Increasing TTK, Undoing Old Split Changes and Eliminating Skill Splitting - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Increasing TTK, Undoing Old Split Changes and Eliminating Skill Splitting

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  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    This whole thread seems kinda like a time waster, because no one will admit the elephant in the room - you can't hope to balance a PvP mode still using PvE gear and rules.

    Until WvW also uses the PvP system (I think Ascended infusions slots should still count so Ascended/Legendary isn't wasted in WvW and it's not that big a deal) I really don't see a chance to balance it or manage the TTK.

    @Celsith.2753 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    glass cannons should be able to kill each other quickly but not from stealth with zero tells.

    Pistol 5 has a red circle on the ground, a bullet shooting and audio, there was a tell. A lot of those people in that video SHOULD have been aware that a thief was right there .. someone just got magically stomped in front of them apart from anything else.

    That would imply these people knew how to play and had any situational awareness.

    +1 to this.

    The only real argument I see against it is that the sheer mass of players makes balance redundant, at which point why bother balance at all? (current state)

    I do think a massive lessening of stats would be a good start, but not the final solution. Even just putting something in place to reduce max number of stats to the same as pvp would be interesting. But would still need to reduce the amount of damage multipliers and sheer amount of defenses etc. Just too much of everything at this point.

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    Currently playing: Planescape Torment, Divinity Original Sin 2, Zelda BotW

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Chorazin.4107 said:
    Well now there is no mesmer or SB it is double FB for most groups with Scourges and revs, maybe a vault spam thief and healbot tempest in that 15man. 6 FB's, 1 DD 1 Tempest, 2 Herald, 5 Scourge. In WvW you can drop the Thief for another Rev and sail away into the sunset with your eyepatch firing off 15k CoR's and Phase Smashes. Push with shades if you generate a few downs then retreat to pirate ship again.

    The backstab example for 18k is a bit off the mark, it is a: single target b: melee range. Yes it is too much damage from stealth but you can hit close to this on multiple targets from 1200rng with CoR and Phase Smash. I was excited back in the days before HoT to see a 6k Mighty Blow, now CoR's under 15k are like 'meh whatever'.

    Yes I don't think people have realised how homogenised WvW has become, I saw some people even saying heal scrapper was perfectly fine instead of a 2nd FB. That was a head scratcher as it does a worse job than a FB (ok it cleanses better) and gives superspeed yet revs can give 10 man SS.

    This post is a head scratcher to me. The game is the most heterogeneous in terms of comps and individual builds that I think its ever been. Gwen meta was THE meta for years and it was a very restrictive meta as everyone was all running the same builds too. At least now there's a solid role for engis revs and mesmers and room for some build diversity. Sure there's not an unlimited number of things everyone can do but at least almost everyone has a role. I've even seen some videos of eu guilds using vault spam thieves. That's a massive improvement in my view it's just too bad no one seems to appreciate how much the game has improved in this respect.

    Like I get that some people don't like the pacing of the fights because thats subjective but in terms of heterogeneity I think it's objectively the best it's ever been.

    Before HoT you had GWEN, Guardians, Warriors, Elementalists and Necros but you also had an FP of mesmers and thieves, that's 6 classes out of 8 in regular use.

    After HoT we got the FP removed because of melee ball and pirate ship and how everyone had permanent boons, we lost thieves in this time and warriors as thieves couldn't take the damage of a melee ball and warriors had the healing on shouts nerfed while also being inferior to a heal ele. We gained revs at different time periods in different builds, sometimes healer, mostly high spike damage. Chrono was used for boon spam though. We went from 6/8 to 5/9.

    PoF rolled around and for much of the beginning it was actually 3/9 classes, FB, Scourge and Spellbreaker because of how overtuned tomes, shades and WoD were. After we've had some nerfs we've seen revs join the fray again but we're starting to see spellbreakers dropping off, it's better to corrupt/boon strip with necros and nuke with revs. Occasionally you see some weavers (we saw a lot when meteor was doing 14k+ to minstrels) but the cast time on their skills, AoE nature and mobility of the enemy reduce it's effectiveness. Chrono you see 1-3 for veil and focus pull, thieves are a rarity outside of structured GvG, same for rangers and engineers.

    You mostly see Firebrands, Scourges, Revs, and a few Chronos now, we're at 4/9 and the chrono's are arguably not needed. It is becoming more homogenised.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    This whole thread seems kinda like a time waster, because no one will admit the elephant in the room - you can't hope to balance a PvP mode still using PvE gear and rules.

    Until WvW also uses the PvP system (I think Ascended infusions slots should still count so Ascended/Legendary isn't wasted in WvW and it's not that big a deal) I really don't see a chance to balance it or manage the TTK.

    @Celsith.2753 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    glass cannons should be able to kill each other quickly but not from stealth with zero tells.

    Pistol 5 has a red circle on the ground, a bullet shooting and audio, there was a tell. A lot of those people in that video SHOULD have been aware that a thief was right there .. someone just got magically stomped in front of them apart from anything else.

    That would imply these people knew how to play and had any situational awareness.

    +1 to this.

    The only real argument I see against it is that the sheer mass of players makes balance redundant, at which point why bother balance at all? (current state)

    I do think a massive lessening of stats would be a good start, but not the final solution. Even just putting something in place to reduce max number of stats to the same as pvp would be interesting. But would still need to reduce the amount of damage multipliers and sheer amount of defenses etc. Just too much of everything at this point.

    The devs are not going to blow up the current gear system and drop in the spvp system period. It will never happen. The devs aren't going to screw over players who have spent time and resources making gear... That thinking would make ALL gear made by players obsolete inside wvw... and ya wanna talk about backlash... Yeah, not gonna happen....

    I wanna be clear about some stuff...

    Damage vastly outweighs player health and healing sources... Logically, the first step would be to increase health in pvp modes. The answer isn't "nerf gear" or "nerf XYZ" or "nerf professions to the ground"... especially when the goal is to grow the mode, not generate even greater resentment from players...

    Also, CU will have...

    • https://camelotunchained.com/v3/bsc-design-docs/rvr-map/

    • Renée Machyousky (answering the question about TTK - time to kill): "This is a rather loaded question and a lot factors into this. For instance, clearly some characters will be far more vulnerable (lower HP and resists) than others. I can at least say this, we are not over fond of insta-gibbing. We want battles to be hard fought, with plenty of give and take."

    • The design goals for this Stretch Goal can be summarized below:
      Goal #1 – Design a fun, interesting stealth mechanic, and classes that are not seen as “Easy Mode” by non-stealthers.
      Goal #2 - Do not design a class that is centered around a strong opener, stun, and vanish with long/unlimited stealth, nor a class that can hide, one-shot, vanish again.
      Goal #3 – Design a class that has the ability to be very active and sought-after, either in RvR groups or as roamers.
      Goal #4 – Design a class that some non-traditional Stealthers want to play.
      Goal #5 – Design a class that requires skill to play well, and not just unlimited patience.
      Goal #6 – Design a system where a gank group of Stealthers is not possible.

    • 31 Unique classes with tons of skills and roles to play.

    • https://massivelyop.com/2019/01/28/camelot-unchaineds-latest-battlefield-test-included-nearly-3000-players-and-bots-surpassing-kickstarter-promise/

    ...So the very last things that Anet will do is nerf the carp out of this mode and profession for this mode, because they know it will kill this mode. GW2 WvW drew inspiration from DAoC, and CU will be 100x better than DAoC and GW2 WvW in its current state... MJ also played GW2, among other games, and will obviously take good things and improve on them, making RvR gameplay that much better... Again, Anet will not go nuking stuff normally, and especially now when this wvw mode needs all the buffing it can get and you have a super RvR game coming around the bend...

    Gotta look at the bigger pictures peeps...

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Chorazin.4107 said:
    Well now there is no mesmer or SB it is double FB for most groups with Scourges and revs, maybe a vault spam thief and healbot tempest in that 15man. 6 FB's, 1 DD 1 Tempest, 2 Herald, 5 Scourge. In WvW you can drop the Thief for another Rev and sail away into the sunset with your eyepatch firing off 15k CoR's and Phase Smashes. Push with shades if you generate a few downs then retreat to pirate ship again.

    The backstab example for 18k is a bit off the mark, it is a: single target b: melee range. Yes it is too much damage from stealth but you can hit close to this on multiple targets from 1200rng with CoR and Phase Smash. I was excited back in the days before HoT to see a 6k Mighty Blow, now CoR's under 15k are like 'meh whatever'.

    Yes I don't think people have realised how homogenised WvW has become, I saw some people even saying heal scrapper was perfectly fine instead of a 2nd FB. That was a head scratcher as it does a worse job than a FB (ok it cleanses better) and gives superspeed yet revs can give 10 man SS.

    This post is a head scratcher to me. The game is the most heterogeneous in terms of comps and individual builds that I think its ever been. Gwen meta was THE meta for years and it was a very restrictive meta as everyone was all running the same builds too. At least now there's a solid role for engis revs and mesmers and room for some build diversity. Sure there's not an unlimited number of things everyone can do but at least almost everyone has a role. I've even seen some videos of eu guilds using vault spam thieves. That's a massive improvement in my view it's just too bad no one seems to appreciate how much the game has improved in this respect.

    Like I get that some people don't like the pacing of the fights because thats subjective but in terms of heterogeneity I think it's objectively the best it's ever been.

    Before HoT you had GWEN, Guardians, Warriors, Elementalists and Necros but you also had an FP of mesmers and thieves, that's 6 classes out of 8 in regular use.

    After HoT we got the FP removed because of melee ball and pirate ship and how everyone had permanent boons, we lost thieves in this time and warriors as thieves couldn't take the damage of a melee ball and warriors had the healing on shouts nerfed while also being inferior to a heal ele. We gained revs at different time periods in different builds, sometimes healer, mostly high spike damage. Chrono was used for boon spam though. We went from 6/8 to 5/9.

    PoF rolled around and for much of the beginning it was actually 3/9 classes, FB, Scourge and Spellbreaker because of how overtuned tomes, shades and WoD were. After we've had some nerfs we've seen revs join the fray again but we're starting to see spellbreakers dropping off, it's better to corrupt/boon strip with necros and nuke with revs. Occasionally you see some weavers (we saw a lot when meteor was doing 14k+ to minstrels) but the cast time on their skills, AoE nature and mobility of the enemy reduce it's effectiveness. Chrono you see 1-3 for veil and focus pull, thieves are a rarity outside of structured GvG, same for rangers and engineers.

    You mostly see Firebrands, Scourges, Revs, and a few Chronos now, we're at 4/9 and the chrono's are arguably not needed. It is becoming more homogenised.

    I guess it depends on playstyle but I think chrono and engi are mandatory and I like weavers for the damage although it's a high risk class to play for sure.

    In my view we are at least at 5/9 mandatory with weavers and spellbreakers as strong supplemental choices depending on how you want to play. Yeah you could run just guard necro and rev but youd lose so much utility and sustain dropping chrono and engi i dont think it would be worth it.

    The pacing of the fights is also excellent imo a lot of fights are over in seconds, one mistake can get you wiped fairly easily. I've always thought the sustain train stuff was pretty boring I like the rhythm of the game more now.

