Torment Changes: Performance?

What are you guys seeing so far? Benchmarks, other impressions?

I did a test of a few open world bosses I had taken videos of previously and if anything it looks like the torment fix may have actually lowered my damage slightly even though I can stack it to ridiculous levels (up to 60 stacks in the video). It seems clear that damage output was a great deal higher prior to the confusion nerf than it is after the torment fix. But what are you guys seeing so far?

The best I got so far is 34.5k with realistic buffs and small golem.

It's good. I still don't agree with the confusion changes and the new torment, but its definitely playable now.

Are there any links to the video axe / torment?

It turns out after the patch of February 9, the staff gives out less DPS?

@"Josa.5067" said:The best I got so far is 34.5k with realistic buffs and small golem.

It's good. I still don't agree with the confusion changes and the new torment, but its definitely playable now.

I mean durr, Torment base damage on non-moving targets is the exact same as Confusion used to be on non-attacking targets. Well done ANet, you threw the world into upheaval with this one. Everything is different now. As long as "everything" is the icon above the bosses' head.

/golfclap

What I don't get is: Why first gut Confusion for PvE use, then replace it entirely on the most important weapon there? Why even change it to begin with then? Same net result now, although you nerfed some other classes like Engi and Ranger in the process, so maybe that was the point.

I guess the confusion damage re-weighting was intended mostly for pvp and they thought pve mirage damage wouldn't be hurt as much as it was. If they could have done the pvp/pve split for shifting damage from dot to on skill use, they would have done it already. It's probably unpractical/impossible coding wise. No other condition has a functionality split between pvp/pve. Every pvp/pve split skill is split on differences in stack count and duration, no split on the way the condition actually works.

Torment replacing confusion is also only on axe. Every other confusion source on core mesmer/chrono and util+elite on mirage still remain. So if you want a confusion build for pvp, anything except axe should work. If you want a no-confusion condi build in pve, go axe. I agree that it kinda messes up the theme but at least condi axe is still ok/good in pve.

@Boulder.3589 said:I guess the confusion damage re-weighting was intended mostly for pvp and they thought pve mirage damage wouldn't be hurt as much as it was. If they could have done the pvp/pve split for shifting damage from dot to on skill use, they would have done it already. It's probably unpractical/impossible coding wise. No other condition has a functionality split between pvp/pve. Every pvp/pve split skill is split on differences in stack count and duration, no split on the way the condition actually works.

But... they had done the exact skill-split you mention before this change. That's where we came from, from a split Confusion between PvE/PvP. In PvE it was a bleed with a minor secondary damage component, in PvP it was a minor DoT with a strong on-skill component.

@Carighan.6758 said:

@Boulder.3589 said:I guess the confusion damage re-weighting was intended mostly for pvp and they thought pve mirage damage wouldn't be hurt as much as it was. If they could have done the pvp/pve split for shifting damage from dot to on skill use, they would have done it already. It's probably unpractical/impossible coding wise. No other condition has a functionality split between pvp/pve. Every pvp/pve split skill is split on differences in stack count and duration, no split on the way the condition actually works.

You're right. I didn't know that. Well this makes no sense then. I get where they're going with the pvp side of things but why do they want this new confusion weighting to exist in pve at all?

@Carighan.6758 said:

@Boulder.3589 said:I guess the confusion damage re-weighting was intended mostly for pvp and they thought pve mirage damage wouldn't be hurt as much as it was. If they could have done the pvp/pve split for shifting damage from dot to on skill use, they would have done it already. It's probably unpractical/impossible coding wise. No other condition has a functionality split between pvp/pve. Every pvp/pve split skill is split on differences in stack count and duration, no split on the way the condition actually works.

My guess is that their goal for mesmer pve is to make confusion damage viable even not as a bleed. They want a more active condi build. In the meantime, they've shifted axe damage to torment to sate the frankly rabid, complainers. Eventually, the goal is to probably move axe back (at which point the complainers will start up again, because they don't want an active damage build, they want to turn the mesmer into a boring dot application bot with a simple rotation).

@atlashugged.7642 said:

@Carighan.6758 said:

@Boulder.3589 said:I guess the confusion damage re-weighting was intended mostly for pvp and they thought pve mirage damage wouldn't be hurt as much as it was. If they could have done the pvp/pve split for shifting damage from dot to on skill use, they would have done it already. It's probably unpractical/impossible coding wise. No other condition has a functionality split between pvp/pve. Every pvp/pve split skill is split on differences in stack count and duration, no split on the way the condition actually works.

The people complaining the most atm are PvE players and I, as a PvP/WvW player, think they are completely justified in being a little ticked off at the change. Mobs just do not trigger the active confusion ticks enough to make it worth it. You either kill the mob before the tick ever takes place or it’ll tick once. On bosses it’ll only tick once or twice so having a passive tick in PvE is needed. This change should have just split the PvP and PvE not needing it across the board. But Anet probably should have either nerfed the duration/application rate or removed the passive tick not both.

@Jace al Thor.6745 said:The people complaining the most atm are PvE players and I, as a PvP/WvW player, think they are completely justified in being a little ticked off at the change. Mobs just do not trigger the active confusion ticks enough to make it worth it. You either kill the mob before the tick ever takes place or it’ll tick once. On bosses it’ll only tick once or twice so having a passive tick in PvE is needed. This change should have just split the PvP and PvE not needing it across the board. But Anet probably should have either nerfed the duration/application rate or removed the passive tick not both.

I don't view that complaint as relevant tbh. You seem to be talking about open world mobs in tyria, not raid bosses or fractals. Raid bosses and fractal bosses can trigger confusion enough for it to be viable. It's just a matter of numbers. I think the same could even go for non-core open world content. For open world tyria, you already have several viable options to get through the content (and frankly speaking, balancing all of PvE around open world tyria would be absurd. Should aegis application of all classes be drastically changed because you can just walk around most hitboxes during the extremely slow windup in open world tyria? Absolutely not.)

