Druid - Post 2/6/2018 Patch - Druid Players Give Feedback

I see a lot of complaints about Druid after the patch and it is rightly placed, but there are too many players throwing nerf suggestions that are incorrectly placed. I made this thread in hopes of Druid players giving knowledgeable feedback for Arenanet to read, and to help other players understand the dynamic of the Druid class, how it plays, and how to better place balance change suggestions. The intra-class balance feels much better and headed in the right direction after the 2/6/2018 patch. The only thing that really needs attention now is Druid, and this is coming from a Ranger/Druid main of many years and now also a Soulbeast player. But it does need the right kind of attention and not the wrong kind.

Here is my personal opinion & response to what I've been reading in the forums lately:-1. Stop suggesting nerfs to weapons/utilities/pets or Core Ranger specializations. Core Ranger is in a great spot concerning balance right now, as well as the weapons/utilities/pets. This even applies to Soulbeast. Nothing needs to be changed other than Druid specialization functions-2. Need to put a special emphasis on "stop suggesting nerfs to pets." Players need to understand that pets paired with Core Ranger or Soulbeast, are not the issue. The issue is that Druids can go full bunker while maintaining pet DPS, which is highly responsible for the Druid's 1v1 capabilities. If a Core Ranger or Soulbeast were to try and go full bunker and do the same thing, it wouldn't work. It also seems easy to suggest "making pets scale with amulet stats" so that a mender Druid would have low damage pets but players who are suggesting this are not thinking this through. What happens when a mender Druid is using amulet scaled pets with auto heals and F2 heals? What happens when a Soulbeast wearing serk stats bursts at the same time as his 25 might & fury buffed smokescale who scales with amulet stats? These kind of half thought out suggestions would in reality create more problems than they are solving. Again, the issue is entirely isolated within the Druid specialization and it's ability to maintain pet DPS and use it's healing to keep the pet alive. This makes it feel like the pets are OP but I assure you, that it is the Druid specialization that makes the pets feel OP.-3. Suggesting nerfs to Celestial Avatar healing will do little to nothing at all and here is why: Good Druids barely ever use any skills out of CA other than #3 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lunar_Impact and #5 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Convergence They use #3 for a quick burst heal or interrupt before stealth disengage and #5 for various reasons concerning AoE CCing. But even those skills, a good Druid considers not using at all because the real secret to Druid sustain/survival is by maximizing the uptime usage of these two Druid specialization traits: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Druidic_Clarity and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Shadow A good Druid does not burn their CA bar on small #1 spam heals, small condi clear #2s or even #4 channels because it burns too much CA bar and they have to stand sort of stationary without dodge rolling to do it. This isn't worth the CA burn when someone is on a node DPSing them. The goal is to preserve CA bar so that it recharges more quickly so that they can repeatedly use Druidic Clarity and Celestial Shadow, which allows them to mitigate damage entirely rather than trying to face tank heal through it. In other words, most of the Druid's healing is coming from #6 hard heal skills, regeneration boons, pet heals and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rugged_Growth if they run wilderness survival. <- Rugged Growth is in my opinion a very powerful trait and it would seem easy to suggest nerfing it, but Core Ranger and Soulbeast actually need it. So again, the problem is within the Druid specialization and the above information shows what it really is that is keeping them alive = Constant cycling of stun breaks/full bar condi clears/stealth & super speed disengages and repositions. If it weren't for these, Druids would die quickly despite the heal factor.-4. Suggesting various nerfs to staff will result in an overall class specialization imbalance. Players have got to start looking at things in broader aspects. Sure, we could nerf staff 1 heals or staff 3 heal or maybe even extend staff 3 CD but this is all suggestion for JUST a mender Druid in spvp? What about Druids wearing various gear sets in other game modes? What about Druids who aren't even using a staff at all? When they kill players with a LB will they suggest LB nerfs? It's another situation where a half thought out suggestion will attempt to solve one problem at the cost of creating several new problems. And aside from that, Druid is the one class that can actually play with no weapon at all and still be nearly as functional as it is with one. It can still sustain you with #6 hard heals, regens and utilities and still kill you with pet damage. So you've got to ask yourself, is staff really the issue here? Even if its pet had no DPS, it would run a heal pet and still sustain you perpetually in a 1v1 on a node, with no weapon in hand. Looking back on it all, what really is the issue that makes the Druid so annoying and hard to kill? = Druidic Clarity/Celestial Shadow.-5. Druids do need both of the full condi clears from https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Druidic_Clarity and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Renewal. Suggesting changes to Renewal would be too detrimental to Core Ranger/Soulbeast and suggesting changes to Druidic Clarity need to be considered with reason.-6. Druids do need the stun break on https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Druidic_Clarity and they need the stealth & super speed from https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Shadow but do they need it so often or for so long of a duration? This is where the question of balance/nerfing really needs to be in my opinion.

