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Some of my thoughts and feelings.


Lily.1935

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This post is going to be a bit of a rant as my optimism for gw2 has been stripped bare at this point and my issues with the necromancer and it's treatment by the devs is likely not going to change. So I'm making this post mostly for my own benefit.

The changes to the skill activation on shade abilities is jarring. It pulls me out of the flow of combat and makes me feel like I'm lagging behind what I should be doing. This is a problem because shade skills don't have much of a kick to them. And for our fear skill this absolutely should not have a ramp time. This makes gameplay with the scourge feel unpleasant. Since before the skills didn't have a kick to them still but you could chain them together to get greater effect. Now that becomes much more difficult to do and since they haven't been given the kick they need to justify the change we are in a situation were we have a low powered, difficult skill to use with major costs and low reward. This feels like I'm being punished for playing scourge.

I fully understand that this wasn't your intention with the patch. The scourge wasn't fun to play against so you nerfed us. My disagreement with that sort of mentality aside, the way I feel about this change is that we as necro mains are being punished for using the tools given to us by you. I understand that wasn't your intention. I'm fully aware that you aren't looking to punish entire sections of you player base for doing nothing wrong but that is exactly how it feels to us.

Another issue being that we in the PvE community have been shot in the cross fire of this decision and we are actively behind in this game mode. There was no attempt to make sure we didn't get negatively impacted by this change and for foresight for what this will mean for us.

I've considered just stripping my necro of all her equipment and handing it off to a profession I feel you actually care about. Like Mesmer and just cutting my losses. But I don't want to do that. I don't want to admit that the necromancer is a lost cause. I want the devs to be as loving and passionate about the necromancer as the community is. And I feel they are not. I am almost certain they are not. And this shows in the treatment of the profession over the years. Anet looks to the next elite spec with no eyes to the present conflicts of design in the profession. No sight on just how poor of a state the necromancer is in.

Me and countless others have made post after post after post about just how bad the situation is and I even mentioned that if the scourge was propping up an otherwise bad profession and that a few nerfs to the scourge would break it and not in an op way but an underpowered way. And here we are. First nerf took us out of meta in pve and now we are in a situation where we both under preform and are not enjoyable to play. The one factor keeping players using scourge, joy, is now gone. And I'm sorry if this sounds harsh. But I play necromancer because it was enjoyable even if it wasn't good. Well, the joy is gone.

Look. Arena net. We need you to care about the necromancer as much as we do. We need you to fight for us and be as passionate and adamant as we are. We need you to have the desire to give us the best profession you can and not take the easy route to the problem. Because this is were we are now. We've lost long term voices for necromancer in our community. The necromancer is a meme. We are actively seen as a joke. And I and the rest of us HATE it. It almost feels like "well one of the professions needs to be the worst so it would be easier to just make sure that it's always the necromancer." The community interprets your decision making with the necromancer as incompetence or as malicious.

But I have my own theory. It's corporate. If a decision looks lazy, malicious or lacking foresight 9 times out of 10 it's none of those. It's corporate. You see my theory is that the devs are fully aware of the problems with the necromancer. That they know full well that the necromancer is in a really bad position. It's just not cost effective to fix it. Changing numbers or radius or adding a minor new animation is all fine. But the necromancer needs to have a complete redesign. And well... That is time and money arena net could be using on something else that sells more gems. Fixing the necromancer isn't cost effective so arena net is putting it off and likely will never do it if they don't have to because it's just not in their bottom line. It's expensive to redesign a profession. You need to pay for the man power and possibly artists to capture new animations. I get it. You're a business. GW2 isn't a passion project for your investors. It's just a cash cow. And justifying a major and expensive change that would make the players happy but not increase profit is not something you're inclined to do. Doesn't matter how much the devs might want to do it they don't work for free.

