Deadeye, Damage and Boonwalls — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Deadeye, Damage and Boonwalls

Zacchary.6183Zacchary.6183 Member ✭✭✭
edited September 21, 2017 in Thief

So it seems like everyone is moaning that the Deadeye doesn't have very good damage (which is kinda false) and are treating deadeye like a pve only spec (which it isn't). Uh... chances are they probably didn't try it enough during PoF beta or even looked at the traits and skills extensively. Maybe spent 5 minutes with a DPS meter, but nothing beyond that. So I made a hypothetical support build for this thread to show those of you who think this way that you couldn't be any more wrong. c:

So according to the build, simply landing Deadeye's Mark gives you and your allies:
(Thrill of the Crime)

  • Fury 17.25s
  • Might 17.25s
  • Swiftness 17.25s

You then get a Stolen Skill that has a buff on it and use it. Let's say you get Steal Warmth. And since we have Improvisation we get to use it again! That's:
(Bountiful Theft)

  • Vigor 17.25s
  • 3 Boons stripped and shared.

(Steal Warmth x2)

  • Vigor 34.5s (69s with max malice)

(Fire for Effect)

  • 20 Might 25.75s (up to 10 people near you and target)

So right now, by casting Deadeye's Mark on an Elementalist and then immediately using the two stolen skills, our allies have:

  • Fury 17.25s
  • 21 Might 17.25s (20 Might 25.75s)
  • Swiftness 17.25s
  • Vigor 51.75s (86.25s with maxed malice)
  • +3 boons.

All in a few seconds. At this point, guard is just there for protection, aegis and regen. c:

Oh wait, the ele just died. Renewing Gaze happens. Let's do that again! \o/


Now let's talk about damage. Let's say you wanna maximize your damage or something instead of put Guardian to shame. (fart noise)

Let's see what the Deadeye could pull off in the best conditions, using what we have:

  • Total power: 2827
  • Plus 25 Might: 3577
  • Plus 25 Bloodlust: 3827
  • Plus Revealed Training: 4027
  • Plus BQoBK: 4227
  • Plus Signet of Power Active: 4587
  • Max Malice: +15%
  • Death's Judgement Malice bonus: +75%

Maffs

Raw Damage = (Weapon strength * Power * Skill coefficient)
Raw Damage vs. Armor = (Weapon strength * Power * Skill coefficient) / Armor
Buffed Damage vs. Armor = (Skill damage * Positive multipliers) / (Armor * Negative multipliers)

Weapon Strength: 1265
Power: 4587
Skill Coefficient: 1.65
Positive Multipliers: 1.15 x 1.75 x 1.1 (from scholar runes)
Crit Multiplier: 234.93% --> 2.35 (rounded up)
Total Multiplier: 5.2023125 --> 5.2 (rounded down)

Raw Skill Damage:
1265 x 4587 x 1.65 = 9574215.75 --> 9574216 (rounded up)

Buffed Skill Damage:
9574216 x 5.2 = 49785923.2

Buffed Skill Damage vs. Light Target Golem (2185):
49785923.2 / 2185 = 22785 (rounded down)

Buffed Skill Damage vs. Heavy Target Golem (2597):
49785923.2 / 2597 = 19171 (rounded up)

Buffed Skill Damage vs. Block of Hard (5466 after stunbreak):
Ugh...
49785923.2 / 5466 = 9108 (rounded down)

Perfectest world... Block of Hard vs 9001 Deadeye, Block of Hard has full vuln/protection and recently broken out of a stun and is reviving someone, defense banner present and is under half health. 9001 Deadeye max power level
49785923.2 x 1.20 = 59743107.84
59743107.84 / 5653 = 10568 (rounded down)
(10568 x 1.25) / (1.25 x 1.33)
13210 / 1.6625 = 7946 (rounded up)


Now while this assumes the Death's Judgement has landed as a crit, a thief can easily gain 40% Crit Chance by simply kneeling and hitting 2. Which means his crit rate starts getting wasted at 60% crit chance. Now I cannot guarantee that all of this is accurate, but if I was shooting at something with this discussion it would be dead or dying.

Point being of this whole discussion, the damage can get pretty stupid with the Deadeye. The Deadeye is also capable of keeping your squad buffed midfight much better than most professions. In fact, it is possible to balance your build for both. This means that Deadeye is not only fantastic in WvW, but it could be generally used in any gamemode for support and long ranged pressure. And because of this, I can say with much confidence that Deadeye could punt d/p daredevil out of its +1 throne like a chihuahua.

That is just one instance I made above. But players, more often than not, get close to these combat conditions. So dismissing the Deadeye's damage capability because a realtime auto-calculator said so is ignorant. From my Deadeye Tips&Tricks write up, I stated a few things I know people won't agree with. However, like with this post I crunched numbers before I came to those conclusions and posted them. Because otherwise it would be misleading and horrible for thieves who want a little more from an elite spec everyone else is downplaying. Not only that, but for bad reasons too, like no mobility or gimmicky/boring/RP gameplay. All three of them being complete BS btw.

The issue is not the spec, but the player. The Deadeye has so many capabilities core AND Daredevil thief does not. But all I have seen are players complaining and comparing Deadeye to Daredevil like they have any common ground. The reality is that Deadeye is a sniper. A sniper stays still, kills from afar and then gets the kitten out of dodge. The Daredevil is a warrior monk. They beat your face in up close, with fist and stick. Comparing the two is more like comparing an M1A1 and a Boeing AH-64 Apache more than apples to oranges.

But this is kind of expected. So I don't expect these numbers to convince you of anything. But I warn you, all it takes is a few thieves picking this spec up and performing well with it. This spec is way more than everyone gives it credit for and it will come and bite you when you least expect it. Almost literally.

EDIT: general cleanup

A good player can succeed with whatever is meta. A great player can succeed with whatever they want.
[Vial of Salt]
PSA: Deadeye isn't bad, you're just bad at using it.
These DE tips are still relevant.

Comments

  • Mmmm-Mm! I do love me some number-crunching. Always entertaining. Whether or not Deadeye will sink or swim, we'll find out in a couple of weeks. I am not going to call anything before I've gotten a couple of weeks with it, at least.

  • Kanto.1659Kanto.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    This is the reason I want to try DE. I don't like the elementalist or engineer complicated rotations to feed boons to my party and I don't like playing melee. Someone even posted a build where they also feed 24 seconds of Quickness when kneeling (though I don't see where they come from since only Be quick or be killed is a source and only 6 seconds of that).

    If you'd like to have a night version of the forums check the firefox addon called Stylish, and then Phyrene's work.

  • TwiceDead.1963TwiceDead.1963 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2017

    @Kanto.1659 said:
    This is the reason I want to try DE. I don't like the elementalist or engineer complicated rotations to feed boons to my party and I don't like playing melee. Someone even posted a build where they also feed 24 seconds of Quickness when kneeling (though I don't see where they come from since only Be quick or be killed is a source and only 6 seconds of that).

    Depends on their boon duration but... For sources you've got Haste, Lesser Haste if you hit their flank and you've got Burst of Agility traited, and Sigil of Rage, along with the aforementioned BQBK.

    Even with no Concentration aside from Acrobatics, you can get pretty good Quickness durations.

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYUEFPxCWh1FAiO5I+94g8Q6FBuAdAA-j1wIABA8EA2WHgWaBAA-w

    EDIT:
    Woops, forgot to check the build you were referring to. But yeah, he's using Burst of Agility, Haste and BQBK.

    Sleep deprivation is a mean mistress...

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm surprised the thief community hasn't lynched you yet for pointing out what the rest of us saw during the beta. All the other threads seem to be about how deadeye deals 0 damage, has no mobility and no one will play it.

    Carnished Toast (Yum)
    Lost in the Maguuma (TC)

  • Honestly, everyone's been so negative, and the Kneel mechanic not being as smooth as maybe it should be I can fully get behind.
    I'm an inexperienced Thief player, really just got my character ready and all, however just thinking about the traits in my head a bit, there seems to be so much synergy that can all be applied at the same time, that I really feel like we might actually end up being very okay, damage-wise. It's not even that hard to apply, running Crit Strikes/Acrobat + Trickery + Deadeye you'll be getting loads of Crit/dmg boosts all over simply by using Stealth and Steal/Mark some (Acrobat probably for some more survivability, Crit strikes for nukes).

