Why the change to scourge condi?

Dear anet,While I understand wanting to balance scourge for PvP and WvW, we still don't have an official answer for the obstructed issue and with lowering out damage now, perhaps we could get. The ability to use shades and abilities from cover please.

Why change the torment on shade skills? Its a flat out nerf and hurts our Condi damage. While mirage got nerfed for raids especially soul beast Condi is still super strong. Perhaps a reduction of duration to torment and increse the stacks to keep the damage consistatantbut easier to cleanse for PvP, or splits for PvP and PvE.

Nefarious favor!?!?!?! Please bring back 2 Condi cleanse. Please please please, this is such a help for raids in heavy Condi fights, and in PvP. Prevents pure burst. I can understand the corrupt changes but the.cleanse ones were too much when combined with the CD increase.

I hope that some of these changes might get reverted if you see how much our damage will be decreased in ove especially.

Was scourge really that over powered when so many other classes can just burst them down with no recourse (warriors, engineers, shatter mesmers)

Yes, it was really that over powered.

@Zaraki.5784 said:Yes, it was really that over powered.

It was NOT overpowered in PvE. Now it is worthless in PvE. No encouragement for this decision should be given, they should have split these changes. One day it'll be your class getting gutted and you'll wish you had thought a little more carefully about it when it was other classes.

Not for PvE and torment is on the lower end for condi's especially since most necro take sand savant anyway.

2 Condi cleanses on a 10 second CD is not over powered since warriors get it passive in traits and on skills with low CD, along with easy access to resistance.

@Saracen.2691 said:

@Zaraki.5784 said:Yes, it was really that over powered.

Sorry, I was speaking only about PvP

From what I could gather, in pvp at least, it sounded like Scourge was too powerful for the effort it took to play. Like yes, people have pointed out it had its flaws and counters. But it was braindead easy to be good at, and so needed curbing.

Because it's not a class played in pve content by anyone involved in balancing the game.

I can't think of any other reason why you would nerf an already struggling spec in pve. An elite spec that was supposed to have a support role and you nerf one of its most important roles of condi cleansing by 70%. While giving small little nerfs to its already low dmg, while buffing something no scourge or reaper really uses by "1.200%" which makes a 0.0025 coefficient to a 0.03 and then slapping an icd on it to get from utter useless to slightly interesting for niche builds and to utter useless again.

I have no words for this "balance".

The obstructed issue is not a bug. Anet revealed some time ago that they intentionally introduced the LoS check in order to keep the class from breaking WvW and sPvP.

@Saracen.2691 said:

@Zaraki.5784 said:Yes, it was really that over powered.

I don't see a problem with that ... core Necro already sports a crushingly OP'ed Condi build if you want good PVE condi performance. Scourge didn't strike me as the flavour for a condi build in the first place.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Saracen.2691 said:

@"Zaraki.5784" said:Yes, it was really that over powered.

About how much sustainable dps are we talking about with this "crushingly OP'ed Condi build" in PvE on a "Core Necro"?

@Adenin.5973 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Saracen.2691 said:

@"Zaraki.5784" said:Yes, it was really that over powered.

Not really relevant for the purpose I have for it. Never dying > some increase in sustained DPS. Put it this way ... no one here is playing necro because of it's awesome sustained damage builds in the first place :/

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Adenin.5973 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Saracen.2691 said:

@"Zaraki.5784" said:Yes, it was really that over powered.

Yeah, then pls use appropriate descriptions when talking about necro in regards to balance issues. There's no need to make anyone believe that core necro is broken beyond belief in regards of PvE (which is usually killing stuff) and needs no buffs at all.

@Adenin.5973 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Adenin.5973 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Saracen.2691 said:

@"Zaraki.5784" said:Yes, it was really that over powered.

Well actually ... the build I was referring to was already broken before if you played a Scepter condi MM build with Blood Magic ... it's even more OP now with Vampric Presence. I get the whole strategy of denying anything is good on Necro to plead a pity case to Anet, but the fact is that isn't the case. I was specific to saying there was "A" BUILD (singular) that was OP'ed, not the class in general. So no, it wasn't my lack of appropriate description, it was your lack of reading comprehension.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Adenin.5973 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Adenin.5973 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Saracen.2691 said:

@"Zaraki.5784" said:Yes, it was really that over powered.

Okay a Scepter condi MM with Vampiric Presence shreds everything in seconds and is unkillable. Because that' what Overpowered means. "Unbalanced". No real risk for the reward.

