Weaver Specialization Updates for the Path of Fire Launch - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Weaver Specialization Updates for the Path of Fire Launch

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  • Thanks to all the staff for this elite spec, the changes are pretty good and i am not mad about using water for condi cleanse, but the problem is that the major issues of the class are still there and untouched: 4s cd on attunement change feels a bit clunky (i guess that 3s would be better), the unravel utility skill feels a bit underwhelming it could at least give us a boon or something, and the sword still feels like a fancy looking weaker dagger :/ i really love the concept of sword and the animations but the damage is a bit low especially with this slow AA chain (this is the stuff that troubles me more, maybe more than attunement swap) btw is an awesome concept for an awesome class but those issues can`t be ignored :3

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Every class has been forced> @BlackBeard.2873 said:

    I am disappointed, like every ele, that we will be chained forever to the water-traitline. As with every ele spec, builds now become "So what is the third traitline". Still, I do see at least some decent synergy with both air AND arcana. Obviously, arcana/water/weaver eles will be basically immune to condis (swap air, cure 2 condis, swap water, cleanse 2-3 condis + dodge), use a dual skill and cure a condi, inflict chill - cure a condi), but air/w/w eles might see some play too, as you cleanse slightly less, but get much higher super-speed uptime to stick to foes, and more air-swap procs. Arcana gives you prot and super-duper cleanse, while air gives you mobility and damage. Fire and earth seem to lack true synergy, but perhaps if condi-built fire can see some play for some silly burst builds.

    I am concerned with the continued 4s swap time for all attunements, it really forces weavers into using sword as other weapons just don't have enough attacks to justify sitting in an attunement for 4s without losing effectiveness. Also, dagger, scepter, and staff all rely on really-strong 3-skills in their rotations (which this CD and lock-out of the 4-5 skills on-demand promote), while sword seems to have a LOT of defense (evades, mobility, interrupts) built into the 2 and dual skills, making a build less reliant on on-demand off-hand skill defense access.

    Also...are we really at the point where changing the 3rd hit of a chain skill by 12.5% is really the level of adjustments being made? Most of these changes seem more like QoL changes that you get in a down-quarter balance pass than truly substantial changes. Perhaps they are planning to tweak quickly after people have more time to play with the specs, but the FASTEST anet ever responds to balance concerns is about 6 months.

    You won't be immune to condis lol trust me, you're still removing one condi at time
    You will be fighting against scourges sitting on their shades, mirage condi, firebrand axe burning burst etc etc and all at melee range; you guys can't complain about weaver condi clear when the game has spellbreaker with perma resistance - firebrand spamming condi clear+resistance+full clear condi utilities - druid/soulbeast with resistance- condi immunity stunbreaks-condi dmg reduction traits and so on.

    I don't want to play hard mode in GW2! The trait may sounds OP but for sure condi application is OP for certain atm, condi burst ( 8+ condis on you instantly) behind every corner at every turn...let me play ele in relaxed mode for once, like I can do on guardian/ranger

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • messiah.1908messiah.1908 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2017

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Every class has been forced> @BlackBeard.2873 said:

    I am disappointed, like every ele, that we will be chained forever to the water-traitline. As with every ele spec, builds now become "So what is the third traitline". Still, I do see at least some decent synergy with both air AND arcana. Obviously, arcana/water/weaver eles will be basically immune to condis (swap air, cure 2 condis, swap water, cleanse 2-3 condis + dodge), use a dual skill and cure a condi, inflict chill - cure a condi), but air/w/w eles might see some play too, as you cleanse slightly less, but get much higher super-speed uptime to stick to foes, and more air-swap procs. Arcana gives you prot and super-duper cleanse, while air gives you mobility and damage. Fire and earth seem to lack true synergy, but perhaps if condi-built fire can see some play for some silly burst builds.

    I am concerned with the continued 4s swap time for all attunements, it really forces weavers into using sword as other weapons just don't have enough attacks to justify sitting in an attunement for 4s without losing effectiveness. Also, dagger, scepter, and staff all rely on really-strong 3-skills in their rotations (which this CD and lock-out of the 4-5 skills on-demand promote), while sword seems to have a LOT of defense (evades, mobility, interrupts) built into the 2 and dual skills, making a build less reliant on on-demand off-hand skill defense access.

    Also...are we really at the point where changing the 3rd hit of a chain skill by 12.5% is really the level of adjustments being made? Most of these changes seem more like QoL changes that you get in a down-quarter balance pass than truly substantial changes. Perhaps they are planning to tweak quickly after people have more time to play with the specs, but the FASTEST anet ever responds to balance concerns is about 6 months.

    You won't be immune to condis lol trust me, you're still removing one condi at time
    You will be fighting against scourges sitting on their kitten, mirage condi, firebrand axe burning burst etc etc and all at melee range; you guys can't complain about weaver condi clear when the game has spellbreaker with perma resistance - firebrand spamming condi clear+resistance+full clear condi utilities - druid/soulbeast with resistance- condi immunity stunbreaks-condi dmg reduction traits and so on.

