So... is there ever going to be any plans in removing Damage Aura? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

So... is there ever going to be any plans in removing Damage Aura?

I know it's been around for a long time. But this just gets more and more frustrating to see when you're in a situation where you shouldn't be taking damage. Say you're off in the back picking up a downed team mate, you backed off a bit to use ranged weapons because the area around the boss got spoopy, Or you backed off to go deal with some mechanics that are far from the boss. But you're still taking damage for absolutely no reason.

It's even more annoying when you realize that this is probably the primary reason why a druid is around in the first place. As most of the damage I had incoming wasn't from the boss, but actually for just existing for three seconds at a time.

Comments

  • Haleydawn.3764Haleydawn.3764 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2018

    I take it you’re talking about Agony pulses when you reach a certain point in a fractal. It’s called an agony check. Some attacks from foes will also apply Agony. And it won’t be going anywhere anytime soon.
    Make sure you have the right amount of Agony Resistance for the Fractal scale you’re attempting. You will then take 1% damage from it.

    The above was written as part of an attempt to waste time.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Haleydawn.3764 said:
    I take it you’re talking about Agony pulses when you reach a certain point in a fractal. It’s called an agony check. Some attacks from foes will also apply Agony. And it won’t be going anywhere anytime soon.
    Make sure you have the right amount of Agony Resistance for the Fractal scale you’re attempting. You will then take 1% damage from it.

    raids bosses have passive pulsing damage aura

  • Or it could be lag?

  • Haleydawn.3764Haleydawn.3764 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2018

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Haleydawn.3764 said:
    I take it you’re talking about Agony pulses when you reach a certain point in a fractal. It’s called an agony check. Some attacks from foes will also apply Agony. And it won’t be going anywhere anytime soon.
    Make sure you have the right amount of Agony Resistance for the Fractal scale you’re attempting. You will then take 1% damage from it.

    raids bosses have passive pulsing damage aura

    Brutal aura on Samorog and Cosmic on Cairn is all I can find. But since raids were introduced you’ve always needed a ‘healer’. It gives variety to the standard dps check to have a support/healing check also I guess. /shrug mechanics are mechanics.

    The above was written as part of an attempt to waste time.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2018

    @Haleydawn.3764 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Haleydawn.3764 said:
    I take it you’re talking about Agony pulses when you reach a certain point in a fractal. It’s called an agony check. Some attacks from foes will also apply Agony. And it won’t be going anywhere anytime soon.
    Make sure you have the right amount of Agony Resistance for the Fractal scale you’re attempting. You will then take 1% damage from it.

    raids bosses have passive pulsing damage aura

    Brutal aura on Samorog and Cosmic on Cairn is all I can find. But since raids were introduced you’ve always needed a ‘healer’. It gives variety to the standard dps check to have a support/healing check also I guess. /shrug mechanics are mechanics.

    Vale Guardian's magic aura too and yes, what Haleydawn.3764 said; mechanics. If the group setup & class you're on allows it, just use the type of heal that doesn't requires you to press the button.

  • @Haleydawn.3764 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Haleydawn.3764 said:
    I take it you’re talking about Agony pulses when you reach a certain point in a fractal. It’s called an agony check. Some attacks from foes will also apply Agony. And it won’t be going anywhere anytime soon.
    Make sure you have the right amount of Agony Resistance for the Fractal scale you’re attempting. You will then take 1% damage from it.

    raids bosses have passive pulsing damage aura

    Brutal aura on Samorog and Cosmic on Cairn is all I can find. But since raids were introduced you’ve always needed a ‘healer’. It gives variety to the standard dps check to have a support/healing check also I guess. /shrug mechanics are mechanics.

    First boss of chains has it

  • anet wants healers to be a thing so not likely they will remove this cancer aura. fortunately we still have fractals and dungeons.

    "clang clang shriiiiek clang!" -Belinda Delaqua
    When I join your LFG

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I like it, it gives healers a guaranteed spot in raids.
    Removing it would force them to rework all bosses to make them not easier (eg people could take 1-2 more dps classes in extreme case)

    First person to reach 35,000 and 36,000 AP.
    killproof.me/proof/kEyr

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2018

    Why? Nothing wrong with giving healers something to do. Damage auras keep healers relevant and place pressure on full glass cannon setups.