So I don't know how to make this any clearer than by stating: "We do not need any nerfs that effect Core Ranger or Soulbeast in any way. The issue at hand lies entirely within the Druid specialization." These are my personal ideas for patching:

• Druidic Clarity now initiates a class ability that pulses 2 condi removals every 1 second for 6 seconds, rather than immediately cleansing 13 condis. This significantly reduces the Druid's ability to instantly mitigate condition bursts and gives it more incentive to use CA #2 condi clear skill before so easily being able to go out of CA and into stealth/super speed disengage. this adds a significant amount of pressure vs. the Druid's ability to so easily survive and reposition.
• Celestial Shadow - Reduce its stealth and super speed from 3 seconds to 2 seconds. This is a significant reduction in the Druid's disengage and ability to reset a fight through healing while stealthed. The less stealth it has, the less time it has to heal and reset before once again being targeted.

I feel these two Druid specialization focused changes would be enough. If any veteran Ranger/Druid/Soulbeast players would like to give feedback/opinions, please do. It would be a good idea to get an insightful thread going on the topic.

Thank God someone with a clear head.

I am glad you are not the meathead that takes a toy hammer and say: "NURF ALL RANGERSSS"

They had a lot of the utilities and even the healing scale with CA nerfed WAAY back in HoT so hitting things like signet of stone and such is going to do nothing. For the most part their healing is not godly to the point they can heal absolutely everyone. They can't. It literally just the stealth and full Condi cleanse that's remains. Once they tweak it (NOT GUT IT) then the class will naturally fall in line like spellbreaker and Holo or any mostly balanced class like that.

You know I did also consider that maybe Signet Of Stone needs to go from 6s down to 4s though. But that mixed with the above two suggestions in the OP statement, I believe are the only 3 things that need to be reviewed. -> Druid Clarity/Celestial Shadow/Sig of Stone. Mainly DC and CS though.

I came to the conclusion that ranger simply does not possess the natural sustain of other professions and the profession is kept alive in competitive modes ( PvP/WvW ) by those traits alone, I do recognize their cheesiness BUT druid is effective because in the end it has got as much cheesy sustain as other relevant specs atm, sure the sustain of druid is cheese should be considered nerfable...but you have to nerf the sustain of others too , 'cause soulbeast at high levels simply can't compete with the sustain of other meta specs...it's simply not possible

Basically druid=ranger=viable...you delete one element and the all equation collapse ; soulbeast feel strong yes...but it can be easily outsustained by experienced players and you virtually have no ways to recover, you're a core ranger with more dps but the sustain is not that much better

I think the simplest solution is giving Druids more of an incentive to stay in CA, rather than entering, using 2, 3, then leaving. At the moment, all a Druid does is heal and stealth. If you take either of those away, it becomes significantly weaker, to the point where the specialization really doesn't accomplish much at all.