    I don't want to play hard mode in GW2! The trait may sounds OP but for sure condi application is OP for certain atm, condi burst ( 8+ condis on you instantly) behind every corner at every turn...let me play ele in relaxed mode for once, like I can do on guardian/ranger

    just sit on air and AA you will cleanse condi like crazy LOL

  • @messiah.1908 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Every class has been forced> @BlackBeard.2873 said:

    I am disappointed, like every ele, that we will be chained forever to the water-traitline. As with every ele spec, builds now become "So what is the third traitline". Still, I do see at least some decent synergy with both air AND arcana. Obviously, arcana/water/weaver eles will be basically immune to condis (swap air, cure 2 condis, swap water, cleanse 2-3 condis + dodge), use a dual skill and cure a condi, inflict chill - cure a condi), but air/w/w eles might see some play too, as you cleanse slightly less, but get much higher super-speed uptime to stick to foes, and more air-swap procs. Arcana gives you prot and super-duper cleanse, while air gives you mobility and damage. Fire and earth seem to lack true synergy, but perhaps if condi-built fire can see some play for some silly burst builds.

    I am concerned with the continued 4s swap time for all attunements, it really forces weavers into using sword as other weapons just don't have enough attacks to justify sitting in an attunement for 4s without losing effectiveness. Also, dagger, scepter, and staff all rely on really-strong 3-skills in their rotations (which this CD and lock-out of the 4-5 skills on-demand promote), while sword seems to have a LOT of defense (evades, mobility, interrupts) built into the 2 and dual skills, making a build less reliant on on-demand off-hand skill defense access.

    Also...are we really at the point where changing the 3rd hit of a chain skill by 12.5% is really the level of adjustments being made? Most of these changes seem more like QoL changes that you get in a down-quarter balance pass than truly substantial changes. Perhaps they are planning to tweak quickly after people have more time to play with the specs, but the FASTEST anet ever responds to balance concerns is about 6 months.

    You won't be immune to condis lol trust me, you're still removing one condi at time
    You will be fighting against scourges sitting on their kitten, mirage condi, firebrand axe burning burst etc etc and all at melee range; you guys can't complain about weaver condi clear when the game has spellbreaker with perma resistance - firebrand spamming condi clear+resistance+full clear condi utilities - druid/soulbeast with resistance- condi immunity stunbreaks-condi dmg reduction traits and so on.

    I don't want to play hard mode in GW2! The trait may sounds OP but for sure condi application is OP for certain atm, condi burst ( 8+ condis on you instantly) behind every corner at every turn...let me play ele in relaxed mode for once, like I can do on guardian/ranger

    just sit on air and AA you will cleanse condi like crazy LOL

    how so? lol

  • @Bear.3689 said:
    how so? lol

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Polaric_Slash The 2nd attack in Air AA chain gives swiftness.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2017

    @messiah.1908 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Every class has been forced> @BlackBeard.2873 said:

    I am disappointed, like every ele, that we will be chained forever to the water-traitline. As with every ele spec, builds now become "So what is the third traitline". Still, I do see at least some decent synergy with both air AND arcana. Obviously, arcana/water/weaver eles will be basically immune to condis (swap air, cure 2 condis, swap water, cleanse 2-3 condis + dodge), use a dual skill and cure a condi, inflict chill - cure a condi), but air/w/w eles might see some play too, as you cleanse slightly less, but get much higher super-speed uptime to stick to foes, and more air-swap procs. Arcana gives you prot and super-duper cleanse, while air gives you mobility and damage. Fire and earth seem to lack true synergy, but perhaps if condi-built fire can see some play for some silly burst builds.

    I am concerned with the continued 4s swap time for all attunements, it really forces weavers into using sword as other weapons just don't have enough attacks to justify sitting in an attunement for 4s without losing effectiveness. Also, dagger, scepter, and staff all rely on really-strong 3-skills in their rotations (which this CD and lock-out of the 4-5 skills on-demand promote), while sword seems to have a LOT of defense (evades, mobility, interrupts) built into the 2 and dual skills, making a build less reliant on on-demand off-hand skill defense access.

    Also...are we really at the point where changing the 3rd hit of a chain skill by 12.5% is really the level of adjustments being made? Most of these changes seem more like QoL changes that you get in a down-quarter balance pass than truly substantial changes. Perhaps they are planning to tweak quickly after people have more time to play with the specs, but the FASTEST anet ever responds to balance concerns is about 6 months.

    You won't be immune to condis lol trust me, you're still removing one condi at time
    You will be fighting against scourges sitting on their kitten, mirage condi, firebrand axe burning burst etc etc and all at melee range; you guys can't complain about weaver condi clear when the game has spellbreaker with perma resistance - firebrand spamming condi clear+resistance+full clear condi utilities - druid/soulbeast with resistance- condi immunity stunbreaks-condi dmg reduction traits and so on.