    It's why Matthias feels great. It's quite interesting for the healer, feels like triage healing.

  • Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2018

    There's other ways to make healers relevant without forcing it down your throats.

    Changing boss mechanics to deal with players in 'safety'.
    Adding some environmental hazards.
    Giving bosses cleave.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:
    There's other ways to make healers relevant without forcing it down your throats.

    Changing boss mechanics to deal with players in 'safety'.
    Adding some environmental hazards.
    Giving bosses cleave.

    It's not just to force healers, its to make sure you don't just have 10x tanks/DPS and attrition till enrage....That being said, this part of design missed the ball since they wanted "soft" enrages for most fights. Could still be remedied by having a scaling enrage.

  • @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:
    There's other ways to make healers relevant without forcing it down your throats.

    Changing boss mechanics to deal with players in 'safety'.
    Adding some environmental hazards.
    Giving bosses cleave.

    It's not just to force healers, its to make sure you don't just have 10x tanks/DPS and attrition till enrage....That being said, this part of design missed the ball since they wanted "soft" enrages for most fights. Could still be remedied by having a scaling enrage.

    Most tanks don't even stack health, just toughness. From what I've been told, and haven't accepted as fact yet, is that most of the raid bosses deal max-health percentile damage. And they hit hard enough that toughness won't keep you alive for long.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well there is a reason tanks stack toughness tho most bosses go after the guy with highest toughness

  • Alehin.3746Alehin.3746 Member ✭✭✭

    I can imagine anet removing the aura because of complaints like this, then healers stop being a thing and the same people that cried about the aura will complain because theres no healers to heal them after failing mechanics. kek

  • @Alehin.3746 said:
    I can imagine anet removing the aura because of complaints like this, then healers stop being a thing and the same people that cried about the aura will complain because theres no healers to heal them after failing mechanics. kek

    Aren't there players who complain about the bosses mechanics already?

  • Alehin.3746Alehin.3746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2018

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

    @Alehin.3746 said:
    I can imagine anet removing the aura because of complaints like this, then healers stop being a thing and the same people that cried about the aura will complain because theres no healers to heal them after failing mechanics. kek

    Aren't there players who complain about the bosses mechanics already?

    Yup. If anet listened to them, every boss would be like a practice golem with a different model. lol

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭

    Nope no OOC mid fight, i remember back in core tyria we did that in dungeons all the time. You wanna OOC mid fight stay in OW. In organized pve content your supposed to spec properly before the fight.

    Get safe spaces out of spvp, demand real post game stats!
    Gw2 already the easiest MMO on the market if you believe content is too hard its time for some self reflection.
    Stop asking to nerf classes if you PvE exclusively it makes no sense.

  • To be frank this is one of the aspects that bridle the raiding potential of Guild Wars 2.

    It might be a design choice which I thought understandable at first, but being clamped up with your raid constantly, on any boss, even when you're a range capable class feels atrocious on the long run.
    This said, as much as it ruins team composition and boss abilities diversity, most of Guild Wars 2 spell mecanics simply not work with distance, a range class will always do more dmg at close range because of multi projectile spells and most of buffs can only be provided in more or less 300 range aoes.

    So yeah I'm not sure if removing this aura would be relevant in the end since there's no real reason to leave the pile anyway ~

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gravenz.6258 said:
    To be frank this is one of the aspects that bridle the raiding potential of Guild Wars 2.

    It might be a design choice which I thought understandable at first, but being clamped up with your raid constantly, on any boss, even when you're a range capable class feels atrocious on the long run.
    This said, as much as it ruins team composition and boss abilities diversity, most of Guild Wars 2 spell mecanics simply not work with distance, a range class will always do more dmg at close range because of multi projectile spells and most of buffs can only be provided in more or less 300 range aoes.

    So yeah I'm not sure if removing this aura would be relevant in the end since there's no real reason to leave the pile anyway ~

    That just needs to change by changing the rules on range of boon provision.

    Even then, the problem would be healing, as healing is also proximity based.

    The fact is, GW2's combat is way too binary because of the dodge system. Being able to completely negate damage through a single frequently available key press is rather stifling of how ranged vs melee DPS would be balanced. Ranged would be too safe unless encounter designers started operating like WoW and designing mechanics that target different specs.

