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  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    The only issue that I have found is in the few jumping puzzles where you're fighting with the camera but everything else felt completely reasonable. Jumping puzzles that require some degree of precision (nothing currently requires you to be pixel perfect) or those that require you to find the correct path are completely fine.

  • its clear the op is such a pro and seeks a real challenge. When you move into range like those mini games a window pops up. You get 3 choices. Normal {how the current state is} difficult { add a timer for bonus extra reward} hard {when you do not complete in time and or die your account is paused for 24 hours}. Does that work for you op?

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:
    A moderately well known fact about Nintendo is when Shigeru was making Super Mario 64 for the nintendo 64, he discovered making pinpoint accurate jumps within a 3D space is just something that does not work. At all. Making a jumping game in 3D requires a pretty high degree of forgiveness to make it fun, a certain understanding of the player to make "good enough" judgement for a jump. However, the fine fellows at Anet don't seem to have gotten the memo, and as such we have minuscule stalagmite platforms, catchy headbanging geometry in awkward places, and unclear directional cues.

    The pirate cave in Lions Arch immediately starts off with a *Guess the pixel perfect position you have to drop down into to even start the god kitten puzzle." There's no time to avoid obstacles if you get it wrong, and you can barely move in midair to begin with. You are then lead through a pitch black maze in which if you miss the rather unclear cue to walk through a wall and turn left at the end, guess what you'll be wandering through pitch blackness for as long as it takes you to realize you can use your minimap to navigate through without the help of the spirit in the first place. When you do finally get out of the maze, it is again, extremely unclear where to go, the answer is to spam jump your way up some rather badly textured geometry to a tunnel above and to your right.

    There's problems with pretty much every puzzle I've tried so far with absolutely no signs of learning from Anet throughout the years of releasing expansions. I would like to at very least like to see some clear directional cues with the puzzles released in PoF, with the path clearly laid out in what you're supposed to do. I get that from time to time you may want players to navigate some form of maze, but the fact the maze is there and the different possible paths the maze has needs to be clearly shown. Don't make people randomly jump off unrecoverable cliffs just because they think you might have hidden the correct path down there. If you want to make a jumping puzzle difficult, you'll want to outfox your players using clever tricks, not make them struggle to overcome core gameplay elements.

    Sorry you don't like jumping puzzles, I can understand that, but it doesn't mean they're bad. It means theyre not in your field of interest.

    I dunno where to place Jumping puzzles in the Gaming universe, but at least they are unique, as far as I know. And I enjoyed every single one of them. Doesn't mean everyone does of course, especially as I can navigate and explore those not as random cliffs and jumps better than some. (Definitely not the best but still good enough) and more than anything I can deal with falling to my death many many times before getting frustrated if I get at all frustrated.

    Dealing with failure or falling or even dying in GW2 jumping puzzles is a must.

    Griffonrook Run is a perfect example of that. You need/can to drop down by running or jumping off cliffs, where jumping off might kill you and running off doesn't, or take a slower path. Something you can only know if you failed first. If you can't handle that, then you will not have fun with GW2 JPs for alot of the time.

    I think you should realize my take is a little more nuanced than that. But this thread has gotten to the stage where most of the new comments are behind the point of discussion.

    I didnt see that post was over 2 years old. :(

    Also read your other posts now, which make a much clearer picture of what you mean. Your first post isnt that nuanced, so yeah...

    Anyway, I still think JPs in this game are simply of another caliber than your normal platforming game. Its a side activity that are fabricated with the limitations of this game's engine are imo clearly the Devs having fun with it. Lots of them arent as polished, but I have always looked past that as it never bothered me. Then again, trying to jump on weird geometry is something I still do ingame right now.

    the fact this thread was necroed from 2 years ago has no impact on the number of comments it has. My original point is that while I didnt say I disliked jumping puzzles (which I clarify later), I think that they could have been built better and more frictionlessly with the games core controls and visuals interface. To simply say 'oh its just another sort of caliber' is akin to baking a cake with eggshells as a main ingredient, using too little flour, and calling it innovation. It is not a new, interesting reinvention of a familiar concept. it is a familiar concept done carelessly. The fact that some people actually like eggshell cake too little flour has little to do with it.

    It's funny because literally the opposite can be said right back at you. So many people don't have a problem with these jumping puzzles along with its learning process and actually like them that the fact a few people -like you- dislike them is akin to the few people that argue the eggshell cake is better because they like it.
    You literally take your opinion about small part of mostly optional content and then claim that anyone that likes it is weird. Well... "No, u". :D

    Also there's a varying degree of difficulty levels among the JPs, so pick the ones you're comfortable with and leave those "too hard for you" for people that enjoy them, just like those people don't try to claim that easy jumping puzzles somehow should be redesigned to be much harder "because it's an eggshell cake".

    There's the tiny problem of ignoring textbook game design principles,

    Apparently the only "textbook game design principle" here is "whatever I prefer".
    I can't make the jump? Bad design! I don't enjoy this type of side-content? Bad design! Just... no.

    call it subjective, call it biased, whatever makes you feel better about your own opinion.