    I don't want to play hard mode in GW2! The trait may sounds OP but for sure condi application is OP for certain atm, condi burst ( 8+ condis on you instantly) behind every corner at every turn...let me play ele in relaxed mode for once, like I can do on guardian/ranger

    just sit on air and AA you will cleanse condi like crazy LOL

    Ok then! For the love of god you guys!

    I'd like to play a weaver with sword and only melee range will be applicable so what am I supposed to do against this never ending spam of condis? From shades to marks, firebrand symbols, consecration fire field, chrono condi, mirage....

    If you think the trait is OP for the sake of your virtue...Propose another solution, you're sitting at melee range with the squishiest class in an environment where you get condi bombed left and right at every turn, condi bombed means : 8+ condis on you ( that's 24 AA hits while sitting in air sword....what stopping others from condi bombing you again?).

    Instead than complaining simply because the crowd is doing so...propose another solution.

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • I was hoping to see more of the community perceived issues addressed or at least acknowledged and explained, especially the sword AA resetting, damage, and attack speeds, default barrier amounts, condi cleansing outside of water, and attunement cooldowns. This "slow changes" balance philosophy can make reading these notes really frustrating due to the lack of knowledge on where the class is supposed to end up ultimately (or at least within a year).

  • Lasiurus.4067Lasiurus.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    These changes are really nice, thanks to the dev.
    However, I have some propositions to make.

    1/ Sword auto are REALLY slow & still lack of DPS. It's really low compare to Dagger air autoattack or other auto.
    Elementalist gets 1/2, 3/4, 3/4, It shdould be 1/4 1/2 1/2 in my opinion.

    2/ "Unravel Hexes: Trait has been renamed to Woven Stride. Trait now grants swiftness when inhibiting conditions are inflicted, regeneration when swiftness or superspeed is gained, and increases swiftness effectiveness from 33% to 40%."

    I understand the change, it would have made Fresh Air Ele perma Superspeed & nearly invul to condition.
    BUT with that change we still need to go water line...
    Anet, we REALLY need another branch trait that help us with condi removal.
    I suggest to make this change :

    "Trait now grants Resistance for 4s when inhibiting conditions are inflicted (ICD 15s), resistance (1s) when swiftness or superspeed is gained, and increases swiftness effectiveness from 33% to 40%."

    Resistance is for me the best alternative : can be strong especially with boon duration, BUT can be countered with boon removal.

    3/Polaric Leap : this skill is supercool, but please make it INSTANT CAST then we can combo with it without interruption our skill !
    (for example, Dagger earth 5 + Polaric Leap would be so coool)

  • @Alesthes.4287 said:
    Ok, let's see how the major complaints about the Weaver, widely discussed here and elsewhere after the Demo weekends, have been addressed:

    • Sword auto-attack too slow. Ignored
    • Attunements cooldown too long. Ignored
    • Unravel as a utility skill not adequate. Ignored
    • Increase the barriers to be able to melee with a low health, light armor class. Ignored
    • Improve/make more interesting the dual skills. Ignored
    • Give some condi cleanse without taking the water trait line. Ignored
    • Need for more interaction between the Weaver traitline and all the other traitlines. Ignored
    • Improve sword damage, especially the power component. Got a minor buff to two skills, the rest is unchanged

    Nobody, I guess, expected the elite spec to receive changes and buffs on every single point, but at least something more meaningful and systematic that 2 or 3 minor adjustments. The changes to the Mirage and the Firebrand, in this sense, display much more professionalism and care: they took seriously every single complaint and tried to address it in some way. And, in any case, at least an explanation on why they decided to stick with their previous decision was due. Instead, nothing. I wonder why we even took the time to test this stuff and write down articulated feedbacks.

    I am generally an enthusiastic supporter of this game and I always try to see the things from the point of view of the developers. But this kitten is just bad and disrespectful: don't ask for feedback if you are just going to ignore it.

    feedback doesnt have to be acted on, feedback can be just be looked at and seen, sure its disappointing but the devs might see things differently and while some changes would be nice, in the end its down to them to decide if the feedback is stuff they agree with or not.

  • morrolan.9608morrolan.9608 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2017

    @DanteZero.9736 said:
    I was hoping to see more of the community perceived issues addressed or at least acknowledged and explained, especially the sword AA resetting, damage, and attack speeds, default barrier amounts, condi cleansing outside of water, and attunement cooldowns. This "slow changes" balance philosophy can make reading these notes really frustrating due to the lack of knowledge on where the class is supposed to end up ultimately (or at least within a year).

    It would be really nice to hear from the devs about how the class is supposed to condi clear without water. Ele dev only worked on 1 spec yet the changes are minor compared to other classes where the particular dev worked on more than 1 spec.

  • bOTEB.1573bOTEB.1573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2017

    @morrolan.9608 said:

    @DanteZero.9736 said:
    I was hoping to see more of the community perceived issues addressed or at least acknowledged and explained, especially the sword AA resetting, damage, and attack speeds, default barrier amounts, condi cleansing outside of water, and attunement cooldowns. This "slow changes" balance philosophy can make reading these notes really frustrating due to the lack of knowledge on where the class is supposed to end up ultimately (or at least within a year).