  • Those #'s are nice, but only on paper. When the slightest daze interrupts your kneel and you're initiative starved from kneeling again or trying to build might with the now nerfed skill, theoretical dps isn't going to mean much. And you're especially going to feel it if either a thief brings pulmonary for the interrupt, or if a mes brings power lock, preventing you from kneeling again.

    Now let's assume your positioning is perfect and the enemies have 0 awareness. You still need time for malice to build up while other classes can just start cleaving or applying burns with crazy numbers from the get go. Furthermore your malice stacks just straight up reset after a kill or 20s, while DD damage modifiers stays consistently strong out the gate. It's also bizzarre that malice itself has a cast time when it's so central to the tree if it's to compete with any other trait line. A mark that doesn't connect (be it line of sight, blind, walls, w/e) basically invalidates the tree's worth.

    And then even with all that aside, a SINGLE reflect will pretty much just ruin your day.

    So yeah. I don't think you'll be seeing rifle in higher levels of pvp, unless bunkering becomes stupid crazy (lol hot release) to warrant needing such spike damage.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2017

    All I remember during the Preview weekend is that. I applied Mark, kneeled, spam TRB, Mercy, apply Mark again, spam TRB again = dead target (both marks trig9ered BQBK). It took 5 TRBs since 1 TRB was fully dodged. Didn't even need to get back up from kneeling. Also, swapping weapon is the fastest way to get out of kneeling. Yes, I went with Rifle - P/P during that time.

    The problem with my target is that they think they can rush me while I'm kneeling instead of trying to break LoS and I'd bet they are the ones who are QQing.

    And seeing all these numbers gives me a mixed feeling -- sad that it will definitely get nerfed, glad that Karl took off the gloves this time around.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • @kuyaDEAN.2785 said:
    Those #'s are nice, but only on paper. When the slightest daze interrupts your kneel and you're initiative starved from kneeling again or trying to build might with the now nerfed skill, theoretical dps isn't going to mean much. And you're especially going to feel it if either a thief brings pulmonary for the interrupt, or if a mes brings power lock, preventing you from kneeling again.

    Now let's assume your positioning is perfect and the enemies have 0 awareness. You still need time for malice to build up while other classes can just start cleaving or applying burns with crazy numbers from the get go. Furthermore your malice stacks just straight up reset after a kill or 20s, while DD damage modifiers stays consistently strong out the gate. It's also bizzarre that malice itself has a cast time when it's so central to the tree if it's to compete with any other trait line. A mark that doesn't connect (be it line of sight, blind, walls, w/e) basically invalidates the tree's worth.

    And then even with all that aside, a SINGLE reflect will pretty much just ruin your day.

    So yeah. I don't think you'll be seeing rifle in higher levels of pvp, unless bunkering becomes stupid crazy (lol hot release) to warrant needing such spike damage.

    Except if you get dazed out of a kneel it's probably a good idea to switch to melee weapons right? The Malice still stacks, damage is still there. You don't HAVE to shoot people, it's probably generally a good idea to swap to your melee set if you get focused a bit (or disengage with mobility)

  • @kuyaDEAN.2785 said:
    Those #'s are nice, but only on paper. When the slightest daze interrupts your kneel and you're initiative starved from kneeling again or trying to build might with the now nerfed skill, theoretical dps isn't going to mean much. And you're especially going to feel it if either a thief brings pulmonary for the interrupt, or if a mes brings power lock, preventing you from kneeling again.

    Now let's assume your positioning is perfect and the enemies have 0 awareness. You still need time for malice to build up while other classes can just start cleaving or applying burns with crazy numbers from the get go. Furthermore your malice stacks just straight up reset after a kill or 20s, while DD damage modifiers stays consistently strong out the gate. It's also bizzarre that malice itself has a cast time when it's so central to the tree if it's to compete with any other trait line. A mark that doesn't connect (be it line of sight, blind, walls, w/e) basically invalidates the tree's worth.

    And then even with all that aside, a SINGLE reflect will pretty much just ruin your day.

    So yeah. I don't think you'll be seeing rifle in higher levels of pvp, unless bunkering becomes stupid crazy (lol hot release) to warrant needing such spike damage.

    This is one of the reasons why I don't like Gw2 PvP arguments. You're playing your cards like Rifle is the only weapon you'll be bringing to the table. You have ways of avoiding being dazed. And being dazed is not the end of the world. Swap your weapons, or force a reposition. You ALWAYS have options.

  • @tnhalbertsma.7682 said:

    @kuyaDEAN.2785 said:
    Those #'s are nice, but only on paper. When the slightest daze interrupts your kneel and you're initiative starved from kneeling again or trying to build might with the now nerfed skill, theoretical dps isn't going to mean much. And you're especially going to feel it if either a thief brings pulmonary for the interrupt, or if a mes brings power lock, preventing you from kneeling again.

    Now let's assume your positioning is perfect and the enemies have 0 awareness. You still need time for malice to build up while other classes can just start cleaving or applying burns with crazy numbers from the get go. Furthermore your malice stacks just straight up reset after a kill or 20s, while DD damage modifiers stays consistently strong out the gate. It's also bizzarre that malice itself has a cast time when it's so central to the tree if it's to compete with any other trait line. A mark that doesn't connect (be it line of sight, blind, walls, w/e) basically invalidates the tree's worth.

    And then even with all that aside, a SINGLE reflect will pretty much just ruin your day.

    So yeah. I don't think you'll be seeing rifle in higher levels of pvp, unless bunkering becomes stupid crazy (lol hot release) to warrant needing such spike damage.

    Except if you get dazed out of a kneel it's probably a good idea to switch to melee weapons right? The Malice still stacks, damage is still there. You don't HAVE to shoot people, it's probably generally a good idea to swap to your melee set if you get focused a bit (or disengage with mobility)

    True you don't have to shoot, but having a fighting chance against the enemy in melee range as deadeye HINGES on the one engaging you being the marked target in mind and the malice having ticked for sometime already so you can even get comparable #'s to daredevil's consistent damage modifiers against all targets within melee range. And if you choose to disengage with shortbow 5, you're going to have to burn precious initiative that the deadeye's rifle skills eat so much of. So either you're going to be already too starved to escape or too starved on your next engagement. Your only out at that point is just slowly crawling away with the stealth elite or your stunbreak utilities, which you may have popped already if you're being jumped.

  • @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

    @kuyaDEAN.2785 said:
    Those #'s are nice, but only on paper. When the slightest daze interrupts your kneel and you're initiative starved from kneeling again or trying to build might with the now nerfed skill, theoretical dps isn't going to mean much. And you're especially going to feel it if either a thief brings pulmonary for the interrupt, or if a mes brings power lock, preventing you from kneeling again.

    Now let's assume your positioning is perfect and the enemies have 0 awareness. You still need time for malice to build up while other classes can just start cleaving or applying burns with crazy numbers from the get go. Furthermore your malice stacks just straight up reset after a kill or 20s, while DD damage modifiers stays consistently strong out the gate. It's also bizzarre that malice itself has a cast time when it's so central to the tree if it's to compete with any other trait line. A mark that doesn't connect (be it line of sight, blind, walls, w/e) basically invalidates the tree's worth.

    And then even with all that aside, a SINGLE reflect will pretty much just ruin your day.

    So yeah. I don't think you'll be seeing rifle in higher levels of pvp, unless bunkering becomes stupid crazy (lol hot release) to warrant needing such spike damage.

    This is one of the reasons why I don't like Gw2 PvP arguments. You're playing your cards like Rifle is the only weapon you'll be bringing to the table. You have ways of avoiding being dazed. And being dazed is not the end of the world. Swap your weapons, or force a reposition. You ALWAYS have options.