    I will call it that, because that's exactly what it is. And just like with "eggshell cake", because I guess that's your preferred way of posting:
    call it ignoring textbook game principles, call it bad design, whatever makes you feel better about your own opinion.

    Many of the old jumping puzzles make you fight the game rather than the puzzle.

    No, not really. Not "pretty much every" (like you initially wrote) and not "many". In fact, barely any are even "problematic", let alone somehow "making you fight the game" or working against your opening piece of trivia about "pinpoint accurate jumps not working in 3d environment".

    The only one I havent been able to complete is the draconis mons one and thats only because you have to do those 3 vine shots in a row.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:
    The only one I havent been able to complete is the draconis mons one and thats only because you have to do those 3 vine shots in a row.

    Can't you cheese that one with the Skyscale nowadays?

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    The only one I havent been able to complete is the draconis mons one and thats only because you have to do those 3 vine shots in a row.

    Can't you cheese that one with the Skyscale nowadays?

    No idea havent tried.

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:
    A moderately well known fact about Nintendo is when Shigeru was making Super Mario 64 for the nintendo 64, he discovered making pinpoint accurate jumps within a 3D space is just something that does not work. At all. Making a jumping game in 3D requires a pretty high degree of forgiveness to make it fun, a certain understanding of the player to make "good enough" judgement for a jump. However, the fine fellows at Anet don't seem to have gotten the memo, and as such we have minuscule stalagmite platforms, catchy headbanging geometry in awkward places, and unclear directional cues.

    The pirate cave in Lions Arch immediately starts off with a *Guess the pixel perfect position you have to drop down into to even start the god kitten puzzle." There's no time to avoid obstacles if you get it wrong, and you can barely move in midair to begin with. You are then lead through a pitch black maze in which if you miss the rather unclear cue to walk through a wall and turn left at the end, guess what you'll be wandering through pitch blackness for as long as it takes you to realize you can use your minimap to navigate through without the help of the spirit in the first place. When you do finally get out of the maze, it is again, extremely unclear where to go, the answer is to spam jump your way up some rather badly textured geometry to a tunnel above and to your right.

    There's problems with pretty much every puzzle I've tried so far with absolutely no signs of learning from Anet throughout the years of releasing expansions. I would like to at very least like to see some clear directional cues with the puzzles released in PoF, with the path clearly laid out in what you're supposed to do. I get that from time to time you may want players to navigate some form of maze, but the fact the maze is there and the different possible paths the maze has needs to be clearly shown. Don't make people randomly jump off unrecoverable cliffs just because they think you might have hidden the correct path down there. If you want to make a jumping puzzle difficult, you'll want to outfox your players using clever tricks, not make them struggle to overcome core gameplay elements.

    Sorry you don't like jumping puzzles, I can understand that, but it doesn't mean they're bad. It means theyre not in your field of interest.

    I dunno where to place Jumping puzzles in the Gaming universe, but at least they are unique, as far as I know. And I enjoyed every single one of them. Doesn't mean everyone does of course, especially as I can navigate and explore those not as random cliffs and jumps better than some. (Definitely not the best but still good enough) and more than anything I can deal with falling to my death many many times before getting frustrated if I get at all frustrated.

    Dealing with failure or falling or even dying in GW2 jumping puzzles is a must.

    Griffonrook Run is a perfect example of that. You need/can to drop down by running or jumping off cliffs, where jumping off might kill you and running off doesn't, or take a slower path. Something you can only know if you failed first. If you can't handle that, then you will not have fun with GW2 JPs for alot of the time.

    I think you should realize my take is a little more nuanced than that. But this thread has gotten to the stage where most of the new comments are behind the point of discussion.

    I didnt see that post was over 2 years old. :(

    Also read your other posts now, which make a much clearer picture of what you mean. Your first post isnt that nuanced, so yeah...

    Anyway, I still think JPs in this game are simply of another caliber than your normal platforming game. Its a side activity that are fabricated with the limitations of this game's engine are imo clearly the Devs having fun with it. Lots of them arent as polished, but I have always looked past that as it never bothered me. Then again, trying to jump on weird geometry is something I still do ingame right now.

    the fact this thread was necroed from 2 years ago has no impact on the number of comments it has. My original point is that while I didnt say I disliked jumping puzzles (which I clarify later), I think that they could have been built better and more frictionlessly with the games core controls and visuals interface. To simply say 'oh its just another sort of caliber' is akin to baking a cake with eggshells as a main ingredient, using too little flour, and calling it innovation. It is not a new, interesting reinvention of a familiar concept. it is a familiar concept done carelessly. The fact that some people actually like eggshell cake too little flour has little to do with it.

    It's funny because literally the opposite can be said right back at you. So many people don't have a problem with these jumping puzzles along with its learning process and actually like them that the fact a few people -like you- dislike them is akin to the few people that argue the eggshell cake is better because they like it.
    You literally take your opinion about small part of mostly optional content and then claim that anyone that likes it is weird. Well... "No, u". :D

    Also there's a varying degree of difficulty levels among the JPs, so pick the ones you're comfortable with and leave those "too hard for you" for people that enjoy them, just like those people don't try to claim that easy jumping puzzles somehow should be redesigned to be much harder "because it's an eggshell cake".

