Mantra of liberation Ammo CD is a big NONO for WvW

Liberation was in a good place for WvW :( i can understand the need for the change in pvp but in WvW we fight much larger groups of ppl with a lot more chance of CC/Boon rip/boon corrupt and danger from this. Any chance we can get this skill split for WvW and Reverted back to 15s ammo RC? imo 25s cooldown is just way 2 much for WvW situations.

yeah when I read that I thought to myself wow that's a huge nerf...I could get behind a split difference, 20sec ammo recharge.

In PvE too. I understand why 15 sec was too much in sPvP, but even in sPvP 25 sec CD is essentiallt murdering this skill. Obviously, it has no chance to be used in any game mode now.

Great balance patch..

The problem with this skill is that it breaks stun not only for you but also for your allies, guardian already has decent stun break combosyou can get 3 with utilities:stand your ground, contemplation of purity, judge's intervention (also signet of judgement and Save yourselves!)

you can then trait tome of courage to get another AoE stun break

another one in #4 of tome of courage (albeit only for you)

Then multiple charges on mantra of liberation

I hope you can all see now that if properly specced you are close to immune to taunts stuns daze and fear.

Mantra of liberation should never have had stun break on it, it was just too powerful combined with the other abilities and now it's nearly impossible to balance without getting it too strong (before) or too weak (now)

@Zantal.4798 said:The problem with this skill is that it breaks stun not only for you but also for your allies, guardian already has decent stun break combosyou can get 3 with utilities:stand your ground, contemplation of purity, judge's intervention (also signet of judgement and Save yourselves!)

you can then trait tome of courage to get another AoE stun break

another one in #4 of tome of courage (albeit only for you)

Then multiple charges on mantra of liberation

I hope you can all see now that if properly specced you are close to immune to taunts stuns daze and fear.

Mantra of liberation should never have had stun break on it, it was just too powerful combined with the other abilities and now it's nearly impossible to balance without getting it too strong (before) or too weak (now)

every single skill u listen is a self stun break and only one utility, maybe 2, you mentioned are used in WvW in this current meta and in this current meta you just get corrupted and stunned again when u use these skills. Do you even play wvw organised group play? i dont think you do, judging from what you said. Current meta is full of AoE Corrupts and AoE CC's. The need for a useful USEFUL skill like liberation is needed and i think the devs knew this and hence why it was added to the game. This change however was a massive hit to the support offered and needed from this skill. You need to, as a guardian, support you team mates but this change has left this skill almost useless. I think a split on this skill for WvW and reducing its ammo count recharge back to 15s for WvW is the right move.

I think a 20 sec recharge rate would have been the happy medium. I think we can all agree that 15 sec was maybe a tad overtuned considering it's a group stunbreak. But with all the CC from professions like holosmith and warrior the 25 sec recharge is slightly too long imo.

I think base 20s recharge (16s if traited into Weighty Terms) is totally fair considering the quality and quantity of stunbreaks other classes have. Guardians who aren't strictly running front-line builds have historically suffered from not having stunbreaks on low cooldowns unlike many other classes.

I actually played Mantra of Liberation as both a zerg/roamer player before this patch and I'll admit it felt a bit OP (especially in 1v1s) but in a larger fight, it really didn't. Now it just feels bad to use

Considering it directly effects Radiance Retaliation builds, the change really hurts...They could have at least increased retal duration for those FB power builds...

You are overestimating the impact of group stunbreak. The range is very short, so unless your group was stacked when they got stunned,you can't even reach them with it. Sure, that's not to say you don't ever break ally stuns with it, but it was not the 5-man stun break every 15s people are trying to present.

And it's an elite skill. There are several classes that have stun breaks with 20s or less cd as regular abilities. But guardian is here again stuck with worse skills because they are trying to help their allies, and doing a worse job than those classes anyway.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:You are overestimating the impact of group stunbreak. The range is very short, so unless your group was stacked when they got stunned,you can't even reach them with it. Sure, that's not to say you don't ever break ally stuns with it, but it was not the 5-man stun break every 15s people are trying to present.

And it's an elite skill. There are several classes that have stun breaks with 20s or less cd as regular abilities. But guardian is here again stuck with worse skills because they are trying to help their allies, and doing a worse job than those classes anyway.