Even on Raid bosses the number would need to be so high that you would one shot most non bosses.

@atlashugged.7642 said:

@Carighan.6758 said:

@"Boulder.3589" said:I guess the confusion damage re-weighting was intended mostly for pvp and they thought pve mirage damage wouldn't be hurt as much as it was. If they could have done the pvp/pve split for shifting damage from dot to on skill use, they would have done it already. It's probably unpractical/impossible coding wise. No other condition has a functionality split between pvp/pve. Every pvp/pve split skill is split on differences in stack count and duration, no split on the way the condition actually works.

Please explain to me how this "active" damage is going to work in PvE. In PvP, you can change enemy behavior with confusion. Throw on enough stacks and a perceptive enemy will change what they're doing (cleanse or use fewer skills). How is that ever going to work in PvE?

As one of the "complainers", I have no problem with the concept of "active" damage on confusion other than the fact that nobody thus far - not you, not the devs, not anyone else - has demonstrated a concept for it that actually works in PvE. Enemy AI simply will not react as a player would to control conditions. If they could, chances are it would simply open a window for abusing stupid enemy AI. Need a break? Just pile on some confusion and watch the enemy stand there "avoiding damage"!

There's also the fact that axe was objectively far weaker than other weapons. But why bother with facts when you can use imagination, right? I imagine a version of confusion that works in PvE. Some day!

If mesmer got a trait that says something like "confusion you apply also applies quickness and weakness on the target," that would help make confusion work in pve without increasing monster dps too much, as long as someone doesnt boon rip or corrupt the quickness on the mob. Mostly for open world trash mobs without break bars. But it could have weird interactions and break the mob AI too.

@"Boulder.3589" said:If mesmer got a trait that says something like "confusion you apply also applies quickness and weakness on the target," that would help make confusion work in pve without increasing monster dps too much, as long as someone doesnt boon rip or corrupt the quickness on the mob. Mostly for open world trash mobs without break bars. But it could have weird interactions and break the mob AI too.

I have a feeling that they would be unable to implement that correctly without putting it in WvW and PvP which would be beyond broken with the durations of confusion in those game modes.

@Carighan.6758 said:

@Boulder.3589 said:I guess the confusion damage re-weighting was intended mostly for pvp and they thought pve mirage damage wouldn't be hurt as much as it was. If they could have done the pvp/pve split for shifting damage from dot to on skill use, they would have done it already. It's probably unpractical/impossible coding wise. No other condition has a functionality split between pvp/pve. Every pvp/pve split skill is split on differences in stack count and duration, no split on the way the condition actually works.

minor dot hitting for 5-7k in pvp and wvw LOL

If torment is what we have .... how about this.

A slightly altered version of the existing condi/viper setup with the addition of a scepter. Rotation would be mostly the same, but after you get your first axe rotation in, swap back to scepter for that full rotation to apply more torment when you have three illusions up, then shatter (Mind Wrack) to proc Maim the Disillusioned and repeat the rotation. Throw in crystal sands when off cooldown and use Jaunt for a damage filler.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAna7fnsICNoh1LDWoBMMjlVDDdLEUeCldgjTAw/A2AngA-jBCFQBuT/gDV+9u9HAwBBYBnAA/p+zveCAkUJIpAWUZF-e

@Carighan.6758 said:

@"Josa.5067" said:The best I got so far is 34.5k with realistic buffs and small golem.

It's good. I still don't agree with the confusion changes and the new torment, but its definitely playable now.

They probably didn't like the idea of a class having pretty high access to both confusion and torment. Punishing other players for moving, and using skills is a pretty disgusting combination. This gutting of confusion provided a pretty nice excuse to move some of our confusion sources to torment.

@"atlashugged.7642" said:

My guess is that their goal for mesmer pve is to make confusion damage viable even not as a bleed. They want a more active condi build. In the meantime, they've shifted axe damage to torment to sate the frankly rabid, complainers. Eventually, the goal is to probably move axe back (at which point the complainers will start up again, because they don't want an active damage build, they want to turn the mesmer into a boring dot application bot with a simple rotation).

How is waiting for a mob to finally attack "active"? (Thanks to these changes confusion is now the most passive, disconnected, at-the-mercy-of-the-game condition) Dot classes are not passive. They require constant pressure to keep their stacks up, and unless you can reach the cap, any hesitation is just as detrimental as hesitation from a direct damage class. They don't sit there after their first dots are applied and wait for the game to kill the mob for them. (At least not the clone build)

Active gameplay wise, DoT application is no different from power dps or any other build. It's not like you apply some DoTs and then go wait in a corner doing nothing while waiting for your DoTs to passively do the work for you. You aa when there is nothing better to use just like a power build, you activate skills like a power build, you do most actions like a power build. It's just that your damage is delayed instead of burst. There is possibly more skill interaction on condi builds. Eg. a scourge will try to make sure there is at least 5 different conditions on target before using feast, because it does less damage otherwise.

There is already some active reaction type skill mechanic in the game, like thief pistol 4. There are also damage on interrupt traits. These allow for active reaction play even in pve but the new confusion does nothing like that. It kinda works in Pvp because a lot of builds do burst damage in a short window and confusion can disrupt that burst, or they would have to take confusion damage if they go through with the burst chain under confusion but this does not work for Pve.

Edit: typo

@Josa.5067 said:The best I got so far is 34.5k with realistic buffs and small golem.

It's good. I still don't agree with the confusion changes and the new torment, but its definitely playable now.

What is your build?