    There's the tiny problem of ignoring textbook game design principles,

    Apparently the only "textbook game design principle" here is "whatever I prefer".
    I can't make the jump? Bad design! I don't enjoy this type of side-content? Bad design! Just... no.

    call it subjective, call it biased, whatever makes you feel better about your own opinion.

    I will call it that, because that's exactly what it is. And just like with "eggshell cake", because I guess that's your preferred way of posting:
    call it ignoring textbook game principles, call it bad design, whatever makes you feel better about your own opinion.

    Many of the old jumping puzzles make you fight the game rather than the puzzle.

    No, not really. Not "pretty much every" (like you initially wrote) and not "many". In fact, barely any are even "problematic", let alone somehow "making you fight the game" or working against your opening piece of trivia about "pinpoint accurate jumps not working in 3d environment".

    Sorry but you're doing nothing except spit my words back at me. You can stop now. I've given examples of camera fighting, unclear cues, intentions not functioning or no longer functioning, and awkward geometry causing headbanging and sliding, often also causing aforementioned camera fighting.

    In any case this thread has served its purpose and should be left to die. The few jumping puzzles that have come since HoT have been a step up and that's all I could really ask for.

  • The Boz.2038The Boz.2038 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @Hesione.9412 said:
    For the love of the six, I wish the following were implemented in combination:
    1. remove the ability to glide in the JPs OR allow a different keybind for the glider
    2. add checkpoints with an automatic revive at the last checkpoint.

    Other players in other threads have already pointed out that those of longer ping means we tend to soar past the jump point because it is difficult to know when the server has registered our key press as a jump rather than glider. I have had numerous experiences of tapping my jump key, only to have it not register and see my avatar fall down. Then I get to that point again, hold the key down a little bit longer and watch my glider deploy and I soar past the jump platform.

    I've seen the "advice" of just tap the jump key again to get rid of the glider. If tapping the jump key worked in the first place the glider would never have deployed.

    All movement in GW2 is client-side. That's why there's no rubber banding for yourself, but you can sometimes see other players "fall" and teleport to not have fallen.

    Also, anyone defending any of the two Ring of Fire JPs is entirely and clearly mad. Those JPs are a blight.

  • Tyncale.1629Tyncale.1629 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    These days, jumping puzzles add to the social aspect of the game, now that we have Pink to portal us to the daily JP's. I feel there is little reason for social interaction in these days in modern MMO's unless you hole up in a Guild for Raids or something, and seeing Pink do their friendly Community service, with all the "ty's" and "awesome, thanks" in chat always warms my heart a little bit.

    Thank you Pink!

    Also leading the way/helping others is a thing players often do with a puzzle, if they are actually doing them. I find it is a pretty social feature.

  • Lucio.4190Lucio.4190 Member ✭✭✭

    A couple of words from Mukluk regarding jump puzzles:

  • Ahrya.3097Ahrya.3097 Member ✭✭

    I think the claims about the core mechanics being faulty are coming from a place of lack of practice (barring the high ping glider claims). Core jumping is thankfully all handled client side and is the one thing in this game living in australia doesn't turn into a frustration. It is the one thing I have been able to practice and get good at without hitting an impassable cap as a result of lag. I will admit, jumping in this game can be incredibly precise, but that also allows for a very high skill ceiling as well as a very low floor. Not a single official jumping puzzle or task in this game requires pixel perfection as has been claimed. I know this because there are unofficial jumping activities which do (or something very close to pixel perfection; it's literally called pixel jumping).

    If you still think Anet is making things too hard, be thankful they don't ask of you to do anything like the jump at 26 seconds here (not even pixel perfect):

    And especially be thankful they don't require pixel jumping (or wall jump w/e you prefer) like at 28 seconds here:

    I suggest you give them a few attempts to see the difference between this sort of stuff that a lot of practice enables, and what is actually required from an official jumping puzzle. GW2 is a skill based MMO, you can't just grind to get the best gear and be among the best. Entering a raid in all ascended or legendary, isn't going to guarantee it succeeds, not even close. All other facets of the game seem to be understood to require practice to even attempt and especially to be good at. Same goes for jumping and the various difficulties of jumping puzzle on offer. Consider Not So Secret or Chalice of Tears to be the raid of jumping puzzles, whilst something like Spelunker's Delve is like an open world event. I rarely see complaints for the easier JPs, I suspect because they are super accessible for nearly everyone. The harder ones however attract alot of calls for nerfing or simplifying because suddenly what is mostly considered side content requires practice to be achieveable with any consistancy or ease. It's disheartening because there are those of us who would actually want harder JPs, or better rewards for harder versions or a good performance in a JP time trial. Instead we kinda have to resort to sequence breaking or map breaking to get the challenge. However, I also wouldnt want to force upon people who struggle with this stuff and don't want to or can't get better at it; far harder Jumping content. So, I respectfully ask, please stop requesting it be taken away from those of us who are starved for it. Speedruns in SAB tribulation a few weeks a year is kinda all we have.

    Last thing I have to say is I used to suck at jumping and would struggle just to make it across the floating stones bridging the canyon thing at Loch Jezt waypoint in Metrica Province. Now, after lots and lots of practice, getting to the goggles at NSS is as easy as walking from A to B in the open world. Some of the speedrun routes for JPs and SAB however; not so much. The skill level exhibited by certain players goes so unbelieveably high, and that's awesome. So honestly, consider practice before claiming the game is broken; at least in this department.