    Without rifle though, deadeye's saving grace is basically just malice then. And if you're playing without rifle, why bring malice when it has a ramp up period of 20s, resets, AND is single target? DD meanwhile gets a consistent damage modifier to any target in melee range, extra dodges, and various other traits that are just overall strong.

  • @kuyaDEAN.2785 said:

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

    @kuyaDEAN.2785 said:
    Those #'s are nice, but only on paper. When the slightest daze interrupts your kneel and you're initiative starved from kneeling again or trying to build might with the now nerfed skill, theoretical dps isn't going to mean much. And you're especially going to feel it if either a thief brings pulmonary for the interrupt, or if a mes brings power lock, preventing you from kneeling again.

    Now let's assume your positioning is perfect and the enemies have 0 awareness. You still need time for malice to build up while other classes can just start cleaving or applying burns with crazy numbers from the get go. Furthermore your malice stacks just straight up reset after a kill or 20s, while DD damage modifiers stays consistently strong out the gate. It's also bizzarre that malice itself has a cast time when it's so central to the tree if it's to compete with any other trait line. A mark that doesn't connect (be it line of sight, blind, walls, w/e) basically invalidates the tree's worth.

    And then even with all that aside, a SINGLE reflect will pretty much just ruin your day.

    So yeah. I don't think you'll be seeing rifle in higher levels of pvp, unless bunkering becomes stupid crazy (lol hot release) to warrant needing such spike damage.

    This is one of the reasons why I don't like Gw2 PvP arguments. You're playing your cards like Rifle is the only weapon you'll be bringing to the table. You have ways of avoiding being dazed. And being dazed is not the end of the world. Swap your weapons, or force a reposition. You ALWAYS have options.

    Without rifle though, deadeye's saving grace is basically just malice then. And if you're playing without rifle, why bring malice when it has a ramp up period of 20s, resets, AND is single target? DD meanwhile gets a consistent damage modifier to any target in melee range, extra dodges, and various other traits that are just overall strong.

    Not exactly. DE has Shadow Meld, Shadow Flare, Binding Shadow, Revealed Malice, Unforgiving, and BQBK. All these work well with my PvE P/P build.

    The bottom traits have a lot of Party support that Thief never had before. Personally, Rifle is a good ranged weapon, but it is not the only reason to pick DE.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Not exactly. DE has Shadow Meld, Shadow Flare, Binding Shadow, Revealed Malice, Unforgiving, and BQBK. All these work well with my PvE P/P build.

    The bottom traits have a lot of Party support that Thief never had before. Personally, Rifle is a good ranged weapon, but it is not the only reason to pick DE.

    Sounds like you haven't forgotten the face of your father! Let those bullets rip.

  • @flyingfox.6150 said:

    Not exactly. DE has Shadow Meld, Shadow Flare, Binding Shadow, Revealed Malice, Unforgiving, and BQBK. All these work well with my PvE P/P build.

    The bottom traits have a lot of Party support that Thief never had before. Personally, Rifle is a good ranged weapon, but it is not the only reason to pick DE.

    Sounds like you haven't forgotten the face of your father! Let those bullets rip.

    Is that a meme from somewhere. Sorry I'm completely lost.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • @Ubi.4136 said:
    I'm surprised the thief community hasn't lynched you yet for pointing out what the rest of us saw during the beta. All the other threads seem to be about how deadeye deals 0 damage, has no mobility and no one will play it.

    That's because Math > Propaganda. ;D

    A good player can succeed with whatever is meta. A great player can succeed with whatever they want.
    [Vial of Salt]
    PSA: Deadeye isn't bad, you're just bad at using it.
    These DE tips are still relevant.

  • Amante.8109Amante.8109 Member ✭✭
    edited September 21, 2017

    The critical consensus seemed to be more that Deadeye's PvP damage is fine (good burst), it's their PvE damage that's not so great. Rifle in particularly has really crappy sustained damage (that autoattack, ugh), and even if you use another weapon, it's hard to break the dominance of Daredevil.

  • I'm just glad there's a source that explains what all of the Deadeye steal skills are. In my theorycrafting the biggest variable was that I had no idea what marks did, so I had to constantly discount a third of the traits because they interact with the steal skills.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2017

    @kuyaDEAN.2785 said:

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

    @kuyaDEAN.2785 said:
    Those #'s are nice, but only on paper. When the slightest daze interrupts your kneel and you're initiative starved from kneeling again or trying to build might with the now nerfed skill, theoretical dps isn't going to mean much. And you're especially going to feel it if either a thief brings pulmonary for the interrupt, or if a mes brings power lock, preventing you from kneeling again.

    Now let's assume your positioning is perfect and the enemies have 0 awareness. You still need time for malice to build up while other classes can just start cleaving or applying burns with crazy numbers from the get go. Furthermore your malice stacks just straight up reset after a kill or 20s, while DD damage modifiers stays consistently strong out the gate. It's also bizzarre that malice itself has a cast time when it's so central to the tree if it's to compete with any other trait line. A mark that doesn't connect (be it line of sight, blind, walls, w/e) basically invalidates the tree's worth.

    And then even with all that aside, a SINGLE reflect will pretty much just ruin your day.

    So yeah. I don't think you'll be seeing rifle in higher levels of pvp, unless bunkering becomes stupid crazy (lol hot release) to warrant needing such spike damage.

    This is one of the reasons why I don't like Gw2 PvP arguments. You're playing your cards like Rifle is the only weapon you'll be bringing to the table. You have ways of avoiding being dazed. And being dazed is not the end of the world. Swap your weapons, or force a reposition. You ALWAYS have options.

    Without rifle though, deadeye's saving grace is basically just malice then. And if you're playing without rifle, why bring malice when it has a ramp up period of 20s, resets, AND is single target? DD meanwhile gets a consistent damage modifier to any target in melee range, extra dodges, and various other traits that are just overall strong.

    It's 10 seconds if you have made a single attack during each stack's interval period. If you take M7, then the 10-20 second interval is spread out across

    And again, this is going back to "bringing only one weapon to the table". You have two weapons. And you have options with all of your weapons.

    The point is, the fight is not over if you're dazed. The likely hood of another class being able to burst you down during that short period is slim. Don't want to swap off of rifle? Fine, You got Shadow Step, If you've pre-empted a dive you've got Shadow Flare ready to slam the person when you swap places. You've got Shadow gust and Death's Retreat to put distance between you again. You've got blinding powder and Shadow Arts to bail your kitten out immediately and reposition. You can use Death's Retreat, Mercy, and Mark again to reapply a stun - yes you lose your malice but it's actually tactically advantages at times. Dump a smokescreen and shadow retreat, You're cloaked, strike them with cursed bullet and blind at the same time, catch them with a 2, spin shadow retreat and recloak. Lets not forget Roll for Initiative... the utility very people seem to take and is at a 35s cool down, and lower if you took trickery (which most people probably do).

  • Dis crazy maffs be dizzying. I have a more simple question that maybe someone can help me with: when does Death's Judgement do more damage than Three Round Burst? I.e. how many malice dots do you need for judgement to do more damage than a triple tap?

    Let's keep it simple and say Three Round Burst does 3x 1000 = 3000 (ignoring all the weird modifiers)
    So each dot of malice adds 15% per dot to my example base damage of 1000. Actual text: fire a shot that deals increased damage based on your number of malice stacks - damage bonus per stack :15%
    I don't understand what it means by 15% per stack. So for my poor addled brain - how many dots do I need before I press 4 instead of 3? :p

  • Sypher.8975Sypher.8975 Member ✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    Theory is theory and doesn't apply at all in a real life/gameplay environment. Deadeye suffers from something big and that's being an immobile buffer that, when exposed by enemies, is dead in seconds (or well, in under a secdond tbh). Stealth won't help you at all, and just running away takes away your role as a "squad buffer". You try to explain to the people not to compare daredevil to deadeye - which is fine. Yet daredevil is probably deadeye's biggest counter. So there's absolutely no need to play deadeye over daredevil. If you wanna argue with "oh but deadeye buffs your squad" - so what? Heralds, Druids, Tempests or Eles in general, Engis and so on also buff your squad. Not to mention that at the moment, as far as pvp goes, buffs are a killer. Scourges and Spellbreakers are just gonna laugh at your 25 might stacks you try to apply.