    I mean, we might see a hint of this with Deimos and Sabetha. What if most fights had elements like these affecting multiple people so comps were forced to bring a mix of ranged and melee specs? It would have to definitely be more complex than just the "stand at range to drop a void zone here", but it would open up the design space for combat encounters.

    It might even make the job of the healer even more interactive as you would force them to reposition depending on which group needs healing.

    Matthias also has a sort of preview into what forcing players to adjust their range could feel like. They just need to take further advantage of it.

  • @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Gravenz.6258 said:
    To be frank this is one of the aspects that bridle the raiding potential of Guild Wars 2.

    It might be a design choice which I thought understandable at first, but being clamped up with your raid constantly, on any boss, even when you're a range capable class feels atrocious on the long run.
    This said, as much as it ruins team composition and boss abilities diversity, most of Guild Wars 2 spell mecanics simply not work with distance, a range class will always do more dmg at close range because of multi projectile spells and most of buffs can only be provided in more or less 300 range aoes.

    So yeah I'm not sure if removing this aura would be relevant in the end since there's no real reason to leave the pile anyway ~

    That just needs to change by changing the rules on range of boon provision.

    Even then, the problem would be healing, as healing is also proximity based.

    The fact is, GW2's combat is way too binary because of the dodge system. Being able to completely negate damage through a single frequently available key press is rather stifling of how ranged vs melee DPS would be balanced. Ranged would be too safe unless encounter designers started operating like WoW and designing mechanics that target different specs.

    I mean, we might see a hint of this with Deimos and Sabetha. What if most fights had elements like these affecting multiple people so comps were forced to bring a mix of ranged and melee specs? It would have to definitely be more complex than just the "stand at range to drop a void zone here", but it would open up the design space for combat encounters.

    It might even make the job of the healer even more interactive as you would force them to reposition depending on which group needs healing.

    Matthias also has a sort of preview into what forcing players to adjust their range could feel like. They just need to take further advantage of it.

    I honestly like this idea.

  • Next thing you know, videos on solo kills :lol:

  • Gravenz.6258Gravenz.6258 Member ✭✭
    edited February 9, 2018

    @Zenith.7301

    That would imply a complete rework of the game-play at this point, thus a rework of every bosses accordingly (fractal included probably). I don't think this is gonna be a thing sooner or later.

    To me there's three missed opportunities that could have eased the issue.
    ° First, a true raiding environement. Sharing boons has been an issue since the creation of raids (especially quickness and alacrity), implying the obligatory presence of druids and chronomancers. As much as most of spells are changed for WvW, spells and auras that share boons in raid could simply be changed to 10 targets (and maybe have their boon sharing radius increased). meaning that other classes could finally be relevant in defined roles and servers would not take a serious hit on the WvW or WvE side of things.
    ° Second, Elit specs. We had new specs comming our way with Path of Fire that could have finally changed the face of raiding since its creation in 2015, bring something new, especially with the new potential of barrier mecanics. Sadly over 10 new specs, 10 are damage oriented which is probably one of the biggest disappointement of this expansion. Some have healing/support variants but nowhere near as efficient as previous specs designed for it.
    ° Third, Rework potential. It's a reality, the trinity is shaped at this point, especially in raid. So many classes have untaped potential in both tanking and healing and they would be viable by reworking weapons and utility spells designed for this purpose in the first place. Then you can bring something new to the table, a different way of healing, from decent range or via heal over time for exemple, a new way to protect and support with barriers or new mitigation mecanics.
    I'm also pointing at the engineer, that has literally kits that can be reworked to be viable in some domains without affecting the whole class (frankly, the healing kit and its bottles that no one ever bother walking on ~)

    In short, as long as we don't get new options, even if they show that boss mecanics can be refreshened with the release of wing 5, raids will inevitably turn more monotonous over time.

  • Flauvious.6195Flauvious.6195 Member ✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:
    Well there is a reason tanks stack toughness tho most bosses go after the guy with highest toughness

    You wouldn't need to stack it for that reason though, everyone in your party has 0 toughness so you'd only need like 1 item or even just food to have the most.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Flauvious.6195 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    Well there is a reason tanks stack toughness tho most bosses go after the guy with highest toughness

    You wouldn't need to stack it for that reason though, everyone in your party has 0 toughness so you'd only need like 1 item or even just food to have the most.