    I will however concede that the gears at the top of Not So Secret on the way to the goggles are badly placed/ programmed and require one of a number of tricks to be able to do consistently (these should be fixed). I also request the glider be given an option to be toggled off or rebindable to its own key and not tied to the jump key.

  • Nazarick.9653Nazarick.9653 Member ✭✭
    edited January 10, 2021

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    Others are actually designed to be frustrating or having such weird jumps that most people can't do them without a guide. Or designed to make you explore the right route where you cant find the route without trial and error.

    Or even worse, when the guide shows a near-impossible way to do it when there's actually a simpler way to do it instead. (looking at you, Dark Reverie)

    @Lucio.4190 said:
    A couple of words from Mukluk regarding jump puzzles:

    It is an amazing gizmo, but it doesn't work all the time:

    It won't stop you going splat on intentional falls. (like the pirate cave one mentioned earlier)
    You can't fight mobs with it. (though most of those JP's are fairly easy)
    It won't work at all on JP's that involve carrying items with action skills. (which sadly keeps Draconis Mons out of reach)
    The 30-second CD naturally slows you down, but can time out sometimes if it's not clear where to go (eg. that mursaat token down the inescapable pit)
    And your own reflexes can sometimes get you, if you get too used to clicking 1 all the time.

  • Solvar.7953Solvar.7953 Member ✭✭✭

    What Anet should do is rebuild the JPs as races, with just a super long timer (way longer than it would take to do the JP). Advantages I see with this:

    • You can reset to the start of the race if you mess up. Some JPs are quite a ways away from a waypoint, so just getting back to the JP in case of death is annoying.
    • As evidenced by the winterdays race, there is logic in races to detect if a person is using a mount or not. So they could remove those no mount zones and just use that logic.
    • Races have gates that show up - for longer JPs, or those that are less obvious, this could be used to show the players where to go, instead of players needing to look at the wiki or use TACO. This would have the side effect of making ports harder (good? bad? depends on your point of view I guess).
  • So a discussion was necro'd recently about the jumping puzzles being poorly designed and it goes over 3 pages: thread. Personally I think they're fine and the vast majority of players just don't practice jumping which is also fine because it's not really a conventional mmo thing. Though it is sad to me when that continuously leads to claims that anet is asking for pixel perfection, and that the core mechanics are broken; then subsequently that jumping puzzles should be simplified or removed. I go into why none of that is the case in the original thread but this digresses from why this thread is being made. I want to come at the issue from the angle that the JPs are mostly ok but maybe require some modernisation and to highlight some suggestions i've seen as well as my own.

    1. First the no mount and no glide zones that are haphazardly plastered all over them should be removed. This prevents people from being annoyingly dismounted when just trying to explore the open world, and also allows for much easier recovery so that people can practice and explore the JPs to figure out which way to go and get better at tricky jumps. They are already unfit for purpose because they are easily bypassed. As a daily JP porter I see people bypassing the zones all the time.
    2. An NPC is at the begining of the JPs with a key/transformation for being able to access the final chest, the chest is obviously locked and interactables that are intended to be reached through doing the JP are non-interactable unless the the player has the key/transformation (goggles at NSS, gold badges at retrospective runaround, orbs at scavangers chasm).
    3. The player has 3 options, unrestricted, restricted, time trial:
      • Unrestricted places the no glide, no mount debuffs that currently get forced through zones on the player; but otherwise gives them full access to skills, interactions with other players, items like position rewinder etc (essentially allowing the JPs to be as they are now without the annoying zones). Having the key/transformation allows access to final chest and other interactables, and can be used for the daily JP / interactables / current crappy JP rewards while still allowing porters / helpers etc.
      • Restricted places both debuffs, unless its a JP where glider is intended, and gives players a set list of skills/traits (stability, stealth, swiftness, block etc... no targetted leaps, passive speed etc) whilst preventing interactions with other players and using items. This would ensure the JP is done as it was intended to be done when it was first introduced. A second tier added to the JP achievements for completing them in restricted (possible title for completing them all in restricted). Better rewards or a currency for a JP vendor like the beetle races have for skins, resources, minis, sellable vendor junk or title w/e (you decide what's fair compensation).
      • Time trial gives the same conditions as restricted but adds checkpoints that have to be passed through like the races in SAB (prevents speed runners pixel jumping and bypassing 80% of the JP). I figure either have tiered rewards (bronze, silver, gold) like adventures and beetle races and/or allow betting with payout every 3-4 hours (factors of 24) to the fastest 3-5 times. I think a betting thing could also be added to the beetle races and player/community made guild events (arena, custom JPs, custom beetle tracks etc) but that's a whole other thread. If betting is done, prevent winners from reentering for the day or week or some appropriate time frame inbetween. Again JP currency rewarded could also be considered and dependant on time trial performance.
    4. (optional) when possessing the key/transformation, dying allows the player to restart at the begining like in griffon rook run or spekk's lab. Maybe include checkpoints for the unresticted version like in spekk's lab.
    5. (optional) allow the player to choose to have a buff added to them that turns all other players / mounts into wisps/invisible like is done for the mad king clock tower. Prevents visual obfuscation from people just exploring /practicing the JP and possible trolls with skyscales parked in awkward spots.

