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Condi removal for engineers -- bad to worse


Vagrant.7206

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With the removal of alchemical tinctures and inversion enzyme, plus the subtle nerf of transmute, condi removal for engineers is at an all time low. I suspect that Elixir Gun and/or Elixir C may be an absolute requirement on any PvP build now. Was this an attempt to make cauterize absolutely essential?

Places where they improved condi removal? Advanced Turrets is now anti-corrosion plating, which means you grant cleanse only when granting protection. LOL. Brilliant.

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exilir C super good right now imo with the whole boon/condi update they did.

been fucking around with exilir gun/C and i been fine if not better then ever. Take a good amount of LESS damage now as well , if u got a well FB on the team you'll be able to stay alive at all times with no issues at all imo. Only thing that sucks ass is when going off to 1vs1 that's where you'll need to be careful with match ups however it shouldn't be so bad.

imo this can help change everyone build around overall.

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@Adamantium.3682 said:What patch notes are you reading? There are vastly more condi removal options than before this patch (to your allies also), and more tankiness to stay alive besides.

These ones:

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:Transmute: This trait has been reworked. It now triggers Lesser Elixir C when you have 3 conditions. Lesser Elixir C has a 60-second cooldown and converts 3 conditions into boons in PvE, and 2 conditions into boons in PvP and WvW.

Transmute converted 1 condi every 15 seconds. Now lesser elixir C cures 2 condis every 60 seconds (48 if traited). That's a nerf.

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:Alchemical Tinctures: This trait has been replaced with Compounding Chemicals, which grants up to 240 concentration at level 80 and heals the engineer when they grant themselves a boon.

This was the trait that used to cure 1 condi per elixir used, including auto-traited elixirs and thrown elixirs. This is the biggest condi cleanse nerf, as no elixirs except for C are built-in with condi cleanse now. On the meta holo dodge build, that means a total of 6 (!) condi cleanses have been removed

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:Heal Resonator: This trait has been replaced with Reconstruction Enclosure, which grants protection to nearby allies when you use a heal skill.Advanced Turrets: This trait has been replaced with Anticorrosion Plating, which cleanses a condition from an ally when you grant them protection.

These are apparently supposed to work together, but this only grants 1 condi cleanse when protection is applied from engineer. This is the only "addition" to our condi cleanse. Everything else is a damage/duration decrease, but not cleanse. In other words, our overall ability to deal with condi has been significantly decreased.

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@JETWING.2759 said:

@JETWING.2759 said:Prior update i hadn't problemas with condições removal, and not even did used elixir or alchemy line...Now it's even easy to cleanse.

In what way did it become easier to cleanse?

Heals, Protention, ...

I've tested and confirmed. We have a viable engi support build.

Those aren't cleanses.

It makes all the difference to cleanse when you have 8+ stacks of burning on you. Outhealing that is near impossible.

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I'm upset with the condi cleansing changes. If I had any hope to survive the ridiculous condi zergs in WvW. It's lost with this patch. Does anet just in general hate the Engineer in whole? You did not need to hurt us even more than you already have. Yes you add some stuff here and there. But IMHO. You take away more from my Engineer than any other profession ingame. It is in no way "OP". Did the exlir condi clears seem "OP" to you? I don't get it! I see other professions get so much love. You completely screwed up the way I love to play my Engi. What? Too many still running Scrapper instead of Holosmith? I'm a 10-11 year GW player. I'm your bread and butter. I play my Engi only. I don't care if you (Anet) doesn't like this character that you created 6 years ago. It's the least played in game for a reason. You take and don't give correctly. Show it the attention it deserves. And I/We deserve! If I got half the love a Necro got. I would be ecstatic. You really confuse me on where this profession is going. I get the feeling you wish you could throw it in the trash. Due to your actions in some of these updates. I don't plan on leaving GW2 or my Engineer. I'll continue to play it good or bad. I would just rather -Good-. I know some of you don't agree. But the others who run theirs similar to mine. Get what I'm saying.