    EDIT: I just saw that this post is over 2 weeks old. I guess your point on the deadeye matter changed by now.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    Stolen skills are also being maligned with peopel not having a clear idea of their potential. As example how does 20 seconds protection sound when fighting an Engineer along wih applying 20 of vuln with a skill that can not be reflected?

    Get your DE Might stacks on along with that malice and you can lay a whole lot of hurt on Mr Engineer from 1500 range.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    @Sypher.8975 said:
    Theory is theory and doesn't apply at all in a real life/gameplay environment. Deadeye suffers from something big and that's being an immobile buffer that, when exposed by enemies, is dead in seconds (or well, in under a secdond tbh). Stealth won't help you at all, and just running away takes away your role as a "squad buffer". You try to explain to the people not to compare daredevil to deadeye - which is fine. Yet daredevil is probably deadeye's biggest counter. So there's absolutely no need to play deadeye over daredevil. If you wanna argue with "oh but deadeye buffs your squad" - so what? Heralds, Druids, Tempests or Eles in general, Engis and so on also buff your squad. Not to mention that at the moment, as far as pvp goes, buffs are a killer. Scourges and Spellbreakers are just gonna laugh at your 25 might stacks you try to apply.

    EDIT: I just saw that this post is over 2 weeks old. I guess your point on the deadeye matter changed by now.

    To being stealthed will not save you.I think you should try it. Trait Iron sights. Get your protection running via steal or perfectionist. Take Shadows rejuv OR CIS (I prefer CIS)

    you have a source of 33 percent reduction one of 15 percent one of 25 percent nd one that prevents any attack from doing a crit. You can eat a whole lot of damage. I have had Daredevils swing away where they saw me stealthed, Knelt and pulled off a DJ on them as i ate the damage. The Daredevil damage plummets when it can not crit and when it faces all that damage reduction and daredevil has no reveal.

  • Sypher.8975Sypher.8975 Member ✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    Stolen skills are also being maligned with peopel not having a clear idea of their potential. As example how does 20 seconds protection sound when fighting an Engineer along wih throwing two stacks of vuln with a skill that can not be reflected?

    Get your DE Might stacks on along with that malice and you can lay a whole lot of hurt on Mr Engineer from 1500 range.

    All fine on paper. The moment the engineer blocks and reflects all your shots is the moment you realize how bad the spec actually is (slow projectile speed making it easy to reflect/block/avoid). On top of that (since rocket boots became kinda meta), the engi (or holosmith w/e) is just gonna gapclose on your face and unleash a kitten burst on you. That's only an example with engineer. All other 8 classes can gapclose, block, avoid or reflect even better.

  • Sypher.8975Sypher.8975 Member ✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sypher.8975 said:
    Theory is theory and doesn't apply at all in a real life/gameplay environment. Deadeye suffers from something big and that's being an immobile buffer that, when exposed by enemies, is dead in seconds (or well, in under a secdond tbh). Stealth won't help you at all, and just running away takes away your role as a "squad buffer". You try to explain to the people not to compare daredevil to deadeye - which is fine. Yet daredevil is probably deadeye's biggest counter. So there's absolutely no need to play deadeye over daredevil. If you wanna argue with "oh but deadeye buffs your squad" - so what? Heralds, Druids, Tempests or Eles in general, Engis and so on also buff your squad. Not to mention that at the moment, as far as pvp goes, buffs are a killer. Scourges and Spellbreakers are just gonna laugh at your 25 might stacks you try to apply.

    EDIT: I just saw that this post is over 2 weeks old. I guess your point on the deadeye matter changed by now.

    To being stealthed will not save you.I think you should try it. Trait Iron sights. Get your protection running via steal or perfectionist. Take Shadows rejuv OR CIS (I prefer CIS)

    you have a source of 33 percent reduction one of 15 percent one of 25 percent nd one that prevents any attack from doing a crit. You can eat a whole lot of damage. I have had Daredevils swing away where they saw me stealthed, Knelt and pulled off a DJ on them as i ate the damage. The Daredevil damage plummets when it can not crit and when it faces all that damage reduction and daredevil has no reveal.

    As I said above, all nice on paper. That's why stuff like this exist. You won't be able to keep up your protection against any daredevil - except if you dodge his steal. Even if you do that, daredevil (or rather d/p weaponset) has access to basically perma blind. Even if you can avoid all the blinds and whatever, daredevil has access to stealth (again d/p weaponset). Even then, daredevil can potentially dodge 6 times in a row (even more with the right food+sigils) and make you waste initiative. And if all that isn't enough: since all your abilities have a casttime - well, have fun being interrupted throughout the whole fight and eating 3-4k impacting disruptor procs.

    I ate a lot of burst by deadeye's in the last couple days (mostly WvW), just to see how much they can burst. I usually ended up to like 2-3k hp, healed up to around 8k, stole on them and oneshotted them in a matter of 2 seconds. Let me tell you that deadeye just doesn't work in a pvp environment at all.

    So now tell me, where does deadeye shine? By having 1500 range? Laughable.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sypher.8975 said:
    As I said above, all nice on paper.

    Iron Sites and Resilience of Shadows is a nice combo. Normally I can CnD my way through most aoe bursts and I haven't felt the need to have more than DE's Mark and Shadow Meld to get through being pulled or locked down, usually with the second Shadow Meld to mask direction once I have distance. Good thieves are counters, not Daredevils specifically, I don't get that angle. Core Steal at the moment makes core and DD counter to anyone ahead of DE and having better trait combos like DA,Trick,? is good padding in general.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Resilience of shadows was never that great. Shadow Arts was always a subpar traitline. What's 25% dmg reduction (not even sure if it works against condi dmg) when other classes have access to full immunity? Add another 10% to Iron Sites and we might have a decent build. 15% is just bullcrap. I disagree with daredevils not being a specific counter. Deadeye casts almost every skill, while daredevil has access to a floads of interrupts combined with impacting disruptor. That alone makes deadeye the worst possible choice against a daredevil.

  • Zacchary.6183Zacchary.6183 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    @Sypher.8975 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sypher.8975 said:
    Theory is theory and doesn't apply at all in a real life/gameplay environment. Deadeye suffers from something big and that's being an immobile buffer that, when exposed by enemies, is dead in seconds (or well, in under a secdond tbh). Stealth won't help you at all, and just running away takes away your role as a "squad buffer". You try to explain to the people not to compare daredevil to deadeye - which is fine. Yet daredevil is probably deadeye's biggest counter. So there's absolutely no need to play deadeye over daredevil. If you wanna argue with "oh but deadeye buffs your squad" - so what? Heralds, Druids, Tempests or Eles in general, Engis and so on also buff your squad. Not to mention that at the moment, as far as pvp goes, buffs are a killer. Scourges and Spellbreakers are just gonna laugh at your 25 might stacks you try to apply.

    EDIT: I just saw that this post is over 2 weeks old. I guess your point on the deadeye matter changed by now.

    To being stealthed will not save you.I think you should try it. Trait Iron sights. Get your protection running via steal or perfectionist. Take Shadows rejuv OR CIS (I prefer CIS)

    you have a source of 33 percent reduction one of 15 percent one of 25 percent nd one that prevents any attack from doing a crit. You can eat a whole lot of damage. I have had Daredevils swing away where they saw me stealthed, Knelt and pulled off a DJ on them as i ate the damage. The Daredevil damage plummets when it can not crit and when it faces all that damage reduction and daredevil has no reveal.

    As I said above, all nice on paper. That's why stuff like this exist. You won't be able to keep up your protection against any daredevil - except if you dodge his steal. Even if you do that, daredevil (or rather d/p weaponset) has access to basically perma blind. Even if you can avoid all the blinds and whatever, daredevil has access to stealth (again d/p weaponset). Even then, daredevil can potentially dodge 6 times in a row (even more with the right food+sigils) and make you waste initiative. And if all that isn't enough: since all your abilities have a casttime - well, have fun being interrupted throughout the whole fight and eating 3-4k impacting disruptor procs.

