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The Nerf that Went too Far


pah.4931

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This is from an SPvP perspective.

Firebrand nerfs were needed. No doubt about that. It was way too easy to spam buttons and swing fights. However, there is one nerf that took things too far, and--imo--neutered a great support profession. They could have tweaked number, increased cooldowns, etc ... but instead, like always, the changed way too much too quickly, without any public testing or feedback... and now here we are.

REMOVING AEGIS FROM TOME OF COURAGE [F3] #1 ABILITY WAS A MISTAKE.

Here's why:

  1. It makes the #1 ability almost useless. There is no reason to ever spam Stab + Swiftness (other than maybe mist essence grabs in Stronghold?)...
  2. It makes popping into ToC a liability, not an asset. Sure #4 and #5 are strong (and #3 has it's lol meme moments), but they have long cool downs. Which means during a team fight, you literally REMOVE all weapon abilities (and the ability to do damage) to use two abilities on long cooldowns, while sitting around and contributing almost nothing in between.
  3. It makes popping into Tome of Justice too dangerous. Before these nerfs, one could pop into ToJ for the great pull CC or for the #4 AoE burn to give the team a little extra damage. This made yourself vulnerable to being targeted and burst down, but you could always pop into ToC for extra aegis (and heals from the trait). As is, unless you are just in "win more mode" ToJ is far too risky to even attempt in a team fight on point, or even 1v1 (which could be effective in hybrid support builds).
  4. ToC #2 ability is lame and adding aegis (to self only) makes it just slightly less lame. Usually you're getting focused as support anyways (against any good team) so the taunt + aegis on a low CD is not very helpful and is too situational to help much.
  5. In most team fights, you would have been better off with another DPS. Sure, the current FB can go full-on bunker and hold points well enough. But in a good team fight, you'd have been much better off with another dps, instead of a prof that is just OK at dps and just OK at support.
  6. ToC #1 was FBs only real defense against bursty power builds. Power spike damage was our biggest weakness BEFORE these nerfs. Now it's just absurd.
  7. Druid is just better all around and FB offers very little that Druid can't do better.

WHAT THEY COULD HAVE DONE:

  1. Increase CD of ToC (also, disable its refresh from trait).
  2. Increase CD of ToC #1 (one or two seconds).
  3. Limit aegis to self only on ToC #1 and give group aegis on ToC #2.
  4. Give debuff to characters that reduced aegis effectiveness (diminished returns) for a short time after blocking an attack.
  5. Make the cone blast from ToC #1 smaller, so it's harder to hit allies (and more skillful to play).
  6. ETC

Instead, Anet, like always, took the lazy route and just blew shit up. Are we still OK? Sure. But do we have a role in sPvP other than full-out bunker (snooze)... not really. So, mostly because Scourges were a huge mistake and didn't fit into Conquest at all... FBs are punished for it. Neato. Thanks for the "Balance" ... I will enjoy getting WRECKED by Power Holos and Power Mesmers for the next 4 months.

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  1. 60s base cd is already pushing it into the territory of excessive CDs. Not to mention with the minor trait in valor and RF, a FB guard can actually have pretty decent ToC uptime.
  2. Can't. The #1 skill on each tome is meant to be spammable.
  3. This would have been the best change imo.
  4. This would be a fairly large balance issue that would affect more builds and classes, no can do.
  5. Not a good way to balance the skill imo.

I don't like what Anet did either... other than your suggestion #3, I think what they did is the right idea: nerf FB without nerfing core guard.

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@Arcaedus.7290 said:

  1. 60s base cd is already pushing it into the territory of excessive CDs. Not to mention with the minor trait in valor and RF, a FB guard can actually have pretty decent ToC uptime.
  2. Can't. The #1 skill on each tome is meant to be spammable.
  3. This would have been the best change imo.
  4. This would be a fairly large balance issue that would affect more builds and classes, no can do.
  5. Not a good way to balance the skill imo.

I don't like what Anet did either... other than your suggestion #3, I think what they did is the right idea: nerf FB without nerfing core guard.

RE: Number 2: But a useless spammable #1 is worse than not making it spammable, no?

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I expected nerfs to 1) Healing output (since we also have lots of aegis) and 2) cooldown/recharge times (to wit: on Solace and Liberation). Which would have been enough. Instead, we got all that AND ToC absolutely wrecked.