    It would be really nice to hear from the devs about how the class is supposed to condi clear without water. Ele dev only worked on 1 spec yet the changes are minor compared to other classes where the particular dev worked on more than 1 spec.

    Hmm, you want changes like the scourge or the thief?

    The only thing that could use just a little work is Woven Stride:

    Basically it would be better if we can keep the old Unravel Hexes but it should clear all condis, like it was saying in the description

    Lose conditions at a rapid rate while under the effects of superspeed. Gain superspeed when you are inflicted with inhibiting conditions.
    1st sentence: We lose 1 condition each 0.5 sec while under superspeed (this is similar to regen but will drop the need of water trait).
    2nd sentence: Another source of superspeed.

    Resistance is not a boon that should be applied by an ele.

    Wishlist:
    Everything that kills me should be nerfed
    Remove all time gates - I play more than some people yet I receive the same rewards per day/week (PvP/WvW tickets etc)
    ANET developments/events and everything else should be in a schedule with the time I play

    • Unravel Hexes: Trait has been renamed to Woven Stride. Trait now grants swiftness when inhibiting conditions are inflicted, regeneration when swiftness or superspeed is gained, and increases swiftness effectiveness from 33% to 40%.

    Well, might as well stay on tempest for imobilize clear with overload.
    Everything else seems reasonable.
    The only build I can think of that would gain anything from unravel hexes, aura ele, doesn't need unravel hexes...

    As the old worlds fall behind
    Our spirit reaches wide
    With no fear breathing new life
    Awaken from the dark dark slumber

    Wintersun - Awaken from the dark slumber (Spring) - Part II The Awakening

  • The most disappointing thing here is that the auto attack chains on a one handed sword are still slower than most 2h weapons in the game.

    As for the water complaint, we're never going to escape water in competitive settings. Our low HP and armor ensures we're always going to have to build very defensive for any build to be realistically viable as we lack the inherent survivability of other classes. When you objectively look at our high amount of condi cleanse we have most other classes also either have to spec in a trait line or completely change their utilities to be close or on par with what we can do. Just be thankful they've stopped nerfing water every single balance patch.

  • juno.1840juno.1840 Member ✭✭✭

    @bOTEB.1573 said:
    Resistance is not a boon that should be applied by an ele.

    Why?

    Self applied or group applied?

  • Hana.8143Hana.8143 Member ✭✭✭

    Just a quick recap after digging into the new changes :
    We were all theorycrafting a superspeed build before getting our hands on the Weaver.
    All the condi removal by just looking for superspeed was great, but it didn't happen.
    But hey, they decided to hear the fact that weaver didn't have enough cleansing.
    A LOT of skills grant swiftness, so regen, so cleansing.

    If you just take water (X-X-Down) / weaver (X-Mid-Mid and probably Mid-Mid-Mid), you're just have cleansing part of your rotation and THAT, my boyz, is amazing.
    Air line has extra cleansing (Mid-X-X or Top-Down-X)
    Arcana has extra cleansing as well (attuning to air or water) (X-X-Top (dodge water))
    Fire has extra auto cleansing fire / Earth has diamond skin.

    It become much more fun to play when you don't have to think of cleansing and can focus on damage.
    If it's really swiftness = regen 100% of the time, then i'm more than happy about that.

    I miss the time when dodging truly mattered. Now it's just eating HP bar with condis and more condis, but Weaver might be the kind of class you'd need to hit hard if you want to kill it.

    I might have spoke too soon, maybe barrier on dodge isn't worth anymore in this world full of conditions.

  • Seems like a decent place to ask:

    What's the point of the Fire Attunement autoattack chain for sword? I sort of expected that to get changed before launch, but clearly it's intentionally how it is, and I'm not really sure I understand it. The first two hits are miniscule and don't have any special effect to them, no burning or anything, and the final hit deals a decent but unimpressive amount of direct damage and applies a little bit of burning.

    So... why? Why would I ever use that? Earth Attunement's sword chain applies bleeding with every hit and has a non-token amount of physical damage on each hit, too. Why is Fire Attunement's so back-loaded?

  • juno.1840juno.1840 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2017

    @Karl McLain.5604 said:

    • Unravel Hexes: Trait has been renamed to Woven Stride. Trait now grants swiftness when inhibiting conditions are inflicted, regeneration when swiftness or superspeed is gained, and increases swiftness effectiveness from 33% to 40%.

    After sleeping on this, I rather like it. I know people were hoping for a non-water mechanism to purge conditions. However, this rework provides some much needed sustain imho. I feel like the barrier mechanic is not going to be sufficient on its own to keep a fragile Weaver alive. Now we get a fairly easy source of regen.

    As many others have pointed out, put in the water GM trait and we get the condi removal on top of the sustain.

