Revert confusion changes?

I'll leave my opinion out of this, and ask the question to the masses.

Do you think the confusion changes should be reverted?

Definitely revert axe and then split confusion between pvp/wvw and pve.

Voted for easiest solution.

It would’ve made more sense for a full rework.Change all Confusion attacks to Torment.Add confusion as an Effect rather than a condition to some Hard CC abilities and soft CC abilities for a lower duration than the Hard. Which would thematically make sense for this “condition”. It’s damage can then be balanced independently of condition damage.

I voted other, because I think that confusion (alongside roughly each and every boon and condition) should be totally redone from scratch, to provide effective builds, flavoured mechanics, and satisfying gameplay.

@ThomasC.1056 said:I voted other, because I think that confusion (alongside roughly each and every boon and condition) should be totally redone from scratch, to provide effective builds, flavoured mechanics, and satisfying gameplay.

Why? Totally unnecessary and convoluted.

Just split it between PvE and PvP and make the PvE version work as per pre-patch.

I've lost any interest on using confusion as useful condition in my build. Obviusly i'm talking from a PVE perspective, the confusion's change was needed in PVP. Of course i've geared my mesmer/mirage at the start of PoF with viper stats and perplexity runes to stack confusion, but now there is no point to keep it like that. Gonna return to Chrono.

Im starting to doubt they have any idea what theyre doing right now...1) Make confusion compketely useless on pve2) Change 1 weapon of 1 class to make players less angry ? Change 1 was bad so lets just remove this condition from game. Take away signature condition from mesmer and give them something random. Wth???3) Lets just leave XX other skills and traits completely useless with useless condition.

I mean... What the.. ? This is just insane. Im so mad right now.

Reverting axe and splitting confusion so that it functions in PvE the way it did prior to the patch is the best solution. I can't rule out that the devs don't have some grand plan here, but the torment "fix" to axe suggests that they really didn't anticipate these issues at all. Better to cut your losses and start over on this one. Nobody wanted you to change confusion in PvE and the change itself obviously didn't work as intended or you wouldn't have had to start removing confusion from skills! Let's just try again, shall we?

High damage confusion should be based around an elite spec that allows some proper counter play for PvP related gameplay imo.

After five years I think it is pretty much clear that they possibly can't make confusion have high damage without making the condition OP in PvP.

Bleeding, torment and burning already have long lasting damages and mesmer has access to these conditions. It is not balanced to have confusion on top of that.

Time to move on.

@flog.3485 said:High damage confusion should be based around an elite spec that allows some proper counter play for PvP related gameplay imo.

After five years I think it is pretty much clear that they possibly can't make confusion have high damage without making the condition OP in PvP.

Bleeding, torment and burning already have long lasting damages and mesmer has access to these conditions. It is not balanced to have confusion on top of that.

Time to move on.

Great. Leave Confusion as it is for PvP. No one is arguing that it's not a good change in PvP.

And Confusion is already split. All that needs to happen is for the damage formulas to change. Revert Confusion in PvE, and everything is copacetic.It is, literally, that easy.

@Rauderi.8706 said:

@flog.3485 said:High damage confusion should be based around an elite spec that allows some proper counter play for PvP related gameplay imo.

After five years I think it is pretty much clear that they possibly can't make confusion have high damage without making the condition OP in PvP.

Bleeding, torment and burning already have long lasting damages and mesmer has access to these conditions. It is not balanced to have confusion on top of that.

Time to move on.

And how do you expect them to find the right damage formula if the split specifically targeted PvE in one side and SPvP/WvW for the other side ? There is no way they could find the right damage formula if one of those PvP mode shares the same stat as PvE.

@flog.3485 said:

@Rauderi.8706 said:

@flog.3485 said:High damage confusion should be based around an elite spec that allows some proper counter play for PvP related gameplay imo.

After five years I think it is pretty much clear that they possibly can't make confusion have high damage without making the condition OP in PvP.

Bleeding, torment and burning already have long lasting damages and mesmer has access to these conditions. It is not balanced to have confusion on top of that.

Time to move on.

I don't know where you get that belief, but they DID split PvE from PvP/WvW version in this patch by removing DoT from PvP/WvW and keep minor DoT on PvE to "allow people to be aware that confusion is applied without checking boon/condi bar" (according to ANet as later explained).

