BrokenGlass.9356 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 "Confusion: Heavily reweighted damage from this condition's base damage-over-time component to the damage-on-skill-use component. The condition-damage contribution has been removed from the damage-over-time component and redistributed into the damage-on-skill-use component. This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW."What does this mean practically? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chyro.1462 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Essentially Confusion does more damage when the one that is afflicted by it uses skills, but does less over-time damage when they don't use skills.But I guess you mean clarification about the split between PvE and PvP/WvW. Doesn't really say which part this change applies to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genesis.5169 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 It also means since are condition duration on all confusion has been reduced skills means less procs on said actions which means even less damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 The most worrying is the "condition-damage contribution has been removed from the damage-over-time component and redistributed into the damage-on-skill-use component" (meaning: condition damage stat no longer applies to that part of confusion damage). If it applies to PvE (the patch notes are not clear on that), it means Confusion has been completely gutted in PvE (where mobs don't use skills as often, so the damage over time was a major part of confusion damage).I can only hope that all and every of those confusion changes apply to pvp only. Otherwise condi mesmer, for example, is likely dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperadordf.2687 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Less DPS, more Damage on skill useThis nerf is toooOOOOOooo bad.It should’ve been split between PvP/WvW and PvE like the other ones.But we’ll see if Power Mesmer in Raids will be viable now. I hope it is. Otherwise, time to put up my Mesmer and pick up an Elementalist :disappointed: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 @Imperadordf.2687 said:Less DPS, more Damage on skill useMobs in PvE don't use a lot of skills at all, so that part of confusion damage is negligible. Also, that change applying also to PvE confirmed. Clone mirage is effectively dead as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 @Imperadordf.2687 said:Less DPS, more Damage on skill useMobs in PvE don't use a lot of skills at all, so that part of confusion damage is negligible. Also, that change applying also to PvE confirmed. Clone mirage is effectively dead as a result.I cant think why you would want to use confusion in pve in the first place since like you said mobs don't attack that often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 @Stand The Wall.6987 said:@Imperadordf.2687 said:Less DPS, more Damage on skill useMobs in PvE don't use a lot of skills at all, so that part of confusion damage is negligible. Also, that change applying also to PvE confirmed. Clone mirage is effectively dead as a result.I cant think why you would want to use confusion in pve in the first place since like you said mobs don't attack that often.That was a large part of condi mesmer (for example) damage, since up to now large part of the damage came from damage-over-time component. Which got gutted to near zero now.Notice, that this damage-over-time component got introduced at some time specifically because confusion originally was useless in PvE. Now it's useless once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasC.1056 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Confusion has been severly gutted in all game modes, and condi mesmer, whose confusion was the main source of damage, will be a huge hassle to play now.I can understand the removal of the DoT part of confusion, eventhough, as @"Astralporing.1957" said, it was the most significant part of damage in PvE where foes don't use skills as often. That's not what bothers me most.The thing is : we got some times ago a "massive conditions overhaul", where we were explained that conditions were supposed to be damage over time, ramping damage, shouldn't be bursty etc. And now, confusions gets nerfed in its DoT aspect and all the conditions duration have been severly reduced.The condition changes are going against the idea of DoT, against the idea of ramping damage (because short durations), which will result in an overall more bursty behaviour. It goes in the exact opposite way of the last conditions overhaul.Now, I'm not saying condi mesmer was perfect, and there has been lots of complains for a reason, but... Isn't that an issue with consistency ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 yeah I get it. imo all they gotta do is up the dmg multiplier and voila its good in pve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrokenGlass.9356 Posted February 6, 2018 Author Share Posted February 6, 2018 Do they expect condi mesmer to get by with bleeds and (hahahaha) burns?Err... Gonna have to test this tonight. Kinda bummed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrokenGlass.9356 Posted February 6, 2018 Author Share Posted February 6, 2018 @Robert Gee.9246What was the thinking behind the changes to confusion? I personally think this is a great idea for pvp and wvw... But, isn't this a huge nerf for pve? Are the modes split? The ticking damage doesn't use the condition-damage stat? Does it use power? Will the activated damage component be enough to justify the loss of the damage ticks? Like... When Samarog does his slam attack, am I gonna see a 40k damage spike from my confuse stacks? If the ticks aren't affected by condi damage... Does this mean you intend power builds to stack confuse? With the slow attack speed of PvE bosses, how was this change justified? Power mesmer has, historically, been low dps. Now that the primary damage output of condi has been nerfed, where are we expected to get our high damage PvE spec