The problem is, we don't have any reason to stay in CA for extended periods of time. CA skills 1, 2, 4, and 5 could be reworked into more damaging/control abilities. Thus making it worthwhile (in certain situations) to remain in CA to apply pressure rather than having 4/5 skills heal in different ways.

Cultivated Synergy, Primal Echoes, Verdant Etching, Lingering Light, and Ancient Seeds are all essentially useless traits compared to their meta counterparts. These need to be reworked to have more of a direct, meaningful impact on combat in order to be worth taking over Druidic Clarity, Celestial Shadow, and Grace of the Land.

Also, Druidic Clarity's condition clear is pretty much the only thing that makes Druid viable in the current meta. It is quite literally the only way for us to survive the massive amount of conditions being applied constantly. Nerfing this would destroy Druid. Thus, in order to provide an alternative, Anet should introduce other ways for Druids to remove conditions.

My suggestions?Cultivated Synergy - Healing an ally cleanses 1 condition on you and your pet. 2 second internal cooldown.Primal Echoes - Reduces recharge of staff skills. Upgrades staff skills into more powerful versions.

• Solar Beam - Now applies burning on the 3rd pulse.
• Astral Wisp - Cleanses 1 condition from allies it passes through. Inflict 1 burning on enemies it passes through.
• Ancestral Grace - When you reach the target, cleanses 2 conditions from yourself and nearby allies.
• Vine Surge - Applies Lesser Ancient Seeds to targets hit.
• Sublime Conversion - Changes from a wall to a bubble.

Verdant Etching - Glyphs gain reduced recharge. Activating a Glyph removes 1 condition from you and your pet and casts Lesser Seed of Life. Glyphs gain additional recharge reduction for each ally or foe affected. (5% reduction per ally/foe affected)Lingering Light - Reduces the cooldown of Celestial Avatar by 5 seconds.Ancient Seeds - Revert the cooldown increase. 20 seconds is WAY too long and made the trait unusable.

only nerf to druid i think they should do is make signet of stone the same as endure pain for warrior in PvP, make it 2 sec and 30 sec cd or whatever it is then im happy

Here's the problem; Druid isn't overperforming as a whole.

It's one VERY SPECIFIC combination of traits and traitlines. Advocating for blanket nerfs to the Druid specializion is bad, because Druid itself isn't a traitline/specializion you can attach to any combination of traits with the result of people going "QQ OP."

If we're seriously not going to discuss changing anything on Core Ranger, then this conversation doesn't go anywhere logical, reasonable, or good for the balance of the game, because MM/Skirmishing/Druid builds aren't broken, overpowered, or imbalanced in any way, and in that sort of sense, Druid really shouldn't need to be touched either since in most builds, it's in a good place.

So once again, one very specific combination of traits and skills are "overpowered." The interaction between them, at a macro level because I'm tired of hearing people whine about reasonable suggestions, needs to be altered.

Short of coming up with a reasonable plan to reduce that interaction of traits, Druid would be better off just eating the "Celestial Avatar to 20 second cooldown" nerf I see people throwing around.

It might further push the overperforming build into it's apex predator role, and in doing so we may never see any Druid build diversity in PvP ever again, but at least it isn't a blanket nerf or a bad suggestion that forces Druid into obscurity.

@bluri.2653 said:only nerf to druid i think they should do is make signet of stone the same as endure pain for warrior in PvP, make it 2 sec and 30 sec cd or whatever it is then im happy

I can agree with this.

Druidic clarity should be a GM trait that competes with Grace of the land.

Full condition clear on 15 sec CD is too strong to stay at current level.

I think druid rewards too much for entering and leaving CA such that it doesn't encourage people to stay in it - which is bad considering it's the main mechanic.

I would say

• deplete the CA bar entirely regardless of what is left before exiting CA
• have a 6-second internal cooldown after entering CA before you can exit CA (just like holo)

@Exciton.8942 said:Druidic clarity should be a GM trait that competes with Grace of the land.