Or if you prefer to see patch note

Confusion: Heavily reweighted damage from this condition's base damage-over-time component to the damage-on-skill-use component. The condition-damage contribution has been removed from the damage-over-time component and redistributed into the damage-on-skill-use component. This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW.

They just showed that implementing different formula is not a difficult job. If we want to look at stats then check out all sorts of trait/skill coefficient splits between PvE and PvP/WvW. These formula splits are actually quite prevalent in game and reasonably easy to find out if you spend a little more time dig around wiki.

@NICENIKESHOE.7128 said:

@flog.3485 said:

@Rauderi.8706 said:

@flog.3485 said:High damage confusion should be based around an elite spec that allows some proper counter play for PvP related gameplay imo.

After five years I think it is pretty much clear that they possibly can't make confusion have high damage without making the condition OP in PvP.

Bleeding, torment and burning already have long lasting damages and mesmer has access to these conditions. It is not balanced to have confusion on top of that.

Time to move on.

Confusion: Heavily reweighted damage from this condition's base damage-over-time component to the damage-on-skill-use component. The condition-damage contribution has been removed from the damage-over-time component and redistributed into the damage-on-skill-use component. This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW.

I see, sorry for the confusion.....I guess. I thought they completely removed the damage over-time component of confusion and made it hit harder in PvE but less in PvP/WvW.

@flog.3485 said:

@Rauderi.8706 said:

@flog.3485 said:High damage confusion should be based around an elite spec that allows some proper counter play for PvP related gameplay imo.

After five years I think it is pretty much clear that they possibly can't make confusion have high damage without making the condition OP in PvP.

Bleeding, torment and burning already have long lasting damages and mesmer has access to these conditions. It is not balanced to have confusion on top of that.

Time to move on.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@flog.3485 said:

@Rauderi.8706 said:

@flog.3485 said:High damage confusion should be based around an elite spec that allows some proper counter play for PvP related gameplay imo.

After five years I think it is pretty much clear that they possibly can't make confusion have high damage without making the condition OP in PvP.

Bleeding, torment and burning already have long lasting damages and mesmer has access to these conditions. It is not balanced to have confusion on top of that.

Time to move on.

@Razor.6392 said:Mesmer Entitlement™It also negatively affects core condi engi, you know.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Razor.6392 said:Mesmer Entitlement™It also negatively affects core condi engi, you know.

Pry-bar is a non-factor in both pve and pvp. Is wvw where you use it?

@Razor.6392 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Razor.6392 said:Mesmer Entitlement™It also negatively affects core condi engi, you know.

Yeah, static shot and concussion bomb do not exist now, do they.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Razor.6392 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Razor.6392 said:Mesmer Entitlement™It also negatively affects core condi engi, you know.

Sorry, forgot those skills were a thing lol.

My mirage is stronger after the changes and a few build tweaks. I'm good with them

I would be happy if they just put confusion back on axe 3. Leave the ambush as torment if they don't want excessive confusion stacking.

But axe 3 is a burst skill which before this change was and should be burst into denial. They want confusion to be a burst application denial condition so axe 3 out if every skill I can think of should have this to support that gameplay.

It would also then be more rewarding to land axe 3, rather than right now you just get more torment on top of torment already there...

The idea being if you land axe 3 it challenges the opponent to react in the right way - usually after eating a burst players will need to use a skill to recover in some way - if axe 3 was a confusion burst as before it forces the opponent to think - do they wait out the short duration burst confusion while being at risk with lower health? Do they try to use skills to recover but eat confusion ticks? Do they use cleanses now to allow free skill use but be at risk of sustained torment/bleed/etc later?

For this reason I believe axe 3 (axes of symmetry) should be reverted to burst confusion application, if no other changes are made.

@Curunen.8729 said:I would be happy if they just put confusion back on axe 3. Leave the ambush as torment if they don't want excessive confusion stacking.

But axe 3 is a burst skill which before this change was and should be burst into denial. They want confusion to be a burst application denial condition so axe 3 out if every skill I can think of should have this to support that gameplay.

It would also then be more rewarding to land axe 3, rather than right now you just get more torment on top of torment already there...