    Would like to see the hand kiter at deimos survive with 1k toughness.

  • Aplier.7829Aplier.7829 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    The fact is, GW2's combat is way too binary because of the dodge system. Being able to completely negate damage through a single frequently available key press is rather stifling of how ranged vs melee DPS would be balanced. Ranged would be too safe unless encounter designers started operating like WoW and designing mechanics that target different specs.

    I mean, we might see a hint of this with Deimos and Sabetha. What if most fights had elements like these affecting multiple people so comps were forced to bring a mix of ranged and melee specs? It would have to definitely be more complex than just the "stand at range to drop a void zone here", but it would open up the design space for combat encounters.

    It might even make the job of the healer even more interactive as you would force them to reposition depending on which group needs healing.

    Matthias also has a sort of preview into what forcing players to adjust their range could feel like. They just need to take further advantage of it.

    The only problem with this is that a game like WoW has very clearly defined specs that can be tagged as "tank" "healer" "ranged dps" "melee dps" and which only function in the way that they are tagged. Thus mechanics are able to be fine tuned to target specific specs based on their tags without causing any issues.

    GW2's specs are much more fluid, and I'd really rather not see a hard trinity becoming enforced. In GW2 the only labels that the game can reliably apply to people in a raid group are "aggro-holder" and "not-aggro-holder", in terms of who random mechanics can or can't apply to.
    Basing the labels off talent trees is straight up out of the question because of how much flexibility there is within each tree.
    With weapon swaps, players can switch between melee and ranged "dps" at an instant's notice, would you want gameplay of "okay, everyone but X swap to your ranged weapon set at 6:30, 5:00, and 3:30" just to bait a mechanic onto one person?
    Would you define "healer" as anyone with over 500 healing power? How would that apply to your water elementalist who doesn't stack any healing power because his base healing is enough? Or what about your new thief who is stuck running some zealots gear you pulled over from your druid, would they be counted as a healer even if they don't doing anything to support anyone else?

    We as players are more than capable of assigning labels to our specs, but without some overly convoluted internal system or a forced trinity (like before a fight starts requiring 2 people to pick up a "tank" debuff, 2 people to pick up a "healer" debuff, 3 people to pick up a "ranged dps" debuff, and 3 people to pick up a "melee dps" debuff), raids in GW2 simply aren't going to function with labels more specific than "aggro-holder" and "not-aggro-holder" and mechanics that any player in the "not-aggro-holder" can take on mid-fight.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aplier.7829 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    The fact is, GW2's combat is way too binary because of the dodge system. Being able to completely negate damage through a single frequently available key press is rather stifling of how ranged vs melee DPS would be balanced. Ranged would be too safe unless encounter designers started operating like WoW and designing mechanics that target different specs.

    I mean, we might see a hint of this with Deimos and Sabetha. What if most fights had elements like these affecting multiple people so comps were forced to bring a mix of ranged and melee specs? It would have to definitely be more complex than just the "stand at range to drop a void zone here", but it would open up the design space for combat encounters.

    It might even make the job of the healer even more interactive as you would force them to reposition depending on which group needs healing.

    Matthias also has a sort of preview into what forcing players to adjust their range could feel like. They just need to take further advantage of it.

    The only problem with this is that a game like WoW has very clearly defined specs that can be tagged as "tank" "healer" "ranged dps" "melee dps" and which only function in the way that they are tagged. Thus mechanics are able to be fine tuned to target specific specs based on their tags without causing any issues.

    GW2's specs are much more fluid, and I'd really rather not see a hard trinity becoming enforced. In GW2 the only labels that the game can reliably apply to people in a raid group are "aggro-holder" and "not-aggro-holder", in terms of who random mechanics can or can't apply to.
    Basing the labels off talent trees is straight up out of the question because of how much flexibility there is within each tree.
    With weapon swaps, players can switch between melee and ranged "dps" at an instant's notice, would you want gameplay of "okay, everyone but X swap to your ranged weapon set at 6:30, 5:00, and 3:30" just to bait a mechanic onto one person?
    Would you define "healer" as anyone with over 500 healing power? How would that apply to your water elementalist who doesn't stack any healing power because his base healing is enough? Or what about your new thief who is stuck running some zealots gear you pulled over from your druid, would they be counted as a healer even if they don't doing anything to support anyone else?