Full condition clear on 15 sec CD is too strong to stay at current level.

It won't compete with GotL...

Druidic Clarity is mandatory. It will be picked EVERY single time over the other gm traits.

Solid read. But what I think people are missing is that rugged growth basically pushed bunker druid to God tier and scales waaayyy to high with healing power.

As druid can maintain near perma protection, rugged growth heals you over 600 per second with protection, which also feeds into celestial form. (For comparison our old troll ungent did that) remember mmr warriors well this is even more Regen then that)

Remember how two metas ago a a good for warrior, /mes or theif could completly shut down a druid well that's cuase rugged growth was a completely different trait.

@DarkHamster.7908 said:I think druid rewards too much for entering and leaving CA such that it doesn't encourage people to stay in it - which is bad considering it's the main mechanic.

I would say

• deplete the CA bar entirely regardless of what is left before exiting CA
• have a 6-second internal cooldown after entering CA before you can exit CA (just like holo)

u can quit holo mode anytime by using tool kit or elixir S elixir gun or whatsoever :pensive:

me personally i think druid would be way better if u increase the CA cd a bit. its a free superspeed, stealth, healing, stun break 15 condi remove button. it should have a higher cd. its the reason druid can troll 1v3 at far for basically forever.

the stone signet change sind suggested seems good as well.

I'm really glad to see someone recognize the strength of DC and CS. However, I don't think cleansing 12 conditions over 6 seconds is going to help the issue much. That's still a lot of conditions to cleanse on a 15 second CD. DC can keep the stunbreak, but it needs to lose most, if not all, its cleansing. Perhaps improving the condition cleansing within CA would help incentivize players to stay in it longer. Druid does need some source of cleansing, but a full cleanse, and even a nearly full cleanse over 6 seconds, isn't going to help. If you want players to stay in CA longer, then you need to make the traits much weaker. You're CS suggestion is nice, but is the stealth necessary? Or what about the removal of superspeed but the stealth remains for 3 seconds?

DC and CS need strong nerfs, however, CA should be buffed in a way that compensates well. Lots of things could be done. #4 could cleanse every second. #2 could provide resistance, or protection or regeneration. The possibilities are endless when you nerf those two traits.

Disagree on pets. Smokescale and Bristleback, and maybe a few PoF pets are noticeably stronger than every other pet.

i would agree but druid has high mobility also, so once he decaps you, he can pretty much just chase after you and defend his own node that you are heading to, all while applying damage pressure from skill 1, and high damage from pets. I do not play a druid, but I have played them enough to know what too much looks like. I'm not saying take away druid's mobility, but if they are going to go for a bunker build, either trade off damage a lot, or a little, based on how said druid builds his traits and skill bar. As it stands, the current meta druid can kill any profession in a 1v1, while also bunkering, and that just shouldn't happen. Take, for example, the scrapper changes that recently occurred. They can now bunker properly, but as a specific bunker build, they can't output the damage like they could before. But this is a good trade off. Being way too good at multiple things all in one is just not healthy for any game. Now that same scrapper can trait to do more damage, but he will ultimately trade sustain for that extra damage, making him a bruiser now with less sustain than his bunker counterpart. As it stands, current meta druid has it all, no trait changes need, no trade offs, and that is what is making people frustrated, and desperate to see some changes on the druid side of things. I love the idea of a druid being able to 1v1, but they shouldn't be able to 1v1 as a bruiser AND a bunker at the same time.Again, though, I love what druid brings to the table, I find them to be a really interesting and wonderful spec. Just tone them down a bit without gutting them is all I ask, depending on build choice. (copied and pasted from another post)

Also to note, pet damage is very strong for what it should be, profession mechanic or not. Engineer's profession mechanic is not as strong as ranger's, without any specific trade offs. It also has high cds on most skills that come off of the toolbelt, along with mediocre damage. It's the same with other professions as well. Ranger is the only profession with a super strong profession mechanic across all specializations. Now, again, I am not saying to gut the ranger. Some toning down would be nice, though.I like a few posts ideas on some suggestions for this said toning down, as well as the OP's suggestions as well, but again i don't agree with everything the OP says. Though valid points are also made.