    Although at this point we haven't seen the duration of the regen and the cooldown of Woven Stride.

  • Weaver seems very thoughtlessly implemented. I was hoping to see some real changes for them prior to launch, as having played it during the elite spec beta - I could tell it was very underpowered. These seemingly "slight tweaks" do not seem anywhere near enough, and the core issues are still there.

    1. Dual Skills do not benefit from any of the damage increase or cooldown traits.
    2. Dual Skills do not have interesting effects, and what they do have is not very strong considering their long cooldowns.
    3. The 'Stance' skills are extremely boring, underpowered, and have too high of cooldowns regardless. Nobody is going to be using them.
    4. The elite skill, as well as the attunement CD reduction - has pushed this class into the playstyle of "mash all the buttons you possibly can because it doesn't matter what you're casting any more".

    Not lookin good anet.

  • I've come here like most other ele main's to share my disappointment with Woven Stride.
    PvP ele's will once again be forced into water traitline simply to survive, it's not like condi builds are rare, they're everywhere.
    I was really looking into Unravel Hexes...

    Perhaps we can see the best of both worlds and somehow receive the movement impairing cleanse appear somewhere on our traits? (Not water)

  • juno.1840juno.1840 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bio Flame.4276 said:
    Karl:
    This did very little to address the Weaver's main issues, mainly, "weaving" the attunements is slow, clunky and just plain NOT fun; contradicting traits and mechanics; slow auto-chain; feeling of lacking a coherent, cohesive theme that guides traits/skills/mechanics.

    I am sorry to say that this is a very poor job. You could have done better if you put your mind into it. You have done better than this in the past.

    I think Weaver is good and with some small tweaks great.

    Example 1: Lowering the GCD of the attunements from 4s to 3.5s would help. Keep in mind with arcane we can get to 3.5s right now.
    Example 2: Lowering sword auto-attack chain to 1/2 - 1/2 - 1/2

  • Hana.8143Hana.8143 Member ✭✭✭

    @LoreChief.8391 said:
    1. Dual Skills do not benefit from any of the damage increase or cooldown traits.

    yeah that's sad, I give you a point.

    1. Dual Skills do not have interesting effects, and what they do have is not very strong considering their long cooldowns.

    The CD is ok imo, 12 to 20 is more than enough, considering you're going to do at least a rotation of 4 combinaison of attunements (which is 13.6sec with arcana line or 16 without "if you smash your attunements when they're up, but it's rarely the case.")
    Let's say 15 to 18 sec for a complete rotation of 4 combinaison of attunements, I think it's ok.

    If you're playing sword, fire/water has good damage, and a relativly good burning, fire/earth is gorgeous (nice barrier / burning aoe) earth/air is a nice cc ! air/water has a good range water/earth has good damages and provide range attacks and air/fire looks decent (might be the worst of the 6, but still not that bad)

    1. The 'Stance' skills are extremely boring, underpowered, and have too high of cooldowns regardless. Nobody is going to be using them.

    This is where I should slap you in da face !
    Twist of fate is THE best skill you could wish on ele, break stun ? check / Evade a burst ? check / Granting superspeed (and if traited, cleaning a condition) ? Check ! Two count ? check !
    If you're playing weaver, you might want to be a condi weaver, of a mix of condi / power (I'm actually planning to do that tomorrow, we'll see)
    So primordial stance + Lava skin is sooo strong, you're applying so much burning and bleeding at the same time, and you also have 2 counts and can easily use one each rotation you make.
    Unravel is kinda meh, and stone resonance might not be played that much, but if you take twist of fate and primordial stance, you're golden.

    1. The elite skill, as well as the attunement CD reduction - has pushed this class into the playstyle of "mash all the buttons you possibly can because it doesn't matter what you're casting any more".

    Or it'll be the way to get into fire/fire or air/air or water/water or earth/earth without problem (actually, it is a problem since you got big cd on attunements with few skills to use, you end up smashin 1, and wasting your dps, but you might be able to use it as a counter to the cd, and end up going and get a nice 3 in fire/fire or air/air to get nice damages)

    Not lookin good anet.

    Don't worry my friend, we'll be daijoubu

  • Jekkt.6045Jekkt.6045 Member ✭✭✭

    no buff the the heal, no buff to global attunement cooldown, most sword skills damagewise untouched. i'm a little sad tbh.

  • fuzzyp.6295fuzzyp.6295 Member ✭✭✭

    Was really hoping to see a reduction in the global attunement cooldown or a trait to reduced it at least. I'm assuming that Weaver is meant to be a spec that plays heavily with Fresh Air now with all the superspeed, swiftness traits and whatnot, but I mean... I dunno man. I'm not really sure that these changes are what the Weaver really needed to actually be a worthwhile class.