    We as players are more than capable of assigning labels to our specs, but without some overly convoluted internal system or a forced trinity (like before a fight starts requiring 2 people to pick up a "tank" debuff, 2 people to pick up a "healer" debuff, 3 people to pick up a "ranged dps" debuff, and 3 people to pick up a "melee dps" debuff), raids in GW2 simply aren't going to function with labels more specific than "aggro-holder" and "not-aggro-holder" and mechanics that any player in the "not-aggro-holder" can take on mid-fight.

    The weaponswap I suggested wouldn't work because as I said it wouldn't be the simple "single person gets targeted by this at X time" but rather more robust, constant mechanics applied to a preset number of people that you need to fill in with ranged/melee dichotomy.

    So just like in WoW where you would have a healer sit in melee when the game treats them as ranged, it would punish your raid by placing a ranged mechanic on melee.

    It would basically force further demarcation in raid comp. It wouldn't be a trinity because we already have that (tank, healer, dps), but rather it would diversify the styles of DPS you have to bring.

    I realize many people hate the comp building aspect of raids, but I feel if any format should force strategic team building aspects, it should be raids. Raids are not supposed to be convenient to PuG; fractals are there for that.

    GW1 was not subject to this silly notion that any comp goes. You can have multiple classes occupying different roles, but at the end of the day you still had role niches in GW1 that needed to be fulfilled and not something as simplistic as "guy who holds aggro, healer keeps people alive, and DPS".

  • Aplier.7829Aplier.7829 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    The weaponswap I suggested wouldn't work because as I said it wouldn't be the simple "single person gets targeted by this at X time" but rather more robust, constant mechanics applied to a preset number of people that you need to fill in with ranged/melee dichotomy.

    So just like in WoW where you would have a healer sit in melee when the game treats them as ranged, it would punish your raid by placing a ranged mechanic on melee.

    It would basically force further demarcation in raid comp. It wouldn't be a trinity because we already have that (tank, healer, dps), but rather it would diversify the styles of DPS you have to bring.

    I realize many people hate the comp building aspect of raids, but I feel if any format should force strategic team building aspects, it should be raids. Raids are not supposed to be convenient to PuG; fractals are there for that.

    GW1 was not subject to this silly notion that any comp goes. You can have multiple classes occupying different roles, but at the end of the day you still had role niches in GW1 that needed to be fulfilled and not something as simplistic as "guy who holds aggro, healer keeps people alive, and DPS".

    The point I'm trying to make is that WoW's fights can create a white list of what mechanics can target who, because every character is put into a clearly defined specialization with one role. GW2 specializations are much more fluid and thus the game can't apply mechanics to people in such a simple way.

    Instead Anet has to make mechanics that either target players randomly, or that leave it up to the players to decide who handles that mechanic. Cairn is an elegant example of using this system to require ranged characters, by putting a pulsing AoE on the farthest out characters. However it still leaves it up to the players to decide which class of player they assign to that mechanic, be it their dedicated healer or a self-sufficient ranged dps, or even just letting it go onto whoever it hits and have that player stay just outside the stack for a minute.

    Having played both, I'm more a fan of how Anet does it. The mechanics are all there, and we as minmaxing players can make distinctions on which are the best classes to handle any given mechanic. But there's still flexibility available so that less than perfectly built groups are still able to get the job done, just not as efficiently.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2018

    @Aplier.7829 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    The weaponswap I suggested wouldn't work because as I said it wouldn't be the simple "single person gets targeted by this at X time" but rather more robust, constant mechanics applied to a preset number of people that you need to fill in with ranged/melee dichotomy.

    So just like in WoW where you would have a healer sit in melee when the game treats them as ranged, it would punish your raid by placing a ranged mechanic on melee.

    It would basically force further demarcation in raid comp. It wouldn't be a trinity because we already have that (tank, healer, dps), but rather it would diversify the styles of DPS you have to bring.

    I realize many people hate the comp building aspect of raids, but I feel if any format should force strategic team building aspects, it should be raids. Raids are not supposed to be convenient to PuG; fractals are there for that.