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Condi removal changes to engineer are just horrible. Previously if you had alchemy line selected, consuming every elixir (via trait or by using skill, like mortar #5, elixir gun #5 or any elixir skill), removed a condition. This is no longer true. The new transmute is also significantly worse in long term-situations as it triggers only 48 seconds and cleanse transmutes mere 2 conditions in WvWvW.

Engineer wasn't meta for WvWvW. Now it is trash tier. Guardian and necromancer have always been meta in WvWvW, 5.5 years in a row. I guess Arenanet really has some favored professions.

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@Deniara Devious.3948 said:Condi removal changes to engineer are just horrible. Previously if you had alchemy line selected, consuming every elixir (via trait or by using skill, like mortar #5, elixir gun #5 or any elixir skill), removed a condition. This is no longer true. The new transmute is also significantly worse in long term-situations as it triggers only 48 seconds and cleanse transmutes mere 2 conditions in WvWvW.

Engineer wasn't meta for WvWvW. Now it is trash tier. Guardian and necromancer have always been meta in WvWvW, 5.5 years in a row. I guess Arenanet really has some favored professions.

Transmute only converted a single incoming condi rendering it useless versus any condi spec and even worse in larger scale fights in wvw where as the new trait will clear a whole stack this is a massive buff not a nerf.

Elixirs were never a thing for group content in wvw and atleast now scrapper is in a much better position for wvw just take a look at medic gyro

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@ukuni.8745 said:

Condi removal changes to engineer are just horrible.
Previously if you had alchemy line selected, consuming every elixir (via trait or by using skill, like mortar #5, elixir gun #5 or any elixir skill), removed a condition. This is no longer true. The new transmute is also significantly worse in long term-situations as it triggers only 48 seconds and cleanse transmutes mere 2 conditions in WvWvW.

Engineer wasn't meta for WvWvW.
Now it is trash tier. Guardian and necromancer have always been meta in WvWvW, 5.5 years in a row. I guess Arenanet really has some favored professions.

Transmute only converted a single incoming condi rendering it useless versus any condi spec and even worse in larger scale fights in wvw where as the new trait will clear a whole stack this is a massive buff not a nerf.

Elixirs were never a thing for group content in wvw and atleast now scrapper is in a much better position for wvw just take a look at medic gyro

Did you even read the patch notes? The new transmute will only convert 2 conditions in WvWvW and has very long cooldown. Here is an extract from the patch notes:Transmute: This trait has been reworked. It now triggers Lesser Elixir C when you have 3 conditions. Lesser Elixir C has a 60-second cooldown and converts 3 conditions into boons in PvE, and 2 conditions into boons in PvP and WvW.

I have played core engineer for over 3.5k hours in WvWvW. Now I feel the core class really is gutted.

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@Schlitz.8207 said:All these new changes to the trait lines, Alchemy and Inventions, could have been wrapped up in idk say a new medkit re-work or am I crazy? Probably crazy.

Sadly medkit is still the same. Even after thousands of hours of use it feels very clunky and slow to use and using it consumes big part of the time (not spending doing any damage or anything else).

Now some of the alchemy line traits are really weak e.g.Comeback Cure (new Master level trait, giving super short regen to allies = useless)Purity of Purpose (GM trait with 10 ICD)This in addition to this joke of a trait:Health Insurance (Outgoing healing to allies is increased by 33 % while using a med kit)

Generally such weak altruistic which don't affect the user, only allies, aren't going to be picked up by players, not even in WvWvW group setting. Firebrand and core shout guardian are totally superior in this respect and far easier to play.

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@Deniara Devious.3948 said:

Condi removal changes to engineer are just horrible.
Previously if you had alchemy line selected, consuming every elixir (via trait or by using skill, like mortar #5, elixir gun #5 or any elixir skill), removed a condition. This is no longer true. The new transmute is also significantly worse in long term-situations as it triggers only 48 seconds and cleanse transmutes mere 2 conditions in WvWvW.

Engineer wasn't meta for WvWvW.
Now it is trash tier. Guardian and necromancer have always been meta in WvWvW, 5.5 years in a row. I guess Arenanet really has some favored professions.