    Ez stab was a crutch for a lot of guilds for a long time I think that's a big reason why some people miss the old days so much.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Chorazin.4107 said:
    Well now there is no mesmer or SB it is double FB for most groups with Scourges and revs, maybe a vault spam thief and healbot tempest in that 15man. 6 FB's, 1 DD 1 Tempest, 2 Herald, 5 Scourge. In WvW you can drop the Thief for another Rev and sail away into the sunset with your eyepatch firing off 15k CoR's and Phase Smashes. Push with shades if you generate a few downs then retreat to pirate ship again.

    The backstab example for 18k is a bit off the mark, it is a: single target b: melee range. Yes it is too much damage from stealth but you can hit close to this on multiple targets from 1200rng with CoR and Phase Smash. I was excited back in the days before HoT to see a 6k Mighty Blow, now CoR's under 15k are like 'meh whatever'.

    Yes I don't think people have realised how homogenised WvW has become, I saw some people even saying heal scrapper was perfectly fine instead of a 2nd FB. That was a head scratcher as it does a worse job than a FB (ok it cleanses better) and gives superspeed yet revs can give 10 man SS.

    This post is a head scratcher to me. The game is the most heterogeneous in terms of comps and individual builds that I think its ever been. Gwen meta was THE meta for years and it was a very restrictive meta as everyone was all running the same builds too. At least now there's a solid role for engis revs and mesmers and room for some build diversity. Sure there's not an unlimited number of things everyone can do but at least almost everyone has a role. I've even seen some videos of eu guilds using vault spam thieves. That's a massive improvement in my view it's just too bad no one seems to appreciate how much the game has improved in this respect.

    Like I get that some people don't like the pacing of the fights because thats subjective but in terms of heterogeneity I think it's objectively the best it's ever been.

    Before HoT you had GWEN, Guardians, Warriors, Elementalists and Necros but you also had an FP of mesmers and thieves, that's 6 classes out of 8 in regular use.

    After HoT we got the FP removed because of melee ball and pirate ship and how everyone had permanent boons, we lost thieves in this time and warriors as thieves couldn't take the damage of a melee ball and warriors had the healing on shouts nerfed while also being inferior to a heal ele. We gained revs at different time periods in different builds, sometimes healer, mostly high spike damage. Chrono was used for boon spam though. We went from 6/8 to 5/9.

    PoF rolled around and for much of the beginning it was actually 3/9 classes, FB, Scourge and Spellbreaker because of how overtuned tomes, shades and WoD were. After we've had some nerfs we've seen revs join the fray again but we're starting to see spellbreakers dropping off, it's better to corrupt/boon strip with necros and nuke with revs. Occasionally you see some weavers (we saw a lot when meteor was doing 14k+ to minstrels) but the cast time on their skills, AoE nature and mobility of the enemy reduce it's effectiveness. Chrono you see 1-3 for veil and focus pull, thieves are a rarity outside of structured GvG, same for rangers and engineers.

    You mostly see Firebrands, Scourges, Revs, and a few Chronos now, we're at 4/9 and the chrono's are arguably not needed. It is becoming more homogenised.

    I guess it depends on playstyle but I think chrono and engi are mandatory and I like weavers for the damage although it's a high risk class to play for sure.

    In my view we are at least at 5/9 mandatory with weavers and spellbreakers as strong supplemental choices depending on how you want to play. Yeah you could run just guard necro and rev but youd lose so much utility and sustain dropping chrono and engi i dont think it would be worth it.

    The pacing of the fights is also excellent imo a lot of fights are over in seconds, one mistake can get you wiped fairly easily. I've always thought the sustain train stuff was pretty boring I like the rhythm of the game more now.

    Ez stab was a crutch for a lot of guilds for a long time I think that's a big reason why some people miss the old days so much.

    Name it, name the utility and sustain engy and chrono bring over replacing any of the rev, scourge or FB?

    2xFB will apply most boons when removed or corrupted, Chrono brings almost no boons anymore and is used for CC now. Engy brings boon spam and superspeed but has poor stab and stunbreak capability for allies which FB brings + a lot of sustain. Rev brings superspeed for 10 people as well as sustained might and fury and can bring stab, 50% damage reduction or resistance if needed.

    Edit: Also I laughed at the EZ stab being a crutch, FB brought more stab and stab spam.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Chorazin.4107 said:
    Well now there is no mesmer or SB it is double FB for most groups with Scourges and revs, maybe a vault spam thief and healbot tempest in that 15man. 6 FB's, 1 DD 1 Tempest, 2 Herald, 5 Scourge. In WvW you can drop the Thief for another Rev and sail away into the sunset with your eyepatch firing off 15k CoR's and Phase Smashes. Push with shades if you generate a few downs then retreat to pirate ship again.

    The backstab example for 18k is a bit off the mark, it is a: single target b: melee range. Yes it is too much damage from stealth but you can hit close to this on multiple targets from 1200rng with CoR and Phase Smash. I was excited back in the days before HoT to see a 6k Mighty Blow, now CoR's under 15k are like 'meh whatever'.

    Yes I don't think people have realised how homogenised WvW has become, I saw some people even saying heal scrapper was perfectly fine instead of a 2nd FB. That was a head scratcher as it does a worse job than a FB (ok it cleanses better) and gives superspeed yet revs can give 10 man SS.

    This post is a head scratcher to me. The game is the most heterogeneous in terms of comps and individual builds that I think its ever been. Gwen meta was THE meta for years and it was a very restrictive meta as everyone was all running the same builds too. At least now there's a solid role for engis revs and mesmers and room for some build diversity. Sure there's not an unlimited number of things everyone can do but at least almost everyone has a role. I've even seen some videos of eu guilds using vault spam thieves. That's a massive improvement in my view it's just too bad no one seems to appreciate how much the game has improved in this respect.

    Like I get that some people don't like the pacing of the fights because thats subjective but in terms of heterogeneity I think it's objectively the best it's ever been.

    Before HoT you had GWEN, Guardians, Warriors, Elementalists and Necros but you also had an FP of mesmers and thieves, that's 6 classes out of 8 in regular use.

    After HoT we got the FP removed because of melee ball and pirate ship and how everyone had permanent boons, we lost thieves in this time and warriors as thieves couldn't take the damage of a melee ball and warriors had the healing on shouts nerfed while also being inferior to a heal ele. We gained revs at different time periods in different builds, sometimes healer, mostly high spike damage. Chrono was used for boon spam though. We went from 6/8 to 5/9.

    PoF rolled around and for much of the beginning it was actually 3/9 classes, FB, Scourge and Spellbreaker because of how overtuned tomes, shades and WoD were. After we've had some nerfs we've seen revs join the fray again but we're starting to see spellbreakers dropping off, it's better to corrupt/boon strip with necros and nuke with revs. Occasionally you see some weavers (we saw a lot when meteor was doing 14k+ to minstrels) but the cast time on their skills, AoE nature and mobility of the enemy reduce it's effectiveness. Chrono you see 1-3 for veil and focus pull, thieves are a rarity outside of structured GvG, same for rangers and engineers.

    You mostly see Firebrands, Scourges, Revs, and a few Chronos now, we're at 4/9 and the chrono's are arguably not needed. It is becoming more homogenised.

    I guess it depends on playstyle but I think chrono and engi are mandatory and I like weavers for the damage although it's a high risk class to play for sure.

    In my view we are at least at 5/9 mandatory with weavers and spellbreakers as strong supplemental choices depending on how you want to play. Yeah you could run just guard necro and rev but youd lose so much utility and sustain dropping chrono and engi i dont think it would be worth it.

    The pacing of the fights is also excellent imo a lot of fights are over in seconds, one mistake can get you wiped fairly easily. I've always thought the sustain train stuff was pretty boring I like the rhythm of the game more now.

    Ez stab was a crutch for a lot of guilds for a long time I think that's a big reason why some people miss the old days so much.

    Name it, name the utility and sustain engy and chrono bring over replacing any of the rev, scourge or FB?

    2xFB will apply most boons when removed or corrupted, Chrono brings almost no boons anymore and is used for CC now. Engy brings boon spam and superspeed but has poor stab and stunbreak capability for allies which FB brings + a lot of sustain. Rev brings superspeed for 10 people as well as sustained might and fury and can bring stab, 50% damage reduction or resistance if needed.

    Edit: Also I laughed at the EZ stab being a crutch, FB brought more stab and stab spam.

    If you don't already know what im talking about I'm not going to tell you how to make chrono and engi work properly. I see a lot of guilds behind the curve on this one so you and your guild need to work together to figure it out. I think once you figure it out you will agree that chrono and engi are mandatory.

    You don't even seem to remember how stab used to work how long have you been playing?

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The devs are not going to blow up the current gear system and drop in the spvp system period. It will never happen. The devs aren't going to screw over players who have spent time and resources making gear... That thinking would make ALL gear made by players obsolete inside wvw... and ya wanna talk about backlash... Yeah, not gonna happen....

    I guess I'll answer you then.

    If you read what I wrote, then I talked as much about a way to just reduce total amount of stats in WvW. Keeping the same gear and variety as we have, but just have the gear give less stats in wvw.

    Basically cap max stat number at something similar to PvP, to normalize it (which would largely make ascended a bit worthless, which is why Kylden suggested keeping infusions, which still makes them better). So it wouldn't make anything any more obsolete than any level scaling already does in the game, nor make it as obsolete as PVP does.

    And I do not see any problems with that, after all the game already does negate your gear in PVP completely, and we're not even talking remotely about something that severe here. And ANet has from the very start of GW2 and still is dedicated to keeping gearing such a minor aspect that it shouldn't affect the outcome of most fights. So it would also be completely within their design philosophy to do so.

    If ANet is going to do something about it or not, that is up to them to decide, as always. They do however already have the system in place to do just this (WvW up-scales underleveled players, the same system could be used to downscale other things as well, like gear).


    Anyways....

    Damage vastly outweighs player health and healing sources... Logically, the first step would be to increase health in pvp modes. The answer isn't "nerf gear" or "nerf XYZ" or "nerf professions to the ground"... especially when the goal is to grow the mode, not generate even greater resentment from players...

    The "logical" step, would be to start culling in Damage modifiers if the damage is too high.

    The health system in the game worked well at launch and for many years, the problem has come later on, with expansions and powercreep. So the most natural and logical thing to do is look at those first.

    But in order to reduce the damage modifiers we also have to reduce the sheer amount of defenses that has been put into the game (another powercreep), or we won't be able to hurt people.

    Do people hate nerfs? Sure, but people also hate a game they can't get into because they don't have time/opportunity to actually see what happened to them, or even spot what mistakes they did.

    Reducing both damage multipliers and amount of defenses would get closer to how the game balance worked at launch, where you had time to try a few things before you died, and at least see what you did wrong. For example activating Shelter at the wrong time so you don't get to use the block to negate the enemy burst.

    As many others have stated better than I can in this very thread.


    Anyways, enjoy CU !