I mentioned in another post that the necromancer was only a drop in the bucket as to why I haven't been playing lately. Well, this is why. The belief that I held in that arena net was a player first profit second company is dead. GW2 might have been at one point a passion project for them. But this is very clearly not the case anymore. With the pushing of fractals while never visiting dungeons again and lying about it saying its "for the players to bring you the best content", the pushing of outfits on the gem store and creating weapons and armor that looks better than drops for the gem store. The loot boxes. The refusal to fix the necromancer or make the revenant on par with the number of skills and weapons as every other profession and it's overall half design. The unfinished legendary weapons that are still not done, the abandonment of underwater content. I can go on. All these decisions are not made by the devs of the game but detached corporate overlords who prioritize profit over players. Excuse me if I sound a bit rude. It isn't my intention. This is how I feel and how I've been feeling about the game as a whole.

The necromancer just culminates many of my frustrations and every time I log in I'm reminded of everything I despise about about the gaming industry. And I can't see the vision of GW I fell in love with in the first game. Because GW1 was a project of passion and love. GW2? There are passionate people on their team. And I have a lot of respect for them. I have no love for the investors.

Why am I not playing GW2 much anymore? Because they will let parts of the game stagnate and die while milking all the money they can from us. If the devs want to prove me wrong and fix all the problems in spite of the costs to their bottom line great! I'll embrace it with open arms. But I won't hold my breath.

Anet. Show me you care. Fix the necromancer. Finish the revenant. Revamp the dungeons. Do something that isn't profit first focused but player first focused. This is what I ask. I hole you have a lovely day. I'll be around.

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what if

necromancers already doing the job they were invented for?

maybe numbers speak a different language?

we simply dont know. nobody ever promised an environment in which every profession is equally desired. (afaik... can be wrong)necro is already mandatory in wvw group fightsnecro is very good to start gw2 with, because it is so super forgiving and can be played extremely passivemany people like the necro themeso maybe necro already hit a desire-threshold and promoting any further balance would promote the next "profession x only" era.

the very least somebody in the developing team could do, is to tell us some facts... what their vision of the game/necro is. it would certainly create a big mess in the forums with people disagreeing. but i doubt it would be any worse than the gazillion moaning threads between each of the single patches/metas/expansions.

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@"Aetatis.5418" said:what if

necromancers already doing the job they were invented for?

maybe numbers speak a different language?

we simply dont know. nobody ever promised an environment in which every profession is equally desired. (afaik... can be wrong)necro is already mandatory in wvw group fightsnecro is very good to start gw2 with, because it is so super forgiving and can be played extremely passivemany people like the necro themeso maybe necro already hit a desire-threshold and promoting any further balance would promote the next "profession x only" era.

the very least somebody in the developing team could do, is to tell us some facts... what their vision of the game/necro is. it would certainly create a big mess in the forums with people disagreeing. but i doubt it would be any worse than the gazillion moaning threads between each of the single patches/metas/expansions.

Broken in one game mode, almost useless in another. This is a strong sign that the necromancer needs a complete redesign.

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I greatly enjoy your posts, but am saddened to see the message brought with you this time around. Regardless of how much I agree with your statements on apparent corporate policy and its impact on the game (also the reason I've taken an extended break), I feel it dilutes your message regarding the need to revisit Necromancer design philosophy.

Not too long ago you lead a discussion on the risk/reward balance of Necromancer and how the base design undercuts the profession's theme, mechanics, and potential. This was incredibly inciteful and impactful. I think that message carried with it more gravitas and gave greater pause to listen and consider.

I would be overjoyed to see that conversation continued, but I understand how taxing this can be when it feels like you are having mostly a one sided conversation. If you need a break to refresh and refocus, please do so. Losing your voice as advocate for change would be far too harsh a price to pay.

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Lily, I completely agree with the fact Necromancer is broken but I'm not sure I believe it is solely a cost issue and I say that only because a complete rework of Mesmer just happened. I truly think that there is some bias at Anet regarding certain classes and it shows clearly when you look at the history of the Elementalist and Mesmer. Did Weaver / Ele truly need another 45k dps build when so many other classes can't muster enough damage to maintain relevance in may parts of the game? These are, to me very clear indications that certain classes are far more important to this balance team than others. I am not saying that corporate greed doesn't play a factor in this because it is a business I feel that the problem lies much deeper than that. I believe it has become clear that this team needs new blood, some new eyes because they all seem to have tunnel vision. Heck if you go back to the launch of PoF the devs introduced the Scourge and clearly stated they thought if they gave Power Reaper even a little more damage it would upset the balance. How is that even possible when all you need to do is go to any build site and look at the numbers being generated by all the classes, not one power build is amongst them nor has been for more than weeks at a time.