Transmute only converted a single incoming condi rendering it useless versus any condi spec and even worse in larger scale fights in wvw where as the new trait will clear a whole stack this is a massive buff not a nerf.

Elixirs were never a thing for group content in wvw and atleast now scrapper is in a much better position for wvw just take a look at medic gyro

Did you even read the patch notes? The new transmute will only convert 2 conditions in WvWvW and has very long cooldown. Here is an extract from the patch notes:
Transmute: This trait has been reworked. It now triggers Lesser Elixir C when you have 3 conditions. Lesser Elixir C has a 60-second cooldown and converts 3 conditions into boons in PvE, and 2 conditions into boons in PvP and WvW.

I have played core engineer for over 3.5k hours in WvWvW. Now I feel the core class really is gutted.

The new trait dosent work like transmute, it now clears 2 conditions when you have 2 conditions, transmute only cleared 1 incoming condition which was only 1 stack of a condition the new one can potentially clear a whole stack of a single condition now how can you not see that as a buff.

Also ive played engineer for well over 4k hours havnt checked in a while so its probly over 5k now.

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I don't think it's terrible. With the other profession changes, Scrapper can sustain against PoF specs and not hard countered by everything (condi especially).I've been playing around with this: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/27543/theorycrafting-scrapper-is-a-bunker-god-again It's been pretty good at supporting PoF specs in PvP as well as being sustainable like Pre-PoF. Obviously the goal isn't damage.

There are some changes that will really help it get there on the cleansing front (which I think is almost there with the changes):

  • Medic Gyro healing pulse should trigger Cleansing Pulse (seems only the initial does).
  • Purge Gyro needs to be stronger or untargetable - It is far too squishy and countering it is as simple as just attacking in it's direction.
  • Transmute should have a lower recharge

As mentioned in the notes, Scrapper is a tank spec... and I think addressing Gyros would solve the issue with cleanses not being as effective as it can. Outside of Scrapper you risk making Holosmith too powerful. Seems like they want to push Core as conditional sustained damage, Scrapper as tank/bruiser, and Holosmith as physical burst damage.

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like... i know it's completely the opposite of the general reaction but:

i love the changes to condi clear. mainly because my "old" HoT scrapper-group-build works again in wvw.heal gyro + reconstruction field + inventions = 7 condis cleansed (AOE!!). on a short cd. VS 4 cleanses on the healing turreti dont "need" the healing turret anymore to provide cleanses and sustain (sure i lose 2.7k burst heal on allies... whatever).i can run gyro stability and heal on superspeed (final salvo + rapid regeneration).iron blooded is a lot more potent competitor to HGH now. i can (for a change) couple iron blooded with adaptive armor if i want to, because elixirs are not so extremely important anymore. plus i dont have to waste some elixirs just for the cleanse.my cleanses are ready, when i want to use them (and not a side-effect of a lesser elixir b)

it doesnt give me back my ability to do top(ish) dps in zergs, diving in, getting everything off and using the multiple defensive abilities to get out again without suffering health loss. but its something i hopefully can enjoy again, because i dont die to 5sec of fear and 9 stacks of conditions.kitten - even the lesser elixier c is better, because in a situation vs scourge or basically any spec that dishes out a combination of dmg-condition and soft-cc... i cleanse both! higher cd sure. idc, really

for what i am playing the changes offer a lot more "options" and less "use that one trait, everything else is trash"^2 . and it losens up the super tight group-wvw-meta compositions a tiny (!) bit(i am still questioning some new trash-traits (regen on condi cleanse? wtf?) and a way to compensate for the lost elixir cleanses on core and holo. no worries).

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With a little bit of reshuffling and speaking from a scrapper build:

It looks like we are the antiscourge support.

Keep in mind it requires heavy investment in both alchemy and inventions, and it does give up stuff like bunker down (which is more for a solo playstyle).