    I ate a lot of burst by deadeye's in the last couple days (mostly WvW), just to see how much they can burst. I usually ended up to like 2-3k hp, healed up to around 8k, stole on them and oneshotted them in a matter of 2 seconds. Let me tell you that deadeye just doesn't work in a pvp environment at all.

    So now tell me, where does deadeye shine? By having 1500 range? Laughable.

    You can say that about pretty much anything when you put them in a situation where they get hardcountered by someone who knows what they are doing. However, a daredevil can't permablind, permaevade, stealth with BP+HS and constantly interrupt the DE all in the same fight, even if the daredevil blew their utilities. The situation you posted is unrealistic.

    Where the Deadeye shines over the Daredevil is in self buffing, steal usage and stealth spam, aside from range using rifle. You also mentioned Bountiful Theft, which is a core trait. Mark can be reset in two ways (three if you are running sword), either through the death of the marked target or by Mercy. This means that the deadeye will always have +1 Mark uses in combat and therefore +1 steal trait uses. So the Daredevil may steal the boons off the DE but it isn't like the DE could get them back eventually.

    And as a counter to your experience, I have gone to wvw and have put plenty of tanky guards on their kitten. I have kited d/p daredevils into blowing their initiative and cooldowns before bursting them down at times when they notice me and straight blew them up when they haven't. And I am more use to a zerg with Fire For Effect and my burst damage than as a d/p thief. Last time I was in a zerg, I had people hugging me for might stacks. You can't do that with a Daredevil.

    A good player can succeed with whatever is meta. A great player can succeed with whatever they want.
    [Vial of Salt]
    PSA: Deadeye isn't bad, you're just bad at using it.
    These DE tips are still relevant.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    I would only add more to iron sites in spvp, that would get stupid in wvw or raids. DD counters DE directly if DE is using Rifles, but rifle is struggling to find any players to champion it so far and that's pretty telling of it's design. I just thought I'd add that those two traits go together well if you're bunkering a bit, but I can't bunker for long without wanting to change back to core Steal, aside from it being instant, it's combos so well with certain weapon skills that it just feels natural.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Tinnel.4369Tinnel.4369 Member ✭✭✭

    If you're capable of doing the theory then you surely understand that it's only valuable if the practice or experiment validates it. We don't fight on paper in a vacuum, unfortunately. Insisting that because the theory is sound the practice will follow suit just makes it, well, propaganda. What is useful here is the conversation that's emerging which is amounting to the experimental practice by some.

    What I'm finding the most challenging is being able to be in position and range to get something even remotely resembling a good shot down range, let alone enough shots to get a kill. It may very well be a learn to play issue, but we only get better experimental evidence through evaluation.

    My frustration with landing damage can be summed up in three areas, if someone has feedback on overcoming them it'd be rad.

    1. By the time I'm set they're out of range. As a result I'm burning initiative, mobility, and stealth skills to get in range again.
    2. By the time I'm set they're on me. This is particularly challenging if they've already been out of range and now I'm starved for mobility, stealth, and initiative. Oh, and I'm trapped cause I'm kneeling and it's a klunky mechanic.
    3. I'm set, I've got malice, I've got initiative, slow deep breath, natural respiratory pause, clear front sight tip, slow steady trigger squeeze and........evade/blocked/barrier. Now I'm back to 1. or 2. because I've given myself away and have to re-position or get defensive.

    These issues seem even more pronounced when trying to pick on a zerg. They're either mobile, tons of projectile hate, or they're gonna turn around and run you over. I feel like if any movement broke kneel and gave a short swiftness boon we'd have a little better jump on re-positioning, chasing, or getting evasive without blowing other valuable resources.

    When I can land some good shots I'm not all that disappointed with the damage. CS, DA, DE can put the smack down. However, the evidence I'm seeing is that we're farm league compared to LB Soulbeast with superior (unblockable) damage, superior survivability, and superior mobility while maintaining the same range.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭

    First of all you say that "people look at DE as a pve-only spec", which is false, beacuse in fact it's a really bad pve spec.
    Then -for pvp I assume- you say this:

    The reality is that Deadeye is a sniper. A sniper stays still, kills from afar and then gets the kitten out of dodge.

    The thing about the "sniper playstyle" is that it doesn't really work unless you have allies that can guard you from the enemies. If you start the fight at ~max range and kneel, it's really easy to get out and you don't really have the mobility to catch up. If you start closer, most -if not all- of the classes can easly gap-close to you and simply kill you.
    Combine that with the fact that you actually don't have the ability to insta-burst, because to reach your full potential (numbers hurr durr), you have to charge malice (which, whatever you like to claim, is not instant) aaaand it's quite easy to see why DE fails as a "sniper" concept.

  • Zacchary.6183Zacchary.6183 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    First of all you say that "people look at DE as a pve-only spec", which is false, beacuse in fact it's a really bad pve spec.
    Then -for pvp I assume- you say this:

    The reality is that Deadeye is a sniper. A sniper stays still, kills from afar and then gets the kitten out of dodge.

    The thing about the "sniper playstyle" is that it doesn't really work unless you have allies that can guard you from the enemies. If you start the fight at ~max range and kneel, it's really easy to get out and you don't really have the mobility to catch up. If you start closer, most -if not all- of the classes can easly gap-close to you and simply kill you.
    Combine that with the fact that you actually don't have the ability to insta-burst, because to reach your full potential (numbers hurr durr), you have to charge malice (which, whatever you like to claim, is not instant) aaaand it's quite easy to see why DE fails as a "sniper" concept.

    Just fyi, this was made in September right before launch in response to players in-game who predicted that the Deadeye was not going to work in PvP, thus calling it a pve spec. They were dead wrong, as complaining about the spec started two days after launch in regards to pvp. Afterwards, it was mixed reviews varying from trash to "scary".

    And you are wrong about it failing as a sniper concept simply because snipers usually wait before they kill their target.
    http://science.howstuffworks.com/sniper1.htm

    When there is no specific objective, a sniper will look for targets of opportunity. By tracking enemy movements, snipers wait patiently for the unsuspecting soldiers to present the opportunity for a perfect shot. An officer taking a break to smoke a cigarette, a pilot flight-checking his helicopter, an armed guard on patrol -- these are all targets of opportunity.

    Deadeyes have to wait for malice to build before they can blow someone up with one Death's Judgement and they have to remain hidden or else they'll get pressured and possibly killed.

    A good player can succeed with whatever is meta. A great player can succeed with whatever they want.
    [Vial of Salt]
    PSA: Deadeye isn't bad, you're just bad at using it.
    These DE tips are still relevant.

  • Tinnel.4369Tinnel.4369 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    And you are wrong about it failing as a sniper concept simply because snipers usually wait before they kill their target.
    http://science.howstuffworks.com/sniper1.htm

    When there is no specific objective, a sniper will look for targets of opportunity. By tracking enemy movements, snipers wait patiently for the unsuspecting soldiers to present the opportunity for a perfect shot. An officer taking a break to smoke a cigarette, a pilot flight-checking his helicopter, an armed guard on patrol -- these are all targets of opportunity.

    "incredibly long distances" - Or in GW2 speak, the same distance as a Longbow.

    "The main battlefield role of the sniper is reconnaissance. Because snipers are masters of stealth, they are perfectly suited to sneak behind enemy lines to provide command with information about the enemy's size, strength and location." - Thief didn't need a "sniper" spec to do this.

    "With deadly shots that kill without warning, military snipers break both the enemy's will and ability to fight." - Except a single shot can't kill most classes and just like in real life the shot gives you away, but in real life they don't have longbows that can track and hit you with 100% accuracy at your incredibly long range even though they can't see you.