    I do think WvW is a lost cause for GW2, more to the fact that ANet seems to get so much more cash out of PVE that it isn't economically viable for them to bother much with WvW. I think they keep it up more out of the goodness of their heart, for the few that still loves it, than anything else.

    Enjoy WvW for what it is while it's here, realize the fact that this game will never become pvp focused, that ship sailed 2015 when they stopped balancing classes for PvP but instead started balancing for PvE/Raids.


    Edit: Just to say, I'm all for replacing entire gearing in WvW AND PvE with the PvP system! leveling and gearing is the most boring aspect of this game!

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    Currently playing: Planescape Torment, Divinity Original Sin 2, Zelda BotW

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2019

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The devs are not going to blow up the current gear system and drop in the spvp system period. It will never happen. The devs aren't going to screw over players who have spent time and resources making gear... That thinking would make ALL gear made by players obsolete inside wvw... and ya wanna talk about backlash... Yeah, not gonna happen....

    I guess I'll answer you then.

    If you read what I wrote, then I talked as much about a way to just reduce total amount of stats in WvW. Keeping the same gear and variety as we have, but just have the gear give less stats in wvw.

    Basically cap max stat number at something similar to PvP, to normalize it (which would largely make ascended a bit worthless, which is why Kylden suggested keeping infusions, which still makes them better). So it wouldn't make anything any more obsolete than any level scaling already does in the game, nor make it as obsolete as PVP does.

    And I do not see any problems with that, after all the game already does negate your gear in PVP completely, and we're not even talking remotely about something that severe here. And ANet has from the very start of GW2 and still is dedicated to keeping gearing such a minor aspect that it shouldn't affect the outcome of most fights. So it would also be completely within their design philosophy to do so.

    If ANet is going to do something about it or not, that is up to them to decide, as always. They do however already have the system in place to do just this (WvW up-scales underleveled players, the same system could be used to downscale other things as well, like gear).


    Anyways....

    Damage vastly outweighs player health and healing sources... Logically, the first step would be to increase health in pvp modes. The answer isn't "nerf gear" or "nerf XYZ" or "nerf professions to the ground"... especially when the goal is to grow the mode, not generate even greater resentment from players...

    The "logical" step, would be to start culling in Damage modifiers if the damage is too high.

    The health system in the game worked well at launch and for many years, the problem has come later on, with expansions and powercreep. So the most natural and logical thing to do is look at those first.

    But in order to reduce the damage modifiers we also have to reduce the sheer amount of defenses that has been put into the game (another powercreep), or we won't be able to hurt people.

    Do people hate nerfs? Sure, but people also hate a game they can't get into because they don't have time/opportunity to actually see what happened to them, or even spot what mistakes they did.

    Reducing both damage multipliers and amount of defenses would get closer to how the game balance worked at launch, where you had time to try a few things before you died, and at least see what you did wrong. For example activating Shelter at the wrong time so you don't get to use the block to negate the enemy burst.

    As many others have stated better than I can in this very thread.


    Anyways, enjoy CU !

    I do think WvW is a lost cause for GW2, more to the fact that ANet seems to get so much more cash out of PVE that it isn't economically viable for them to bother much with WvW. I think they keep it up more out of the goodness of their heart, for the few that still loves it, than anything else.

    Enjoy WvW for what it is while it's here, realize the fact that this game will never become pvp focused, that ship sailed 2015 when they stopped balancing classes for PvP but instead started balancing for PvE/Raids.


    Edit: Just to say, I'm all for replacing entire gearing in WvW AND PvE with the PvP system! leveling and gearing is the most boring aspect of this game!

    Just to clarify, my post was tailored for you and the other poster.

    Trust me, most players do not want gutting of their classes, builds or gear. That's not going to go over well for this mode, especially in its current state. Arenanet is not going to attract players to the mode by changes some of you are suggestion or want, and all they will do is miff off a bunch of players in the process.

    I'm gonna hilight a few things from the suggestion because it seems many only focus on the health portion...

    • Increase base Health of professions. 30k for Ele, Guard and Thief. 35k for Engi, Mes, Ranger and Rev. 40k for Necro and War.
    • Increase numbers on personal heal skills and HP modifiers on personal heal skills.
    • Decrease all weapon and slot skill cool-downs by 50% to help maintain the fast paced skill decision making combat.
    • Reduce critical hit modifiers by 25%.
    • Double the health and damage output of NPC sentries, guards and lords.
    • Increase siege damage on players by 25%."
    • Gear isn’t devalued at all. Players can still choose to use high damage builds.
    • Damage output by an individual build set up that seems “broken” now, will not seem so “broken” after... Massive 1 hit and multi-hit bursts become more manageable for the player on the receiving end because they are given time to react and fight back.
    • Having higher health numbers provides a “safety net” for both devs and players during the time it takes to address or fix things that are found to be “broken”.

    This isn't just about me, CU will be attractive to pvp minded players... That potentially means wvw will take population hits.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    sigh

    No one ever want to see their own class gutted, but this will just continue powercreep. And frankly I don't see how this will attract more players either, it's just going to be a spam fest. This is just throwing more numbers at the problem, and hope it goes away.

    So:

    • +20 000 health to all classes
    • for ex: +100% extra healing on all sources of healing.
    • 1-0 -50% cooldown
    • -25% base crit (so start at -20%?)

    Considering we can build around the hit to crits, the 50% CD reduction is going to mean we can spam all the damaging skills, some classes/weapons doesn't even need to use AA's anylonger. This is practically a +100% damage increase. with a +100% healing increase, and a +100% health increase for warrior, and +200% health increase for guardian.

    It will be very close to having almost 0% impact on a warrior, while for all practical effects giving Guardian some extra hitpoints. While at the same time allows for some crazy defenses, because every single defensive skill is now on -50% cooldown, so double the amount.

    You could honestly achieve the exact same effect by simply reducing all damage modifiers in the game with -5% ?


    I'd prefer to go the other way, increase the cooldown on everything, so they're much more important when you use them. Neuter Ferocity hard, and remove/reduce a bunch of the damage modifiers, since most of the defensive skills will have double the cooldown you won't need as much damage to break through the windows of opening.


    But completely aside from that, if you have any belief that this game will ever become a competitive PVP game, I'd recommend you to reconsider right away. ANet isn't going to even try, it doesn't make them money.

    And honestly with the alliance system coming, WvW can take a population hit and still work.... unlike the world system. So who knows, perhaps that's the main reason they're working on it, because it means they can stuff WvW into "ignore mode" for good ? (Wouldn't be a bad idea from their perspective).

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    Currently playing: Planescape Torment, Divinity Original Sin 2, Zelda BotW

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2019

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    sigh

    No one ever want to see their own class gutted, but this will just continue powercreep. And frankly I don't see how this will attract more players either, it's just going to be a spam fest. This is just throwing more numbers at the problem, and hope it goes away.

    So:

    • +20 000 health to all classes
    • for ex: +100% extra healing on all sources of healing.
    • 1-0 -50% cooldown
    • -25% base crit (so start at -20%?)

    Considering we can build around the hit to crits, the 50% CD reduction is going to mean we can spam all the damaging skills, some classes/weapons doesn't even need to use AA's anylonger. This is practically a +100% damage increase. with a +100% healing increase, and a +100% health increase for warrior, and +200% health increase for guardian.

    It will be very close to having almost 0% impact on a warrior, while for all practical effects giving Guardian some extra hitpoints. While at the same time allows for some crazy defenses, because every single defensive skill is now on -50% cooldown, so double the amount.

    You could honestly achieve the exact same effect by simply reducing all damage modifiers in the game with -5% ?


    I'd prefer to go the other way, increase the cooldown on everything, so they're much more important when you use them. Neuter Ferocity hard, and remove/reduce a bunch of the damage modifiers, since most of the defensive skills will have double the cooldown you won't need as much damage to break through the windows of opening.


    But completely aside from that, if you have any belief that this game will ever become a competitive PVP game, I'd recommend you to reconsider right away. ANet isn't going to even try, it doesn't make them money.

    And honestly with the alliance system coming, WvW can take a population hit and still work.... unlike the world system. So who knows, perhaps that's the main reason they're working on it, because it means they can stuff WvW into "ignore mode" for good ? (Wouldn't be a bad idea from their perspective).

    Sigh nothing... Some of you want to gut our "open world" rvr mode and make it a glorified structured pvp mode... That's not what rvr is about, and certainly not what we signed up to play, stuck with and for some of us.. spent years building up gear for… If some of you peeps want structure and heavy hands of the devs in control then spvp exists for those reasons.

    I'm not trying to make pvp in this game competitive, I'm trying to make it more about fun, with more balance and not stale like it's been for years... Small case in point...

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62658/alliance-design-that-stops-the-qq

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62555/putting-fun-back-into-designs-and-balancing

    Edit- And to simplify... Some of you want to keep doing similar things the devs have done for years with WvW and Spvp... and they didn’t work out so well. Time to change the formula and do something different.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    sigh

    No one ever want to see their own class gutted, but this will just continue powercreep. And frankly I don't see how this will attract more players either, it's just going to be a spam fest. This is just throwing more numbers at the problem, and hope it goes away.

    So:

    • +20 000 health to all classes
    • for ex: +100% extra healing on all sources of healing.
    • 1-0 -50% cooldown
    • -25% base crit (so start at -20%?)

    Considering we can build around the hit to crits, the 50% CD reduction is going to mean we can spam all the damaging skills, some classes/weapons doesn't even need to use AA's anylonger. This is practically a +100% damage increase. with a +100% healing increase, and a +100% health increase for warrior, and +200% health increase for guardian.

    It will be very close to having almost 0% impact on a warrior, while for all practical effects giving Guardian some extra hitpoints. While at the same time allows for some crazy defenses, because every single defensive skill is now on -50% cooldown, so double the amount.

    You could honestly achieve the exact same effect by simply reducing all damage modifiers in the game with -5% ?


    I'd prefer to go the other way, increase the cooldown on everything, so they're much more important when you use them. Neuter Ferocity hard, and remove/reduce a bunch of the damage modifiers, since most of the defensive skills will have double the cooldown you won't need as much damage to break through the windows of opening.


    But completely aside from that, if you have any belief that this game will ever become a competitive PVP game, I'd recommend you to reconsider right away. ANet isn't going to even try, it doesn't make them money.

    And honestly with the alliance system coming, WvW can take a population hit and still work.... unlike the world system. So who knows, perhaps that's the main reason they're working on it, because it means they can stuff WvW into "ignore mode" for good ? (Wouldn't be a bad idea from their perspective).

    Sigh nothing... Some of you want to gut our "open world" rvr mode and make it a glorified structured pvp mode... That's not what rvr is about, and certainly not what we signed up to play, stuck with and for some of us.. spent years building up gear for… If some of you peeps want structure and heavy hands of the devs in control then spvp exists for those reasons.

    I'm not trying to make pvp in this game competitive, I'm trying to make it more about fun, with more balance and not stale like it's been for years... Small case in point...

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62658/alliance-design-that-stops-the-qq

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62555/putting-fun-back-into-designs-and-balancing

    Edit- And to simplify... Some of you want to keep doing similar things the devs have done for years with WvW and Spvp... and they didn’t work out so well. Time to change the formula and do something different.