    I think these changes would allow people to far more easily practice them without having to run back from a waypoint every time they fall. It retains their ability to be used in the dailies rotation whilst not removing the need to do the JP entirely and not putting porters out of work which I think is a cool emergent part of the game. It removes the ineffective and annoying zones. It opens up options for being more challenging/ engaging for the people that enjoy them and want more out of them.

    I understand many people would prefer development time being spent on raids or refreshing dungeons or reimplimenting shelved season 1 living world content but i'll leave those topics for people who have more interest in that. I figure I'll try come at the JPs from the perspective of someone who really enjoys them and as we are a few months out from SAB, there is probably development time being allocated to jumping related stuff soon anyway.

    If you have other good points to add i'll see if i can edit this post and include them below:

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2021

    Removing the no mount and no gliding basically removes the jumping puzzles from the game. I really don’t want them to do this because it isn’t a positive change.

    Whilst I admire the originality of some of your ideas, it is over complicating something needlessly. There are realistically only two things JPs could use to improve them

    • better rewards
    • More of them, designed as well as the core maps which seamlessly integrate them into the map as hidden content

    The problem with some jps is that they aren’t well designed. I’ve done Chalice of Tears a few times abd un comparison is just naff. It’s not the jumping itself, it’s just the mess of it and on top of that, it’s takes up a significant area of the map which could be used for better things.
    At least with the aether blade one in gendarren, draconis mons abd sirens landing, they are off out of the way.

    When PoF came along, the jp idea was almost abandoned when there was plenty of scope for little jps off to one side in Vabbi or the mountains.

    I’d rather see a focus on bringing the basic fun back and making them hidden again to discover, rather than adding too many gimmicks

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hidden JPs wouldn't stay hidden for very long.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Checkpoints, time trials, convenient respawn, challenge modes, better rewards. These all sound like things that could make JPs more fun.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ahrya.3097 said:
    If you have other good points to add i'll see if i can edit this post and include them below:

    Out of curiosity why do you feel it's a positive to allow one player to cheese another through the content?

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I always felt that JPs were additional, optional content that were introduced for something to do on the side. I'd prefer not to see additional resources put into them at the risk of degrading the quality of the game's main content. But that's me.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2021

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Hidden JPs wouldn't stay hidden for very long.

    Of course not, but JPs are more satisfying to me when they aren't basically "this way to the JP" and you stumble across it whilst exploring. Chalice of Tears is a classic example of going "hello I am a JP, come and solve me" whereas something like chaos crystal caverns is better (imo) because it is something you are going to find by exploring nooks and crannies (wiki aside)

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    I always felt that JPs were additional, optional content that were introduced for something to do on the side. I'd prefer not to see additional resources put into them at the risk of degrading the quality of the game's main content. But that's me.

    Everyone is going to have a different viewpoint on side content, JPs and so forth. However, the great strength of GW2 is that is has all these little optional bits in the first place. When we condense GW2 maps down to just main content, they are somewhat shallow and sparse and not very interesting to play in my own eyes. The best maps in the game for me are stuffed full of everything - JPs, meta, events, adventures, mini dungeons and so many other things. Even the perceived weaker maps are improved with these little additions.
    I would hate to discourage the devs from going back to filling out maps with side content because just one of those ideas wasn't something I was personally invested in.

    After all, it's these details, these extras and this variety which make the game a "living world" and an edge of doign something different over other MMOs )

    Having said that, I mostly imply we should continue making new ones (which is utilising resources already working on the maps anyway), rather than bolster existing ones with new stuff.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    I always felt that JPs were additional, optional content that were introduced for something to do on the side. I'd prefer not to see additional resources put into them at the risk of degrading the quality of the game's main content. But that's me.

    Follow that logic to its conclusion and you'd have a pretty generic MMO. While I initially hated JPs and they are certainly side content, they're also a very "GW2" sort of thing. One of many unusual things you encounter in this game that lend it that unique personality. I thought it was funny when I heard that in the original GW characters lacked the ability to jump. I imagine jump puzzles were the developer's way of making up for that!

  • Ahrya.3097Ahrya.3097 Member ✭✭
    edited January 11, 2021

    Regarding over complication:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Whilst I admire the originality of some of your ideas, it is over complicating something needlessly

    I dont think anything new is being done here except for the restricted and time trial modes I proposed. But these are also based on something that already has a version of it implemented in the game like we have seen with SAB races and beetle races which dont appear to be too compliacted for players. I expect that this would also minimise the amount of development time required.

    Regarding the JPs being hidden:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Hidden JPs wouldn't stay hidden for very long.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    I’d rather see a focus on bringing the basic fun back and making them hidden again to discover

    I feel as though the "** You Are Entering An Area Where Mounts Are Not Allowed. Turn Back Or Be Dismounted**" that pops up when you get close to JPs kinda acts as a giant flashing billboard for a JP being nearby already. These suggestions would remove that, and for those without mounts who wouldn't see that message; well its business as usual, they don't have the mounts to be easily stumbling across these usually hidden areas. I do agree with Randulf that the better designed ones are those that are more seemlessly integrated into hidden areas of the map. Although I also understand Anet wanting to mix it up and having more open JPs.