    "snipers wait patiently for the unsuspecting soldiers to present the opportunity for a perfect shot." - I can do this with a well placed ballista. Deadeye has very limited resources with which to do this successfully. To come even remotely close you'd need stellar positioning and cover which are hardly readily available, you're not gonna one shot them, they're gonna run away or pop an invuln/block. You can maximize stealth, but at the cost of damage, lowering the chances you're gonna pull off a kill before they're blocking or gone.

    I'm gonna go with kinda failed as a sniper concept.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    First of all you say that "people look at DE as a pve-only spec", which is false, beacuse in fact it's a really bad pve spec.
    Then -for pvp I assume- you say this:

    The reality is that Deadeye is a sniper. A sniper stays still, kills from afar and then gets the kitten out of dodge.

    The thing about the "sniper playstyle" is that it doesn't really work unless you have allies that can guard you from the enemies. If you start the fight at ~max range and kneel, it's really easy to get out and you don't really have the mobility to catch up. If you start closer, most -if not all- of the classes can easly gap-close to you and simply kill you.
    Combine that with the fact that you actually don't have the ability to insta-burst, because to reach your full potential (numbers hurr durr), you have to charge malice (which, whatever you like to claim, is not instant) aaaand it's quite easy to see why DE fails as a "sniper" concept.

    Just fyi, this was made in September

    Ah kitten, someone dug it out, didn't pay attention to the date it was posted.

    And you are wrong about it failing as a sniper concept simply because snipers usually wait before they kill their target.

    Yeah, they do... but the whole thing that makes it possible is being unnoticed, as in their target can't be aware of their presence. Sooo not really wrong.

    And jesus, linking to the sniper definition as an argument aside... Even by that standard you contradict yourself:
    You LITEREALLY just quoted this:

    snipers wait patiently for the unsuspecting soldiers

    And then commented with this:

    Deadeyes have to wait for malice to build before they can blow someone up with one Death's Judgement and they have to remain hidden or else they'll get pressured and possibly killed.

    Once you apply malice, you're no longer able to be unnoticed by your desired target.

  • @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    First of all you say that "people look at DE as a pve-only spec", which is false, beacuse in fact it's a really bad pve spec.
    Then -for pvp I assume- you say this:

    The reality is that Deadeye is a sniper. A sniper stays still, kills from afar and then gets the kitten out of dodge.

    The thing about the "sniper playstyle" is that it doesn't really work unless you have allies that can guard you from the enemies. If you start the fight at ~max range and kneel, it's really easy to get out and you don't really have the mobility to catch up. If you start closer, most -if not all- of the classes can easly gap-close to you and simply kill you.
    Combine that with the fact that you actually don't have the ability to insta-burst, because to reach your full potential (numbers hurr durr), you have to charge malice (which, whatever you like to claim, is not instant) aaaand it's quite easy to see why DE fails as a "sniper" concept.

    Just fyi, this was made in September

    Ah kitten, someone dug it out, didn't pay attention to the date it was posted.

    And you are wrong about it failing as a sniper concept simply because snipers usually wait before they kill their target.

    Yeah, they do... but the whole thing that makes it possible is being unnoticed, as in their target can't be aware of their presence. Sooo not really wrong.

    And jesus, linking to the sniper definition as an argument aside... Even by that standard you contradict yourself:
    You LITEREALLY just quoted this:

    snipers wait patiently for the unsuspecting soldiers

    And then commented with this:

    Deadeyes have to wait for malice to build before they can blow someone up with one Death's Judgement and they have to remain hidden or else they'll get pressured and possibly killed.

    Once you apply malice, you're no longer able to be unnoticed by your desired target.

    You must have not been playing Deadeye in PvP. Most don't realize they are being targeted. And those that do usually have trouble finding the a deadeye that's 1/4th competent in maneuvering.

  • Zacchary.6183Zacchary.6183 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    First of all you say that "people look at DE as a pve-only spec", which is false, beacuse in fact it's a really bad pve spec.
    Then -for pvp I assume- you say this:

    The reality is that Deadeye is a sniper. A sniper stays still, kills from afar and then gets the kitten out of dodge.

    The thing about the "sniper playstyle" is that it doesn't really work unless you have allies that can guard you from the enemies. If you start the fight at ~max range and kneel, it's really easy to get out and you don't really have the mobility to catch up. If you start closer, most -if not all- of the classes can easly gap-close to you and simply kill you.
    Combine that with the fact that you actually don't have the ability to insta-burst, because to reach your full potential (numbers hurr durr), you have to charge malice (which, whatever you like to claim, is not instant) aaaand it's quite easy to see why DE fails as a "sniper" concept.

    Just fyi, this was made in September

    Ah kitten, someone dug it out, didn't pay attention to the date it was posted.

    And you are wrong about it failing as a sniper concept simply because snipers usually wait before they kill their target.

    Yeah, they do... but the whole thing that makes it possible is being unnoticed, as in their target can't be aware of their presence. Sooo not really wrong.

    And jesus, linking to the sniper definition as an argument aside... Even by that standard you contradict yourself:
    You LITEREALLY just quoted this:

    snipers wait patiently for the unsuspecting soldiers

    And then commented with this:

    Deadeyes have to wait for malice to build before they can blow someone up with one Death's Judgement and they have to remain hidden or else they'll get pressured and possibly killed.

    Once you apply malice, you're no longer able to be unnoticed by your desired target.

    How am I contradicting myself? The sniper waits. The Deadeye waits.

    A good player can succeed with whatever is meta. A great player can succeed with whatever they want.
    [Vial of Salt]
    PSA: Deadeye isn't bad, you're just bad at using it.
    These DE tips are still relevant.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    @Sypher.8975 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    Stolen skills are also being maligned with peopel not having a clear idea of their potential. As example how does 20 seconds protection sound when fighting an Engineer along wih throwing two stacks of vuln with a skill that can not be reflected?

    Get your DE Might stacks on along with that malice and you can lay a whole lot of hurt on Mr Engineer from 1500 range.

    All fine on paper. The moment the engineer blocks and reflects all your shots is the moment you realize how bad the spec actually is (slow projectile speed making it easy to reflect/block/avoid). On top of that (since rocket boots became kinda meta), the engi (or holosmith w/e) is just gonna gapclose on your face and unleash a kitten burst on you. That's only an example with engineer. All other 8 classes can gapclose, block, avoid or reflect even better.

    The spec does not force you to use rifle. I can get that protection for 20 seconds and put 20 srtacks of VULN on the engineer whether I am using rifle, D/P ,D/D ,or any other weapon outide staff. Just because you play daredevil does not mean the players you face can not longer gap close. Indeed many of those things that close gaps require a target meaning the skill can not be used when you stealth. Daredevil does not allow more damage here, it allows more dodges.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    @Sypher.8975 said:
    Resilience of shadows was never that great. Shadow Arts was always a subpar traitline. What's 25% dmg reduction (not even sure if it works against condi dmg) when other classes have access to full immunity? Add another 10% to Iron Sites and we might have a decent build. 15% is just bullcrap. I disagree with daredevils not being a specific counter. Deadeye casts almost every skill, while daredevil has access to a floads of interrupts combined with impacting disruptor. That alone makes deadeye the worst possible choice against a daredevil.

    You do not look at a skill on its own. Resilience of shadows is in the minor GM slot the same as exposed weakness. On its own exposed weakness with 10 percent more damage is not all that great. It becomes much more then that when it used in conjunction with other damage modifiers.

    Shadows reslience used with Iron sights can cut damage incoming by about 40 percent while stealthed. It better then protection. In WvW just as people take foods that add damage (sigil of force) you can use the 10 percent mitigated incoming damage food. Thats close to half damage mitigated as it comes in (I understand it mulpicative this just generalizing)

    Now you Take CIS and while stealthed you can niot be critted. No D/P thief is going to Steal any of those things from you and while he can steal protection when you do get it THAT will be his only source for the next 25 seconds and you can just steal it back. So now you got 15% less damage, 10 percent less damage, 25 less percent damage ,33 percent less percent damage. All of the D/P daredevils traits that boost damage are neutralized when you stealth.