This team is lost, management is ignoring the damage being done to the game because of the corporate success and the current earnings report clearly bares that out. Yes there is corporate greed but it is not interfering with the resources to fix things, the team responsible is not being scrutinized because the money is rolling in again. Someone higher up needs to go to Snowcrows and look at the real numbers, that will open somebodies eyes. I am not saying outright that the developers are all conscious of favoring certain classes, I'm saying they are stuck in a loop and nobody is challenging that because cash is king right now. Any good manager knows that such shortsightedness is never a healthy way of ensuring long time financial success because their customer base will begin to recognize it and pull back their wallets.

All we can do is hope that there is somebody there that really wants the game to remain successful as long as possible and has a better understanding of the bigger picture when it comes to making all areas of the game enjoyable. Play the way you want has clearly become a thing of the past when it comes to classes in GW2.

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That was well written, Lily.

The problem with Necromancer is that it was designed to be a debuffer in a game where debuffing in PvE has little value. That, alone, makes the profession impossible to balance. The fact that any profession can perform the same function but instead focuses most effort in build on dps or other types of support is telling.

A complete redesign is required. Reaper and Scourge are evidence of limited effort toward that goal but still preserve core skills and traits. Core Necromancer and all of its skills, traits, and special mechanics require a vast rework to eliminate both the heavy debuffing focus and shroud mechanic.

To start, I would create a major split between game modes for all Necromancer builds and balance them separately until a full profession rework is complete.

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I feel like its one of the most unique professions in the game. Ive played all of them and none of them draw me back like necromancer does. Something about it just keeps me attached but I do feel like it lacks compared to other professions. I dislike scourge because of its play style its too different for why i like necromancer. I tried scourge for a few days and it never put a smile on my face.

Lilly I feel like you have summed this up pretty clearly and I never considered that it might be a profit choice that keeps arenanet from fixing things like the necromancer. Its sad to say it but you are probably right about this and as the game ages chances of things being changed for professions like necromancer or rev. become less likely.

While i do feel like there are somethings they could still do that wouldn't be cost crazy like fixing a few core shroud skills, changing undesired traits (without simply just adding a number increase) They done this for engi and mesmer in the previous patch. It is what it is.

All i can say is im glad scourge did not wet my taste as it has done for most of the community because I would hate to feel how you feel. Then again I kinda felt that way when reaper got gutted a few times in a row.

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Ahh this sums up the feelings of the all necro enthusiast.. I am new to the forum but 1 +year as necro main (regular t4 fractal runner) and really like the class concept. Upon seeing the direction of these past balance patches and how it gives more harm than benefit to overall playing experience, I would love to put a lot of thought into improving whichever aspects that requires one. Turns out the call for rework, extensive suggestion has been a lot here already since months (or years?) ago with yet any significant change has been implemented. Sad time but i will persevere :/ .

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Thank you for the post lilly. I also felt the same way. After seeing the balance patch and seeing all nerfs on the necro, I just couldn't bring myself to play the game anymore. Necro was the class I started in, it was the class I came back to. Year after year, all I can remember of each balance patch was asking why and a feeling of disappointment. At this point, I may as well advocate for a rework of necro far beyond the levels that mesmer got, or a complete divorce between pvp/pve. I see no other way for this class, or any of its future epecs, to move forward in a meaningful way, one that won't just get nerfed to the ground 2 weeks after release or sooner.

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Hey welcome to my camp. Used to be like you, happy and optimistic for the necro, waiting for every balance patch like a child on Christmas morning! Then the reality set in and I just couldn’t hope anymore and now I don’t play much at all.

ANET are too hung up on their vision for necromancer, despite the fact that their game for the longest time went directly against it, support via debuffs. It’s better than it used to be but man does it have a ways to go, add in the fact they based a fair amount of profession defenses around boons and that was a recipe for disaster when r came to scourge.