There's a reason why no one plays bunker builds in fractals or any other pve content where balance actually matters. The risk may be low but the reward is almost not existent. In other words it doesn't do damage.

I don't see what your trying to tell me. If you play the build I'm thinking of, there is indeed very little risk for rewards. You're telling me that's what OP and unbalanced means ... so you agree with me or ?

I don't care what reasons people don't or do play a build; it's irrelevant. THIS build, whether people play it or not, is not balanced, especially now. You're accusing me of deception and not being clear ... I don't see what isn't clear here. Core necro has a build that gives you almost no chance of death that delivers tanking and healing from many minions, allowing you to hang back behind them with a wall of sustainable, many condi application ... nothing about that says what you have accused me of. If my post fools ANYONE that Necro is OK as is ... they just have no clue about the class AND don't know how to read. The bottomline is that you don't give credit where its due. Maybe if you don't assume people, including Anet, aren't idiots (or you correctly read what I said in the first place), you wouldn't have a problem.

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't see what your trying to tell me. If you play the build I'm thinking of, there is indeed very little risk for rewards. You're telling me that's what OP and unbalanced means ... so you agree with me or ?

I don't care what reasons people don't or do play a build; it's irrelevant. THIS build, whether people play it or not, is not balanced, especially now. You're accusing me of deception and not being clear ... I don't see what isn't clear here. Core necro has a build that gives you almost no chance of death that delivers tanking and healing from many minions, allowing you to hang back behind them with a wall of sustainable, many condi application ... nothing about that says what you have accused me of. If that fools ANYONE that Necro is OK as is ... they just have no clue about the class.

Unbalanced would mean unkillable and hitting like a truck. A condi MM build may be tanky but it doesn't deal nearly enough dmg to call it unbalanced. It is not overpowered. It's a sitting duck, with no mobility, blocks, evades, invulnerabilities, reflects, or massive group support and no it also doesn't shred enemies.

It's just another bunker build, something you play in pve if you stand around afk farming the 3 ice spiders on your spot in bitterfrost-frontier.

OK ... you can say whatever you want about your definition of unbalanced ... and I can to. Ironic that you're arguing with me about what my definition is ... based on what yours is. It's not even relevant to the discussion. The build does some things in the game that go beyond AFK farming ice spiders in BFF; being sensational doesn't lessen what the build is capable of doing. If you just want to relegate it down to a bunker build to win an argument, so be it. I'm not here to argue with you about definitions. I can say that you should probably take less offense to the idea that necro can actually excel at doing something; getting bent out of shape serves no purpose, unless your goal is just to play wordgames.

Clearly you've drank the meta koolaid. I'm not going to change that, but I will say that if your whole idea of what is balanced is based on what constitutes optimized builds in instanced, team content, you're in for a shock EVERY SINGLE balance patch.

2k LF cost for 1 condi removal ...

enough said

Condi MM buikds may work solo pve but not in raids and Definatly not in PvP.

One build that makes doing PvE "easy" isnt what things should be balnced around, especially cuz every class can go tank and support and still kill everything

Nerfing the Condi that comes out if punishment skills and reducing the "support" that scourge could use hinder the class as a whole.

Thr problem is that necro has been "meh" since launch. Reaper was "a little better than meh" for a time untill Condi ranger and warrior took over. Condi scourge was finally "good" for a while, then got balanced to "just barely good" and now is back to "meh".

He'll Condi rev is beating necro in viable dps in raids. All in all the necro has been weighed down by the decisions of anet. It hurts to feel like I am literally being held back by the developers because of 1 or 2 things that only seem "broken"

@"Crinn.7864" said:The obstructed issue is not a bug. Anet revealed some time ago that they intentionally introduced the LoS check in order to keep the class from breaking WvW and sPvP.

It's funny cause Meteor Shower doesn't bother with obstructed and hits really really hard. Lava font is fire and forget, and can hit super hard.Pretty sure if i can still see you I shouldn't be obstructed, but any little bush, tree, or rise causes "obstructed" to pop up. Don't remember this with my ranger, rev, beserker, DH, ele, or renegade. But yeah Scourge would be gamebreaking without this feature.