    GW1 was not subject to this silly notion that any comp goes. You can have multiple classes occupying different roles, but at the end of the day you still had role niches in GW1 that needed to be fulfilled and not something as simplistic as "guy who holds aggro, healer keeps people alive, and DPS".

    The point I'm trying to make is that WoW's fights can create a white list of what mechanics can target who, because every character is put into a clearly defined specialization with one role. GW2 specializations are much more fluid and thus the game can't apply mechanics to people in such a simple way.

    Instead Anet has to make mechanics that either target players randomly, or that leave it up to the players to decide who handles that mechanic. Cairn is an elegant example of using this system to require ranged characters, by putting a pulsing AoE on the farthest out characters. However it still leaves it up to the players to decide which class of player they assign to that mechanic, be it their dedicated healer or a self-sufficient ranged dps, or even just letting it go onto whoever it hits and have that player stay just outside the stack for a minute.

    Having played both, I'm more a fan of how Anet does it. The mechanics are all there, and we as minmaxing players can make distinctions on which are the best classes to handle any given mechanic. But there's still flexibility available so that less than perfectly built groups are still able to get the job done, just not as efficiently.

    Not really. It's a simple check of "this player has a weapon equipped with 600+ range; the ranged mechanic will be assigned to 3-4 players who meet this criteria; otherwise, it will assign to whoever meets the criteria plus a random selection of missing players who fail this check".

    Cairn does nothing of pushing ranged requirements, because you have a special action key that basically lets you do your thing until the very last moment where you use it to reposition and then quickly run back in.

    In most boss fights you are simply going to blob around the boss, and often where there are mechanics few players will be selected to perform disparate tasks simultaneously. GW2 raid encounters are really simplistic for the very reason that there's little degree in role specialization.

    There are cases such as Arkk where you can overlap the bomb with the green circle mechanics, but it's really rudimentary.

  • Aplier.7829Aplier.7829 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Not really. It's a simple check of "this player has a weapon equipped with 600+ range; the ranged mechanic will be assigned to 3-4 players who meet this criteria; otherwise, it will assign to whoever meets the criteria plus a random selection of missing players who fail this check".

    Cairn does nothing of pushing ranged requirements, because you have a special action key that basically lets you do your thing until the very last moment where you use it to reposition and then quickly run back in.

    In most boss fights you are simply going to blob around the boss, and often where there are mechanics few players will be selected to perform disparate tasks simultaneously. GW2 raid encounters are really simplistic for the very reason that there's little degree in role specialization.

    There are cases such as Arkk where you can overlap the bomb with the green circle mechanics, but it's really rudimentary.

    And what if I were a thief with dagger/pistol? That would meet the criteria of "this player has a weapon equipped with 600+ range" but you sure as hell can't call that a ranged spec.
    How about a P/P daredevil? It's definitely a "ranged" spec in terms of weapon skills, but the rotation itself still has you staying next to the boss to capitalize on 7% damage buff, bounding dodge damage, and melee utility skills.
    Or a power Ranger or Dragonhunter who just happens to be in the longbow part of their rotation at the time the mechanic goes out.
    Which skill would you use to determine if a spec is "ranged" or not? Just having any weapon skill with a range of 600? A lot of "melee" weapon sets still have one or two abilities with long range. Or is it just the autoattack range, and healers like a ventari revenant with melee autoattacks just don't count while healers like druid have to decide if they want to be a target for extra mechanics or kitten their healing output.

    In WoW the "ranged" specs have a 40 yard (equivalent of about 900 unit) range on their attacks, and are designed to have their rotation function at full output anywhere within that range, with only utility spells like stuns or knockbacks having less range. There is no switching between ranged and melee mid-fight, no "half of my rotation is ranged but if I'm not sitting on the boss I lose a bunch of damage". GW2 specs just are not that simple. And nor would I ever want to see them become that simple.