Seriously. Last night I played a few games and every time I popped into ToC, I threw down #4 (hello scourges) and did a #5 then sat there like a goober. Who needs Stab and Swiftness spams??? If you use your tomes, you get destroyed. The opposite of that should happen.

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@"Lynnie.7213" said:The issue for me is that they nerfed Healing AND aegis. Choose only one! Now if we get focused there isn't much we can do anymore. Also the extra 10 seconds on Elite mantra is awful, specially if you are fighting solo. Spellbreakers will eat you alive.

Couldn't agree more. It feels lie the changes to ToC were last minute and not thought out AT ALL. You can't remove both healing output AND aegis AND add 10s to the elite recharge (which might as well be 10 minutes in pvp). They should have picked from that list, not "all of the aboved" it.

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@Lynnie.7213 said:The issue for me is that they nerfed Healing AND aegis. Choose only one! Now if we get focused there isn't much we can do anymore. Also the extra 10 seconds on Elite mantra is awful, specially if you are fighting solo. Spellbreakers will eat you alive.

I agreed with certain nerfs (like f3 skill 1) but taken together, all the nerfs amount to a hefty nerf to what I would say is a majority of viable/effective FB builds. Mantra of liberation wasn't OP considering other classes have stunbreakers with 10-15s CDs.

The nerf to healing (both f2 tome and mantra heal) were too much though. Bunker FB was cancerous but these nerfs really hurt offense-based FB sustain.

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@Lynnie.7213 said:The issue for me is that they nerfed Healing AND aegis. Choose only one! Now if we get focused there isn't much we can do anymore. Also the extra 10 seconds on Elite mantra is awful, specially if you are fighting solo. Spellbreakers will eat you alive.

You thought it would be worse than removing Firebrand build diversity? What were your expectations?

I've never met a single person who supports the removal of build diversity... this change was 100% foolish.

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@Arcaedus.7290 said:

@"Lynnie.7213" said:The issue for me is that they nerfed Healing AND aegis. Choose only one! Now if we get focused there isn't much we can do anymore. Also the extra 10 seconds on Elite mantra is awful, specially if you are fighting solo. Spellbreakers will eat you alive.

I agreed with certain nerfs (like f3 skill 1) but taken together, all the nerfs amount to a hefty nerf to what I would say is a majority of viable/effective FB builds. Mantra of liberation wasn't OP considering other classes have stunbreakers with 10-15s CDs.

The nerf to healing (both f2 tome and mantra heal) were too much though. Bunker FB was cancerous but these nerfs really hurt offense-based FB sustain.

I agree that F3 #1 was strong as hell. But the WAY they changed was so utterly lazy and thoughtless, it's mind-boggling. It feels as if they made the change 5 minutes before the patch hit.

"Oh. Right. Uh... just remove aegis."

There is absolute NO reason to have an ability that can spam Stab/Swiftness, especially on an ability that removes the entire weapon kit. As a FB you now literally sit there doing NOTHING for 10 seconds waiting for #4 to come off cooldown (and that's just if condi is around, if there is any power dps you just CANNOT use Tome of Courage).

And since Tome of Courage was destroyed so badly, now it's almost impossible to use Tome of Justice because we can't risk being vulnerable to damage because we literally have no way to recover.

Short-sighted, thoughtless, unnecessary nerfs.

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@pah.4931 said:

@"Lynnie.7213" said:The issue for me is that they nerfed Healing AND aegis. Choose only one! Now if we get focused there isn't much we can do anymore. Also the extra 10 seconds on Elite mantra is awful, specially if you are fighting solo. Spellbreakers will eat you alive.

I agreed with certain nerfs (like f3 skill 1) but taken together, all the nerfs amount to a hefty nerf to what I would say is a majority of viable/effective FB builds. Mantra of liberation wasn't OP considering other classes have stunbreakers with 10-15s CDs.

The nerf to healing (both f2 tome and mantra heal) were too much though. Bunker FB was cancerous but these nerfs really hurt offense-based FB sustain.

I agree that F3 #1 was strong as hell. But the WAY they changed was so utterly lazy and thoughtless, it's mind-boggling. It feels as if they made the change 5 minutes before the patch hit.

"Oh. Right. Uh... just remove aegis."