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@Anchoku.8142 said:That was well written, Lily.

The problem with Necromancer is that it was designed to be a debuffer in a game where debuffing in PvE has little value. That, alone, makes the profession impossible to balance. The fact that any profession can perform the same function but instead focuses most effort in build on dps or other types of support is telling.

A complete redesign is required. Reaper and Scourge are evidence of limited effort toward that goal but still preserve core skills and traits. Core Necromancer and all of its skills, traits, and special mechanics require a vast rework to eliminate both the heavy debuffing focus and shroud mechanic.

To start, I would create a major split between game modes for all Necromancer builds and balance them separately until a full profession rework is complete.

I disagree that the debuffing aspect of necromancer is the problem with its design. I've mentioned for years that the problem is shroud. And shroud needs a complete redesign or to be replaced entirely while all the skills need the same. What's needed for the necromancer isn't a medium change like the mesmer just got, but a major one. More than 90% of the necromancers skills need to be looked at and changed.

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@Lily.1935 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:That was well written, Lily.

The problem with Necromancer is that it was designed to be a debuffer in a game where debuffing in PvE has little value. That, alone, makes the profession impossible to balance. The fact that any profession can perform the same function but instead focuses most effort in build on dps or other types of support is telling.

A complete redesign is required. Reaper and Scourge are evidence of limited effort toward that goal but still preserve core skills and traits. Core Necromancer and all of its skills, traits, and special mechanics require a vast rework to eliminate both the heavy debuffing focus and shroud mechanic.

To start, I would create a major split between game modes for all Necromancer builds and balance them separately until a full profession rework is complete.

I disagree that the debuffing aspect of necromancer is the problem with its design. I've mentioned for years that the problem is shroud. And shroud needs a complete redesign or to be replaced entirely while all the skills need the same. What's needed for the necromancer isn't a medium change like the mesmer just got, but a major one. More than 90% of the necromancers skills need to be looked at and changed.

Yeah... shroud is the issue.

I still think that moving the defensive aspect of the shroud onto the spectral skills would be enough to make the necromancer's balance easier to do.

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@Lily.1935 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:That was well written, Lily.

The problem with Necromancer is that it was designed to be a debuffer in a game where debuffing in PvE has little value. That, alone, makes the profession impossible to balance. The fact that any profession can perform the same function but instead focuses most effort in build on dps or other types of support is telling.

A complete redesign is required. Reaper and Scourge are evidence of limited effort toward that goal but still preserve core skills and traits. Core Necromancer and all of its skills, traits, and special mechanics require a vast rework to eliminate both the heavy debuffing focus and shroud mechanic.

To start, I would create a major split between game modes for all Necromancer builds and balance them separately until a full profession rework is complete.

I disagree that the debuffing aspect of necromancer is the problem with its design. I've mentioned for years that the problem is shroud. And shroud needs a complete redesign or to be replaced entirely while all the skills need the same. What's needed for the necromancer isn't a medium change like the mesmer just got, but a major one. More than 90% of the necromancers skills need to be looked at and changed.

Well, the debuffing aspect is a design problem as long as debuffing is meaningless in the biggest area of the game (PvE)

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@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:That was well written, Lily.

The problem with Necromancer is that it was designed to be a debuffer in a game where debuffing in PvE has little value. That, alone, makes the profession impossible to balance. The fact that any profession can perform the same function but instead focuses most effort in build on dps or other types of support is telling.

A complete redesign is required. Reaper and Scourge are evidence of limited effort toward that goal but still preserve core skills and traits. Core Necromancer and all of its skills, traits, and special mechanics require a vast rework to eliminate both the heavy debuffing focus and shroud mechanic.

To start, I would create a major split between game modes for all Necromancer builds and balance them separately until a full profession rework is complete.

I disagree that the debuffing aspect of necromancer is the problem with its design. I've mentioned for years that the problem is shroud. And shroud needs a complete redesign or to be replaced entirely while all the skills need the same. What's needed for the necromancer isn't a medium change like the mesmer just got, but a major one. More than 90% of the necromancers skills need to be looked at and changed.