    I didn't even mention gear one time in that post.

    Nor did I mention sPvP.

    And WvW/RvR is frankly speaking, open ended game-play, how you play and enjoy it is entirely up to each individual, so we never really signed up to play a specific way now did we ?

    "Fun" is subjective, and from what I've read of your idea so far, your idea of fun seems to be to spam lots of buttons ? Well that isn't my kind of fun. Also, for many players competitive = fun, so not trying to make it competitive also means making it non-fun for some players.

    I mean, what do you think would happen to CU is they released and the RvR mode wasn't competitive ? I'm pretty sure that would flop hard.

    I'm not even suggesting "structure and hands of the devs in control" in that entire post, the only think I'm saying is that your balance suggestion is going to take combat in a different direction that you probably hoped for, and likely remove most remaining tactics in the game in favor of spam.


    Just a quick glance at warrior with -50% cd reduction for skills 1-0. With trait for stances and shield:

    • 3 sec block on shield 5, 10sec cd.
    • 5 sec absorb/all incoming attacks heal you, Defiant Stance on 15 sec cd.
    • 2,5 sec invuln, Endure Pain, 15 sec cd (And the freebie trait one remains at 90sec cd since trait)

    That's 10,5 seconds of various ways to stop damage on slightly under 15sec average cd. + random proc trait. On a warrior that will have 40k health just from base numbers, and heal twice as much (inside the defense rotation even).


    That said, I'm all for a test week with these modifications! It would be lots of fun, @ANet do it!

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    Currently playing: Planescape Torment, Divinity Original Sin 2, Zelda BotW

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2019

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    This whole thread seems kinda like a time waster, because no one will admit the elephant in the room - you can't hope to balance a PvP mode still using PvE gear and rules.

    Until WvW also uses the PvP system (I think Ascended infusions slots should still count so Ascended/Legendary isn't wasted in WvW and it's not that big a deal) I really don't see a chance to balance it or manage the TTK.

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    +1 to this.

    The only real argument I see against it is that the sheer mass of players makes balance redundant, at which point why bother balance at all? (current state)

    I do think a massive lessening of stats would be a good start, but not the final solution. Even just putting something in place to reduce max number of stats to the same as pvp would be interesting. But would still need to reduce the amount of damage multipliers and sheer amount of defenses etc. Just too much of everything at this point.

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    sigh

    No one ever want to see their own class gutted, but this will just continue powercreep. And frankly I don't see how this will attract more players either, it's just going to be a spam fest. This is just throwing more numbers at the problem, and hope it goes away.

    So:

    • +20 000 health to all classes
    • for ex: +100% extra healing on all sources of healing.
    • 1-0 -50% cooldown
    • -25% base crit (so start at -20%?)

    Considering we can build around the hit to crits, the 50% CD reduction is going to mean we can spam all the damaging skills, some classes/weapons doesn't even need to use AA's anylonger. This is practically a +100% damage increase. with a +100% healing increase, and a +100% health increase for warrior, and +200% health increase for guardian.

    It will be very close to having almost 0% impact on a warrior, while for all practical effects giving Guardian some extra hitpoints. While at the same time allows for some crazy defenses, because every single defensive skill is now on -50% cooldown, so double the amount.

    You could honestly achieve the exact same effect by simply reducing all damage modifiers in the game with -5% ?


    I'd prefer to go the other way, increase the cooldown on everything, so they're much more important when you use them. Neuter Ferocity hard, and remove/reduce a bunch of the damage modifiers, since most of the defensive skills will have double the cooldown you won't need as much damage to break through the windows of opening.


    But completely aside from that, if you have any belief that this game will ever become a competitive PVP game, I'd recommend you to reconsider right away. ANet isn't going to even try, it doesn't make them money.

    And honestly with the alliance system coming, WvW can take a population hit and still work.... unlike the world system. So who knows, perhaps that's the main reason they're working on it, because it means they can stuff WvW into "ignore mode" for good ? (Wouldn't be a bad idea from their perspective).

    Sigh nothing... Some of you want to gut our "open world" rvr mode and make it a glorified structured pvp mode... That's not what rvr is about, and certainly not what we signed up to play, stuck with and for some of us.. spent years building up gear for… If some of you peeps want structure and heavy hands of the devs in control then spvp exists for those reasons.

    I'm not trying to make pvp in this game competitive, I'm trying to make it more about fun, with more balance and not stale like it's been for years... Small case in point...

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62658/alliance-design-that-stops-the-qq

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62555/putting-fun-back-into-designs-and-balancing

    Edit- And to simplify... Some of you want to keep doing similar things the devs have done for years with WvW and Spvp... and they didn’t work out so well. Time to change the formula and do something different.

    I didn't even mention gear one time in that post.

    Nor did I mention sPvP.

    And WvW/RvR is frankly speaking, open ended game-play, how you play and enjoy it is entirely up to each individual, so we never really signed up to play a specific way now did we ?

    "Fun" is subjective, and from what I've read of your idea so far, your idea of fun seems to be to spam lots of buttons ? Well that isn't my kind of fun. Also, for many players competitive = fun, so not trying to make it competitive also means making it non-fun for some players.

    I mean, what do you think would happen to CU is they released and the RvR mode wasn't competitive ? I'm pretty sure that would flop hard.

    I'm not even suggesting "structure and hands of the devs in control" in that entire post, the only think I'm saying is that your balance suggestion is going to take combat in a different direction that you probably hoped for, and likely remove most remaining tactics in the game in favor of spam.


    Just a quick glance at warrior with -50% cd reduction for skills 1-0. With trait for stances and shield:

    • 3 sec block on shield 5, 10sec cd.
    • 5 sec absorb/all incoming attacks heal you, Defiant Stance on 15 sec cd.
    • 2,5 sec invuln, Endure Pain, 15 sec cd (And the freebie trait one remains at 90sec cd since trait)

    That's 10,5 seconds of various ways to stop damage on slightly under 15sec average cd. + random proc trait. On a warrior that will have 40k health just from base numbers, and heal twice as much (inside the defense rotation even).


    That said, I'm all for a test week with these modifications! It would be lots of fun, @ANet do it!

    All of my comments are based off of these posts. Both of which talk about spvp. Just sayin' my friend.

    Regarding that warrior reference.. I stated this... "Having higher health numbers provides a “safety net” for both devs and players during the time it takes to address or fix things that are found to be “broken”.".. We always have to assume other changes would need to be reviewed and made. You have to look at the main points of the post and why I would even suggest such changes...

    This mode is not healthy, and we need players to participate and stick with it. Killing a player in 1 shot, or a couple hits, is not healthy for wvw or spvp period. Other changes go with it so it can all make more sense.

    This is simply not true... "remove most remaining tactics in the game in favor of spam"... You must be talking about the game as it is now, not when fights last longer and require more effort if the changes went through...

    Honestly, you have to get your thinking out of what has been done already without great success. The status quo thinking will not improve these modes, but some of you are trapped in the same cycles that brought us to dropped e-sports, stale wvw and unaddressed issues with professions and combat.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    100 percent agree with giving us an amulet system you can have my gear I don't care about it.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2019

    @Israel.7056 said:
    100 percent agree with giving us an amulet system you can have my gear I don't care about it.

    That’s the problem with this mentally...Some of you are not thinking about what’s good for the majority, and how they would react to being told by Anet that all their gear is now useless in wvw...

    Such a change would mean some players wasted hundreds of hours of time grinding to get gear, leveling up crafting, grinding for gold and mats, or gem to gold purchases for mats, spirit shards, laurels, zone currencies, legendary gears... And no, an amulet system, from a mode that was dropped as an esport, wouldn’t be sufficient compensation for their lost time and resources, nor would an amulet system make realm vs realm wvw better.

    Edit- And go ahead, add up what players could potentially have wasted then tell me how happy they would really be? And exactly how Anet plans to compensate players under your amulet scenario?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_weapon

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_armor

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_trinket

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Armor

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_weapon

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    sigh

    No one ever want to see their own class gutted, but this will just continue powercreep. And frankly I don't see how this will attract more players either, it's just going to be a spam fest. This is just throwing more numbers at the problem, and hope it goes away.

    So:

    • +20 000 health to all classes
    • for ex: +100% extra healing on all sources of healing.
    • 1-0 -50% cooldown
    • -25% base crit (so start at -20%?)

    Considering we can build around the hit to crits, the 50% CD reduction is going to mean we can spam all the damaging skills, some classes/weapons doesn't even need to use AA's anylonger. This is practically a +100% damage increase. with a +100% healing increase, and a +100% health increase for warrior, and +200% health increase for guardian.

    It will be very close to having almost 0% impact on a warrior, while for all practical effects giving Guardian some extra hitpoints. While at the same time allows for some crazy defenses, because every single defensive skill is now on -50% cooldown, so double the amount.

    You could honestly achieve the exact same effect by simply reducing all damage modifiers in the game with -5% ?


    I'd prefer to go the other way, increase the cooldown on everything, so they're much more important when you use them. Neuter Ferocity hard, and remove/reduce a bunch of the damage modifiers, since most of the defensive skills will have double the cooldown you won't need as much damage to break through the windows of opening.


    But completely aside from that, if you have any belief that this game will ever become a competitive PVP game, I'd recommend you to reconsider right away. ANet isn't going to even try, it doesn't make them money.

    And honestly with the alliance system coming, WvW can take a population hit and still work.... unlike the world system. So who knows, perhaps that's the main reason they're working on it, because it means they can stuff WvW into "ignore mode" for good ? (Wouldn't be a bad idea from their perspective).

    Whats even funnier is than these obscene numbers is the reason GW2 balancing has a had a slight tendancy to fail: Anet go overboard with changes (because purity of purpose!) instead of making smaller tunings, then they keep swinging back and forth.

    Some suggestions on these forums become a dumpsterfire created by people forgetting that fire hurts.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    100 percent agree with giving us an amulet system you can have my gear I don't care about it.

    That’s the problem with this mentally...Some of you are not thinking about what’s good for the majority, and how they would react to being told by Anet that all their gear is now useless in wvw...

    Such a change would mean some players wasted hundreds of hours of time grinding to get gear, leveling up crafting, grinding for gold and mats, or gem to gold purchases for mats, spirit shards, laurels, zone currencies, legendary gears... And no, an amulet system, from a mode that was dropped as an esport, wouldn’t be sufficient compensation for their lost time and resources, nor would an amulet system make realm vs realm wvw better.

    Edit- And go ahead, add up what players could potentially have wasted then tell me how happy they would really be? And exactly how Anet plans to compensate players under your amulet scenario?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_weapon

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_armor

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_trinket

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Armor

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_weapon

    They'd get over it. I spent all that time on my stuff too and I'm already over it who cares take all of it the amulet system would make the game mode better and that's what matters.

  • Rysdude.3824Rysdude.3824 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    100 percent agree with giving us an amulet system you can have my gear I don't care about it.

    That’s the problem with this mentally...Some of you are not thinking about what’s good for the majority, and how they would react to being told by Anet that all their gear is now useless in wvw...