But with purity of purpose (ascended meme) and anticorrosive medic gyro turns into a brute of a anticondition skill. Pop that when engaging a condibomb and you will rack up boons faster than the scourges can corrupt them if you utilize the rest of the scrappers tools. See a chilling field? Anyone feels like 15 sec of alacrity? Someone spamming imob all over the place? Thanks for the free resistance i guess. Covering with vuln? Yeah let me remove that, converting it into protection, which removes another condition which then is turned into a new boon. Oh and ages of vigor.

The only complaints i could have (if i am to be super spoiled) is that im not sure i take alchemy for the elixirs. And comeback cure (given what it is competing with) could be some minor barrier instead of a very common boon.

And adaptive armor is a nerf against condition builds as the high condi bursts will burn through your in one tick, making the damage reduction more noticeable now that its uptime is lower would be great.

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IMO they decided to make alchemy not-mandatory, so there's more room for build diversity. They made it so the survivability strategies for engie get more diverse and stacking "survival" traitlines doesn't work as strongly as before. I don't think it is really good... but isn't bad either. Its different.Since I already don't really use alchemy or inventions anymore, I supose this doesn't affect me that much. We'll see.

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No. It is that bad. Losing the ability to cleanse conditions on yourself as well as allies is going to hurt in world versus world as they haven't done anything about how quickly said conditions are reapplied.

Among the worst, as you're going to see, are not the damaging condis (though it's bad) but impairments -cripples, roots, and especially long duration chills. There's only so much space on a hotbar, even with healing turret/gyro, one kit, purge gyro, elixir C and supply drop. Most of those are on cooldowns ranging from twenty to forty seconds, (worse for supply). That's not enough clearing. Good luck to you when you find you're slow as molasses and getting danced around in combat. The only thing that's changed here apart from a general nerfing is that now the necessity has shifted from HGH to mecha-legs and that isn't going to solve the problem.

Couple this with the fact that even the bunekeriest build you could hope for, Alchemy, Firearms, Scrapper -juggernaut flamethrower to get healing from backpack, as well as heal on applied boons via stability and bleeding induced might stacks, with full barriers and wearing clerics, is still not going to heal you through condition and power damage spam in competitive modes. It's grand for fighting golems, or for mobs in pve which do nothing but stand there and deal straight, physical damage, but even with might stacks your damage will be terrible. You're bleeding and burning damage laughable. The healing nowhere near enough- and on top of that the whatever boons you end up relying on -pulsing or elixir-based- are going to be chain stripped- further impairing you.

I don't see what anybody's celebrating over. The folks saying the class has been even more gutted are right. We might not be tied to alchemy anymore but say what you will for that era, compared to that we're now rudderless. Free bags.

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I'm on the fence about these changes and what they mean for a holosmith's condi clear. Alchemy is no longer the staple for condi removal that it once was, but inventions has the potential to replace it (maybe). Holosmith seems to be in a better place to make use of the new condi clear upon granting protection trait than scrapper since holosmith has hard light arena (pulses protection) and access to a good main hand weapon to make use of shield and its protection on use trait. Scrapper has to use the medic gyro to get a pulsing protection field, which is less than ideal for scrapper's new barrier on heal trait.

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Those claiming things are not bad are just basically telling go play holosmith or scrapper, don't bother to play core in WvWvW/spvp. I am telling you the condition removal is significantly worse in WvWvW for core engineer. I get overwhelmed by conditions even in small scale vs other players, even aggroing all the guards at keep (used to be piece of cake) is now deadly. Compounding chemicals heals so little it is close to useless (about 50 with cele ascended), unless you ramp boons like no tomorrow. The new transmute trait is basically almost utterly useless in any fight which lasts 1 minute or more. Mortar #5 no longer removes any conditions, same for healing mist (tool belt for elixir gun). Elixir gun #5 removes just 1 condition.

Rifle is now worse because of no 20 % cooldown reduction ( giving tiny damage to rifle #2 didn't compensate that).

I really hate when game devs are forcing the players to play the elite specs.

The only thing which has become easier, is to kill enemy engineers. Hybrid damage totally gets them.

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