    Regarding poorly designed JPs that are difficult to know where to go:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    The problem with some jps is that they aren’t well designed. I’ve done Chalice of Tears a few times abd un comparison is just naff. It’s not the jumping itself, it’s just the
    mess of it...

    I think the time trial mode and its provision of checkpoints like the SAB race would act as a way to know where to go... these checkpoints could maybe also be optionally put in the unresticted mode.

    Regarding cheese of JPs:

    @mindcircus.1506
    Out of curiosity why do you feel it's a positive to allow one player to cheese another through the content?

    Were this a discussion being had in 2012 at the conception of the game, I'd probably be against it. However assisted cheesing of the content has been around since portals and has just gotten more prevalent with all the other mechanics added on top over time. I think at this point it is more or less an accepted and almost expected part of the GW2 community and taking it away would make many people quite angry. I am not suggesting anything that makes it more cheeseable than it already is, aside from maybe making it easier to practice. To actually get the achievements or rewards the JPs still need to be done at least in the way they currently exist. Then on top of that, I'm proposing modes that return some integrity to the JP achievements which require them to be done solo, without cheese and as they were originally intended to be done. However I strongly suggest the rewards for this remain JP related, and mastery points or the legendary collections are not shifted from the unrestricted mode to the restricted or time trial modes.

    Regarding the distribution of developer time, I already addressed that in the original post because I knew everyone on these forums have different priorities. I knew from lurking @kharmin.7683 among other were likely to comment too and that they are not a fan of JPs. I'm just trying to provide perspective from the opposite side of someone who really enjoys them. I have tried to make sure my suggestions would require very little development time by picking from other features that already exist in the game and applying them to JPs. Also SAB is coming and development time is bound to be allocated to jumping related stuff and this is how I feel is the best it could be done; obviously aside form world 3 in SAB.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    I always felt that JPs were additional, optional content that were introduced for something to do on the side. I'd prefer not to see additional resources put into them at the risk of degrading the quality of the game's main content. But that's me.

    Follow that logic to its conclusion and you'd have a pretty generic MMO. While I initially hated JPs and they are certainly side content, they're also a very "GW2" sort of thing. One of many unusual things you encounter in this game that lend it that unique personality. I thought it was funny when I heard that in the original GW characters lacked the ability to jump. I imagine jump puzzles were the developer's way of making up for that!

    Not sure it's following to any conclusion. I'm not advocating for removing JPs or even granting them less resources. I feel that the amount of attention given to JPs is enough and no additional resources beyond what is already allocated should be spent. But, again, that's me.

    @Ahrya.3097 said:
    I knew from lurking @kharmin.7683 among other were likely to comment too and that they are not a fan of JPs. I'm just trying to provide perspective from the opposite side of someone who really enjoys them.

    :) I'm glad that JPs are available to those players who enjoy them and that they are not required content. I have never (and probably will never?) advocate for removing them.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Everyone is going to have a different viewpoint on side content, JPs and so forth. However, the great strength of GW2 is that is has all these little optional bits in the first place. When we condense GW2 maps down to just main content, they are somewhat shallow and sparse and not very interesting to play in my own eyes. The best maps in the game for me are stuffed full of everything - JPs, meta, events, adventures, mini dungeons and so many other things. Even the perceived weaker maps are improved with these little additions.

    I don't want JPs removed or not to be included in future offerings. I feel as if some are misinterpreting my point.

    I would hate to discourage the devs from going back to filling out maps with side content because just one of those ideas wasn't something I was personally invested in.

    I don't feel that I am discouraging things like this. That is certainly not my intention. I'd just prefer these things to not become more prevalent at the cost of detracting from or degrading the main content.

    After all, it's these details, these extras and this variety which make the game a "living world" and an edge of doign something different over other MMOs )

    I completely agree. See above ;)

    Having said that, I mostly imply we should continue making new ones (which is utilising resources already working on the maps anyway), rather than bolster existing ones with new stuff.

    I have no argument against this as long as the resources allocated remain close to what they are now.

    Again, all of my points are my opinion and preference. Not trying to demand or change anything.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • DeanBB.4268DeanBB.4268 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There are currently over 50 jumping puzzles, and I believe they all reward AP's when first completed. Cumulatively, that's enough for a reward chest (plus or minus, not sure they all reward 10 AP). I wouldn't want to see them changed to require some sort of check point or really anything to make them more difficult. If "time trial mode" or somesuch were to be added, just have that be above and beyond the normal JP requirements.

    But really, this is Anet. When do they ever go back to change old things? Retreat! is not their motto, Charge! is! :)

    X__________________________
    (Signature Required)

  • Mungo Zen.9364Mungo Zen.9364 Member ✭✭✭

    In general, I really like JP. I have completed all JP as intended multiple times, most before mounts came to be a thing (but I keep going back for fun). My comments below are thinking of future JP, not changing existing ones.