    Such a change would mean some players wasted hundreds of hours of time grinding to get gear, leveling up crafting, grinding for gold and mats, or gem to gold purchases for mats, spirit shards, laurels, zone currencies, legendary gears... And no, an amulet system, from a mode that was dropped as an esport, wouldn’t be sufficient compensation for their lost time and resources, nor would an amulet system make realm vs realm wvw better.

    Edit- And go ahead, add up what players could potentially have wasted then tell me how happy they would really be? And exactly how Anet plans to compensate players under your amulet scenario?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_weapon

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_armor

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_trinket

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Armor

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_weapon

    They'd get over it. I spent all that time on my stuff too and I'm already over it who cares take all of it the amulet system would make the game mode better and that's what matters.

    Thats quite an assumption.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rysdude.3824 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    100 percent agree with giving us an amulet system you can have my gear I don't care about it.

    That’s the problem with this mentally...Some of you are not thinking about what’s good for the majority, and how they would react to being told by Anet that all their gear is now useless in wvw...

    Such a change would mean some players wasted hundreds of hours of time grinding to get gear, leveling up crafting, grinding for gold and mats, or gem to gold purchases for mats, spirit shards, laurels, zone currencies, legendary gears... And no, an amulet system, from a mode that was dropped as an esport, wouldn’t be sufficient compensation for their lost time and resources, nor would an amulet system make realm vs realm wvw better.

    Edit- And go ahead, add up what players could potentially have wasted then tell me how happy they would really be? And exactly how Anet plans to compensate players under your amulet scenario?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_weapon

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_armor

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_trinket

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Armor

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_weapon

    They'd get over it. I spent all that time on my stuff too and I'm already over it who cares take all of it the amulet system would make the game mode better and that's what matters.

    Thats quite an assumption.

    Which part? Yeah some people would get pretty mad. They might even write a rage quit letter on the forums. But in a week or a month or whatever they'd get over it. Personally I'm already over it it's just stuff and we would still have the skins.

    The amulet system could solve several lingering problems at once and it would almost certainly make the game easier to balance in the future. The amulet system has been needed for a very long time imo.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Chorazin.4107 said:
    Well now there is no mesmer or SB it is double FB for most groups with Scourges and revs, maybe a vault spam thief and healbot tempest in that 15man. 6 FB's, 1 DD 1 Tempest, 2 Herald, 5 Scourge. In WvW you can drop the Thief for another Rev and sail away into the sunset with your eyepatch firing off 15k CoR's and Phase Smashes. Push with shades if you generate a few downs then retreat to pirate ship again.

    The backstab example for 18k is a bit off the mark, it is a: single target b: melee range. Yes it is too much damage from stealth but you can hit close to this on multiple targets from 1200rng with CoR and Phase Smash. I was excited back in the days before HoT to see a 6k Mighty Blow, now CoR's under 15k are like 'meh whatever'.

    Yes I don't think people have realised how homogenised WvW has become, I saw some people even saying heal scrapper was perfectly fine instead of a 2nd FB. That was a head scratcher as it does a worse job than a FB (ok it cleanses better) and gives superspeed yet revs can give 10 man SS.

    This post is a head scratcher to me. The game is the most heterogeneous in terms of comps and individual builds that I think its ever been. Gwen meta was THE meta for years and it was a very restrictive meta as everyone was all running the same builds too. At least now there's a solid role for engis revs and mesmers and room for some build diversity. Sure there's not an unlimited number of things everyone can do but at least almost everyone has a role. I've even seen some videos of eu guilds using vault spam thieves. That's a massive improvement in my view it's just too bad no one seems to appreciate how much the game has improved in this respect.

    Like I get that some people don't like the pacing of the fights because thats subjective but in terms of heterogeneity I think it's objectively the best it's ever been.

    Before HoT you had GWEN, Guardians, Warriors, Elementalists and Necros but you also had an FP of mesmers and thieves, that's 6 classes out of 8 in regular use.

    After HoT we got the FP removed because of melee ball and pirate ship and how everyone had permanent boons, we lost thieves in this time and warriors as thieves couldn't take the damage of a melee ball and warriors had the healing on shouts nerfed while also being inferior to a heal ele. We gained revs at different time periods in different builds, sometimes healer, mostly high spike damage. Chrono was used for boon spam though. We went from 6/8 to 5/9.

    PoF rolled around and for much of the beginning it was actually 3/9 classes, FB, Scourge and Spellbreaker because of how overtuned tomes, shades and WoD were. After we've had some nerfs we've seen revs join the fray again but we're starting to see spellbreakers dropping off, it's better to corrupt/boon strip with necros and nuke with revs. Occasionally you see some weavers (we saw a lot when meteor was doing 14k+ to minstrels) but the cast time on their skills, AoE nature and mobility of the enemy reduce it's effectiveness. Chrono you see 1-3 for veil and focus pull, thieves are a rarity outside of structured GvG, same for rangers and engineers.

    You mostly see Firebrands, Scourges, Revs, and a few Chronos now, we're at 4/9 and the chrono's are arguably not needed. It is becoming more homogenised.

    I guess it depends on playstyle but I think chrono and engi are mandatory and I like weavers for the damage although it's a high risk class to play for sure.

    In my view we are at least at 5/9 mandatory with weavers and spellbreakers as strong supplemental choices depending on how you want to play. Yeah you could run just guard necro and rev but youd lose so much utility and sustain dropping chrono and engi i dont think it would be worth it.

    The pacing of the fights is also excellent imo a lot of fights are over in seconds, one mistake can get you wiped fairly easily. I've always thought the sustain train stuff was pretty boring I like the rhythm of the game more now.

    Ez stab was a crutch for a lot of guilds for a long time I think that's a big reason why some people miss the old days so much.

    Name it, name the utility and sustain engy and chrono bring over replacing any of the rev, scourge or FB?

    2xFB will apply most boons when removed or corrupted, Chrono brings almost no boons anymore and is used for CC now. Engy brings boon spam and superspeed but has poor stab and stunbreak capability for allies which FB brings + a lot of sustain. Rev brings superspeed for 10 people as well as sustained might and fury and can bring stab, 50% damage reduction or resistance if needed.

    Edit: Also I laughed at the EZ stab being a crutch, FB brought more stab and stab spam.

    If you don't already know what im talking about I'm not going to tell you how to make chrono and engi work properly. I see a lot of guilds behind the curve on this one so you and your guild need to work together to figure it out. I think once you figure it out you will agree that chrono and engi are mandatory.

    You don't even seem to remember how stab used to work how long have you been playing?

    Spoken like someone who has no point and cannot answer the question. Stab access back when you're talking about was very limited, now stab is much more plentiful on guardian, you have Shout, F3 tome, and mantra which is also a stunbreak for allies. You also have the ability to trait F3 for more stab if you wanted.

    To dumb it down, there's more stab from guardians (and in general across classes) now than at any other point in time along with more boons to cover a corrupt. Stab is now carrying much harder than back when stab was a single non stacking binary boon by sheer volume.

    Still waiting on your "mandatory" chrono and engineer btw, if you can't justify it then don't make the claim.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    100 percent agree with giving us an amulet system you can have my gear I don't care about it.

    That’s the problem with this mentally...Some of you are not thinking about what’s good for the majority, and how they would react to being told by Anet that all their gear is now useless in wvw...

    Such a change would mean some players wasted hundreds of hours of time grinding to get gear, leveling up crafting, grinding for gold and mats, or gem to gold purchases for mats, spirit shards, laurels, zone currencies, legendary gears... And no, an amulet system, from a mode that was dropped as an esport, wouldn’t be sufficient compensation for their lost time and resources, nor would an amulet system make realm vs realm wvw better.

    Edit- And go ahead, add up what players could potentially have wasted then tell me how happy they would really be? And exactly how Anet plans to compensate players under your amulet scenario?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_weapon

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_armor

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_trinket

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Armor

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_weapon

    These people also don't realise how the PvE stats/runes make builds that would not be viable in PvP much more competitive in WvW. Best example is D/D core ele, sure it's not competitive with the overtuned holo, soulbeast and condi mirage but you can still be useful and effective on old celementalist in 80-90% of small scale fights.

    I agree about having PvP balance in WvW, the skills being the same in both modes, but not the stats and runes.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Chorazin.4107 said:
    Well now there is no mesmer or SB it is double FB for most groups with Scourges and revs, maybe a vault spam thief and healbot tempest in that 15man. 6 FB's, 1 DD 1 Tempest, 2 Herald, 5 Scourge. In WvW you can drop the Thief for another Rev and sail away into the sunset with your eyepatch firing off 15k CoR's and Phase Smashes. Push with shades if you generate a few downs then retreat to pirate ship again.

    The backstab example for 18k is a bit off the mark, it is a: single target b: melee range. Yes it is too much damage from stealth but you can hit close to this on multiple targets from 1200rng with CoR and Phase Smash. I was excited back in the days before HoT to see a 6k Mighty Blow, now CoR's under 15k are like 'meh whatever'.

    Yes I don't think people have realised how homogenised WvW has become, I saw some people even saying heal scrapper was perfectly fine instead of a 2nd FB. That was a head scratcher as it does a worse job than a FB (ok it cleanses better) and gives superspeed yet revs can give 10 man SS.

    This post is a head scratcher to me. The game is the most heterogeneous in terms of comps and individual builds that I think its ever been. Gwen meta was THE meta for years and it was a very restrictive meta as everyone was all running the same builds too. At least now there's a solid role for engis revs and mesmers and room for some build diversity. Sure there's not an unlimited number of things everyone can do but at least almost everyone has a role. I've even seen some videos of eu guilds using vault spam thieves. That's a massive improvement in my view it's just too bad no one seems to appreciate how much the game has improved in this respect.

    Like I get that some people don't like the pacing of the fights because thats subjective but in terms of heterogeneity I think it's objectively the best it's ever been.

    Before HoT you had GWEN, Guardians, Warriors, Elementalists and Necros but you also had an FP of mesmers and thieves, that's 6 classes out of 8 in regular use.

    After HoT we got the FP removed because of melee ball and pirate ship and how everyone had permanent boons, we lost thieves in this time and warriors as thieves couldn't take the damage of a melee ball and warriors had the healing on shouts nerfed while also being inferior to a heal ele. We gained revs at different time periods in different builds, sometimes healer, mostly high spike damage. Chrono was used for boon spam though. We went from 6/8 to 5/9.

    PoF rolled around and for much of the beginning it was actually 3/9 classes, FB, Scourge and Spellbreaker because of how overtuned tomes, shades and WoD were. After we've had some nerfs we've seen revs join the fray again but we're starting to see spellbreakers dropping off, it's better to corrupt/boon strip with necros and nuke with revs. Occasionally you see some weavers (we saw a lot when meteor was doing 14k+ to minstrels) but the cast time on their skills, AoE nature and mobility of the enemy reduce it's effectiveness. Chrono you see 1-3 for veil and focus pull, thieves are a rarity outside of structured GvG, same for rangers and engineers.

    You mostly see Firebrands, Scourges, Revs, and a few Chronos now, we're at 4/9 and the chrono's are arguably not needed. It is becoming more homogenised.