from? Shatter spam with greatsword? (guessing from a cursory reading of traits) Note: I'm not opposed to the change. It may be for the better. Honestly I miss my giant confuse ticks from the original version of the condition. Which, this is more reminiscent of. I just don't understand why the primary damage condi for mesmer wouldn't scale off of your primary damage stat. (unless it scales of power... Or can crit... Or something.)I would love to hear the design ideas behind the change. I love every other change to mesmer, and can't wait to play with it... But I've run condi sense launch... Even when condi mesmer sucked hard. I've been enjoying the recent balance. I want to enjoy the new balance (with my expensive fully geared vipers stuff....) I'm just not sure I won't be abandoning all confusion users in favor of deadeye and Weaver. (which I understand is part of the point here. But please... Please give me a reason to play both.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walhalla.5473 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 I would say. Split it even more. Make confusion ticking stacking with condi damage again for PvE. This clear PvP change guts Condi Mirage. Mobs aren't using skills fast enough to make use of the "on skill use" stuff of confusion. I can understand that change for PvP and WvW, but PvE is a different topic.Edit: Used some food that only gave me condi damage. Nothing changed on the DoT, just on the Skill-Use. Good Job Anet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laila Lightness.8742 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Basicly confusion is terrible in pve but great everywhere else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrokenGlass.9356 Posted February 6, 2018 Author Share Posted February 6, 2018 Yes, sure... Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walhalla.5473 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 @BrokenGlass.9356 said:Yes, sure... Why? Because PvP. ( Hmm that sounds a bit nostalgic ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rauderi.8706 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Still trying to wrap my head around how bad these changes are.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusion hasn't had an update yet, and the data looks wrong anyway:Damage over time (PvE only):(0.06 Condition Damage) + 22 damage per stack per second at level 80.Damage on skill activation (PvE only):(0.0375 Condition Damage) + 37.5 damage per stack at level 80.Should that be 0.375 * Condition Damage?37.5% of condition damage really needs to be pushed up, (and hopefully it was in today's update). Just comparing it to Burning, the scaling should be 45% or more, if we're supposed to wait for slow PvE enemies to attack.I'm less worried about the passive damage, but it really shouldn't removed from Condition Power as a component of damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrokenGlass.9356 Posted February 6, 2018 Author Share Posted February 6, 2018 Yeah.... Confusion: pre patch... Is weaker than bleeding in its ticking damage.So... In pvp were complaining about a stack of bleeds that can occasionally hit you? Do sent it seem like we went in the wrong direction to fix this? I read the PvP forums complaining about mirage. Folks are mad that you get punished for cleansing yourself. Now... You get punished more. And all this at the expense of confusion being close to useless in PvE? I'd like to see a statement from the balance team saying something like "we determined that similar levels of condition damage can be achieved with bleeding and burning after the phantasm changes. Based on the average attack speed of bosses in fractals and raids, the activated damage of confusion should account for 66% of the damage it did before. We felt that mirage should be less one dimensional and lean less on only one condition."Hopefully with better answers that I came up with. I still can't fathom the 'why' of decoupling a damaging condition from condition damage. I mean... I want stat investment to feel useful. Up until this patch, it always has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 @"BrokenGlass.9356" said:Yeah.... Confusion: pre patch... Is weaker than bleeding in its ticking damage.So... In pvp were complaining about a stack of bleeds that can occasionally hit you? Do sent it seem like we went in the wrong direction to fix this? I read the PvP forums complaining about mirage. Folks are mad that you get punished for cleansing yourself. Now... You get punished more. And all this at the expense of confusion being close to useless in PvE? I'd like to see a statement from the balance team saying something like "we determined that similar levels of condition damage can be achieved with bleeding and burning after the phantasm changes. Based on the average attack speed of bosses in fractals and raids, the activated damage of confusion should account for 66% of the damage it did before. We felt that mirage should be less one dimensional and lean less on only one condition."Hopefully with better answers that I came up with. I still can't fathom the 'why' of decoupling a damaging condition from condition damage. I mean... I want stat investment to feel useful. Up until this patch, it always has. Absolutely agree.. this nerf to one of the few things that made condi mesmer feel at least a little useful and then.. decouple the actual condition from condition damage which was is always major consideration for condi builds.... so can we expect bleeds and poisons to all be decoupled anytime soon.. heck just go back to making condition damage totally irrelevant as a stat period... clueless beyond belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walhalla.5473 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 The more I think about it, the more it seems that this nerf was accidental. The DoT effect is doing so little damage, Anet could have just deleted it. Right now I'm getting like less than 20 damage per tick, which at LvL 80 is nothing. So I'm hoping that Anet will fix this. ( well its the