    Now take CIS. He can not crit you. When you are stealthed the Daredevil will lose better then half his damage output and be unable to land any crits. You can pull this off against a thief FAR more frequently then those other classes can get full immunity. its not once every 60 seconds like an endure pain and when you are getting this mitigation you are stealthed.

  • Saraneth.6021Saraneth.6021 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sypher.8975 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    Stolen skills are also being maligned with peopel not having a clear idea of their potential. As example how does 20 seconds protection sound when fighting an Engineer along wih throwing two stacks of vuln with a skill that can not be reflected?

    Get your DE Might stacks on along with that malice and you can lay a whole lot of hurt on Mr Engineer from 1500 range.

    All fine on paper. The moment the engineer blocks and reflects all your shots is the moment you realize how bad the spec actually is (slow projectile speed making it easy to reflect/block/avoid). On top of that (since rocket boots became kinda meta), the engi (or holosmith w/e) is just gonna gapclose on your face and unleash a kitten burst on you. That's only an example with engineer. All other 8 classes can gapclose, block, avoid or reflect even better.

    The spec does not force you to use rifle.

    Sick of hearing this kitten. No it doesn't FORCE you to use it, but the whole kitten idea of the deadeye was rifle!

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Saraneth.6021 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sypher.8975 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    Stolen skills are also being maligned with peopel not having a clear idea of their potential. As example how does 20 seconds protection sound when fighting an Engineer along wih throwing two stacks of vuln with a skill that can not be reflected?

    Get your DE Might stacks on along with that malice and you can lay a whole lot of hurt on Mr Engineer from 1500 range.

    All fine on paper. The moment the engineer blocks and reflects all your shots is the moment you realize how bad the spec actually is (slow projectile speed making it easy to reflect/block/avoid). On top of that (since rocket boots became kinda meta), the engi (or holosmith w/e) is just gonna gapclose on your face and unleash a kitten burst on you. That's only an example with engineer. All other 8 classes can gapclose, block, avoid or reflect even better.

    The spec does not force you to use rifle.

    Sick of hearing this kitten. No it doesn't FORCE you to use it, but the whole kitten idea of the deadeye was rifle!

    If you want to argue as to why Daredevil superior then stick to arguing about staff and only staff.

    The reason you are sick of hearing about the ability to use other weapons in teh SPEC called DE is you are unable to counter those arguments .

  • Barzah.8019Barzah.8019 Member ✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    @Zacchary.6183: Saw many thief out there that finally able to utilize deadeye potential, yet this situation only occur on any weapon but rifle. Yes in perfect situation, rifle could unleash huge damage by using DJ but there are many problem out there like range inconsistency (get 1200 range while kneeling), obstruction bug, shooting blank when the enemy is under 400 range (mostly occur on PvP), lower malice gain rate compared to other power spec weapon, less than 10 second shooting window time when inside the hot zone (5 second at full passive), and a necessity to take sniper cover and hidden malice trait to make your rifle worth using.

    If this "hindrance" can be addressed by @net, rifle is definitely going to shine. Otherwise, this weapon only fit type of player that seek extreme challenge in order to perform regularly when compared to other meta spec out there.

  • Saraneth.6021Saraneth.6021 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Saraneth.6021 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sypher.8975 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    Stolen skills are also being maligned with peopel not having a clear idea of their potential. As example how does 20 seconds protection sound when fighting an Engineer along wih throwing two stacks of vuln with a skill that can not be reflected?

    Get your DE Might stacks on along with that malice and you can lay a whole lot of hurt on Mr Engineer from 1500 range.

    All fine on paper. The moment the engineer blocks and reflects all your shots is the moment you realize how bad the spec actually is (slow projectile speed making it easy to reflect/block/avoid). On top of that (since rocket boots became kinda meta), the engi (or holosmith w/e) is just gonna gapclose on your face and unleash a kitten burst on you. That's only an example with engineer. All other 8 classes can gapclose, block, avoid or reflect even better.

    The spec does not force you to use rifle.

    Sick of hearing this kitten. No it doesn't FORCE you to use it, but the whole kitten idea of the deadeye was rifle!

    If you want to argue as to why Daredevil superior then stick to arguing about staff and only staff.

    The reason you are sick of hearing about the ability to use other weapons in teh SPEC called DE is you are unable to counter those arguments .

    What? Not talking about DD staff, talking about DE rifle. Seriously, are you stoned?

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    @Saraneth.6021 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Saraneth.6021 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Sypher.8975 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    Stolen skills are also being maligned with peopel not having a clear idea of their potential. As example how does 20 seconds protection sound when fighting an Engineer along wih throwing two stacks of vuln with a skill that can not be reflected?

    Get your DE Might stacks on along with that malice and you can lay a whole lot of hurt on Mr Engineer from 1500 range.

    All fine on paper. The moment the engineer blocks and reflects all your shots is the moment you realize how bad the spec actually is (slow projectile speed making it easy to reflect/block/avoid). On top of that (since rocket boots became kinda meta), the engi (or holosmith w/e) is just gonna gapclose on your face and unleash a kitten burst on you. That's only an example with engineer. All other 8 classes can gapclose, block, avoid or reflect even better.

    The spec does not force you to use rifle.

    Sick of hearing this kitten. No it doesn't FORCE you to use it, but the whole kitten idea of the deadeye was rifle!

    If you want to argue as to why Daredevil superior then stick to arguing about staff and only staff.

    The reason you are sick of hearing about the ability to use other weapons in teh SPEC called DE is you are unable to counter those arguments .

    What? Not talking about DD staff, talking about DE rifle. Seriously, are you stoned?

    The thread is labled DE , Damage and Boonwalls. It is not labeled rifle. Boons come from th Spec DE and not from Rifle. The OP started the thred by pointing out how boons can be spread to allies. This does not need a rifle. Apparently some are unaware of that.

  • knyy.6427knyy.6427 Member ✭✭

    PvE: with perma revealed being a thing on some raidbosses d/d is not viable on those and with sword dmg being low, the only hope is/was rifle dmg being meta. That's what you "normally" wanna play if you choose DE (yes, that's my assumption). As I just said, other weapon specs are not really viable.

    You could say "hey d/d is viable on all bosses where there is no perma reveal. But that's like Anet introduces some destroyer bosses which are immune to burning. Then you will see the outcry of fb etc. That this can't be in the game.
    But hey, they could just spec into DH or whatever as well. This won't be happening, but just as an example.

    Perma reveal has to go away.

  • Ok I read the back & forth and it all started with being a sniper. The idea that Malice will compromise your presence is valid, however due to it's 1500 range, you are not compromising your position. You can apply Malice and Kneel to stealth and no one can see where you are until it's too late. Just like any sniper, even if their presence is known, the target can still not able to locate them. As long as that is the case, you can kneel in the same place and wait for Malice to build up. Even if your position is compromise, Shadow Meld can ensure your escape. So I don't think that there's a contradiction anywhere as one claims and it sounds like trolling to me.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Zacchary.6183Zacchary.6183 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Ok I read the back & forth and it all started with being a sniper. The idea that Malice will compromise your presence is valid, however due to it's 1500 range, you are not compromising your position. You can apply Malice and Kneel to stealth and no one can see where you are until it's too late. Just like any sniper, even if their presence is known, the target can still not able to locate them. As long as that is the case, you can kneel in the same place and wait for Malice to build up. Even if your position is compromise, Shadow Meld can ensure your escape. So I don't think that there's a contradiction anywhere as one claims and it sounds like trolling to me.

    \o/ Thank you!
    It was that simple.

    A good player can succeed with whatever is meta. A great player can succeed with whatever they want.
    [Vial of Salt]
    PSA: Deadeye isn't bad, you're just bad at using it.
    These DE tips are still relevant.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2017

    It's not that simple, because it goes right back to my point:
    You give away to your target that you're around and everyone knows that you need malice to deal burst dmg. At that point you can't "just kneel and wait", because that won't be enough dmg to burst anyone down. Also -again as I wrote before (in case you forgot about that post already)- the kneel puts you in the position where when someone wants to fight back, it's easy because of the overall mobility of pretty much every class in the game. On the other hand if someone doesn't want to fight you, you won't catch up to anyone because you lost your mobility by going DE.
    And yes, you contradicted yourself (and by "yourself" I mean the definition you copy-pasted) there.