There is absolute NO reason to have an ability that can spam Stab/Swiftness, especially on an ability that removes the entire weapon kit. As a FB you now literally sit there doing NOTHING for 10 seconds waiting for #4 to come off cooldown (and that's just if condi is around, if there is any power dps you just CANNOT use Tome of Courage).

And since Tome of Courage was destroyed so badly, now it's almost impossible to use Tome of Justice because we can't risk being vulnerable to damage because we literally have no way to recover.

Short-sighted, thoughtless, unnecessary nerfs.

Would be nice if they added some sort of dips to the 1 skills of ToC and ToR just for the reason of losing your weapon skills.

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I don't use ToC#1 at all in a team fight. #2 then #5 assuming I don't need #4 right away vs Scourge.

The awkwardness is after using these two or 3 pages I leave ToC with 5 or 6 unused pages... there is nothing else to use except 2 aegis's and/or resistance spam... staying in F3 will likely kill you if your vs power classes, now imagine that..

I'm contemplating using Liberator's Vow (quickness) over Archivist of Whispers(3+ pages). Heck, some Firebrand's were using Liberator's Vow prepatch.

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@Saiyan.1704 said:I don't use ToC#1 at all in a team fight. #2 then #5 assuming I don't need #4 right away vs Scourge.

The awkwardness is after using these two or 3 pages I leave ToC with 5 or 6 unused pages... there is nothing else to use except 2 aegis's and/or resistance spam... staying in F3 will likely kill you if your vs power classes, now imagine that..

I'm contemplating using Liberator's Vow (quickness) over Archivist of Whispers(3+ pages). Heck, some Firebrand's were using Liberator's Vow prepatch.

I am contemplating the same. Maybe that was their intent. But still, right now going into Tomes is a liability, not a fun experience.

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I just popped in for my three games and now i have super massive Problems with Support tank firebrand (the metabattle build). I wasn't sure if it was just me. or the build. But i couldn't see if i became just bad over night.

He feels so useless and week. I just get bursted down in Zero seconds. Maybe i am able to heal a lot but i somehow feel useless most of the time.

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I feel you, but bro book 3 was absurd man. It was range denial to the degree my mesmer could pull of traiting like 4 traits to have that kinda reflection up time and you guys got it just for being a FB.

Keep in mind i generally melee but my god that Bubble was way to large and long and basically had rotating cds so it had like 90% uptime. I'm not a fan of many of the nerfs in this patch but fb book 3 needed it nothing else did tho.

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@Genesis.5169 said:I feel you, but bro book 3 was absurd man. It was range denial to the degree my mesmer could pull of traiting like 4 traits to have that kinda reflection up time and you guys got it just for being a FB.

Keep in mind i generally melee but my god that Bubble was way to large and long and basically had rotating cds so it had like 90% uptime. I'm not a fan of many of the nerfs in this patch but fb book 3 needed it nothing else did tho.

Mesmer doesn't have to sit with a tome open and do nothing to have the same projectile denial. And that's not even what they nerfed, so why does it matter?

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@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Genesis.5169 said:I feel you, but bro book 3 was absurd man. It was range denial to the degree my mesmer could pull of traiting like 4 traits to have that kinda reflection up time and you guys got it just for being a FB.

Keep in mind i generally melee but my god that Bubble was way to large and long and basically had rotating cds so it had like 90% uptime. I'm not a fan of many of the nerfs in this patch but fb book 3 needed it nothing else did tho.

Mesmer doesn't have to sit with a tome open and do nothing to have the same projectile denial. And that's not even what they nerfed, so why does it matter?

What do you mean do nothing is the tome not doing something?Pressing 1 button is hard?WTF?Son i gotta well time my dodge or or heal or trait manipulations to get that kinda reflection up time and mesmers supposed to be the utility gods you guys got it for being a FB by default don't compare crap like that and expect me to take you seriously.

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@pah.4931 said:

@"Saiyan.1704" said:I don't use ToC#1 at all in a team fight. #2 then #5 assuming I don't need #4 right away vs Scourge.

The awkwardness is after using these two or 3 pages I leave ToC with 5 or 6 unused pages... there is nothing else to use except 2 aegis's and/or resistance spam... staying in F3 will likely
kill you
if your vs power classes, now imagine that..

I'm contemplating using Liberator's Vow (quickness) over Archivist of Whispers(3+ pages). Heck, some Firebrand's were using Liberator's Vow prepatch.