    I guess it depends on playstyle but I think chrono and engi are mandatory and I like weavers for the damage although it's a high risk class to play for sure.

    In my view we are at least at 5/9 mandatory with weavers and spellbreakers as strong supplemental choices depending on how you want to play. Yeah you could run just guard necro and rev but youd lose so much utility and sustain dropping chrono and engi i dont think it would be worth it.

    The pacing of the fights is also excellent imo a lot of fights are over in seconds, one mistake can get you wiped fairly easily. I've always thought the sustain train stuff was pretty boring I like the rhythm of the game more now.

    Ez stab was a crutch for a lot of guilds for a long time I think that's a big reason why some people miss the old days so much.

    Name it, name the utility and sustain engy and chrono bring over replacing any of the rev, scourge or FB?

    2xFB will apply most boons when removed or corrupted, Chrono brings almost no boons anymore and is used for CC now. Engy brings boon spam and superspeed but has poor stab and stunbreak capability for allies which FB brings + a lot of sustain. Rev brings superspeed for 10 people as well as sustained might and fury and can bring stab, 50% damage reduction or resistance if needed.

    Edit: Also I laughed at the EZ stab being a crutch, FB brought more stab and stab spam.

    If you don't already know what im talking about I'm not going to tell you how to make chrono and engi work properly. I see a lot of guilds behind the curve on this one so you and your guild need to work together to figure it out. I think once you figure it out you will agree that chrono and engi are mandatory.

    You don't even seem to remember how stab used to work how long have you been playing?

    Spoken like someone who has no point and cannot answer the question. Stab access back when you're talking about was very limited, now stab is much more plentiful on guardian, you have Shout, F3 tome, and mantra which is also a stunbreak for allies. You also have the ability to trait F3 for more stab if you wanted.

    To dumb it down, there's more stab from guardians (and in general across classes) now than at any other point in time along with more boons to cover a corrupt. Stab is now carrying much harder than back when stab was a single non stacking binary boon by sheer volume.

    Still waiting on your "mandatory" chrono and engineer btw, if you can't justify it then don't make the claim.

    I just don't want to do your work for you. It's worth potentially losing this pointless internet argument with some random bad if it means keeping people like you in the dark about how this game really works. If you don't understand chrono and engi yet I'm not going to do you any more favors than I already have by pointing you in the right direction. You're welcome btw.

    There are more sources of stab application now but the reliability of stab has been significantly reduced over time because it can all be stripped or ccd off almost instantly hence the increased meta angst towards pushing in general and the increased reliance on range pokes to do most of the heavy lifting where it used to be the melee push doing the work.

    Anyways I can see why your first post was so perplexing to me good luck figuring things out.

    You do realise that stab can only be stripped by CC every 0.75s? I even told you that, here's a link to better inform yourself on that:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability

    So stab being stripped by CC is almost a non issue at the moment, you may lose 1-2 stacks from this, the majority comes from corrupts. The number of corrupts have gone up from necros but so has the boon spam from the "stab carries bads" days you're referring to. So the likelihood of stab being stripped has actually gone down and for the third time now I'm telling you we have a lot more stab than before especially if running double firebrand, it's at a point where CC is almost pointless without mass focused corrupts.

    Say what you want but I give reasons for what I'm saying, you can disagree and discuss them and why you think it's not right but at least I do put my reasons. You however haven't posted anything and are falling onto personal attacks. Engy became less potent in December with the change to kinetic stabilisers as it's harder to get and maintain superspeed now it's linked to disabling a person instead of gyro activation. This means less healing from medical dispersion field + rapid regeneration and more reliance on compounding chemicals soothing detonation and purity of purpose. It's still got great cleansing power but FB gives more utility.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    You do realise that stab can only be stripped by CC every 0.75s? I even told you that, here's a link to better inform yourself on that:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability

    So stab being stripped by CC is almost a non issue at the moment, you may lose 1-2 stacks from this, the majority comes from corrupts. The number of corrupts have gone up from necros but so has the boon spam from the "stab carries bads" days you're referring to. So the likelihood of stab being stripped has actually gone down and for the third time now I'm telling you we have a lot more stab than before especially if running double firebrand, it's at a point where CC is almost pointless without mass focused corrupts.

    Say what you want but I give reasons for what I'm saying, you can disagree and discuss them and why you think it's not right but at least I do put my reasons. You however haven't posted anything and are falling onto personal attacks. Engy became less potent in December with the change to kinetic stabilisers as it's harder to get and maintain superspeed now it's linked to disabling a person instead of gyro activation. This means less healing from medical dispersion field + rapid regeneration and more reliance on compounding chemicals soothing detonation and purity of purpose. It's still got great cleansing power but FB gives more utility.

    What guild are you in out of curiosity?

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    You do realise that stab can only be stripped by CC every 0.75s? I even told you that, here's a link to better inform yourself on that:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability

    So stab being stripped by CC is almost a non issue at the moment, you may lose 1-2 stacks from this, the majority comes from corrupts. The number of corrupts have gone up from necros but so has the boon spam from the "stab carries bads" days you're referring to. So the likelihood of stab being stripped has actually gone down and for the third time now I'm telling you we have a lot more stab than before especially if running double firebrand, it's at a point where CC is almost pointless without mass focused corrupts.

    Say what you want but I give reasons for what I'm saying, you can disagree and discuss them and why you think it's not right but at least I do put my reasons. You however haven't posted anything and are falling onto personal attacks. Engy became less potent in December with the change to kinetic stabilisers as it's harder to get and maintain superspeed now it's linked to disabling a person instead of gyro activation. This means less healing from medical dispersion field + rapid regeneration and more reliance on compounding chemicals soothing detonation and purity of purpose. It's still got great cleansing power but FB gives more utility.

    What guild are you in out of curiosity?

    Well considering you wouldn't answer my question it's a bit strange asking this especially when there's more fruitful things to ask and say.

    A better question would be "Which region are you in?" as EU and NA have different styles atm.

    It would also probably help to clarify our positions. If you're talking strict GvG format then yes Chrono and Engineer have some use there, I won't deny it and I'll agree with that. If you're talking semi organised to pug groups to zone blobs I stand by my 3 classes only however some veils are in the nice to have category so mesmer gets a look in.

    Additionally I'll take the time to say what I mean by FB, Rev and Scourge is that these classes are the only ones NEEDED. You can bring different classes and be somewhat useful depending on what you're fighting but these 3 are universally always useful and always used no matter which way you cut it and will cover nearly everything you could need except for stealth.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    You do realise that stab can only be stripped by CC every 0.75s? I even told you that, here's a link to better inform yourself on that:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability

    So stab being stripped by CC is almost a non issue at the moment, you may lose 1-2 stacks from this, the majority comes from corrupts. The number of corrupts have gone up from necros but so has the boon spam from the "stab carries bads" days you're referring to. So the likelihood of stab being stripped has actually gone down and for the third time now I'm telling you we have a lot more stab than before especially if running double firebrand, it's at a point where CC is almost pointless without mass focused corrupts.

    Say what you want but I give reasons for what I'm saying, you can disagree and discuss them and why you think it's not right but at least I do put my reasons. You however haven't posted anything and are falling onto personal attacks. Engy became less potent in December with the change to kinetic stabilisers as it's harder to get and maintain superspeed now it's linked to disabling a person instead of gyro activation. This means less healing from medical dispersion field + rapid regeneration and more reliance on compounding chemicals soothing detonation and purity of purpose. It's still got great cleansing power but FB gives more utility.

    What guild are you in out of curiosity?

    Well considering you wouldn't answer my question it's a bit strange asking this especially when there's more fruitful things to ask and say.

    A better question would be "Which region are you in?" as EU and NA have different styles atm.

    It would also probably help to clarify our positions. If you're talking strict GvG format then yes Chrono and Engineer have some use there, I won't deny it and I'll agree with that. If you're talking semi organised to pug groups to zone blobs I stand by my 3 classes only however some veils are in the nice to have category so mesmer gets a look in.

    Additionally I'll take the time to say what I mean by FB, Rev and Scourge is that these classes are the only ones NEEDED. You can bring different classes and be somewhat useful depending on what you're fighting but these 3 are universally always useful and always used no matter which way you cut it and will cover nearly everything you could need except for stealth.

    I'm talking about closed guild raids on na servers.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    You do realise that stab can only be stripped by CC every 0.75s? I even told you that, here's a link to better inform yourself on that:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability

    So stab being stripped by CC is almost a non issue at the moment, you may lose 1-2 stacks from this, the majority comes from corrupts. The number of corrupts have gone up from necros but so has the boon spam from the "stab carries bads" days you're referring to. So the likelihood of stab being stripped has actually gone down and for the third time now I'm telling you we have a lot more stab than before especially if running double firebrand, it's at a point where CC is almost pointless without mass focused corrupts.

    Say what you want but I give reasons for what I'm saying, you can disagree and discuss them and why you think it's not right but at least I do put my reasons. You however haven't posted anything and are falling onto personal attacks. Engy became less potent in December with the change to kinetic stabilisers as it's harder to get and maintain superspeed now it's linked to disabling a person instead of gyro activation. This means less healing from medical dispersion field + rapid regeneration and more reliance on compounding chemicals soothing detonation and purity of purpose. It's still got great cleansing power but FB gives more utility.

    What guild are you in out of curiosity?

    Well considering you wouldn't answer my question it's a bit strange asking this especially when there's more fruitful things to ask and say.

    A better question would be "Which region are you in?" as EU and NA have different styles atm.

    It would also probably help to clarify our positions. If you're talking strict GvG format then yes Chrono and Engineer have some use there, I won't deny it and I'll agree with that. If you're talking semi organised to pug groups to zone blobs I stand by my 3 classes only however some veils are in the nice to have category so mesmer gets a look in.

    Additionally I'll take the time to say what I mean by FB, Rev and Scourge is that these classes are the only ones NEEDED. You can bring different classes and be somewhat useful depending on what you're fighting but these 3 are universally always useful and always used no matter which way you cut it and will cover nearly everything you could need except for stealth.

    I'm talking about closed guild raids on na servers.

    Well that's probably our difference of opinion then. I think after the changes to scrapper in December it's not worth running personally but if it gives you an edge in the meta of the region then fair play. There's more room for variation in closed GvG type raids.

  • Rysdude.3824Rysdude.3824 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Rysdude.3824 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    100 percent agree with giving us an amulet system you can have my gear I don't care about it.

    That’s the problem with this mentally...Some of you are not thinking about what’s good for the majority, and how they would react to being told by Anet that all their gear is now useless in wvw...

    Such a change would mean some players wasted hundreds of hours of time grinding to get gear, leveling up crafting, grinding for gold and mats, or gem to gold purchases for mats, spirit shards, laurels, zone currencies, legendary gears... And no, an amulet system, from a mode that was dropped as an esport, wouldn’t be sufficient compensation for their lost time and resources, nor would an amulet system make realm vs realm wvw better.