The idea being if you land axe 3 it challenges the opponent to react in the right way - usually after eating a burst players will need to use a skill to recover in some way - if axe 3 was a confusion burst as before it forces the opponent to think - do they wait out the short duration burst confusion while being at risk with lower health? Do they try to use skills to recover but eat confusion ticks? Do they use cleanses now to allow free skill use but be at risk of sustained torment/bleed/etc later?

For this reason I believe axe 3 (axes of symmetry) should be reverted to burst confusion application, if no other changes are made.

Except PvE opponents don't alter their behavior in response to confusion. So how can you possibly use it that way in PvE? The simple answer is that you can't and short of designing much better AI across the board, there is no way around that. None. Please feel free to explain how you expect ANet to work around this issue. I really can't think of anything myself.

@Haleydawn.3764 said:Voted for easiest solution.

It would’ve made more sense for a full rework.Change all Confusion attacks to Torment.Add confusion as an Effect rather than a condition to some Hard CC abilities and soft CC abilities for a lower duration than the Hard. Which would thematically make sense for this “condition”. It’s damage can then be balanced independently of condition damage.

Actually it's not so easy as you think. They can split numbers, but not actual functionality. They can't have the condition scaling on the passive damage in PvE and on the active damage in pvp/wvw because limitations in the game engine makes this actually impossible without actually making two completely separate conditions in the game IDs that are named the same thing, which would actually create more problems than it solves. They can only change the numbers of HOW MUCH the condition scales in one mode or another. The easiest solution is to have it tick one condition in one game mode and another in other game modes.

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I would be happy if they just put confusion back on axe 3. Leave the ambush as torment if they don't want excessive confusion stacking.

But axe 3 is a burst skill which before this change was and should be burst into denial. They want confusion to be a burst application denial condition so axe 3 out if every skill I can think of should have this to support that gameplay.

It would also then be more rewarding to land axe 3, rather than right now you just get more torment on top of torment already there...

The idea being if you land axe 3 it challenges the opponent to react in the right way - usually after eating a burst players will need to use a skill to recover in some way - if axe 3 was a confusion burst as before it forces the opponent to think - do they wait out the short duration burst confusion while being at risk with lower health? Do they try to use skills to recover but eat confusion ticks? Do they use cleanses now to allow free skill use but be at risk of sustained torment/bleed/etc later?

For this reason I believe axe 3 (axes of symmetry) should be reverted to burst confusion application, if no other changes are made.

My selfish primary instinct is to say I don't care about instanced pve with the dps arms race. But that opinion isn't good for the game.

However given confusion still exists on other skills/traits it needs to be made functional in instanced pve or better to delete it from the game. Therefore I do think for pve only confusion should be restored to regular DoT plus damage on tick, so having it on a skill like axe 3 won't be detrimental to any dps rotations they use. Keep the new confusion for pvp/wvw only.

So yes, confusion will need to be properly split to support this.

@Curunen.8729 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I would be happy if they just put confusion back on axe 3. Leave the ambush as torment if they don't want excessive confusion stacking.

But axe 3 is a burst skill which before this change was and should be burst into denial. They want confusion to be a burst application denial condition so axe 3 out if every skill I can think of should have this to support that gameplay.

It would also then be more rewarding to land axe 3, rather than right now you just get more torment on top of torment already there...

The idea being if you land axe 3 it challenges the opponent to react in the right way - usually after eating a burst players will need to use a skill to recover in some way - if axe 3 was a confusion burst as before it forces the opponent to think - do they wait out the short duration burst confusion while being at risk with lower health? Do they try to use skills to recover but eat confusion ticks? Do they use cleanses now to allow free skill use but be at risk of sustained torment/bleed/etc later?

For this reason I believe axe 3 (axes of symmetry) should be reverted to burst confusion application, if no other changes are made.

Just gonna leave this here.

@Sojourner.4621 said:

Actually it's not so easy as you think. They can split numbers, but not actual functionality. They can't have the condition scaling on the passive damage in PvE and on the active damage in pvp/wvw because limitations in the game engine makes this actually impossible without actually making two completely separate conditions in the game IDs that are named the same thing, which would actually create more problems than it solves. They can only change the numbers of HOW MUCH the condition scales in one mode or another. The easiest solution is to have it tick one condition in one game mode and another in other game modes.