    I am thinking of the Siren's Landing JP and Draconis Mons JP as being challenging JP that do have recall mechanics via checkpoints. These appear to be examples of Anet learning from prior JP like Ember Bay. However, those three JP have a higher challenge than most JP available before them and I would anticipate them being difficult for players regardless of the checkpoints; they require a certain level of skill to accomplish.

    While the suggestions the OP presented do have merit, the skill level of the player in using the terrain and character physics is where the focus should be. What is the difference between a player dying and running back at Not So Secret JP or them falling and resetting on the JP closer than a WP? They save time but they still have to repeat part or all of the JP. It does give them the opportunity to learn more about the JP and JP skill in general but I question if it is a learning tool or a crutch.

    The common complaints are JP are too hard, as OP pointed out "pixel perfect" is how hard some claim they are. What would these proposed changes do for changing the mentality of players trying the JP? A hard jump is a hard jump regardless. If I jump, fall and reset to the beginning of the puzzle or some arbitrary checkpoint, I still have to make that next jump and cannot proceed until I do.

    In short, I believe that the OP suggestions promote repeated learning attempts at a single JP, while they do not change the difficulty of the JP, and that I approve of. However, as the difficulty doesn't change, that means that there will be a portion of the player base asking for nerfs to JP to match their skill level.

    What is a way that the game could promote learning how to manipulate the physics of player and terrain, to increase player skill level in this area, and get better at the JP?

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ahrya.3097 said:

    Regarding cheese of JPs:

    @mindcircus.1506
    Out of curiosity why do you feel it's a positive to allow one player to cheese another through the content?

    Were this a discussion being had in 2012 at the conception of the game, I'd probably be against it. However assisted cheesing of the content has been around since portals and has just gotten more prevalent with all the other mechanics added on top over time. I think at this point it is more or less an accepted and almost expected part of the GW2 community and taking it away would make many people quite angry. I am not suggesting anything that makes it more cheeseable than it already is, aside from maybe making it easier to practice. To actually get the achievements or rewards the JPs still need to be done at least in the way they currently exist. Then on top of that, I'm proposing modes that return some integrity to the JP achievements which require them to be done solo, without cheese and as they were originally intended to be done. However I strongly suggest the rewards for this remain JP related, and mastery points or the legendary collections are not shifted from the unrestricted mode to the restricted or time trial modes.

    The Community getting upset about not being able to trivialize content is not a reason to stop them from trivializing it. Imagine if the developers has said "oh well we cannot possibly stop AB Multiloot now, people would get upset" (and many people did). This is. after all, a method of people getting rewards (JP chests, daily completion, achievements) that they are not earning. Your proposed changes would be a perfect place to close this issue out, however you stop short either because you think (rightfully) that it would make your suggestions unpopular or it would put your tip money from being a "a daily JP porter" at risk.
    The absolute first thing Anet would need to do to make this content legitimate and devote more resources to things like increased rewards, challenge modes, time trials, is close down the way players are exploiting mesmer portals to cheese each other through the content. Then they would need to put an end to the mount skips that exist for just about every JP.
    The fact that you have suggested a system that would address these issues but have chosen to muddy the waters with some sort of facility to keep skipping players to rewards and achievements they have not earned removes pretty much all value from your suggestion to me.
    Seems just like another self-interested suggestion in a forum filled with them.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Regarding adequacy of current rewards and difficulty

    @DeanBB.4268 said:

    There are currently over 50 jumping puzzles, and I believe they all reward AP's when first completed. Cumulatively, that's enough for a reward chest (plus or minus, not sure they all reward 10 AP). I wouldn't want to see them changed to require some sort of check point or really anything to make them more difficult. If "time trial mode" or somesuch were to be added, just have that be above and beyond the normal JP requirements.

    But really, this is Anet. When do they ever go back to change old things? Retreat! is not their motto, Charge! is! :)

    Not asking for them to be more difficult, asking for the option to do them as they were originally intended to be done for better rewards/ currency and the possibilty of time trials like the beetle races have; whilst also retaining the option to do them in their current state. All while removing the zones that have been brought up in other threads as disruptive to exploration. To me it seems anet tries to engage players in old content like JPs since daily JP is a thing as is daily activity. I think this would be a way of doing that outside of dailies and gives the JPs better repeatability, a bit more on par with other forgotten content like dungeons.



    Regarding promoting improvement of player skill? this is more of an @Mungo Zen.9364

    In general, I really like JP. I have completed all JP as intended multiple times, most before mounts came to be a thing (but I keep going back for fun). My comments below are thinking of future JP, not changing existing ones.

    I am thinking of the Siren's Landing JP and Draconis Mons JP as being challenging JP that do have recall mechanics via checkpoints. These appear to be examples of Anet learning from prior JP like Ember Bay. However, those three JP have a higher challenge than most JP available before them and I would anticipate them being difficult for players regardless of the checkpoints; they require a certain level of skill to accomplish.

    While the suggestions the OP presented do have merit, the skill level of the player in using the terrain and character physics is where the focus should be. What is the difference between a player dying and running back at Not So Secret JP or them falling and resetting on the JP closer than a WP? They save time but they still have to repeat part or all of the JP. It does give them the opportunity to learn more about the JP and JP skill in general but I question if it is a learning tool or a crutch.