  • Wraistlin.6072Wraistlin.6072 Member ✭✭
    edited September 21, 2017

    I like the changes. I know hopes where high to have some alternative for condition clears aside from spec'n into the water line, but the fact that there is a different way to clear conditions beyond just attuning water and dodging, or using ether renewal or cleansing fire is nice. As well as not just being a boring passive trait, but something that can be built around. I honestly think it opened up a few more builds, as I assumed water, arcane, and weaver was going to be it. Now this change throws air into the conversation. (Edit: Not to mention that aside from the focus on condi clears this change gives us in rotation sustain with regen, which is huge in and of itself).

    Plus I don't know what base elementalist traits are changing yet. So we don't have all of the same information to draw from as the devs working on the tweaks.

    The only thing that felt really clunky to me is strictly the sword auto attack chain not continuing through attunement swap. If this was something that could be adjusted I feel the smoothness of weaver play would be there, plus the damage should be higher because you are always following through the chain of attacks.

    Looking forward to seeing what was changed with base elementalist when that releases.

  • No changes to barrier? :( :(
    Also, kitten with the Unravel Hexes change? Give me a break... Phataram is absolutely right that water is even more mandatory now. Eles will be effectively immune to condis, but not in the way that anyone wants. We want a legitimately good condition defence that doesn't rely on one single trait in the water line, and especially one that doesn't rely on two traits with flawless synergy. Two balance patches after PoF, you're going to nerf Unravel Hexes because the synergy is too good, and you're going to rebuff Scourge. Then we'll be back to HoT's moronic condi damage with only so many professions having any reliable way to deal with it. As long as you won't nerf condi damage in PvP/WvW and remove/vastly reduce cleanses quantities, I sure hope these extra patch notes on release day include other condition defences in air and fire, so that we can maybe spec out of Water and Unravel Hexes while still being able to survive well enough against a Scourge to put up a half decent fight.

    This is my signature.

  • Regen from swiftness, huh? So basically Woven Stride is substituting for Invigorating Torrents. Nice changes though, I hope sword damage is going to scale correctly with power now.

  • I hope Anet change some skills like Monsoon. As far as i remember from beta (i didnt play stress test) this skill was pretty much useless. Staff water3 is a great heal, air3 is a knock back. Now Monsoon (water3+air3) has no dmg, no heal (only regen boon) and no CC. Instead of being a powerful combination its a useless one.

  • @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @morrolan.9608 said:

    @DanteZero.9736 said:
    I was hoping to see more of the community perceived issues addressed or at least acknowledged and explained, especially the sword AA resetting, damage, and attack speeds, default barrier amounts, condi cleansing outside of water, and attunement cooldowns. This "slow changes" balance philosophy can make reading these notes really frustrating due to the lack of knowledge on where the class is supposed to end up ultimately (or at least within a year).

    It would be really nice to hear from the devs about how the class is supposed to condi clear without water. Ele dev only worked on 1 spec yet the changes are minor compared to other classes where the particular dev worked on more than 1 spec.

    Hmm, you want changes like the scourge or the thief?

    The only thing that could use just a little work is Woven Stride:

    Not at all given how underpowered sword was and still will be, many people have mentioned the auto-attack issue just for example.

  • @Karl McLain.5604 said:

    • Unravel Hexes: Trait has been renamed to Woven Stride. Trait now grants swiftness when inhibiting conditions are inflicted, regeneration when swiftness or superspeed is gained, and increases swiftness effectiveness from 33% to 40%.

    This change is opposite of what was needed. Not only you've created ridiculously strong talent that will be nerfed to the ground soon after launch. You have once again reduced build diversity and forced people into taking trailine that we are bored and fed up with. Seriously its been too long we were forced to pick water.

    The change that I suggest is bring back old Unravel Hexes and apply ICD - removes 2 conditions every X time while under if needed to be tuned town. Slower ticking multiple dispels might prove to be more balanced imo.

  • Azel.4786Azel.4786 Member ✭✭✭

    Thanks for the post, but a few things:

    • First, I think it was a big mistake to not share the full changes that will be made to the class and only comment on the elite spec.

    I seriously believe that the changes to the core / tempest are already set in stone for tomorrow, so it is a bad move to give partial information as we really don't know how the rest will affect the changes that have been posted (it might just be that it does nothing, or in comes a huge Water traitline nerf that jumbles everything - so yeah, not a good move IMHO).

    • On the changes themselves (don't get me wrong, I like the idea of the Weaver):

      1. Auto Attacks SpeedThe first thing that has been commented on a lot. The Auto attacks feel terrible in Weaver, it would have been much better to have a cast time / after cast reduction as a DPS buff rather than a straight %buff. I know this is easier to do (%buff), but I think the flow is much more important.
    1. Global Cooldown is still very prohibitive and goes against the concept of "weaving through the elements", disappointed that this was not changed at all (but I still hold on to hope that it might happen with a buff to the arcane minor, who knows).

    2. Bad damage for a DPSAs mentioned by some, the power component of Weaver is very weak and changing only on Call Lightning (Air Sword Auto 3) and on Quantum Strike and Cauterizing Strike (2 skills that require a full attunement) does not do enough to change this. Damage will still be bad, specially so for a DPS Spec - it seems that the class is made to be a bruiser - literally what we have been playing since forever and what Tempest was designed to be.... a.k.a nothing new.