    Overally DE is kitten in pve and doesn't work in pvp like it should because of the limitations that pretty much "make that class" in the world of mobility based game like this.

  • @Sobx.1758 said:
    It's not that simple, because it goes right back to my point:
    You give away to your target that you're around and everyone knows that you need malice to deal burst dmg. At that point you can't "just kneel and wait", because that won't be enough dmg to burst anyone down. Also -again as I wrote before (in case you forgot about that post already)- the kneel puts you in the position where when someone wants to fight back, it's easy because of the overall mobility of pretty much every class in the game. On the other hand if someone doesn't want to fight you, you won't catch up to anyone because you lost your mobility by going DE.
    And yes, you contradicted yourself (and by "yourself" I mean the definition you copy-pasted) there.

    The very existence of DE already made everyone vigilant even though DE aren't around. Even if someone choose to run, it wouldn't matter much, but if they choose to fight, the DE has the element of surprise. Silent Scope puts the DE in stealth when kneeling and you can extend that stealth with Shadow Meld and remain hidden while the Malice build up. If the DE screwed up their surprise, they can just reset the fight and try again. DE has a lot of escape and it seems that you're not familiar with it because you have not played DE at all, you're basing your argument on what you read on paper. Well, I can tell you this, there's a lot of things on paper that don't work or works differently in game. Besides, you don't need full Malice to deal 20k in 2 seconds if you build your DE the right way. I was on the receiving end of Zacchary.6183's burst when we're testing DE out and I'm telling you even with my Reaper's 22k HP and 2300 armor, I received 20k damage in 2 seconds -- just imagine someone wearing berserkers.

    The point is, Zacchary.6183 is talking from experience while you're just arguing for whatever it is you're trying to accomplish.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Zacchary.6183Zacchary.6183 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    It's not that simple, because it goes right back to my point:

    It's a simple thing to do to explain your point which was something I have been trying to get you to do for the past few days. You did not explain it well and it took someone jumping into the conversation to clarify what you said in order for that to happen.

    You give away to your target that you're around and everyone knows that you need malice to deal burst dmg. At that point you can't "just kneel and wait", because that won't be enough dmg to burst anyone down. Also -again as I wrote before- the kneel puts you in the position where when someone wants to fight back, it's easy because of the overall mobility of pretty much every class in the game. On the other hand if someone doesn't want to fight you, you won't catch up to anyone because you lost your mobility by going DE.

    Yet, like SirVincent said, even if your presence is known your position isn't compromised and you can still build up malice without having to get into major conflict. At that point, if someone wants to fight or run away, they best hurry up because the DE can put out significant numbers in a short amount of time.

    And yes, you contradicted yourself (and by "yourself" I mean the definition you copy-pasted) there.

    And you have yet to explain how that is contradictory.

    A good player can succeed with whatever is meta. A great player can succeed with whatever they want.
    [Vial of Salt]
    PSA: Deadeye isn't bad, you're just bad at using it.
    These DE tips are still relevant.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2017

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    It's not that simple, because it goes right back to my point:
    You give away to your target that you're around and everyone knows that you need malice to deal burst dmg. At that point you can't "just kneel and wait", because that won't be enough dmg to burst anyone down. Also -again as I wrote before (in case you forgot about that post already)- the kneel puts you in the position where when someone wants to fight back, it's easy because of the overall mobility of pretty much every class in the game. On the other hand if someone doesn't want to fight you, you won't catch up to anyone because you lost your mobility by going DE.
    And yes, you contradicted yourself (and by "yourself" I mean the definition you copy-pasted) there.

    The very existence of DE already made everyone vigilant even though DE aren't around. Even if someone choose to run, it wouldn't matter much, but if they choose to fight, the DE has the element of surprise. Silent Scope puts the DE in stealth when kneeling and you can extend that stealth with Shadow Meld and remain hidden while the Malice build up. If the DE screwed up their surprise, they can just reset the fight and try again. DE has a lot of escape and it seems that you're not familiar with it because you have not played DE at all, you're basing your argument on what you read on paper. Well, I can tell you this, there's a lot of things on paper that don't work or works differently in game. Besides, you don't need full Malice to deal 20k in 2 seconds if you build your DE the right way. I was on the receiving end of Zacchary.6183's burst when we're testing DE out and I'm telling you even with my Reaper's 22k HP and 2300 armor, I received 20k damage in 2 seconds -- just imagine someone wearing berserkers.

    The point is, Zacchary.6183 is talking from experience while you're just arguing for whatever it is you're trying to accomplish.

    "existence of DE already made everyone vigilant"? What? That's seriously new to me, frmo my experience nobody cares. When I see DE while I play DD, I don't really care because I can pop him off and if I don't want to fight for one reason or another, he can't catch me anyways. Who (and why) is so "vigilant" solely because of DE existance? I don't see where that came from at all. And "DE aren't around" for a reason.
    DE has to use malice to start a fight, which pretty much -AGAIN- negates any and all "element of surprise" arguments. The whole point is that there is no element of surprise and you pretty much won't start a fight without letting your target know that you intend to fight him.
    Also I know DE and I've played it enough, so yo can stop trying to patronizingly "explain to me what his traits do".

    It's not "on paper", at the current state DE doesn't work like it should and it's a fact.

    I was on the receiving end of Zacchary.6183's

    And theeeeere it is, I suspected you're connected to that guy in one way or another and that's why you "mysteriously appeared" in this thread all of a sudden.
    Well, not a surprise.


    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    It's not that simple, because it goes right back to my point:

    It's a simple thing to do to explain your point which was something I have been trying to get you to do for the past few days. You did not explain it well and it took someone jumping into the conversation to clarify what you said in order for that to happen.

    The thing is, I already did and you just failed to understand it. Why? I already told you, so I'll just stop repeating myself.
    Now you say "it was so easy to explain my point", meanwhile all I did was water down my first 2 posts in this thread. Suddenly you claim that's enough? Well... ok?

    You give away to your target that you're around and everyone knows that you need malice to deal burst dmg. At that point you can't "just kneel and wait", because that won't be enough dmg to burst anyone down. Also -again as I wrote before- the kneel puts you in the position where when someone wants to fight back, it's easy because of the overall mobility of pretty much every class in the game. On the other hand if someone doesn't want to fight you, you won't catch up to anyone because you lost your mobility by going DE.

    Yet, like SirVincent said, even if your presence is known your position isn't compromised and you can still build up malice without having to get into major conflict. At that point, if someone wants to fight or run away, they best hurry up because the DE can put out significant numbers in a short amount of time.

    Either way it's not a "surprise engage" anymore when your presence in the area is obvious. You can't "catch someone off guard" when you scream at him that you'll start a fight soon.

    And yes, you contradicted yourself (and by "yourself" I mean the definition you copy-pasted) there.

    And you have yet to explain how that is contradictory.

    Yup, I did.

  • Zacchary.6183Zacchary.6183 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2017

    @Sobx.1758

    Yeah, I asked him to read through everything and clarify for me what the hell you are talking about, because you either refuse to explain or are incapable of explaining your points. This is one of the points I made about you and the fact that it requires a third party to clarify your point proves my point right. You're "explanation" you keep talking about is barely an explanation at all. You inject what you think is going on and make it seem that is how something works when the reality is: it doesn't.

    So queue the third party who not only gave me the explanation I asked you to give for the past few days, but confirmed that I am not contradicting myself. So you are, again, wrong on multiple accounts. You might have played DE enough for you, but you are nowhere near experienced enough with the spec to give a valid opinion on it.

    I still can't believe I had to get a third party in on this to show you you are wrong.

    A good player can succeed with whatever is meta. A great player can succeed with whatever they want.
    [Vial of Salt]
    PSA: Deadeye isn't bad, you're just bad at using it.
    These DE tips are still relevant.

This discussion has been closed.
©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.