    The common complaints are JP are too hard, as OP pointed out "pixel perfect" is how hard some claim they are. What would these proposed changes do for changing the mentality of players trying the JP? A hard jump is a hard jump regardless. If I jump, fall and reset to the beginning of the puzzle or some arbitrary checkpoint, I still have to make that next jump and cannot proceed until I do.

    In short, I believe that the OP suggestions promote repeated learning attempts at a single JP, while they do not change the difficulty of the JP, and that I approve of. However, as the difficulty doesn't change, that means that there will be a portion of the player base asking for nerfs to JP to match their skill level.

    What is a way that the game could promote learning how to manipulate the physics of player and terrain, to increase player skill level in this area, and get better at the JP?

    So the idea is fail quicker and it was brought up in the previous thread I addressed at the begining of this one. The best way for someone to get better at something is to practice the parts they find difficult. If there is a long arduous road in getting to those parts, the process of practice becomes frustrating and off putting. Why is a game like Bennett Foddy's Getting Over It so irritating and prone to provoking rage quitting? Because it exploits this by doing the complete opposite of enabling quicker failing. If you fail in that game at one part you are finding hard, you are likely to loose a huge amount of progress if not be put back at the start.
    In regards to JPs, I've seen it many times in custom Guild Hall JPs, where if someone falls at a spot; they jump on their skyscale and go right back to where they fell and reattempt it. If they fall in NSS, they might try 5 more times and then call it a day or a month or possibly not ever return to it. The question you ask at the end about promoting learning; well I think that is first tacked by removing the frustration from the process and I believe the changes I've proposed will allow people the crutches they might need to engage in what is currently for them inaccessible practice. Obviously this will not appease everyone, and there will still be people with the "too hard" mentality but if you have a perfect fix that satisfiess everyone, I'm all ears for it.



    Regarding Self Interest:

    The Community getting upset about not being able to trivialize content is not a reason to stop them from trivializing it. Imagine if the developers has said "oh well we cannot possibly stop AB Multiloot now, people would get upset" (and many people did). This is. after all, a method of people getting rewards (JP chests, daily completion, achievements) that they are not earning. Your proposed changes would be a perfect place to close this issue out, however you stop short either because you think (rightfully) that it would make your suggestions unpopular or it would put your tip money from being a "a daily JP porter" at risk.
    The absolute first thing Anet would need to do to make this content legitimate and devote more resources to things like increased rewards, challenge modes, time trials, is close down the way players are exploiting mesmer portals to cheese each other through the content. Then they would need to put an end to the mount skips that exist for just about every JP.
    The fact that you have suggested a system that would address these issues but have chosen to muddy the waters with some sort of facility to keep skipping players to rewards and achievements they have not earned removes pretty much all value from your suggestion to me.
    Seems just like another self-interested suggestion in a forum filled with them.

    So the amount of tip money porters get is miniscule in comparison to other activities in game. Personally I don't ask for tips, I say thankyou when I get them, and I return the excess of 1g back to the player on the rare occasion someone gives more. Probably 90% of people don't tip. I also only really bother porting daily when there is only 1 other doing it. So again about 90% of the time I am just hanging around at the end interacting with people and helping those who ask for assistance in learning how to do the JP the intended way. The other place I've been tipped is NSS where I try to checkpoint people up the JP, not port them to the end. I essentially mentor them on the way up and teach them how to do some of the more annoying jumps or ones that require tricks like the gears on the way to the goggles which are just straight up broken. Again I don't ask for tips and anything that's excessive gets mailed back. Unless they insist and they keep sending it.
    I could do without the tip money, it's really not an income I rely on and I don't much care for having stuff in this game. Played on and off since 2012 on 2 differenct accounts and never once had a legendary lol. I just don't care for that stuff; I like developing skills, exploring and interacting; that's where my fun comes from in this game. It's that interaction part that I see best displayed at daily JPs where people are just there to get their daily done and are thankful for the people who stick around to expediate that process. I don't think there is much more difficulty in other dailies like interact with a vista or mine nodes in your home instance or guild hall that interacting with a mesmer portal becomes such an outlier and egrigous offender. I don't think the current rewards for JPs are anything to celebrate over either which is probably why their exploitability hasn't been a top priority for being adderssed. The restricted and time trial modes would return the integrity that you want and I also want, but I am trying to be diplomatic about it and strike some compromise that is beneficial for everyone. These devisive topics tend to lead to people being all one way or the other and the thread quickly degrades into ever louder shouting at each other that each sides respective stance is the correct one. That is not what I want, as Obi-Wan said "only a sith deals in absolutes". I think you'll find I'm more on your side than you know, but shutting down porting would be removing an emergent part of the game that fosters player interaction and does very little in the way of excessively rewarding the player. Also, how would you propose dealing with everyone who has already recieved the achievements and rewards? How would you distinguish between who completed the puzzles legitimately and who relied on assistance? Would you propose a complete wipe of jumping puzzle related achievements and ask everyone to go do them again, or just say from this date forth they have to be done legitimately while everyone else who got in before then can get away with it? That's why im saying add a second tier, with possible title as a reward, which is earned by doing them in restricted.