    3. LeapsThe change to Polaric Leap was very nice and important one. But the change to Earthen Vortex could have come with it becoming a targeted leap, it would help Weaver to "stick to melee" much better and make the skill more reliable.

    4. Stances need help The fix to Primordial Stance is fine and all, but honestly, the only stance that is useful is Twist of Fate (and it is a very good one, albeit I still think the Superspeed should last a bit longer). All other stances are very mediocre and I don't see them being picked at all. The healing skill is bad, fixed primordial is weak, stone resonance gives negligible barrier and unravel is just training wheels. The elite might be half decent for condi specs, but a condi spec would be much better served with the improved FGS we have.

    5. Main one - TraitsAnd now for my biggest beef, Traits: It is sad to see that Weaver traits are not interesting and some feel like the Tempest traits with small changes. None are very "build defining", so it becomes a clear choice of which is the better one like most Elementalist trait lines are - they are unfun and offer no real diversity.

    Adept line:

    • Superior Elements: Plain power buff, nothing interesting. - It is very meh, but will be the go because of the bonus damage that is needed.
    • Elemental Pursuit: Feels just like Air Minor One With Air, but with worse condition to trigger. - Could not exist and would make 0 difference. It won't ever be picked.
    • Master's Fortitude: Is a plain fix to a class design (low HP). - It is a possible contender, but it is actually a crutch trait. A dagger ele had a bit of "zoning" with greater range, but honestly any good player would stick to your face and deal damage anyway so this does not fix the "since you are exposing yourself more" problem. It could offer more interesting stuff like means to get dodge, stealth, endurance regen, etc.... but no, it is just a stat buff.

    None offer any Build defining traits, it has clear winner.

    Compare it with the Scourge, for example, the adapts have a party buff, a damage (with a CD reduction) and a debuff trait - all very build defining and interesting choices that open possibilities - Weaver, on the other hand, is just a pure addition to the math formula that QT will do when the expansion hits.

    Major line:

    • Weaver's Prowess: Increased condi when attuning to a different element. - Again, meh. Straight damage buff for PvE build to swap between Earth and Fire for the damage. Will be the natural pick for anyone playing Power/Condi to do damage (which really you should to do damage with this elite spec the way it is designed).
    • Swift Revenge: Power damage buff - if you are not using Condi / Power to do damage (which is a bad idea due to the low power damage of the spec) it might be picked, specially now with the Woven Stride, but it is only a possible PvP / WvW trait if you are only doing power damage, because Weaver's Prowess is far superior in the damage aspect.
    • Bolstered Elements: Stability when using a stance and activate lesser stone resonance (a bad stance made even weaker). - Meh trait for makeshift survivability. You will probably only slot One with Air (which doesn't even get a CD reduction) to gain 3s of stability (1 you are just spinning in the air) and a bad barrier every now and then.

    Again, none are build defining. It is just "take this trait to do more damage", which is not a very interesting trait (like offering different types of condi at least). 2 could be completely thrown out if the weapon skills get a damage buff, and the last trait could again not existing and people wouldn't even notice it was gone.

    Compare it with Scourge again, you get (i) great party support with gigantic barrier application; (ii) reduced CD on new skill type and added damage through unique way (nice combo); (iii) boon corrupt for added damage and boon denial changes. All of these offer again, build defining choices.

    Grandmaster line:

    • Elements of Rage: Straight damage buff. - Again, meh. It will be picked because it does damage and that is it.

    • Woven Stride: The bonus to speed is nice and all and I don't think removing the previous trait was a bad move - the amount of condi cleanse the class would have if it was made to clear all condi would be insane (just stop to think on the combo Water / Earth / Weaver traits), but the thing is, isn't the insane condi cleanse the exact problem?

    Ele has no way of dealing with condi except for cleansing (and we get that thrown at us via traits that makes it not be possible to give us any other way to deal with condi), so why keep doing this? Why not offer things like condi transfer skills / traits or means of gaining resistance? Both are interesting choices and I think the gaining resistance route would be an interesting one because it does not add to condi cleanse (meaning we won't be just removing everything) and provides counterplay to the other player via boon strip / boon corrupt.

    And it must also be said, Woven Stride without Water trait line is just a terrible terrible Grandmaster - which is only build defining in the sense that you must take Water traitline for this to actually be a decent trait. This type of thing is fine for Adept / Major traits, but a Grandmaster one should stand by itself.

    • Invigorating Strikes: Very very low barrier and a 3s vigor? This is just plain terrible, it gives less vigor than Renewing Stamina an Arcane adept trait and the barrier is imperceptible!

    And here we end with nothing to define our build, the go to will be Elements of Rage (absolute in PvE) or, only in PvP or WvW, Woven Stride if condi gets absolute insane in the meta and Water traitline doesn't cover it by itself.