    Edit- And go ahead, add up what players could potentially have wasted then tell me how happy they would really be? And exactly how Anet plans to compensate players under your amulet scenario?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_weapon

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_armor

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_trinket

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Armor

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_weapon

    They'd get over it. I spent all that time on my stuff too and I'm already over it who cares take all of it the amulet system would make the game mode better and that's what matters.

    Thats quite an assumption.

    Which part? Yeah some people would get pretty mad. They might even write a rage quit letter on the forums. But in a week or a month or whatever they'd get over it. Personally I'm already over it it's just stuff and we would still have the skins.

    The amulet system could solve several lingering problems at once and it would almost certainly make the game easier to balance in the future. The amulet system has been needed for a very long time imo.

    Ah I see. Well in that case, you're probably right.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    100 percent agree with giving us an amulet system you can have my gear I don't care about it.

    That’s the problem with this mentally...Some of you are not thinking about what’s good for the majority, and how they would react to being told by Anet that all their gear is now useless in wvw...

    Such a change would mean some players wasted hundreds of hours of time grinding to get gear, leveling up crafting, grinding for gold and mats, or gem to gold purchases for mats, spirit shards, laurels, zone currencies, legendary gears... And no, an amulet system, from a mode that was dropped as an esport, wouldn’t be sufficient compensation for their lost time and resources, nor would an amulet system make realm vs realm wvw better.

    Edit- And go ahead, add up what players could potentially have wasted then tell me how happy they would really be? And exactly how Anet plans to compensate players under your amulet scenario?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_weapon

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_armor

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_trinket

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Armor

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_weapon

    They'd get over it. I spent all that time on my stuff too and I'm already over it who cares take all of it the amulet system would make the game mode better and that's what matters.

    That’s a pretty careless way of looking at it...

    Thank goodness the devs are way more rational and sensible than that.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Thank goodness the devs are way more rational and sensible than that.

    Says the guy appealing primarily to emotion as the reason not to implement the amulet system in wvw.

    Forget that it would be much simpler to balance. Forget that it could help to combat many of the effects of stat inflation one of which could be called "time to kill" (even though that term is horribly imprecise in a game with enormously varied scenarios.) Forget all of its potential advantages.

    Forget the amulet system because people might get a sad over their gear even though they would still have all their skins from their gear.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Thank goodness the devs are way more rational and sensible than that.

    Says the guy appealing primarily to emotion as the reason not to implement the amulet system in wvw.

    Forget that it would be much simpler to balance. Forget that it could help to combat many of the effects of stat inflation one of which could be called "time to kill" (even though that term is horribly imprecise in a game with enormously varied scenarios.) Forget all of its potential advantages.

    Forget the amulet system because people might get a sad over their gear even though they would still have all their skins from their gear.

    Yes it’s careless to not consider gear investments made over the past 6 years. Those types of gearing changes have some big negative impacts, and are they types of things you consider implementing before a game launches, not 6 years in... but obviously you didn’t think about any of that.

    My comments were the rational way of looking at things, unlike the “they’ll get over it” mentality.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Yes it’s careless to not consider gear investments made over the past 6 years. Those types of gearing changes have some big negative impacts, and are they types of things you consider implementing before a game launches, not 6 years in... but obviously you didn’t think about any of that.

    My comments were the rational way of looking at things, unlike the “they’ll get over it” mentality.

    Both are rational just operating on completely different presuppositions.

    Personally I don't think the idea of "time to kill" is particularly meaningful in this game to begin with so the conversation surrounding it is rather vague which has lead us to talking more generally about class balance and radical solutions to that problem as a result.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Yes it’s careless to not consider gear investments made over the past 6 years. Those types of gearing changes have some big negative impacts, and are they types of things you consider implementing before a game launches, not 6 years in... but obviously you didn’t think about any of that.

    My comments were the rational way of looking at things, unlike the “they’ll get over it” mentality.

    Both are rational just operating on completely different presuppositions.

    Personally I don't think the idea of "time to kill" is particularly meaningful in this game to begin with so the conversation surrounding it is rather vague which has lead us to talking more generally about class balance and radical solutions to that problem as a result.

    Unfortunately you’re not being rational about the gear topic, sorry.

    Just because you don’t find the topic meaningful doesn’t mean conversations equal being vague... I was pretty clear.

    All conversations evolve, and certain things can be interconnected or related to a topic... Pretty simple... I bring up topic about ttk and some issues and solutions. Someone else says “no, we need gear changes for the solutions”... When paying attention it’s easy to connect the dots.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Thank goodness the devs are way more rational and sensible than that.

    Says the guy appealing primarily to emotion as the reason not to implement the amulet system in wvw.

    Forget that it would be much simpler to balance. Forget that it could help to combat many of the effects of stat inflation one of which could be called "time to kill" (even though that term is horribly imprecise in a game with enormously varied scenarios.) Forget all of its potential advantages.

    Forget the amulet system because people might get a sad over their gear even though they would still have all their skins from their gear.

    And as each time I have suggested this, I also meant that 1) You Ascended slots will still apply that bonus and 2) in WvW it would include ALL stat combos, sigils, and runes, I really don't see what the resistance is.

    In addition to balancing it better and easier, it would help in encouraging and recruiting new players as it eliminates that cost to be effective. They can just jump in and play, with any builds they want that Metabattle discovers for them.

    Seems to me the resistance from vets is more the baby boomer style, "I had to suffer and pay for it, so now so do you!"

    This does not help the mode.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Chorazin.4107Chorazin.4107 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Israel.7056 said:

    I guess it depends on playstyle but I think chrono and engi are mandatory and I like weavers for the damage although it's a high risk class to play for sure.

    In my view we are at least at 5/9 mandatory with weavers and spellbreakers as strong supplemental choices depending on how you want to play. Yeah you could run just guard necro and rev but youd lose so much utility and sustain dropping chrono and engi i dont think it would be worth it.

    The pacing of the fights is also excellent imo a lot of fights are over in seconds, one mistake can get you wiped fairly easily. I've always thought the sustain train stuff was pretty boring I like the rhythm of the game more now.

    Ez stab was a crutch for a lot of guilds for a long time I think that's a big reason why some people miss the old days so much.

    What does the Engi and Chrono do?

    You want stealth in a 15man GvG you blast a smoke field, this and vault dmg is the DD's role, you generally are not using a Chrono just to give you a veil. The CC is debatable given how much stab a 15 man with 6FB's has, add another Scourge to strip boons and apply dmg is a better option. I admit Chrono used to be wanted for the boon spam, but Anet nuked that from orbit, now it's pretty much drop the Chrono replace with FB no.2. You want superspeed, that is provided usually on a push via Heralds Chaotic Release. Scrapper has some use abusing the rune of altruism bug with mortar kit and traited purity of purpose. Healing kit, Bypass Coating, Defense Field, e.gun all useful but more useful than FB no. two? Or adding another Scourge? I do not see it as an absolute necessity, even if you are looking at optimal 15man setups.

    You might take 1 Spellbreaker, you might take 1 DD, you might take 1 healbot Tempest or Scrapper. Outside this the groups are Scourges, FB's, Heralds.

    In WvW blobs, bring whatever, bring your Spirits Druid or GS Spirit weapons Guardian. It doesnt matter, but when you start trimming down the groups to 15 those slots become valuable and you dont have room for passengers.

    [lion] - [tRex] - [nâh/UwU/yep]

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chorazin.4107 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    I guess it depends on playstyle but I think chrono and engi are mandatory and I like weavers for the damage although it's a high risk class to play for sure.

    In my view we are at least at 5/9 mandatory with weavers and spellbreakers as strong supplemental choices depending on how you want to play. Yeah you could run just guard necro and rev but youd lose so much utility and sustain dropping chrono and engi i dont think it would be worth it.

    The pacing of the fights is also excellent imo a lot of fights are over in seconds, one mistake can get you wiped fairly easily. I've always thought the sustain train stuff was pretty boring I like the rhythm of the game more now.

    Ez stab was a crutch for a lot of guilds for a long time I think that's a big reason why some people miss the old days so much.

    What does the Engi and Chrono do?

    You want stealth in a 15man GvG you blast a smoke field, this and vault dmg is the DD's role, you generally are not using a Chrono just to give you a veil. The CC is debatable given how much stab a 15 man with 6FB's has, add another Scourge to strip boons and apply dmg is a better option. I admit Chrono used to be wanted for the boon spam, but Anet nuked that from orbit, now it's pretty much drop the Chrono replace with FB no.2. You want superspeed, that is provided usually on a push via Heralds Chaotic Release. Scrapper has some use abusing the rune of altruism bug with mortar kit and traited purity of purpose. Healing kit, Bypass Coating, Defense Field, e.gun all useful but more useful than FB no. two? Or adding another Scourge? I do not see it as an absolute necessity, even if you are looking at optimal 15man setups.

    You might take 1 Spellbreaker, you might take 1 DD, you might take 1 healbot Tempest or Scrapper. Outside this the groups are Scourges, FB's, Heralds.

    In WvW blobs, bring whatever, bring your Spirits Druid or GS Spirit weapons Guardian. It doesnt matter, but when you start trimming down the groups to 15 those slots become valuable and you dont have room for passengers.

    I'll tell you in private. If people really don't know this stuff I'm not about to be the one to tell them.

  • Chorazin.4107Chorazin.4107 Member ✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    I'll tell you in private. If people really don't know this stuff I'm not about to be the one to tell them.

    Yeah Nah mate, tell everyone, such valuable information should not be concealed from the general populace. Edward Snowden would agree.

    [lion] - [tRex] - [nâh/UwU/yep]

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Chorazin.4107 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    I guess it depends on playstyle but I think chrono and engi are mandatory and I like weavers for the damage although it's a high risk class to play for sure.

    In my view we are at least at 5/9 mandatory with weavers and spellbreakers as strong supplemental choices depending on how you want to play. Yeah you could run just guard necro and rev but youd lose so much utility and sustain dropping chrono and engi i dont think it would be worth it.

    The pacing of the fights is also excellent imo a lot of fights are over in seconds, one mistake can get you wiped fairly easily. I've always thought the sustain train stuff was pretty boring I like the rhythm of the game more now.

    Ez stab was a crutch for a lot of guilds for a long time I think that's a big reason why some people miss the old days so much.

    What does the Engi and Chrono do?

    You want stealth in a 15man GvG you blast a smoke field, this and vault dmg is the DD's role, you generally are not using a Chrono just to give you a veil. The CC is debatable given how much stab a 15 man with 6FB's has, add another Scourge to strip boons and apply dmg is a better option. I admit Chrono used to be wanted for the boon spam, but Anet nuked that from orbit, now it's pretty much drop the Chrono replace with FB no.2. You want superspeed, that is provided usually on a push via Heralds Chaotic Release. Scrapper has some use abusing the rune of altruism bug with mortar kit and traited purity of purpose. Healing kit, Bypass Coating, Defense Field, e.gun all useful but more useful than FB no. two? Or adding another Scourge? I do not see it as an absolute necessity, even if you are looking at optimal 15man setups.

    You might take 1 Spellbreaker, you might take 1 DD, you might take 1 healbot Tempest or Scrapper. Outside this the groups are Scourges, FB's, Heralds.