I am contemplating the same. Maybe that was their intent. But still, right now going into Tomes is a liability, not a fun experience.

Anet will turn Tomes as usefull as spirit weapons soon, when something that counters the DPS race like book 3 did.. nope cant exist... "here take a useless grandmastert trait that is way worse than the last one".

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@Genesis.5169 said:

@Genesis.5169 said:I feel you, but bro book 3 was absurd man. It was range denial to the degree my mesmer could pull of traiting like 4 traits to have that kinda reflection up time and you guys got it just for being a FB.

Keep in mind i generally melee but my god that Bubble was way to large and long and basically had rotating cds so it had like 90% uptime. I'm not a fan of many of the nerfs in this patch but fb book 3 needed it nothing else did tho.

Mesmer doesn't have to sit with a tome open and do nothing to have the same projectile denial. And that's not even what they nerfed, so why does it matter?

What do you mean do nothing is the tome not doing something?Pressing 1 button is hard?kitten?Son i gotta well time my dodge or or heal or trait manipulations to get that kinda reflection up time and mesmers supposed to be the utility gods you guys got it for being a FB by default don't compare crap like that and expect me to take you seriously.

What he means is that while in Tome of Courage (F3), you are unable to do ANY damage. So sure, you can deny ranged with almost complete uptime, but you contribute nothing but support. If you're team is any good at all, they can force you out of the bubble. And now that Tome 3 is effectively useless, it's liability to pop into. You are way too vulnerable to even bother using it.

Also, they didn't nerf the range reflect bubble. So that is still useable. Problem is... it really wasn't THAT great to begin with. Firebrands NEEDED that aegis access to be viable in PvP. Otherwise, other classes bunker better, other classes support better, other classes dps better. What do we bring to the table? Jack of none, master of none.

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@Genesis.5169 said:

@Genesis.5169 said:I feel you, but bro book 3 was absurd man. It was range denial to the degree my mesmer could pull of traiting like 4 traits to have that kinda reflection up time and you guys got it just for being a FB.

Keep in mind i generally melee but my god that Bubble was way to large and long and basically had rotating cds so it had like 90% uptime. I'm not a fan of many of the nerfs in this patch but fb book 3 needed it nothing else did tho.

Mesmer doesn't have to sit with a tome open and do nothing to have the same projectile denial. And that's not even what they nerfed, so why does it matter?

What do you mean do nothing is the tome not doing something?Pressing 1 button is hard?kitten?Son i gotta well time my dodge or or heal or trait manipulations to get that kinda reflection up time and mesmers supposed to be the utility gods you guys got it for being a FB by default don't compare crap like that and expect me to take you seriously.

Who told you that mesmer is supposed to be the utility gods? And what do you suppose guardian is, if not a support class? Get off your high horse. Different professions are different. Guardian has to slot RF as their elite to get invulnerability. You get invulnerability just for being mesmer, and it can last up to 4s, and you can even cast skills while invulnerable.

You realise tomes have charges, right? And that they don't go on cooldown until you drop them? Staying in F3 to put up bubbles, means that I have no weapon to do damage with and very few defensive options especially now that F3 has very limited aegis. And I'm delaying my next F3 cast by sitting in the tome for so long. And I am not using my weapon skills and other tomes to support my team.

What is pressing 1 good for? It does no damage, and it gives swiftness, protection and stability. How is that going to help me exactly when there's someone focusing me. Or do you suppose in a competitive environment people are going to ignore someone spamming bubbles?

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@Genesis.5169 said:I feel you, but bro book 3 was absurd man. It was range denial to the degree my mesmer could pull of traiting like 4 traits to have that kinda reflection up time and you guys got it just for being a FB.

Keep in mind i generally melee but my god that Bubble was way to large and long and basically had rotating cds so it had like 90% uptime. I'm not a fan of many of the nerfs in this patch but fb book 3 needed it nothing else did tho.

A Mesmer traited and using skills to gain self reflection can still move freely and keep all that reflection and most importantly can STILL perform all of their damage skills through having their weapons available...

A Firebrand using Tome of Courage has no offensive 1-5 skills available and no access to weapons. (We're talking range denial, so a PBAoE taunt with damage doesn't count.)

You can't compare the two, the fact that you did shows you are very ignorant or you know this is a completely meaningless comparison, in which case your post is meaningless at best and a troll at worst.

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