    Ending the comparison with Scourge, again we have the concept of (i) party buff; (ii) damage; (iii) debuff. All very build defining and mostly unique in flavor.

    The Weaver traits are disheartening....

  • Mr Godlike.6098Mr Godlike.6098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2017

    Personally I am glad that after years we got finally dev post on ele sub-forum.

    Unfortunately non of this changes will improve anything in case of pvp weaver...also...i don't know what to say! WHY Unravel Hexes was changed? Why?! Old trait was great way to make air viable for FA builds to be sustainable or anything else that didn't want to take water! WHAT's wrong with build diversity!?

    So Healbot stays META in PoF as also only viable build in higher pvp tiers...I played healbot enough in last YEARS so i'am not buying PoF.

  • If Weaver requires to have GCD, then I'd have scrapped the Weaver idea altogether during the design phase. On a fast paced game as GW2, having a GCD is lazy, backwards design.

    Change it.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I can't wait to run and cleanse <3

  • All classes have a mandatory traitline.... for warriors is defense, for engis is alchemy etc etc and for us is water. No problem with that and really happy with Woven Stride. Lets go over that.

    Weaver now have a really good synergy with other traitlines and Im really happy for that!! Wp devs!

    Other thing are far more important, like reduce the global ICD on attunements or add a middle separate ICD of to full attune who to flow better. That will be great.

    Also, increase the Dps on sword reducing the cast times on AA making them like other proffesions 1/2 1/2 1/2 or something like that.

    Nothing else need to be changed for me atm.

  • Kaizoku.1298Kaizoku.1298 Member ✭✭✭

    Weaver will still be weak in PvP like this.

  • @Kaizoku.1298 said:
    Weaver will still be weak in PvP like this.

    And weaker still in PvE. Worse, it won't be fun to play a class with a stupid GCD on a game that doesn't have none.

  • juno.1840juno.1840 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2017

    Oh my, so much salt :) -- I like what I see in Weaver! Despite many of the "sky is falling" posts, there will be lots of players running on Weaver and enjoying it (reference https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/1702/poll-which-is-your-favorite-path-of-fire-elite-specialization/p1 which shows almost 10% of players, which is nearly an equal split for 9 professions).

    Anyone that has played GW2 for more than a few months knows the game is constantly evolving. I expect Weaver to get better with time as the developers iterate on the design.

  • Remeber that Tempest was far worse than weaver on launch

  • @Leggendalex.4659 said:
    Remeber that Tempest was far worse than weaver on launch

    Waitwut? PVE context? Coz it was Top Tier in PvP and WvW modes esp with the uncapped buffs and pre Diamond Skin nerf.

  • Why do people keep assuming there are going to be Core changes when PoF drops? Source plz.

  • @ShadowRain X.8159 said:

    @Leggendalex.4659 said:
    Remeber that Tempest was far worse than weaver on launch

    Waitwut? PVE context? Coz it was Top Tier in PvP and WvW modes esp with the uncapped buffs and pre Diamond Skin nerf.

    It was bad at launch, then 1 week later they added stability on minor trait and it was godlike.

  • @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:
    Why do people keep assuming there are going to be Core changes when PoF drops? Source plz.

    As posted by the anet OP:

    There will be a couple more release notes on launch day for the core profession, but we want to deliver the Weaver information a little early so you can know what changed.

  • cgMatt.5162cgMatt.5162 Member ✭✭✭

    When you need 2 grandmaster traits to work as one grandmaster trait. FeelsBadMan

  • @ShadowRain X.8159 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:
    Why do people keep assuming there are going to be Core changes when PoF drops? Source plz.

    As posted by the anet OP:

    There will be a couple more release notes on launch day for the core profession, but we want to deliver the Weaver information a little early so you can know what changed.

    Oh wow, I feel incredibly stupid now. Think I'm going to go crawl back in my hole and sulk....

    Guess I skipped straight to the fixes and missed it. Now I'm really worried about the hidden changes.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ApaWanka.2698 said:
    All classes have a mandatory traitline....

    >
    That is actually incorrect.
    What you should have said is all META builds have a mandatory traitline.
    You can make builds that are still successful on a lot of classes and skip the most taken traitline.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Azel.4786Azel.4786 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2017

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @ShadowRain X.8159 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:
    Why do people keep assuming there are going to be Core changes when PoF drops? Source plz.

    As posted by the anet OP:

    There will be a couple more release notes on launch day for the core profession, but we want to deliver the Weaver information a little early so you can know what changed.

    Oh wow, I feel incredibly stupid now. Think I'm going to go crawl back in my hole and sulk....

    Guess I skipped straight to the fixes and missed it. Now I'm really worried about the hidden changes.

    Well, don't be. There were actually nothing relevant for the elementalist.

    Feels bad - I seriously hope they take a close look at Weaver traits soon - they are just not fun and not build defining.

    Edit: I wonder what happened to the Barrier application being included in Earth Traitline that WP commented in one of his videos.... guess it didn't make the cut.

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