    In WvW blobs, bring whatever, bring your Spirits Druid or GS Spirit weapons Guardian. It doesnt matter, but when you start trimming down the groups to 15 those slots become valuable and you dont have room for passengers.

    6 FB in 15's is only seen on NA scene. No guild runs more than 4 on EU.
    1 Chrono is still mandatory as a non support for IoL and CC.
    1 scrapper offers cleanse (convert), heal and reveal.
    If you lack prot uptime/heal/cc you play tempest.

    In EU WvW zerg, you will most likely have 10 fb,10-15 rev, 15-20 scourge and a couple spellbreaker, chronos (veil), weaver, tempest. Scrappers are still viable but not optimal anymore for large scale fights. I guess that's why aPharma said anything else than FB/rev/scourge is not mandatory.

  • Chorazin.4107Chorazin.4107 Member ✭✭✭

    @Acyk.9671 said:

    In EU WvW zerg, you will most likely have 10 fb,10-15 rev, 15-20 scourge and a couple spellbreaker, chronos (veil), weaver, tempest. Scrappers are still viable but not optimal anymore for large scale fights. I guess that's why aPharma said anything else than FB/rev/scourge is not mandatory.

    I believe Apharma is EU.

    [lion] - [tRex] - [nâh/UwU/yep]

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chorazin.4107 said:
    What does the Engi and Chrono do?

    The scrapper singlehandedly win fights for the commander by keeping everyone that he ignores alive and cleansed so they can outsustain the enemy.

    But other than that, not much.

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭

    Why mess around so much. Just get the damage back under control and don't let any class get too OP. Single hit high dps is good in fps games but not in MMOs.

  • Chorazin.4107Chorazin.4107 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Chorazin.4107 said:
    What does the Engi and Chrono do?

    The scrapper singlehandedly win fights for the commander by keeping everyone that he ignores alive and cleansed so they can outsustain the enemy.

    But other than that, not much.

    The commander. So in a zerg?

    You can pretty much bring anything to a zerg fight as I said in my first post. Bring your Spirit Ranger or Turret Engi, it's a zerg fight, or your meme builds. 1 shot soulbeasts, DJ DE's, whatever floats your boat.

    [lion] - [tRex] - [nâh/UwU/yep]

  • I haven't read everything here but based on what I have, I'd like to say this:

    No matter what happens there will always be complaints. When a change is made, those that are satisfied will be silent and those that are not will make noise. Try to find positive threads on the state of WvW because I assure you they are a rarity.

    Too many people want WvW to be as competitive as PvP when it was never intended to be. It is the middle ground between PvE and PvP where you can do one or the other or both in the same area. There are never going to be fights that are perfectly balanced when as many as 80 players can be involved. There are too many variables to consider when there are 9 professions with each having 2 elite specs and how ever many stat, food, rune and sigil combinations there are. Just like there will never be leaderboards for the most successful guilds because it's too difficult to measure how that success is earned.

    It is true that balance is poor but this has always been an issue. People need to take the good with the bad and remember that having fun is at the core of it. The harder you try to see WvW as something it's not the harder it'll be to enjoy yourself.

    Personally I love poking at zergs by myself or with a couple friends and I have a great deal of fun no matter how often I die (which is usually a lot). When I'm with a zerg, I know that it's important to work with my teammates and to be aware of my surroundings, this intensity is another aspect of the enjoyment WvW brings me. Maybe it's a case of ignorance is bliss but, there haven't been many times in the history of WvW that I have been so unsatisfied with balance that I couldn't enjoy myself. I'm simply too enthralled in the chaos and laughs I'm having and I wish more could experience that.

    [JEEP] [IH] [HUNT] | Necromancer | Maguuma | Diamond Legend
    You've got those dangerous eyes ... ♫

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019

    Meanwhile...

    My cute lil necro...

    • 1735T/2702A
    • 23,012 health

    Incoming attack (from stealth)…

    • 13,395
    • 1,298
    • 6,809
    • absorbed
    • 5,119
    • 1,303
    • 1,303

    Total damage in a couple seconds...

    • 29,227

    Any wonder why I would create a suggestion thread such as this? How reasonable, and fair, is it for players to deal with these types of damage outputs when 1 opener can consume almost 30k health?

    These are the base health numbers at 80...

    19,212
    15,922
    11,645

    A player can build for max toughness and max health, at the cost of other stats, just to get killed by 1 player in an opener...

    I know the above is a simplified way to look at it, but this area is one of the most glaring disparities about the pvp combat system with this game... And while certain people want damage gutted, my proposals are a more “cleaner” and more sensible way to address the problems.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Meanwhile...

    My cute lil necro...

    • 1735T/2702A
    • 23,012 health

    Incoming attack (from stealth)…

    • 13,395
    • 1,298
    • 6,809
    • absorbed
    • 5,119
    • 1,303
    • 1,303

    Total damage in a couple seconds...

    • 29,227

    Any wonder why I would create a suggestion thread such as this? How reasonable, and fair, is it for players to deal with these types of damage outputs when 1 opener can consume almost 30k health?

    What was your guardian doing?

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Meanwhile...

    My cute lil necro...

    • 1735T/2702A
    • 23,012 health

    Incoming attack (from stealth)…

    • 13,395
    • 1,298
    • 6,809
    • absorbed
    • 5,119
    • 1,303
    • 1,303

    Total damage in a couple seconds...

    • 29,227

    Any wonder why I would create a suggestion thread such as this? How reasonable, and fair, is it for players to deal with these types of damage outputs when 1 opener can consume almost 30k health?

    What was your guardian doing?

    There-in lies the problem with discussing balance in a vacuum. (And this is only using your comment @Israel.7056 to make a point)

    This game was made for group content. Not solo. Can you play solo? Yes.

    But WvWvW is about Worlds... not individuals.

    And @Swagger.1459 , I am not saying that damage hasn’t ramped up too much and doesn’t need reducing, but some significant perspective of how the group affects damage needs to matter more than what the individual does.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Meanwhile...

    My cute lil necro...

    • 1735T/2702A
    • 23,012 health

    Incoming attack (from stealth)…

    • 13,395
    • 1,298
    • 6,809
    • absorbed
    • 5,119
    • 1,303
    • 1,303

    Total damage in a couple seconds...

    • 29,227

    Any wonder why I would create a suggestion thread such as this? How reasonable, and fair, is it for players to deal with these types of damage outputs when 1 opener can consume almost 30k health?

    What was your guardian doing?

    There-in lies the problem with discussing balance in a vacuum. (And this is only using your comment @Israel.7056 to make a point)

    This game was made for group content. Not solo. Can you play solo? Yes.

    But WvWvW is about Worlds... not individuals.

    And @Swagger.1459 , I am not saying that damage hasn’t ramped up too much and doesn’t need reducing, but some significant perspective of how the group affects damage needs to matter more than what the individual does.

    I understand, but the proposals also improve combat scenarios for any group size.

    When we look at how large scale unfolds it's basically... "litter the map with 1,000,000,000 aoes to put everyone in a holding pattern. Gauge the scenario. Find your chance, or create opening tactic and commit. 1 side generally gets obliterated in a few seconds, while some lucky survivors scatter away. Respawn. Rinse and repeat."...

    These suggestions mean that players will be more likely to engage opponents when their characters are a bit more hearty. This also improves the chances of making a comeback, as opposed to just getting nuked back to spawn in the matter of seconds. This could also mean that melee potentially plays a stronger role in the combat equations…

  • Straegen.2938Straegen.2938 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    Upping the HP would break entire classes. We already have rotational defenses that requires a near perfect attack to down a player. The Soulbeast and Tempest builds running right now can easily take on two heavy hitters. I cannot imagine burst healing builds in the Tempest line... it could take 3+ players to drop that build.

    BTW WvW is far more bunker today than at release. It isn't even close. Lay into a bunker build even with a power build in a 1v1 and it is like watching paint dry. In small scale fights healing spam already makes an Ele/Guardian anchor team near unkillable outside of more numbers with boon strip. Even if a player downs a bunker group, they rez so fast it doesn't matter. The problem isn't spike damage ATM but the extremes we play in. A player has to be all bunker, all damage or play an essentially OP build in the meta.

  • Celsith.2753Celsith.2753 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    I think before we talk about upping TTK in general it's important to discuss the damage ethos in this games wvw as a whole. For example, I think a positional required melee range single target attack should be the highest damage skill in the game, with a max range multi target attack with no positional requirement that allows movement whilst casting being the lowest damage extreme.
    Once all that is sorted out you have to look at the traits/defense/offense available. Sort all THAT out so that the classes/builds with least defense do better damage than more defensive built of their class, then you can look at damage in general.
    And you do have to remember that no matter how much you personally hate getting one shot on your almost glass zergling whatever, SOMEONE has to be able to kill the firebrand :/

    885k+ WvW kills
    Diamond No Life
    [HUNT] Predatory Instinct

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I still stand by my comment I made a year ago in this thread (hint: it's on page 1). Fite me.

    D:

    P.S. Does a thread get considered for "necroing" if there is a ~5 month gap on the 2nd page? Hmmm... #AnnoyingHallMonitor

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • @Straegen.2938 said:
    Upping the HP would break entire classes. We already have rotational defenses that requires a near perfect attack to down a player. The Soulbeast and Tempest builds running right now can easily take on two heavy hitters. I cannot imagine burst healing builds in the Tempest line... it could take 3+ players to drop that build.

    BTW WvW is far more bunker today than at release. It isn't even close. Lay into a bunker build even with a power build in a 1v1 and it is like watching paint dry. In small scale fights healing spam already makes an Ele/Guardian anchor team near unkillable outside of more numbers with boon strip. Even if a player downs a bunker group, they rez so fast it doesn't matter. The problem isn't spike damage ATM but the extremes we play in. A player has to be all bunker, all damage or play an essentially OP build in the meta.

    That's easy to deal with. We could double or triple the effects of vitality as long as we add in dimishing returns on all Healing. There are 2 methods I would propose for accomplishing this:

    1.) Healing reduces maximum HP. Maximum HP recovers over time when out of battle. The reduction is not 1:1, and is more forgiving with self healing than it is for group healing. This method hurts Healing Power builds, but at the same time, dying later is better than dying now, so Healing is still important (especially if we get upwards of 50k or more hp thanks to doubled or tripled vitality).

    2.) Healing puts a stacking debuff that reduces healing received. Split into Self and Outside Healing so teammates don't screw your healing over, and vice versa. Would be based on the % of your max health you've healed while in combat, but is not 1:1. For example, if you used a heal that restored 10% of your max health, you would gain 10 stacks of the debuff, which would reduce SELF healing by some percentage. If a guardian healed you for 10%, that would apply 10 stacks of the alternate debuff, reducing healing from outside sources. The self debuff would affect Life Force by the same percentage, so no necro gods.

    A bonus effect of boosting the value of vitality is that necro is buffed without making them sustain gods, by really making them the true attrition style of having a huge amount of hit points and lumbering at you.

  • we're claiming that there's build diversity when the only acceptable guardian build these days is full minstrel? i'd rather take my chances in oncoming traffic than play minstrel guardian.

    Xterra/Marqeese[Ark]

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