least I could do ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unicorn Luna.5204 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 "Confusion: Heavily reweighted damage from this condition's base damage-over-time component to the damage-on-skill-use component. The condition-damage contribution has been removed from the damage-over-time component and redistributed into the damage-on-skill-use component. This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW."Yeah this confusion statement was confusing. When I read it I immediately thought they'd taken confusion back to how it was at launch making it all but completely useless for PvE. So I logged into my mesmer and immediately hit the kitty golem, I was happy to see it was still doing DoT but it was doing a hell of a lot less despite the fact I seemed to be stacking more of it without doing anything different. I only just made my mirage and got it into condi gear two days ago so I'm still learning the playstyle and so I haven't been able to learn a rotation to feel competent with it yet but pre-patch I felt the damage from it was a little overkill, unfortunately now I think it's a little underkill. Saying that, I haven't practiced with it against attacking mobs and maybe it'll tick so big on the slow enemy attacks to feel comfortable. I'll be very interested to see where condi mirage stands on the benchmarks - I was very happy to finally have a mesmer build that didn't sit at the "Hardeeharhar! Mesmer? Competitive DPS? Haaaaaarrrrrrr" table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrokenGlass.9356 Posted February 6, 2018 Author Share Posted February 6, 2018 @Walhalla.5473 said:The more I think about it, the more it seems that this nerf was accidental. The DoT effect is doing so little damage, Anet could have just deleted it. Right now I'm getting like less than 20 damage per tick, which at LvL 80 is nothing. So I'm hoping that Anet will fix this. ( well its the least I could do )Agreed. @Robert Gee.9246Was this a mistake? Is this supposed to be split?If not, can you make one of a few changeslet the damage ticks crit. (so power builds might care about it also.)remove the damage ticks and buff the on-skill usage further. (ticks that do almost nothing, not related to our stats.... Like, just own that it's going back to how it was... We can see that this is only a vastigial compromise.)add the condition-damage scaling back in, and split balance for pve and pvp.make power scale the ticking damage.Or something.... Why would any PvE build use confusion, when other conditions are an option?Or... If this was the point, to make PvE mesmer use different weapon sets.... Then a statement of intent would be helpful. At this moment, the best I can come up with theory-crafting while at work, is that I'm going to need to use staff and scepter/torch. Which still has too much confusion. Like... Every time I ambush with scepter the damage variance will be absurd. 8 confuse? Too bad wasted skill. 8 torment? Omg so much deeps!OH! And while using scepter... My auto attack will out dps the 3 skill.... yay! Looks like 'maim the disillusioned' just became mandatory. Oh, wait, just 1 stack. So I do bursts of damage with condis... And my opponent decides whether or not he takes the damage? So... Confuse is now a cover condition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ojimaru.8970 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 @"Rauderi.8706" said:Still trying to wrap my head around how bad these changes are.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusion hasn't had an update yet, and the data looks wrong anyway:Damage over time (PvE only):(0.06 Condition Damage) + 22 damage per stack per second at level 80.Damage on skill activation (PvE only):(0.0375 Condition Damage) + 37.5 damage per stack at level 80.Should that be 0.375 * Condition Damage?37.5% of condition damage really needs to be pushed up, (and hopefully it was in today's update). Just comparing it to Burning, the scaling should be 45% or more, if we're supposed to wait for slow PvE enemies to attack.I'm less worried about the passive damage, but it really shouldn't removed from Condition Power as a component of damage.That formula is correct. Back in August 2017, the much-needed, and long-awaited change to Confusion and Torment for PVE was finally pushed through, i.e.Base damage has been increased to match bleed's base damage; skill-activation damage has been reduced to compensate for this.What I don't understand, and hopefully @Robert Gee.9246 can comment on this, is why are we going back to making Confusion an irrelevant condition in PVE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ojimaru.8970 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 @BrokenGlass.9356 said:Yeah.... Confusion: pre patch... Is weaker than bleeding in its ticking damage.Incorrect. Pre-patch, Confusion damage-over-time was the exact same base and scaling as Bleed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrokenGlass.9356 Posted February 6, 2018 Author Share Posted February 6, 2018 @Ojimaru.8970 said:@BrokenGlass.9356 said:Yeah.... Confusion: pre patch... Is weaker than bleeding in its ticking damage.Incorrect. Pre-patch, Confusion damage-over-time was the exact same base and scaling as Bleed.Appreciate it. I suppose it only felt weaker because of how many classes can spam bleeds. So I was thinking about average numbers of higher stacks. Fair point. However... Confuse is now MUCH weaker than bleed. And can't scale with condi damage gear.(looks like they really wanted someone to use Marshall's gear. Healing on wells, condi damage crap scaling...) The question is: exactly how strong is the activated ability?And will that activation be worth the investment. History of confusion says no. @Robert Gee.9246Sorry to keep tagging you man, but you responded to me back in the HoT days. And, you tend to be sensible in your explanations of intent. Can you please make a statement of intent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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