@Toron.4856 said:

@DarkHamster.7908 said:I think druid rewards too much for entering and leaving CA such that it doesn't encourage people to stay in it - which is bad considering it's the main mechanic.

I would say

• deplete the CA bar entirely regardless of what is left before exiting CA
• have a 6-second internal cooldown after entering CA before you can exit CA (just like holo)

You can use S (which no one would do just to exit forge early i assume) but you cant switch to other kits - it goes on 6sec cd whenever you enter holo i believe

@Toron.4856 said:

@DarkHamster.7908 said:I think druid rewards too much for entering and leaving CA such that it doesn't encourage people to stay in it - which is bad considering it's the main mechanic.

I would say

• deplete the CA bar entirely regardless of what is left before exiting CA
• have a 6-second internal cooldown after entering CA before you can exit CA (just like holo)

You can only exit Photon Forge by using elixir S, which makes you unable to use skills at all. Entering Photon Forge disables all the weapon kits.

Otherwise, the only things that aren’t fair are Full condi clear + 6 seconds of Signet of Stone.

@bluri.2653 said:only nerf to druid i think they should do is make signet of stone the same as endure pain for warrior in PvP, make it 2 sec and 30 sec cd or whatever it is then im happy

I agree this is probably the best change, but I’d also cut the stealth to 2s, keeping super speed at 3.

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@Toron.4856 said:

@DarkHamster.7908 said:I think druid rewards too much for entering and leaving CA such that it doesn't encourage people to stay in it - which is bad considering it's the main mechanic.

I would say

• deplete the CA bar entirely regardless of what is left before exiting CA
• have a 6-second internal cooldown after entering CA before you can exit CA (just like holo)

well u used to be able to quit holo mode with elixir gun some weeks ago..

maybe they changed it?

@Exedore.6320 said:Disagree on pets. Smokescale and Bristleback, and maybe a few PoF pets are noticeably stronger than every other pet.

Bristleback and Smokescale are not the problem. The only way they are killing you is if they stack 25 stacks of might and other boons first. Their base damage was nerfed a long time ago. And the only PoF pet that is good is Jacaranda, which again cannot kill anyone without significant boon ramp up. If you have a scourge or literally an class that is on top of the druid, their damage is kept in check. Again, that is not the issue of druid and that does not make druid strong.

Pay attention, someone had said it before, it is their traits that have incredible synergy.

@Toron.4856 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@Toron.4856 said:

@DarkHamster.7908 said:I think druid rewards too much for entering and leaving CA such that it doesn't encourage people to stay in it - which is bad considering it's the main mechanic.

I would say

• deplete the CA bar entirely regardless of what is left before exiting CA
• have a 6-second internal cooldown after entering CA before you can exit CA (just like holo)

All kits go on cool down when you enter PhotonForge.

@Lilyanna.9361 said:

@Exedore.6320 said:Disagree on pets. Smokescale and Bristleback, and maybe a few PoF pets are noticeably stronger than every other pet.

I almost forgot about pets gaining boons. Good call, I stand corrected.

@BeLZedaR.4790 said:

@bluri.2653 said:only nerf to druid i think they should do is make signet of stone the same as endure pain for warrior in PvP, make it 2 sec and 30 sec cd or whatever it is then im happy

I would like to see Glyphs actually be effective to warrant taking their trait for lower Cooldowns. Celestial Shadow wouldnt be as mandatory if the other traits were worth considering. They were supposed to be unique for being different between avatar and normal mode, but they just aren't worth using in any state. If they could be more impactful, then I imagine using them for support / utility in Avatar would make that state worth more than a stunbreak/condi-clear and reset button.