@Kaiser.9873 said:

@"Crinn.7864" said:The obstructed issue is not a bug. Anet revealed some time ago that they intentionally introduced the LoS check in order to keep the class from breaking WvW and sPvP.

yea elle's are't "broken" with aoe skills being able to hit behind walls, invulnerability, tellports and boons out the ass.

thieves and rev's can telleport up entire walls in pvp to burst down a target, but being able to hit someonefrom behind a wall with 200 damage from shade skill 1 is op ><

@Kaiser.9873 said:

@"Crinn.7864" said:The obstructed issue is not a bug. Anet revealed some time ago that they intentionally introduced the LoS check in order to keep the class from breaking WvW and sPvP.

Meteor Shower has a 30 seconds cooldown and a 3.75 second cast time.

Before shade obstruction it was possible for a group of sand savant Scourges to completely cover all of the walls of a structure in WvW with shades and maintain that coverage indefinitely, thus rendering defense of structures largely impossible. In sPvP you also had Scourges taking advantage of the huge savant radius to nuke people through walls.

@Crinn.7864 said:The obstructed issue is not a bug. Anet revealed some time ago that they intentionally introduced the LoS check in order to keep the class from breaking WvW and sPvP.

But now that they vroke the class, they could at least remove the los check

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:The obstructed issue is not a bug. Anet revealed some time ago that they intentionally introduced the LoS check in order to keep the class from breaking WvW and sPvP.

Why? Do you really think that they want us to have fun? NOPE

@"Obtena.7952" said:OK ... you can say whatever you want about your definition of unbalanced ... and I can to. Ironic that you're arguing with me about what my definition is ... based on what yours is. It's not even relevant to the discussion. The build does some things in the game that go beyond AFK farming ice spiders in BFF; being sensational doesn't lessen what the build is capable of doing. If you just want to relegate it down to a bunker build to win an argument, so be it. I'm not here to argue with you about definitions. I can say that you should probably take less offense to the idea that necro can actually excel at doing something; getting bent out of shape serves no purpose, unless your goal is just to play wordgames.

Doesn't every single class have such a bunker build, and mostly even more effective at it as well, one thing is for sure: less selfish!Anyway, if you really are too self-involved to not think further than your arch-nemesis (see you spamming your Necro hate on these forums -mainly just to troll- FAR too much): let's start with the druid, actually not even the greatest in healing, but if you spec them the right way and take a bear (read: 2nd tank), you cant die, you really just can't! You should try it. Let's just not start about well-speced water Eles. If you're really a fan of numbers: There's your best potential healer in the game (definitely now with the regen buff). Revenant, Firebrand ... I don't think I have to explain these, right? ... and oh yeah, everyone keeps forgetting: Armor Rating (it's actually REALLY valuable, and you get it for free on these classes, no-one talks about it tho). Brings us to the highest life pool and highest Armor Rating in the game: Warrior. It's already a base tank from itself, you can spec it completely DEEEPS and still have difficulties dying. If you're new to the game though, there is a complete trait line for you, which makes dying sheer impossible! Oh btw, you still have 2 trait lines left which you can completely spec (actual valuable) support and/or damage (so you still kill stuff better than any Necro can). Mirage and Daredevil: Evade-Evade-Evade-Evade-Evade-Disengage AND doing a truckload of DPS simultaneously! Engi: turret madness and/or now newly buffed Scrapper/elixer defense!And I even dare to argue that 90% of above mentioned builds are all more valuable (definitely in a group) and/or putting out more damage then you're so called "OP" core Necro MM build. Which is a build that's not too bad, (definitely when you're solo-ing PvE maps/story), but still bottom-tier if you really benchmark it (healing numbers/utility numbers/dps numbers).

It all doesnt really matter though, cause that's low-end PvE .... If we talk about the endgame (in PvE at least) we have been the lowest tier forever now, and this nerf only improved that! Now after this patch, why would any raid or T4 fractal party in their right mind ask for Necro's still (with the ONLY exception: Soulless Horror). We're even outperformed by Weavers on Mursaat Overseer and Sabetha (official benchmarks!), now! We're officially the worst of the worst in high-end PvE now!

All complaining of course, cause it's something we're really good at (as Necros :)).Solution: easy: remove internal cooldown on Vampicric Pressence (or make it 0.1 or something), and we're instant optimal for all raids and fractals (would be about time, we have been waiting more than 5 years now)!But we all know ANet is not going to bother (history is a good indicator on that one), so other solution: have you seen Staff/Staff mirage: lots of evades; offensive support for the group (lots of Might and Fury); distortion in the rotation; fully ranged! (if you want to of course, don't have to), AND -drum roll- ... first benchmarks indicate a top 3 (at least) in the highest DPS tiers: