Increasing TTK, Undoing Old Split Changes and Eliminating Skill Splitting - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Increasing TTK, Undoing Old Split Changes and Eliminating Skill Splitting

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  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Victory.2879 said:
    A really easy change would be to reduce the maximum damage any one skill can cause to 25% of the target's HP pool. It's not fun being hit for 10-14k on a staff tempest with 3k armor (2k toughness) when your total health is 17k or so. Then rework skills and buffs and debuffs and condi spam around this new maximum.

    Now that almost every hit received is crit damage, fix the multipliers.

    The current state of the game isn't much fun unless you like facerolling across your keyboard as a condi shade spam necro or a CoR or a vaulter.

    That isn't an easy change at all. In fact that would be quite the opposite - among the most complex of changes, not something ANET can devote a great deal of resources to...

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Victory.2879Victory.2879 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Victory.2879 said:
    A really easy change would be to reduce the maximum damage any one skill can cause to 25% of the target's HP pool. It's not fun being hit for 10-14k on a staff tempest with 3k armor (2k toughness) when your total health is 17k or so. Then rework skills and buffs and debuffs and condi spam around this new maximum.

    Now that almost every hit received is crit damage, fix the multipliers.

    The current state of the game isn't much fun unless you like facerolling across your keyboard as a condi shade spam necro or a CoR or a vaulter.

    That isn't an easy change at all. In fact that would be quite the opposite - among the most complex of changes, not something ANET can devote a great deal of resources to...

    Seeing as they currently devote almost zero resources to it, any change can be out in the 'not likely to happen at all' pile.

    Not sure why it would be so hard though- a hard cap is a lot easier to program than almost any other form of damage calculation.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Victory.2879 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Victory.2879 said:
    A really easy change would be to reduce the maximum damage any one skill can cause to 25% of the target's HP pool. It's not fun being hit for 10-14k on a staff tempest with 3k armor (2k toughness) when your total health is 17k or so. Then rework skills and buffs and debuffs and condi spam around this new maximum.

    Now that almost every hit received is crit damage, fix the multipliers.

    The current state of the game isn't much fun unless you like facerolling across your keyboard as a condi shade spam necro or a CoR or a vaulter.

    That isn't an easy change at all. In fact that would be quite the opposite - among the most complex of changes, not something ANET can devote a great deal of resources to...

    Seeing as they currently devote almost zero resources to it, any change can be out in the 'not likely to happen at all' pile.

    Not sure why it would be so hard though- a hard cap is a lot easier to program than almost any other form of damage calculation.

    the cap is easy to put in. the balance changes that need to happen after that however..

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A straight damage-to-health cap?
    Really?

    I suppose it would be an indirect nerf to tankier builds, but why are we suggesting band aid solutions instead of looking to adjust individual skills, utility of trait combinations that overperform? The only thing I feel should have a "damage cap" are the traits, sigils, runes, utilities and such that grant a direct bonus to damage (not actually improving power or condition damage). That's where a lot of these insane numbers are coming from.

    ~ Kovu

    Fort Aspenwood,
    Ranger, Necromancer.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2019

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 @Ben Phongluangtham.1065

    Everyday we have new threads popping up with concerns about "power creep", nerf X, 1 shot complaints...

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/65002/balance-a-note-to-the-devs

    10k, 15k, 20k... damage bursts won't seem so bad when you are not killed in 1 or 2 hits anymore, and have a better chance to fight back.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mov.1246 said:
    Health, vitaly and toughness is the same like at gw2 launch.
    Power and condi creep increased with the two expansions, but health remained to be the same as before.
    They put in more blocks, invulns, evades, boons, and more and more defensive machanics to professions to compensate damage creep. But health still remains the same.
    Do u see the problem?

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    Agree with those that say we should rather look at reducing the power creep of the elite-spez etc, rather than messing with all the other stats.

    I'm imaging that stopping making damage modifiers stack, and only use the highest one would be an interesting change. Though I could be wrong.

    would result in a very dull bunker meta and only condition damage in offensive builds.

    It wouldn't be the only change, but the general idea would be to stop damage buffs from stacking, rather increase each damage buff, and make it more about managing upkeeps of them rather than stacking on top of each others. That way ANet could (if they wanted to) keep the power creep more in check, by having a max damage +X% and restrict the uptime. (Unfortunately I'm not good enough to be able to pull good numbers from my head, so I won't try)

    I'd also like to see just about everything being reduced a bit in general, the game is on steroids compared to before HOT.

    @apharma.3741 +1

    the problem is we need stacked damage to be able to perform burst combos able to take down bunkers. beause sustained damage is lower then sutained healing when fighting a bunker with tons of damage mitigation /boons etc. if you just remove stacking from direct damage we would deal tons of more damage with conditions.
    if there would be alot less healing and less boons then maybe
    do you remember good times when blasting fields was^actually good for healing? sure there was alot less damage around, but now there is so much healing no one would bother with a water field.

    This is just incorrect, any class with reasonable damage can kill a full minstrel firebrand (some classes are harder but that's the ones that don't really contribute in minstrel) given a reasonable amount of time, at least I never struggle with killing them on any reasonable build, ofc it takes a while. Sustained damage is incredibly high, burst damage is insanely over the top to a very unhealthy degree, sustained healing is definitively not higher than sustained damage atm.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2019

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    Agree with those that say we should rather look at reducing the power creep of the elite-spez etc, rather than messing with all the other stats.

    I'm imaging that stopping making damage modifiers stack, and only use the highest one would be an interesting change. Though I could be wrong.

    would result in a very dull bunker meta and only condition damage in offensive builds.

    It wouldn't be the only change, but the general idea would be to stop damage buffs from stacking, rather increase each damage buff, and make it more about managing upkeeps of them rather than stacking on top of each others. That way ANet could (if they wanted to) keep the power creep more in check, by having a max damage +X% and restrict the uptime. (Unfortunately I'm not good enough to be able to pull good numbers from my head, so I won't try)

    I'd also like to see just about everything being reduced a bit in general, the game is on steroids compared to before HOT.

    @apharma.3741 +1

    the problem is we need stacked damage to be able to perform burst combos able to take down bunkers. beause sustained damage is lower then sutained healing when fighting a bunker with tons of damage mitigation /boons etc. if you just remove stacking from direct damage we would deal tons of more damage with conditions.
    if there would be alot less healing and less boons then maybe
    do you remember good times when blasting fields was^actually good for healing? sure there was alot less damage around, but now there is so much healing no one would bother with a water field.

    This is just incorrect, any class with reasonable damage can kill a full minstrel firebrand (some classes are harder but that's the ones that don't really contribute in minstrel) given a reasonable amount of time, at least I never struggle with killing them on any reasonable build, ofc it takes a while. Sustained damage is incredibly high, burst damage is insanely over the top to a very unhealthy degree, sustained healing is definitively not higher than sustained damage atm.

    if they just stand still to let you hit them sure and you still kill them in bursts not in sustained damage.
    but surely worth the necro ;)

    read this, become a better player now.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 @Ben Phongluangtham.1065

    Everyday we have new threads popping up with concerns about "power creep", nerf X, 1 shot complaints...

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/65002/balance-a-note-to-the-devs

    10k, 15k, 20k... damage bursts won't seem so bad when you are not killed in 1 or 2 hits anymore, and have a better chance to fight back.

    Here's another thing for you to link to them:

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63078/is-damage-too-high

    Over 75% of people who voted think it's too high at time of writing.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    Agree with those that say we should rather look at reducing the power creep of the elite-spez etc, rather than messing with all the other stats.

    I'm imaging that stopping making damage modifiers stack, and only use the highest one would be an interesting change. Though I could be wrong.

    would result in a very dull bunker meta and only condition damage in offensive builds.

    It wouldn't be the only change, but the general idea would be to stop damage buffs from stacking, rather increase each damage buff, and make it more about managing upkeeps of them rather than stacking on top of each others. That way ANet could (if they wanted to) keep the power creep more in check, by having a max damage +X% and restrict the uptime. (Unfortunately I'm not good enough to be able to pull good numbers from my head, so I won't try)

    I'd also like to see just about everything being reduced a bit in general, the game is on steroids compared to before HOT.

    @apharma.3741 +1

    the problem is we need stacked damage to be able to perform burst combos able to take down bunkers. beause sustained damage is lower then sutained healing when fighting a bunker with tons of damage mitigation /boons etc. if you just remove stacking from direct damage we would deal tons of more damage with conditions.
    if there would be alot less healing and less boons then maybe
    do you remember good times when blasting fields was^actually good for healing? sure there was alot less damage around, but now there is so much healing no one would bother with a water field.

    This is just incorrect, any class with reasonable damage can kill a full minstrel firebrand (some classes are harder but that's the ones that don't really contribute in minstrel) given a reasonable amount of time, at least I never struggle with killing them on any reasonable build, ofc it takes a while. Sustained damage is incredibly high, burst damage is insanely over the top to a very unhealthy degree, sustained healing is definitively not higher than sustained damage atm.

    if they just stand still to let you hit them sure and you still kill them in bursts not in sustained damage.
    but surely worth the necro ;)

    It was on the first page tho, not my fault the WvW forum is dead (like the gamemode). You can kill any of the slower high sustain builds, you can't kill full minstrel druids that instantly run away when they see you ofc, but that isn't due to their mediocre sustain but due to their obscene mobility. Not every class kills in bursts.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Bort.8647Bort.8647 Member ✭✭✭

    I agree that increasing TTK would be a good change both for smallscale roaming and zerg fights. I think power creep is an important issue that mostly goes unaddressed. It seems like the only increase in defensive ability since launch has come from more boons/evades/blocks/invuln/mobility.

    Because of the power creep, roaming has largely turned into 1 shot battles, where you do your burst combo, and reset if you miss. In my opinion, It is not good design if 1 shot combos are so easy to pull off. I don't necessarily think 1 shots are bad, but using a 1 shot combo should make you vulnerable, or be difficult to pull off. Things like elementalist churning earth -> lightning flash are what 1 shot combos should be. Devastating if they hit, but easy to avoid if you are paying attention, and they leave you in a bad position if you miss.
    Some examples of ridiculous damage I have recently experienced while roaming:

    • 10k backstab (hit from the front)
    • 12k coalescence of ruin (4s cd)
    • 25k volley (warrior rifle 3) (10s cd)
    • 5k reckless dodge (warrior dodge roll trait)
    • 18k shadow assault (thief spear 5) on a minstrel firebrand
      In all these cases, the player was self buffed. I know people will say to just dodge these telegraphed skills, however that is just ignoring the problem of power creep. If most skills do very high damage, you cant avoid them all.

    In zerg fights, I think its a bit more difficult to decide when power creep is a problem. If you stand still and get hit by the other zergs bomb, you should die, no matter how many supports you have. However many fights just turn into who can insta-down more players with rev/necro bombs, and then win the rally war. These kind of fights are not very engaging, and benefit individual players with fast reflexes more than groups with good supports and positioning. The other day I hit a 19k Coalescence of Ruin with my rev, the skill has a 4s cd and hits 5 people.

    I think the only way to solve this is to have some kind of damage/stat scaling in place, such as scaling wvw damage/stats to be closer to pvp values.

  • XenoSpyro.1780XenoSpyro.1780 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chorazin.4107 said:
    It was, in general, a better all round playing experience than what we currently have. Id be more interested in playing a 'vanilla' server, which is GW2 just prior to HoT release over what we currently have.

    I'm pretty sure this game wouldn't be nearly as disfunctional if they didn't change the traiting system and introduce Elites. I never got to experience the old system and I wish I was around to do so.

  • Celsith.2753Celsith.2753 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The video I'm posting is of thief, but it is merely to highlight damage output vs a player's health... There are issues for players and devs across the board that could be alleviated by increasing player health... Please strongly consider making some positive changes by working on known issues that repel players from this mode, and cause a lot of unnecessary controversy for the player base.


    I also considered posting threads of complaints about damage output from power and condition builds, but I don't think I need to... Anyone who has followed the forums over 6 years knows the complaints about damage are ongoing, and something needs to be done.

    TY

    He's in zerker gear and he's killing other glass cannons, are you saying a glass cannon shouldn't be able to quickly kill another one?
    I agree that time to kill in some cases is out of whack but not in that scenario. A full zerk full glass traited cannon SHOULD be able to quickly kill.. anything.. and there's the problem to me.. some classes have the ability to be so tanky/defensive they can run halfway across the map before they die. And that's the reason why anyone running less than full defensive dies so quickly - because it's necessary for some classes/builds to be able to ouput so much in order to kill the max tank.
    Nerf defense, make it more active and less auto trait, rethink tanky gear possibilities, then look at damage.

    Edit: I've been watching another game in process which looked interesting but had a worrying long TTK. Last update I watched they increased TTK even more which is a huge No Thankyou for me. Even as an older gamer with a high ping this just seems incredibly boring to me even though it'd probably benefit me, ha. Do people just not like a thrill anymore?

    750k+ WvW kills
    Diamond No Life
    [HUNT] Predatory Instinct

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The video I'm posting is of thief, but it is merely to highlight damage output vs a player's health... There are issues for players and devs across the board that could be alleviated by increasing player health... Please strongly consider making some positive changes by working on known issues that repel players from this mode, and cause a lot of unnecessary controversy for the player base.


    I also considered posting threads of complaints about damage output from power and condition builds, but I don't think I need to... Anyone who has followed the forums over 6 years knows the complaints about damage are ongoing, and something needs to be done.

    TY

    I think what your video showed is that damage from stealth needs to be reduced by 50% or not allowed to crit.

    A Hermit's Tale - To The Edge of the Mists [Link Here]

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Celsith.2753 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The video I'm posting is of thief, but it is merely to highlight damage output vs a player's health... There are issues for players and devs across the board that could be alleviated by increasing player health... Please strongly consider making some positive changes by working on known issues that repel players from this mode, and cause a lot of unnecessary controversy for the player base.


    I also considered posting threads of complaints about damage output from power and condition builds, but I don't think I need to... Anyone who has followed the forums over 6 years knows the complaints about damage are ongoing, and something needs to be done.

    TY

    He's in zerker gear and he's killing other glass cannons, are you saying a glass cannon shouldn't be able to quickly kill another one?
    I agree that time to kill in some cases is out of whack but not in that scenario. A full zerk full glass traited cannon SHOULD be able to quickly kill.. anything.. and there's the problem to me.. some classes have the ability to be so tanky/defensive they can run halfway across the map before they die. And that's the reason why anyone running less than full defensive dies so quickly - because it's necessary for some classes/builds to be able to ouput so much in order to kill the max tank.
    Nerf defense, make it more active and less auto trait, rethink tanky gear possibilities, then look at damage.

    Edit: I've been watching another game in process which looked interesting but had a worrying long TTK. Last update I watched they increased TTK even more which is a huge No Thankyou for me. Even as an older gamer with a high ping this just seems incredibly boring to me even though it'd probably benefit me, ha. Do people just not like a thrill anymore?

    glass cannons should be able to kill each other quickly but not from stealth with zero tells.

    A Hermit's Tale - To The Edge of the Mists [Link Here]

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chorazin.4107 said:
    There is far too much damage in the game atm in WvW, I was watching some of my old shadowplay prior to HoT release when I first started playing WvW recently. Then comparing it with the current gameplay of people insta exploding. A lot of your damage had to come from focused assist, not just a 'lulz bomb this area' blanket AoE approach

    Your Guardians ran Cleric for the most part, maybe some Soldiers mixed in. So boons were limited in duration, conditions were present in the game but were not anywhere near as suffocating. They existed as a compliment to a classes damage component for the most part, it wasnt until the condition patch came along where they bumped all the condition output that conditions as an outright build became viable.

    It is barely the same game, healing relied mostly on blasting water fields as there were no real dedicated heal skills, you could empower, healing breeze, MI and Virtue of Resolve but outside this you needed water fields. The damage comes in at such a large rate now even dedicated healing outside of instant speed is rendered pretty much useless. You have to preheal, as in already be channeling a heal rather than be reactionary. By the time you are reacting it is too late, people are insta down.
    https://gfycat.com/ZealousClearEchidna

    It was exciting when you landed a 6k mighty blow, now I hit a Phase Smash on 4 people for 10k, 9k, 9k, 8.5k and am like' meh, average'. Im not excited unless I see a 15k+ CoR.

    It was, in general, a better all round playing experience than what we currently have. Id be more interested in playing a 'vanilla' server, which is GW2 just prior to HoT release over what we currently have.

    The camera shake...oh no, my eyes, ah god no my eyes! it burns, IT BURNS!!

    jk, yeah the damage right now is completely crazy, it's a spamfiesta, press 1 button and do more damage than classes have base health. I second a vanilla GW2 experience from just prior to HoT, it was by far one of the best balance periods there was.

  • Chorazin.4107Chorazin.4107 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The camera shake...oh no, my eyes, ah god no my eyes! it burns, IT BURNS!!

    jk, yeah the damage right now is completely crazy, it's a spamfiesta, press 1 button and do more damage than classes have base health. I second a vanilla GW2 experience from just prior to HoT, it was by far one of the best balance periods there was.

    Haha, didnt realise you could turn camera shake off and turn down graphical effects.

    The gfycat shows how crazy the damage is at the moment, about 5 or 6 people auto down from the enemy group. One CoR I think hits for 16k, 12k, 10k on three different people, plus the usual 6k hits thrown in. It's like you need perma protection or you are going to insta die.

    [lion] - [tRex] - [nâh]

  • Celsith.2753Celsith.2753 Member ✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    glass cannons should be able to kill each other quickly but not from stealth with zero tells.

    Pistol 5 has a red circle on the ground, a bullet shooting and audio, there was a tell. A lot of those people in that video SHOULD have been aware that a thief was right there .. someone just got magically stomped in front of them apart from anything else.

    750k+ WvW kills
    Diamond No Life
    [HUNT] Predatory Instinct

  • Celsith.2753Celsith.2753 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    jk, yeah the damage right now is completely crazy, it's a spamfiesta, press 1 button and do more damage than classes have base health. I second a vanilla GW2 experience from just prior to HoT, it was by far one of the best balance periods there was.

    I mained thief back then and 18k+ backstabs were not uncommon. Steal could crit. Cloak and Dagger 5k+. The difference on the classes people complain was not Time To Kill, it was the risk/reward. Thief didn't have hard to catch for example. Or the damage reduction in stealth trait. Mesmers had time frames in which you could actually hit them.. etc. I wonder if a conversation around risk/reward would be useful?

    750k+ WvW kills
    Diamond No Life
    [HUNT] Predatory Instinct

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Celsith.2753 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    glass cannons should be able to kill each other quickly but not from stealth with zero tells.

    Pistol 5 has a red circle on the ground, a bullet shooting and audio, there was a tell. A lot of those people in that video SHOULD have been aware that a thief was right there .. someone just got magically stomped in front of them apart from anything else.

    Yea and when the thief can stack stealth endlessly, when is the Attack going to come from the point we notice he is around?
    2 seconds later? 5 secs? 10 secs? 20 secs? And then wham you go down to a backstab.

    A Hermit's Tale - To The Edge of the Mists [Link Here]

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Celsith.2753 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The video I'm posting is of thief, but it is merely to highlight damage output vs a player's health... There are issues for players and devs across the board that could be alleviated by increasing player health... Please strongly consider making some positive changes by working on known issues that repel players from this mode, and cause a lot of unnecessary controversy for the player base.


    I also considered posting threads of complaints about damage output from power and condition builds, but I don't think I need to... Anyone who has followed the forums over 6 years knows the complaints about damage are ongoing, and something needs to be done.

    TY

    He's in zerker gear and he's killing other glass cannons, are you saying a glass cannon shouldn't be able to quickly kill another one?
    I agree that time to kill in some cases is out of whack but not in that scenario. A full zerk full glass traited cannon SHOULD be able to quickly kill.. anything.. and there's the problem to me.. some classes have the ability to be so tanky/defensive they can run halfway across the map before they die. And that's the reason why anyone running less than full defensive dies so quickly - because it's necessary for some classes/builds to be able to ouput so much in order to kill the max tank.
    Nerf defense, make it more active and less auto trait, rethink tanky gear possibilities, then look at damage.

    Edit: I've been watching another game in process which looked interesting but had a worrying long TTK. Last update I watched they increased TTK even more which is a huge No Thankyou for me. Even as an older gamer with a high ping this just seems incredibly boring to me even though it'd probably benefit me, ha. Do people just not like a thrill anymore?

    glass cannons should be able to kill each other quickly but not from stealth with zero tells.

    So nerf sustained stealth, considering it's the major issue at hand for D/P Daredevil, Deadeye, Mirage, WI/RF soulbeast, and 100-0 nuke holosmith, and it's the only reason this stuff happens.

    I know you know that the thief in the aforementioned video dies to a stiff breeze and that the problem is that you can't see it engage more than it is the damage, since you and I both know well that skills like Ghastly Claws run a 67% higher skill damage coefficient. If you nerf skills like backstab it just forces every thief in the whole game to either move to things like SA rifle which plays extremely non-commital. The thief already has some of the lowest skill damage coefficients in the game of all classes - including necro - it just invests way more heavily into offense than most realize to get these kinds of numbers, and it can do so largely because its defenses can be cheesed with no investment really required, as we're seeing above.

    The issue yet again, as it has been for a long time, is that a number of these builds do not carry substantial risk to play and do not require substantial skill or game knowledge to pull off. Want to one-shot someone? It should demand way more risk to pull off than camping defenses and range and then exploding someone before they can react. I use D/D thief as the prime example of how these kits should be designed, because it does more damage than the above video and yet the kit is considered terrible because it is not only visible on engage (thus has counterplay by giving people the chance to react) but also carries zero backup plans and is generally one of the worst weapon setups in the game into most matchups by merit of its skills outside of backstab being horrendously bad. There's almost never an instance when dying to power D/D you didn't die from means beyond your control. And that's how all things should be. The current OP's like Mirage and Soulbeast are the opposite in that there's next to no investment required and very little risk involved in getting very high damage and thus they can opt heavily into sustain.

    This kind of damage in respects to thief was also available in the past only to people who ran the off-meta crit strikes trait line AND the signet traits. ANet "buffed" the signets and its respective traits by putting about 90% of the power into just Assassin's Signet with no trait investment required as it used to be, and then downright nerfed the signet traits and toned its max-level full-investment power down. There's active discouragement from running the riskier build because it poses quite objectively zero advantages over the cheese setup.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Celsith.2753 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    jk, yeah the damage right now is completely crazy, it's a spamfiesta, press 1 button and do more damage than classes have base health. I second a vanilla GW2 experience from just prior to HoT, it was by far one of the best balance periods there was.

    I mained thief back then and 18k+ backstabs were not uncommon. Steal could crit. Cloak and Dagger 5k+. The difference on the classes people complain was not Time To Kill, it was the risk/reward. Thief didn't have hard to catch for example. Or the damage reduction in stealth trait. Mesmers had time frames in which you could actually hit them.. etc. I wonder if a conversation around risk/reward would be useful?

    Thank you. That's the real problem today and nobody seems to see it. So much of both damage and defense for almost every profession comes at no/low cost at all or with very marginal risk for a ton of reward.

    Mug crits were removed for the simple reason that it was not risky enough for the reward, especially with the old Assassin's signet. ANet could have made steal be telegraphed, but that'd have ruined the thief as a class, so they dropped the reward of free damage/using it as an engage tool and bumped up the reward for using it post-engage by giving it some sustain and removing the crit potential.

    I think most people around today need to spend some time playing D/D power thief. It's one of the few kits that actually strikes what should be the desired proper balance of risk/reward (not proper in terms of actual risk/reward relative to the rest of the game being that it's so weak) and hasn't had its power inflated to absurdity by having so many freebies.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Celsith.2753 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    jk, yeah the damage right now is completely crazy, it's a spamfiesta, press 1 button and do more damage than classes have base health. I second a vanilla GW2 experience from just prior to HoT, it was by far one of the best balance periods there was.

    I mained thief back then and 18k+ backstabs were not uncommon. Steal could crit. Cloak and Dagger 5k+. The difference on the classes people complain was not Time To Kill, it was the risk/reward. Thief didn't have hard to catch for example. Or the damage reduction in stealth trait. Mesmers had time frames in which you could actually hit them.. etc. I wonder if a conversation around risk/reward would be useful?

    Thank you. That's the real problem today and nobody seems to see it. So much of both damage and defense for almost every profession comes at no/low cost at all or with very marginal risk for a ton of reward.

    Mug crits were removed for the simple reason that it was not risky enough for the reward, especially with the old Assassin's signet. ANet could have made steal be telegraphed, but that'd have ruined the thief as a class, so they dropped the reward of free damage/using it as an engage tool and bumped up the reward for using it post-engage by giving it some sustain and removing the crit potential.

    I think most people around today need to spend some time playing D/D power thief. It's one of the few kits that actually strikes what should be the desired proper balance of risk/reward (not proper in terms of actual risk/reward relative to the rest of the game being that it's so weak) and hasn't had its power inflated to absurdity by having so many freebies.

    That's not just the problem, very few skills had trade offs for using them, the only one's that really come to mind were ranged weapons doing a lot less damage and anything that gave quickness right at launch where you took more damage or couldn't heal. Nearly every skill for the most part was a benefit to you.

    Even going through the meta builds at the time the best was always the least risk, highest reward for the class. So why was it OK back then and we all look back at those times with nostalgia? It's because you didn't die in 1s, the TTK was significantly higher for most builds and classes. Yes there were instagib builds and as you rightly pointed out they were by and large risky (they had a good risk/reward balance) but most of the time it was just a match up you'd lose after a while and even "high damage builds" like the old power necro would take a few seconds to lay on the damage and kill you.

    Now? You can be dead in a blink of the eye, as soon as you run out of blocks, invulns, stealth etc you're dead. You could make things as risky as you want but dead people don't fight back, all you have to do is land it and you win which would then push people further to stealth ganks. TTK and risk need to go up, together, it's not a singular issue and they're both in some ways relevant to each other.

  • Celsith.2753Celsith.2753 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Yes there were instagib builds and as you rightly pointed out they were by and large risky (they had a good risk/reward balance) but most of the time it was just a match >up you'd lose after a while and even "high damage builds" like the old power necro would take a few seconds to lay on the damage and kill you.

    This to me is absolutely where things are different now. Very specific classes in glass gear with higher risk could burst - and as much as some people seem to hate it, that type IS needed. Now it seems like far too many classes can do it whilst having an over the top amount of defense. The rot started with the pre HoT trait changes that gave everyone 3 trait lines AND moved some traits around so suddenly you could take defense whilst doing high damage, imo. That's where I point my finger.

    750k+ WvW kills
    Diamond No Life
    [HUNT] Predatory Instinct

  • Celsith.2753Celsith.2753 Member ✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Celsith.2753 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    glass cannons should be able to kill each other quickly but not from stealth with zero tells.

    Pistol 5 has a red circle on the ground, a bullet shooting and audio, there was a tell. A lot of those people in that video SHOULD have been aware that a thief was right there .. someone just got magically stomped in front of them apart from anything else.

    Yea and when the thief can stack stealth endlessly, when is the Attack going to come from the point we notice he is around?
    2 seconds later? 5 secs? 10 secs? 20 secs? And then wham you go down to a backstab.

    Most of the time I notice /shrug. When I don't it was my fault.

    750k+ WvW kills
    Diamond No Life
    [HUNT] Predatory Instinct

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Celsith.2753 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    jk, yeah the damage right now is completely crazy, it's a spamfiesta, press 1 button and do more damage than classes have base health. I second a vanilla GW2 experience from just prior to HoT, it was by far one of the best balance periods there was.

    I mained thief back then and 18k+ backstabs were not uncommon. Steal could crit. Cloak and Dagger 5k+. The difference on the classes people complain was not Time To Kill, it was the risk/reward. Thief didn't have hard to catch for example. Or the damage reduction in stealth trait. Mesmers had time frames in which you could actually hit them.. etc. I wonder if a conversation around risk/reward would be useful?

    Thank you. That's the real problem today and nobody seems to see it. So much of both damage and defense for almost every profession comes at no/low cost at all or with very marginal risk for a ton of reward.

    Mug crits were removed for the simple reason that it was not risky enough for the reward, especially with the old Assassin's signet. ANet could have made steal be telegraphed, but that'd have ruined the thief as a class, so they dropped the reward of free damage/using it as an engage tool and bumped up the reward for using it post-engage by giving it some sustain and removing the crit potential.

    I think most people around today need to spend some time playing D/D power thief. It's one of the few kits that actually strikes what should be the desired proper balance of risk/reward (not proper in terms of actual risk/reward relative to the rest of the game being that it's so weak) and hasn't had its power inflated to absurdity by having so many freebies.

    That's not just the problem, very few skills had trade offs for using them, the only one's that really come to mind were ranged weapons doing a lot less damage and anything that gave quickness right at launch where you took more damage or couldn't heal. Nearly every skill for the most part was a benefit to you.

    Even going through the meta builds at the time the best was always the least risk, highest reward for the class. So why was it OK back then and we all look back at those times with nostalgia? It's because you didn't die in 1s, the TTK was significantly higher for most builds and classes. Yes there were instagib builds and as you rightly pointed out they were by and large risky (they had a good risk/reward balance) but most of the time it was just a match up you'd lose after a while and even "high damage builds" like the old power necro would take a few seconds to lay on the damage and kill you.

    Now? You can be dead in a blink of the eye, as soon as you run out of blocks, invulns, stealth etc you're dead. You could make things as risky as you want but dead people don't fight back, all you have to do is land it and you win which would then push people further to stealth ganks. TTK and risk need to go up, together, it's not a singular issue and they're both in some ways relevant to each other.

    Do remember that quickness also originally increased attack speed by 100% instead of 50%. The things which used to give damage by far and large came in superior fashion when you put all the pieces of an offensive build together. People just mostly didn't run those builds.
    TTK didn't really change; the builds that are considered better today just have faster TTK than the old ones, because the old builds with high TTK were extremely risky and were only actually played successfully by people who mastered them.

    Which is why I don't think damage is too high per se; the burst builds from way back when are doing the same damage today, if not less. Old GS maul ranger used to hit harder than WI soulbeast does and did. WI soulbeast is just way stronger because old GS maul ranger could only do its combo once every 40s and had at most 6s of immunity effects whereas soulbeast can chain an upwards of 14s. Old signet thief dealt much more than current signet thief by nearly 10k on backstab alone. I have screenshots of me being hit by 30k shatters from back when despite wearing the same gear running the same build.

    Increased access to massive damage has occurred as a consequence because of the increased defenses and immunities. Marauder alone brings nearly 20% more stats over a zerk/valk mix reducing TTK while maintaining damage for the most part because the lost power and ferocity is pretty paltry. Concentration has builds able to divest from boon sources into more raw damage and defensive stats both raising durability and reducing killing speed. The firebrand and sustain scrapper are basically unkillable without unblockable attacks and massive burst damage. TTK has barely changed for burst builds. It's just gotten way faster for tankier stuff, because when everyone is running around immune to damage 50% of the time, we'd end up in a cele ele situation again where bunkers would be unkillable thanks to how potent the defenses in the game have gotten, and have been made available at such a low cost.

    A lot of unnecessary buffs have happened to kits which didn't need more damage, and as has been pointed out above, a lot of the most potent low-risk high-reward high burst builds started emerging when we got three full trait lines with people being able to run without sacrifice.

    Short of game-wide overhauls it's never getting better. Especially because so many of the more recent mechanics just can't be balanced in an environment where TTK is reduced. Stuff like Mirage Cloak and SA DE, firebrand sustain, and so on all mandate that they can be deleted instantly with absurd incoming damage otherwise they just can't be killed at all.

    Sure if we're advocating for the removal of powercreep, that's fine, but reducing damage isn't the only thing that needs to happen. Reductions to sustain and a lot of the more recent mechanics and gear/stat additions which massively reduce risk and increase stat efficiency all have to go, otherwise current problems end up exacerbated more than anything else.

    It's why I have a doom-and-gloom perspective of the game; we've seen absolutely no attempts made to actually fix these systemic issues in nearly half a decade. The simple tone of approaches like "reduced TTK" will achieve nothing in the end on their own because on their own and without a major vision for the future, the game state simply can't improve.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Celsith.2753 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Celsith.2753 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    glass cannons should be able to kill each other quickly but not from stealth with zero tells.

    Pistol 5 has a red circle on the ground, a bullet shooting and audio, there was a tell. A lot of those people in that video SHOULD have been aware that a thief was right there .. someone just got magically stomped in front of them apart from anything else.

    Yea and when the thief can stack stealth endlessly, when is the Attack going to come from the point we notice he is around?
    2 seconds later? 5 secs? 10 secs? 20 secs? And then wham you go down to a backstab.

    Most of the time I notice /shrug. When I don't it was my fault.

    oh wow so you can see the timing of an attack that comes from perma invis with zero tells...please teach me senpai

    A Hermit's Tale - To The Edge of the Mists [Link Here]

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Celsith.2753 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    jk, yeah the damage right now is completely crazy, it's a spamfiesta, press 1 button and do more damage than classes have base health. I second a vanilla GW2 experience from just prior to HoT, it was by far one of the best balance periods there was.

    I mained thief back then and 18k+ backstabs were not uncommon. Steal could crit. Cloak and Dagger 5k+. The difference on the classes people complain was not Time To Kill, it was the risk/reward. Thief didn't have hard to catch for example. Or the damage reduction in stealth trait. Mesmers had time frames in which you could actually hit them.. etc. I wonder if a conversation around risk/reward would be useful?

    Thank you. That's the real problem today and nobody seems to see it. So much of both damage and defense for almost every profession comes at no/low cost at all or with very marginal risk for a ton of reward.

    Mug crits were removed for the simple reason that it was not risky enough for the reward, especially with the old Assassin's signet. ANet could have made steal be telegraphed, but that'd have ruined the thief as a class, so they dropped the reward of free damage/using it as an engage tool and bumped up the reward for using it post-engage by giving it some sustain and removing the crit potential.

    I think most people around today need to spend some time playing D/D power thief. It's one of the few kits that actually strikes what should be the desired proper balance of risk/reward (not proper in terms of actual risk/reward relative to the rest of the game being that it's so weak) and hasn't had its power inflated to absurdity by having so many freebies.

    That's not just the problem, very few skills had trade offs for using them, the only one's that really come to mind were ranged weapons doing a lot less damage and anything that gave quickness right at launch where you took more damage or couldn't heal. Nearly every skill for the most part was a benefit to you.

    Even going through the meta builds at the time the best was always the least risk, highest reward for the class. So why was it OK back then and we all look back at those times with nostalgia? It's because you didn't die in 1s, the TTK was significantly higher for most builds and classes. Yes there were instagib builds and as you rightly pointed out they were by and large risky (they had a good risk/reward balance) but most of the time it was just a match up you'd lose after a while and even "high damage builds" like the old power necro would take a few seconds to lay on the damage and kill you.

    Now? You can be dead in a blink of the eye, as soon as you run out of blocks, invulns, stealth etc you're dead. You could make things as risky as you want but dead people don't fight back, all you have to do is land it and you win which would then push people further to stealth ganks. TTK and risk need to go up, together, it's not a singular issue and they're both in some ways relevant to each other.

    Do remember that quickness also originally increased attack speed by 100% instead of 50%. The things which used to give damage by far and large came in superior fashion when you put all the pieces of an offensive build together. People just mostly didn't run those builds.
    TTK didn't really change; the builds that are considered better today just have faster TTK than the old ones, because the old builds with high TTK were extremely risky and were only actually played successfully by people who mastered them.

    Which is why I don't think damage is too high per se; the burst builds from way back when are doing the same damage today, if not less. Old GS maul ranger used to hit harder than WI soulbeast does and did. WI soulbeast is just way stronger because old GS maul ranger could only do its combo once every 40s and had at most 6s of immunity effects whereas soulbeast can chain an upwards of 14s. Old signet thief dealt much more than current signet thief by nearly 10k on backstab alone. I have screenshots of me being hit by 30k shatters from back when despite wearing the same gear running the same build.

    Increased access to massive damage has occurred as a consequence because of the increased defenses and immunities. Marauder alone brings nearly 20% more stats over a zerk/valk mix reducing TTK while maintaining damage for the most part because the lost power and ferocity is pretty paltry. Concentration has builds able to divest from boon sources into more raw damage and defensive stats both raising durability and reducing killing speed. The firebrand and sustain scrapper are basically unkillable without unblockable attacks and massive burst damage. TTK has barely changed for burst builds. It's just gotten way faster for tankier stuff, because when everyone is running around immune to damage 50% of the time, we'd end up in a cele ele situation again where bunkers would be unkillable thanks to how potent the defenses in the game have gotten, and have been made available at such a low cost.

    A lot of unnecessary buffs have happened to kits which didn't need more damage, and as has been pointed out above, a lot of the most potent low-risk high-reward high burst builds started emerging when we got three full trait lines with people being able to run without sacrifice.

    Short of game-wide overhauls it's never getting better. Especially because so many of the more recent mechanics just can't be balanced in an environment where TTK is reduced. Stuff like Mirage Cloak and SA DE, firebrand sustain, and so on all mandate that they can be deleted instantly with absurd incoming damage otherwise they just can't be killed at all.

    Sure if we're advocating for the removal of powercreep, that's fine, but reducing damage isn't the only thing that needs to happen. Reductions to sustain and a lot of the more recent mechanics and gear/stat additions which massively reduce risk and increase stat efficiency all have to go, otherwise current problems end up exacerbated more than anything else.

    It's why I have a doom-and-gloom perspective of the game; we've seen absolutely no attempts made to actually fix these systemic issues in nearly half a decade. The simple tone of approaches like "reduced TTK" will achieve nothing in the end on their own because on their own and without a major vision for the future, the game state simply can't improve.

    TL;DR

    Its complicated.

    Because thats really what it is. Saying "increase TTK due to damage" is kind of hard when all classes can still build to be tanky as heck, glassy as heck or anything in between. Against literally all classes, I can blow them up in seconds while loosing no hp, have a intermediate fight where we beat each other bloody over 30-60s or have a long 2m+ drawn out slugfest of immortals. Just flat out saying "increase TTK" is meaningless.

    Because its complicated.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The term "time to kill" isn't particularly useful in a game mode where the fights can scale to the degree that they can in wvw. Changing base health a little isn't going to change the time it takes you to die against good groups. You're still going to die to them in one or two seconds if they're playing well together.

    This is because a good group doesn't hit you with one skill. They hit you with 10+ skills in the same place at the same time.

    So even if you increased ele health to 30k or 40k, an ele is still going to die in 1-2 seconds if they're out of position or don't use their defensives effectively.

    Acknowledging my bias, I personally prefer high stakes fast paced kill or be killed very low margin for error type gameplay. So for me the pacing of the fights is probably the best it's ever been and I've played through every meta since launch.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019

    @Israel.7056 said:
    The term "time to kill" isn't particularly useful in a game mode where the fights can scale to the degree that they can in wvw. Changing base health a little isn't going to change the time it takes you to die against good groups. You're still going to die to them in one or two seconds if they're playing well together.

    This is because a good group doesn't hit you with one skill. They hit you with 10+ skills in the same place at the same time.

    So even if you increased ele health to 30k or 40k, an ele is still going to die in 1-2 seconds if they're out of position or don't use their defensives effectively.

    Acknowledging my bias, I personally prefer high stakes fast paced kill or be killed very low margin for error type gameplay. So for me the pacing of the fights is probably the best it's ever been and I've played through every meta since launch.

    I agree, but at the moment it's just too risky to make any aggressive movement because you'll just get rekt by two revs, making fights take unnecessary long time because zergs are kiting each other and trying to play it safe. The fact that the only playmaker (spellbreaker) got nerfed, makes current meta even more stale and boring. Pretty sure that even mesmers are dropping in numbers resulting even less organized plays and more reliance on creating random downs from hammers/meteors.

    If damage was 10-20% lower it would still be kill or be killed, but at least you'll have a bit more breathing room to push or make any movement to force a fight.

    Killing 3 people off the tag over and over again so you can finally push once enemy gets low on numbers isnt fun for everyone. That should be the job of ranged party/roamers, not the main blob.

    One easy change could also be very helpful in tuning down the heavy pirateship meta: reducing hammer rev range to 900 (and eventually shades to 600 on scourge).

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:
    One easy change could also be very helpful in tuning down the heavy pirateship meta: reducing hammer rev range to 900 (and eventually shades to 600 on scourge).

    I find this to be an interesting suggestion. I don't really like the idea of reducing the damage though I like where the damage is at right now.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    One easy change could also be very helpful in tuning down the heavy pirateship meta: reducing hammer rev range to 900 (and eventually shades to 600 on scourge).

    I find this to be an interesting suggestion. I don't really like the idea of reducing the damage though I like where the damage is at right now.

    It would just bring any potential ranged standoff closer. Instead of pirateshipping, you'd see a little more up and personal piratedinghing.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    It would just bring any potential ranged standoff closer. Instead of pirateshipping, you'd see a little more up and personal piratedinghing.

    So reduce revs to 600 and necros to 300?

    I think maybe they should just buff the damage on warrior melee weapon sets out of this world so a warrior full push kamikaze strat would be more viable. Earthshaker should probably hit at least as hard as CoR.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    One easy change could also be very helpful in tuning down the heavy pirateship meta: reducing hammer rev range to 900 (and eventually shades to 600 on scourge).

    I find this to be an interesting suggestion. I don't really like the idea of reducing the damage though I like where the damage is at right now.

    It would just bring any potential ranged standoff closer. Instead of pirateshipping, you'd see a little more up and personal piratedinghing.

    Maybe, but it would be within reach of most leaps of melee.

    And less room for error.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Celsith.2753 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Celsith.2753 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    glass cannons should be able to kill each other quickly but not from stealth with zero tells.

    Pistol 5 has a red circle on the ground, a bullet shooting and audio, there was a tell. A lot of those people in that video SHOULD have been aware that a thief was right there .. someone just got magically stomped in front of them apart from anything else.

    Yea and when the thief can stack stealth endlessly, when is the Attack going to come from the point we notice he is around?
    2 seconds later? 5 secs? 10 secs? 20 secs? And then wham you go down to a backstab.

    Most of the time I notice /shrug. When I don't it was my fault.

    oh wow so you can see the timing of an attack that comes from perma invis with zero tells...please teach me senpai

    Maybe a few weeks on thief would do you good?
    The initiative system dominates what can be done and when, there's a rhythm to thief than can (mostly) be predicted.

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019

    The suggestions I posted are the most logical things to have inside wvw and spvp... It would NOT be received well, like at all, by the players if the devs dropped nerf nukes on professions... Also, the devs can't run the risk of killing build diversity and gear choices either. The clear issue is damage output vs health, and THAT is by far the biggest elephant in the room.

    Some of you may have missed my earlier comments so I'm gonna repost it...

    "The idea came from 6 years of ongoing damage QQ, skill splits, global buff mechanics and the fact that CU will have the right approach to pvp combat... " we are not over fond of insta-gibbing. We want battles to be hard fought, with plenty of give and take. We will seek that sweet spot somewhere between ‘omg die already!’ and POOF insta-dead."...

    Also, for reference...
    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Upcoming-Changes-to-Skills

    “A message from the PvP Team:

    Hey all,

    We have a number of skill splits (and some global changes) that will be accompanying the launch of Season 5 next week. Read on to see what’s in store for December 13.

    Over the past few releases the PvP team has been working closely with the Skills team to implement some PvP-only skill splits. Moving forward the PvP team will have more opportunity to make these skill splits as we see fit. It’s important to understand that skill splits should not change the core functionality of a skill. Players should be able to use a skill in PvE and have it do relatively the same thing in PvP, though it may be more or less effective depending on the game mode. This means that when we are looking to split out a skill, the changes are limited to the following areas:
    • Recharge
    • Damage multipliers
    • Healing multipliers
    • Number of conditions/boons applied
    • Duration of conditions/boons applied
    • Skill cost (energy and initiative)

    A lot can be done with these knobs, but there still will be cases where we identify a problem skill or trait that we feel cannot be addressed without a functional change. In these cases, we are continuing to work closely with the Skills team to find a solution that makes the most sense as a global change.”

    "we are continuing to work closely with the Skills team to find a solution that makes the most sense as a global change."... And my suggestions make most sense given a ton of factors.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The suggestions I posted are the most logical things to have inside wvw and spvp... It would NOT be received well, like at all, by the players if the devs dropped nerf nukes on professions... Also, the devs can't run the risk of killing build diversity and gear choices either.

    They already killed diversity by nerfing spellbreaker bubble and mesmer's boon spam, making them even less needed than before. They were already balanced in sense that they provide big zone control but they dont do much damage. Currently we have same amount of boon spam (due to more heralds/renegades) but also a lot more damage since mentioned classes have huge spikes.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The suggestions I posted are the most logical things to have inside wvw and spvp... It would NOT be received well, like at all, by the players if the devs dropped nerf nukes on professions... Also, the devs can't run the risk of killing build diversity and gear choices either.

    They already killed diversity by nerfing spellbreaker bubble and mesmer's boon spam, making them even less needed than before. They were already balanced in sense that they provide big zone control but they dont do much damage. Currently we have same amount of boon spam (due to more heralds/renegades) but also a lot more damage since mentioned classes have huge spikes.

    I'm fully familiar with build diversity issues, but ty!

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    When you say increase time to kill exactly what is the time to kill now? What context are you basing this measurement on?

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Celsith.2753 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Celsith.2753 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    glass cannons should be able to kill each other quickly but not from stealth with zero tells.

    Pistol 5 has a red circle on the ground, a bullet shooting and audio, there was a tell. A lot of those people in that video SHOULD have been aware that a thief was right there .. someone just got magically stomped in front of them apart from anything else.

    Yea and when the thief can stack stealth endlessly, when is the Attack going to come from the point we notice he is around?
    2 seconds later? 5 secs? 10 secs? 20 secs? And then wham you go down to a backstab.

    Most of the time I notice /shrug. When I don't it was my fault.

    oh wow so you can see the timing of an attack that comes from perma invis with zero tells...please teach me senpai

    Again this is the issue, not the damage or the lack of explicit tell on backstab itself. Setting up the stealth for the backstab is the tell, because there are a lot of constraints and timers that affect when it's worthwhile to backstab, and there are a lot of opportunities available to negate the damage entirely when you understand those timings and resources better.

    I can usually go as far as dodging most thieves' steal casts because so much of the thief is predictable once you really learn it. I know I taught you the basics of beating thief once before, but that's only around half the full picture. The rest comes from playing one and truly learning it. There's a reason I think thief is the easiest matchup of all classes in the game, especially when I'm playing D/D thief, even despite D/D power being one of the weakest matchups into literally every other thief build due to its poor tools and inefficient damage/negation.

    Backstab is VERY predictable except in the case of the literal perma-stealth builds, because if they play properly around terrain colors/textures and ground LoS for BP where it'll distort the indicator, you literally will not know they're there at the start of the fight. Otherwise, if you see a BP+HS, you can almost guarantee backstab negation by some well-timed dodges and erratic constant movement during frequent backstab timings.

    To put this into Reaper perspective, if Infusing Terror gave damage immunity and pulsing 20 stacks of stability every .5s, your complaint about backstab is akin to someone then complaining about Soul Spiral dealing too much damage, despite the fact its actual value would be sourced from a combination of a wildly overtuned and over-reliable setup mechanisms (overpowered IT in this case being immune to damage and control) in conjunction with its reliability and potency sourced from Reaper's Onslaught (making it land more of its hits easier). Soul spiral or even really reaper in it of itself doesn't end up OP so much in that case as that combination of traits and how little skill would be involved to kill people/not die. It's less about the damage and speed of dealing damage as it is the defenses and tools that surround being able to deal that damage. Turns out permanent stealth is OP in a PvP game, especially on a class capable of and designed around bursting people down.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Chorazin.4107Chorazin.4107 Member ✭✭✭

    Well now there is no mesmer or SB it is double FB for most groups with Scourges and revs, maybe a vault spam thief and healbot tempest in that 15man. 6 FB's, 1 DD 1 Tempest, 2 Herald, 5 Scourge. In WvW you can drop the Thief for another Rev and sail away into the sunset with your eyepatch firing off 15k CoR's and Phase Smashes. Push with shades if you generate a few downs then retreat to pirate ship again.

    The backstab example for 18k is a bit off the mark, it is a: single target b: melee range. Yes it is too much damage from stealth but you can hit close to this on multiple targets from 1200rng with CoR and Phase Smash. I was excited back in the days before HoT to see a 6k Mighty Blow, now CoR's under 15k are like 'meh whatever'.

    [lion] - [tRex] - [nâh]

  • shiri.4257shiri.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chorazin.4107 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The camera shake...oh no, my eyes, ah god no my eyes! it burns, IT BURNS!!

    jk, yeah the damage right now is completely crazy, it's a spamfiesta, press 1 button and do more damage than classes have base health. I second a vanilla GW2 experience from just prior to HoT, it was by far one of the best balance periods there was.

    Haha, didnt realise you could turn camera shake off and turn down graphical effects.

    The gfycat shows how crazy the damage is at the moment, about 5 or 6 people auto down from the enemy group. One CoR I think hits for 16k, 12k, 10k on three different people, plus the usual 6k hits thrown in. It's like you need perma protection or you are going to insta die.

    camera shake adds 10% damage.

    Spectre [VII] - Wood League Champion. Making "fight guilds" stack on higher tiers since 2013.
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  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenoSpyro.1780 said:

    @Chorazin.4107 said:
    It was, in general, a better all round playing experience than what we currently have. Id be more interested in playing a 'vanilla' server, which is GW2 just prior to HoT release over what we currently have.

    I'm pretty sure this game wouldn't be nearly as disfunctional if they didn't change the traiting system and introduce Elites. I never got to experience the old system and I wish I was around to do so.

    Id be all over a vanilla variant of wvw... Wont ever happen in gw2 tho... Feelsbadbalancedman

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chorazin.4107 said:
    Well now there is no mesmer or SB it is double FB for most groups with Scourges and revs, maybe a vault spam thief and healbot tempest in that 15man. 6 FB's, 1 DD 1 Tempest, 2 Herald, 5 Scourge. In WvW you can drop the Thief for another Rev and sail away into the sunset with your eyepatch firing off 15k CoR's and Phase Smashes. Push with shades if you generate a few downs then retreat to pirate ship again.

    The backstab example for 18k is a bit off the mark, it is a: single target b: melee range. Yes it is too much damage from stealth but you can hit close to this on multiple targets from 1200rng with CoR and Phase Smash. I was excited back in the days before HoT to see a 6k Mighty Blow, now CoR's under 15k are like 'meh whatever'.

    Yes I don't think people have realised how homogenised WvW has become, I saw some people even saying heal scrapper was perfectly fine instead of a 2nd FB. That was a head scratcher as it does a worse job than a FB (ok it cleanses better) and gives superspeed yet revs can give 10 man SS.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    This whole thread seems kinda like a time waster, because no one will admit the elephant in the room - you can't hope to balance a PvP mode still using PvE gear and rules.

    Until WvW also uses the PvP system (I think Ascended infusions slots should still count so Ascended/Legendary isn't wasted in WvW and it's not that big a deal) I really don't see a chance to balance it or manage the TTK.

    @Celsith.2753 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    glass cannons should be able to kill each other quickly but not from stealth with zero tells.

    Pistol 5 has a red circle on the ground, a bullet shooting and audio, there was a tell. A lot of those people in that video SHOULD have been aware that a thief was right there .. someone just got magically stomped in front of them apart from anything else.

    That would imply these people knew how to play and had any situational awareness.

    Do not fear simplification of the game, there is elegance in simplicity that allows more time for playing and less time building.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    Well maybe if gear was normalized to exotic level we wouldn't have such a huge difference to PvP. Also food + utility is another culprit.

    WvW-wise , CoR damage still needs to be reduced in potency along with firebrand boon output and scourges' boon corrupt. Compare firebrand boon output to core guardian.

    I'm not really sure why elusive mind hasn't been hit on mirage , nor why deadeye has stealth on dodge but that's a different realm than this topic.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    I'm not really sure why elusive mind hasn't been hit on mirage

    Elusive mind has been nerfed to the point no sane mirage even use it. I dont really understand what you are saying.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    I'm not really sure why elusive mind hasn't been hit on mirage

    Elusive mind has been nerfed to the point no sane mirage even use it. I dont really understand what you are saying.

    The only Mirages still using it are the ones that don't read the patchnotes or tool tips. It's either Infinite Horizon, or back to Chrono. Sand Shards is trash.

    Do not fear simplification of the game, there is elegance in simplicity that allows more time for playing and less time building.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Chorazin.4107 said:
    Well now there is no mesmer or SB it is double FB for most groups with Scourges and revs, maybe a vault spam thief and healbot tempest in that 15man. 6 FB's, 1 DD 1 Tempest, 2 Herald, 5 Scourge. In WvW you can drop the Thief for another Rev and sail away into the sunset with your eyepatch firing off 15k CoR's and Phase Smashes. Push with shades if you generate a few downs then retreat to pirate ship again.

    The backstab example for 18k is a bit off the mark, it is a: single target b: melee range. Yes it is too much damage from stealth but you can hit close to this on multiple targets from 1200rng with CoR and Phase Smash. I was excited back in the days before HoT to see a 6k Mighty Blow, now CoR's under 15k are like 'meh whatever'.

    Yes I don't think people have realised how homogenised WvW has become, I saw some people even saying heal scrapper was perfectly fine instead of a 2nd FB. That was a head scratcher as it does a worse job than a FB (ok it cleanses better) and gives superspeed yet revs can give 10 man SS.

    This post is a head scratcher to me. The game is the most heterogeneous in terms of comps and individual builds that I think its ever been. Gwen meta was THE meta for years and it was a very restrictive meta as everyone was all running the same builds too. At least now there's a solid role for engis revs and mesmers and room for some build diversity. Sure there's not an unlimited number of things everyone can do but at least almost everyone has a role. I've even seen some videos of eu guilds using vault spam thieves. That's a massive improvement in my view it's just too bad no one seems to appreciate how much the game has improved in this respect.

    Like I get that some people don't like the pacing of the fights because thats subjective but in terms of heterogeneity I think it's objectively the best it's ever been.

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