    And I have to disagree about Cairn. Yes, it's special action key lets you zoom around the place, but that's there to get yourself to a green circle to live or get to safety after getting knocked back/teleported out, it has nothing to do with being ranged or melee. If you try to blob everyone on top of each other like you do with, say, Gorseval, then the people with Shared Agony are gonna absolutely shred your group. Who knows, maybe you could put together a composition entirely of barrier and healing and survive it all stacked up, but it's a mechanic that in general is best handled by using people who can function outside the melee blob (aka your ranged players) without having to make the game engine artificially attempt to decide who is a "ranged" and force a mechanic onto them.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2018

    @Aplier.7829 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Not really. It's a simple check of "this player has a weapon equipped with 600+ range; the ranged mechanic will be assigned to 3-4 players who meet this criteria; otherwise, it will assign to whoever meets the criteria plus a random selection of missing players who fail this check".

    Cairn does nothing of pushing ranged requirements, because you have a special action key that basically lets you do your thing until the very last moment where you use it to reposition and then quickly run back in.

    In most boss fights you are simply going to blob around the boss, and often where there are mechanics few players will be selected to perform disparate tasks simultaneously. GW2 raid encounters are really simplistic for the very reason that there's little degree in role specialization.

    There are cases such as Arkk where you can overlap the bomb with the green circle mechanics, but it's really rudimentary.

    And what if I were a thief with dagger/pistol? That would meet the criteria of "this player has a weapon equipped with 600+ range" but you sure as hell can't call that a ranged spec.
    How about a P/P daredevil? It's definitely a "ranged" spec in terms of weapon skills, but the rotation itself still has you staying next to the boss to capitalize on 7% damage buff, bounding dodge damage, and melee utility skills.
    Or a power Ranger or Dragonhunter who just happens to be in the longbow part of their rotation at the time the mechanic goes out.
    Which skill would you use to determine if a spec is "ranged" or not? Just having any weapon skill with a range of 600? A lot of "melee" weapon sets still have one or two abilities with long range. Or is it just the autoattack range, and healers like a ventari revenant with melee autoattacks just don't count while healers like druid have to decide if they want to be a target for extra mechanics or kitten their healing output.

    In WoW the "ranged" specs have a 40 yard (equivalent of about 900 unit) range on their attacks, and are designed to have their rotation function at full output anywhere within that range, with only utility spells like stuns or knockbacks having less range. There is no switching between ranged and melee mid-fight, no "half of my rotation is ranged but if I'm not sitting on the boss I lose a bunch of damage". GW2 specs just are not that simple. And nor would I ever want to see them become that simple.

    And I have to disagree about Cairn. Yes, it's special action key lets you zoom around the place, but that's there to get yourself to a green circle to live or get to safety after getting knocked back/teleported out, it has nothing to do with being ranged or melee. If you try to blob everyone on top of each other like you do with, say, Gorseval, then the people with Shared Agony are gonna absolutely shred your group. Who knows, maybe you could put together a composition entirely of barrier and healing and survive it all stacked up, but it's a mechanic that in general is best handled by using people who can function outside the melee blob (aka your ranged players) without having to make the game engine artificially attempt to decide who is a "ranged" and force a mechanic onto them.

    Stacking doesn't mean on top of each other. You can have the agony people take 1-2 sidesteps and be virtually still in range of melee boon provision from the group. Blobbing Cairn is incredibly simple.

    And you're starting to split hairs here. Obviously D/P thief would qualify as melee by virtue of a mainhand melee weapon. A melee weapon having a 600 range gap closer doesn't immediately make it a ranged weapon, it's a matter of common sense.

    P/P thief and power greatsword ranger play as they do because of a consequence of their poor balancing. They simply do not do good damage in their ranged rotations like an elementalist or necromancer or dragonhunter can with their ranged weapons. That's why they have to incorporate melee gimmicks.

    That's not a strike against ranged mechanics, that's a strike against the balancing of ranged weapons and playstyles.

    I don't buy for one second the claim that WoW is somehow simple (btw, survival hunters have to alternate between melee and ranged attacks, and arcane mages have their aoe tied to melee range, as an example; demonology warlocks used to have their aoe tied to hellfire and immolation aura as a ranged spec as well). WoW and FFXIV have far more advanced raid encounter mechanisms than GW2 has by virtue of its current class balancing and combat limitations (won't even mention how utterly obsolete combo fields/finishers are for the vast majority of them when they were trumpeted as a defining aspect of GW2 combat in vanilla's marketing).

