often. if you are more experienced and do know more about game mechanics and average player behaviour in gw2, you already should win mostly , because that is the only thing you need. i for instance would consider my self rather good in theroy but altho i am terrible in execution of it and still make way too many mistakes(infact soo many altho i record all the time all of my videos are not listed as i am too ashamed of the numbers of mistakes i made) i still win most of my encounters. and you cant tell me its my build doing..i usually dont play meta builds not my current deadeye build aswell as my daredevil build are both not meta.and you still didnt tell me what is skill to you. ok attack from stealth you say is no skill, how long stealth, how was it entered /stacked or generally as soon as you enter stealth all your skill is gone?

skill is to dodge on the right moment, heal and use your terrain the right way. around 2015 those 3 were enough to win. even if you didn't had the right build. skilled player could still win most time with easy because there was no power creep. Now it is have the right build or go home because you crippled your self so much. Here is the % agian. First if you were skilled lets say had over 70% chance to win because you didn't had the right build. Now it will be 40% of lower that you will win because you didn't had the right build. Always count the 10% for your enemy you don't know how good he is. Take holo now the enemy has the 50% chance to win for the build already. Let's say against a soulbeast the sb had only 20% for the build but hte soulbeast has 40% for skills but the holo has 30%. For skill the soulbeast should win but because of the build holo should win. The sb has only 60% because of the build but he is better player and the holo has 80% chance to win because of the build. That means in this situation you reward the play wiht the better build that is out dps, but the one who is better in the game is punished for not playing the flavor of the month because of hte balance????? sorry if any phrases are strange or so.

@Dangus.6572 said:If DD or Thief is so good why I do not see them in WvW so often after PoF? @arenta.2953 had laid out things pretty well. I've been playing thieves from launch and I can tell you, players who know how to fight thief are not easy targets. my point is that lots of complains and frustration is because thief cannot be caught. but why do you want to do it? Chasing thief is not good idea. Every profession/build combo has fighting style with benefits and flaws. there are no superior class in every aspect of game. if some are good for 1 v 1/x another shines in group fights. Learn learn learn :).

I don't know man. I've been playing Thief from day one as well. Back then, Thief worked really well for what it was designed to do in PvP and in dungeons. Which is to absolutely destroy people who got caught out alone. And you were a feared entity if people weren't ready for you. Now, thief got gimped pretty badly in most aspects. What is supposed to be a reward for a thief suddenly feels like a punishment in most cases.

Backstabs don't hit as hard as they used to. Missing a backstab is annoying as hell as it locks you out of your second attempt for going after someone who hadn't sat still for one second.

Acrobatics which is where half of core thief's survivability came from got gutted pretty badly when the Evasion modifiers were taken out to give Daredevil a defined role. For those who don't remember, after dodging, you immediately get back half of your consumed endurance.

Movement is severely hindered by Navmesh design. Where the smallest rock suddenly stops your shadowstep attempt.

Only deadeye is capable of providing group support, but some genius made some severely limiting design decisions that proved to make this benefit massively counter intuitive. A profession designed to sit back and cause massive damage!? Lets make his boon share be a tiny radius next to him instead of his entire freaking fire range!

Initiative is a great design, and proved to be awesome in dungeons and fractals. But in RAIDs, the Thief suffers greatly. They lose their title for having the highest single target damage in the game thanks to elementalist being able to hit large hitboxes multiple times. And also that there's currently no boon outside of a signet that modifies the rate at which a thief can recover initiative. You'd think Alacrity would help with that... but well... no. True that Chill doesn't effect thieves cooldowns, but they get everything else it does to you.

In PvP almost always required to take Trickery for that damned extra init and init regen instead of making that boon baseline like we've been asking for.

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:skill is to dodge on the right moment, heal and use your terrain the right way. around 2015 those 3 were enough to win. even if you didn't had the right build. skilled player could still win most time with easy because there was no power creep. Now it is have the right build or go home because you crippled your self so much. Here is the % agian. First if you were skilled lets say had over 70% chance to win because you didn't had the right build. Now it will be 40% of lower that you will win because you didn't had the right build. Always count the 10% for your enemy you don't know how good he is. Take holo now the enemy has the 50% chance to win for the build already. Let's say against a soulbeast the sb had only 20% for the build but hte soulbeast has 40% for skills but the holo has 30%. For skill the soulbeast should win but because of the build holo should win. The sb has only 60% because of the build but he is better player and the holo has 80% chance to win because of the build. That means in this situation you reward the play wiht the better build that is out dps, but the one who is better in the game is punished for not playing the flavor of the month because of hte balance????? sorry if any phrases are strange or so.

it has allways been the case that you had good and bad matchups with your build. powercreep plays a role IMO only as soon as you fight outnumbered. powercreep has not only happend on offense but also defense. the only thing that might have changed for some classes is the efficency of spamm, therefor a total noob will now not be such a free kill he was a few years back, but he will still die with ease.i am pretty sure a skilled player will still win against a noob most of the time unless he plays an utterly stupid build.

it is funny that you now say your main concern is general powercreep that needs to be rewerted, that is a complete different story then redesgining thief. redesign is not automatically leading to less powercreep and in my opinion powercreep should be reverted or toned down across all classes at the same time or not at all.

i am playing mostly a deadeye, many here would claim it a weak build by i still have no issues winning most of my encounters - so either deadeye is not as bad or your claim that build is more important than skill is wrong.

Deadeye is not as bad the dps are really high they can easy 1 shot people(partly power creep, partly class design), but thief was like mesmer always kind of no fun.(meanly stealth is the offender of that.) Before the power creep that is bad for a game, the class was already what leo schroding said. Because of the design the thief was always high dps insame mobility and the power creep is making it worse. Now i hope the redisign of mesmer will fix the mesmer we will see today. But this thief is still the same....

Mudse you are giving me a run for my money. Nice like this kind of talks. I hope i have shown you that i am not 1 of the salty people that cna't win from thief. I mean warrior, guardian and ranger they do have a lot of problems wiht thiefs. I say this because i have the feeling the design of the thief hurts the game.

if you dont have issues with fighting thief while not playing a thief, how come you complain about the class or do you assume you are just so much better player then the ones you kill and the ones that kill you are carried by build?thief desgin might be unfun to play against but is still balanced. your proposed either high damage or high mobility sounds to me like you want an overall nerf instead of a shift to focus more on one. the general powerlevel of a thief in relation to other professions tho is fine.

@MUDse.7623 said:if you dont have issues with fighting thief while not playing a thief, how come you complain about the class or do you assume you are just so much better player then the ones you kill and the ones that kill you are carried by build?thief desgin might be unfun to play against but is still balanced. your proposed either high damage or high mobility sounds to me like you want an overall nerf instead of a shift to focus more on one. the general powerlevel of a thief in relation to other professions tho is fine.

i dislike the class if it get hard they run or stealth and run i think that is no fun gameplay. The thief that kill me are really good players(most time get them down because they have only 200hp left well they get me down) and don't mind to die agianst them happens almost never(most time on dh roaming) but fighting a theif for 1 min because of the dodges and blocks and resetting the fight that is not really fun you know and that is why i think thief need a rework. Resetting a fight even a warrior can't do that only a thief can. I am okay if they keep the damage, but a it less mobility then. Also you wouldn't hear me complaining if they tune everything down.