Well, the debuffing aspect is a design problem as long as debuffing is meaningless in the biggest area of the game (PvE)

But it's not meaningless. Optimal dps still need 25 vuln stacks. Some professions still need to find a specific condition applyed on the boss/mob to do their job optimaly. It's just that you don't need (and it's a relief because you shouldn't specifically need) a necromancer to apply those conditions.

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Since we are all sharing our thoughts... Here is mine.

I love necromancer. Especially reapers. The theme is just amazing.

I think the devs don't boost the damage because necromancers are "the guys who never die". Which is why they "can't" give them more damage.

But I think the problem could be partly solved very easily: Add a trait that sacrifices a consequent amount of HP, for an general increase in damage.=> Suits the necro theme: sacrifice, masochistic, being selfish...=> As a trait, it's not mandatory. It just adds a choice for the player, just like elementalists can be healers or DPS, rangers can be condi or healers.=> If the player can't survive, he just turns it off, to be able to enjoy the main reason to be a necro: always being alive.=> If it doesn't work for PvP, just split.

However, I don't think it shouldn't allow the DPS to be MUCH higher than a holo or a weaver. Their rotations is much more complicated, so it should be more rewarding, but not by a huge amount.But enough for this class to be accepted everywhere...

Just MHO...

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@"Galmac.4680" said:That's totally wrong, why sacrify health for things that other classes just have. Warriors won't die if played good, ranger won't die because they use longbow and their pet. But we have to "pay" for any damage?

Rangers don't die because they have a longbow and their pet,. but if they use their longbow and their pet their damage is considerably less than it would be if they were using different weapons from a closer range. I play both Necro and Ranger,. though I'm better at ranger. Rangers choose between survivability and doing damage quite frequently. If you want to do more damage, you have to be less survivable.

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I'd much prefer having traits that give bonuses while below the health threshold, encouraging risk taking to get payoffs. Just some ideas anet will ignore:Foot in the Grave – While below the health threshold, gain bonus to critical-hit chance.Spiteful Wishes – Deal increased damage to foes with no boons. Damage bonus is increased while you are below the health threshold.Strength of the Undead – Deal more damage while your health is lower than your life force.Last Grasp – Deal more damage based on your missing health.Close to Death – Deal bonus damage to foes below the health threshold. Damage bonus is doubled if you are below the health threshold.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:That was well written, Lily.

The problem with Necromancer is that it was designed to be a debuffer in a game where debuffing in PvE has little value. That, alone, makes the profession impossible to balance. The fact that any profession can perform the same function but instead focuses most effort in build on dps or other types of support is telling.

A complete redesign is required. Reaper and Scourge are evidence of limited effort toward that goal but still preserve core skills and traits. Core Necromancer and all of its skills, traits, and special mechanics require a vast rework to eliminate both the heavy debuffing focus and shroud mechanic.

To start, I would create a major split between game modes for all Necromancer builds and balance them separately until a full profession rework is complete.

I disagree that the debuffing aspect of necromancer is the problem with its design. I've mentioned for years that the problem is shroud. And shroud needs a complete redesign or to be replaced entirely while all the skills need the same. What's needed for the necromancer isn't a medium change like the mesmer just got, but a major one. More than 90% of the necromancers skills need to be looked at and changed.

Well, the debuffing aspect is a design problem as long as debuffing is meaningless in the biggest area of the game (PvE)

But it's not meaningless. Optimal dps still need 25 vuln stacks. Some professions still need to find a specific condition applyed on the boss/mob to do their job optimaly. It's just that you don't need (and it's a relief because you shouldn't specifically need) a necromancer to apply those conditions.

Congrats, you can put conditions on things to satisfy Requirement X of Class Y. Do those conditions actually mean anything? Nope, because the Defiance bar is a thing.

Literally the ONLY non-damaging condition in the game that works on bosses (the only things worth debuffing in the first place) is Vulnerability, which is capped by accident in group settings (because what people use to accomplish other goals also happens to put it out).

But the only enemies you can debuff in PvE are ones you really don't care about. Those you want to debuff, you can't.

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