    Simple is when most of the boss encounters consist of loosely blobbling the boss to death because the boon provision system forces melee range, as does the bad balancing of ranged weapons because encounter mechanics can't be bothered to be varied enough to properly challenge ranged weapon users, so players have absorbed this ridiculous mantra that ranged weapons must remain obsolete due to their lack of risk but seem at the same time to overlook the mantra when it comes to their precious elementalist staff or dragonhunter scepter or reaper scepter happening to be the anomaly.

    Weapon and spec variety in a class including ranged weapons would only serve to expand raid encounters, not limit them. People just don't want to be assed with team comps; they want their one size glove fits all spec.

  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2018

    @Aplier.7829 said:

    Or a power Ranger or Dragonhunter who just happens to be in the longbow part of their rotation at the time the mechanic goes out.

    Well I found the problem. Using longbow on DH or ranger in any rotation is terrible, and you are causing your own issues. There is a reason scepter is used instead of longbow, it's simply better. There is a reason sword is better than ranger longbow.

    It's not ranged weapons as a whole that are the problem, its the goal of the weapon. Most ranged weapons are utility or have some sort of utility. This requires that they are given less damage. In addition to less damage for the range. But some ranged weapons are good. It just depends on the class and build in question.

    As for p/p theif? It has more issues than just range.

    And shared agone is NOT best handled by 'ranged' characters. Its best handled by people that can sustain it. IE, the druids, or a chrono, and the kiter, if you have one. Most ranged dps builds cant take a lot of shared agony damage without substantial healing. And you made the mistake of claiming shared agony is somehow 'random' on Cairn. It's not. It's always put on the farthest players from Cairn and can affect up to 3 players at a time. It's incredibly easy to control when the people in the stack arent bad and get ported all over the place.

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    I don't buy for one second the claim that WoW is somehow simple (btw, survival hunters have to alternate between melee and ranged attacks, and arcane mages have their aoe tied to melee range, as an example; demonology warlocks used to have their aoe tied to hellfire and immolation aura as a ranged spec as well). WoW and FFXIV have far more advanced raid encounter mechanisms than GW2 has by virtue of its current class balancing and combat limitations (won't even mention how utterly obsolete combo fields/finishers are for the vast majority of them when they were trumpeted as a defining aspect of GW2 combat in vanilla's marketing).

    Indeed. Haven't played WoW in this decade, but it's probably a safe bet that they haven't gone backwards in their general encounter and gameplay design since TBC. GW2 raids are nice stuff, but myriad small things make you notice that they are a late addition to the game, which has not been developed with properly challenging group content in mind*. The entire buff&boon system, class designs, aggro non-mechanics, healing mechanics and a crapton of other things produce a pretty big obstacle to advanced raid encounters.

    *Yes, I know dungeons were supposed to be this. However, imo they were a spectacular failure in this aspect, with very few exceptions.

    Praise delta!

  • Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2018

    Honestly, there's quite a bit Anet could have done to make GW2's raids more unique to the game, instead of making them generic and comparable. For example instead of focusing so heavily on the group, add a strong focus to the individual and force them to actually KNOW their professions.

    My favorite raids were always the ones that were escorts, or had the players running around the map rather than fighting the bosses.

    Make a map where players are encouraged to spread out to conquered objectives, make this more apparent by starting them off forcefully spread out so they are isolated or in tiny random groups. Make it so each profession is capable of taking unique paths, but only if players actually pushed it to the limits.

    For example, PvPers may know that Professions like Mesmer, Thief, and Engineer are completely capable of crossing large gaps. The thief and mesmer are even able to climb onto walls, or teleport across large gaps as long as there's a walkable path to it. Why not make it so that these specs are rewarded for pushing themselves in such away by enforcing unique paths?

    A Ranger can easily attack two targets at once, so let a ranger be able to open paths.

    A warrior, and an elementalist are incredibly capable at cleaving. Make paths filled with low health enemies with insane damage to make it risky for other specs to charge through this area, but not these professions. Those with cloaking abilities are able to run through this place ignored. Same with those with access to fear.

    Necromancers can corrupt boons or dump conditions very easily.

    The list goes on.

    Not only would you put the player's knowledge to the test, but you'd also make it so players used gear that they're more comfortable with and put speed clearing times on how well they know the map.

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