Devs are not playing guardian class, you can see that from updates 2014-today. They just nerf things, its like me playing Spellbreaker and cant kill FB and bam next update I am nerfing FB skills and elite and buff some meaningless item like spirit weapons and buff to Spellbreaker. (they can buff spirit weapons and signets every update just for buffing something and they still will suck). Guardian is in a good spot from 2012.

@scott.5391 said:every single skill u listen is a self stun break and only one utility, maybe 2, you mentioned are used in WvW in this current meta and in this current meta you just get corrupted and stunned again when u use these skills. Do you even play wvw organised group play? i dont think you do, judging from what you said. Current meta is full of AoE Corrupts and AoE CC's. The need for a useful USEFUL skill like liberation is needed and i think the devs knew this and hence why it was added to the game. This change however was a massive hit to the support offered and needed from this skill. You need to, as a guardian, support you team mates but this change has left this skill almost useless. I think a split on this skill for WvW and reducing its ammo count recharge back to 15s for WvW is the right move.

I know most of the skills I listed are self use only, but good job on pointing that out. My point was entirely different though.

So basically when you fight a zerg you rely on someone else's stun break? I think you do judging from what you said.If you rely too much on that alone I just cannot believe you can be effective as in those fights a 0.5s delay in your reaction will mean you are dead anyway.And you have no guarantee that the guardian has the ability off cooldown, is in your range or noticed you need a stun break unless you all hug each other and you get an aoe stun or the guardian is god himself and somehow can see all the skills being thrown at you by another 20 to 30 people all this while avoiding red circles, boon corrupts, bubbles, and the list goes on.

everyone needs personal stun breaks, I was just merely pointing out that guardians can already be close to being immune to stuns and this makes them really hard to kill.Adding another stun break with a short cooldown (15 seconds is a short cooldown) which helps not only you but others as well only makes things even more difficult to balance.

Now if you can keep discussing this without being emotional you might get a more civilized answer from me too.

@Saiyan.1704 said:Considering it directly effects Radiance Retaliation builds, the change really hurts...They could have at least increased retal duration for those FB power builds...

I do not think Anet knew they even exist. Here I was hoping stoic demeanor is changed for something that make FB power builds competitive, the primary source of retaliation gets nerfed. They could have at least split the change, since the only reason this skill is used in PvE was for the retaliation.

Man since PoF release the balance dev have been sucking pretty bad?. It is not only unbalanced designs, but the I have seen tons of examples where the genuinely do not understand how skills are used. Another example is the SW 1 sec CD, as if that had anything with them not being used.

@Zantal.4798 said:

@scott.5391 said:every single skill u listen is a self stun break and only one utility, maybe 2, you mentioned are used in WvW in this current meta and in this current meta you just get corrupted and stunned again when u use these skills. Do you even play wvw organised group play? i dont think you do, judging from what you said. Current meta is full of AoE Corrupts and AoE CC's. The need for a useful USEFUL skill like liberation is needed and i think the devs knew this and hence why it was added to the game. This change however was a massive hit to the support offered and needed from this skill. You need to, as a guardian, support you team mates but this change has left this skill almost useless. I think a split on this skill for WvW and reducing its ammo count recharge back to 15s for WvW is the right move.

i Main guardian in WvW guild raids, i know the importance of this skill and how much this skill is needed. Group comp and synergy builds that work well together, guards taking liberation to stun break its party members, is normal. other classes have at most 1 stunbreak on a high CD. Yes it is needed and yes you do rely on others to stunbreak you in this current wvw meta while playing as a tight nit group of players together, acting as one. lol your comment was funny.

@"Deemo.6094" said:i Main guardian in WvW guild raids, i know the importance of this skill and how much this skill is needed. Group comp and synergy builds that work well together, guards taking liberation to stun break its party members, is normal. other classes have at most 1 stunbreak on a high CD. Yes it is needed and yes you do rely on others to stunbreak you in this current wvw meta while playing as a tight nit group of players together, acting as one. lol your comment was funny.

And your comment is not objective at all.This above is an objective comment, you could only come up with with "lol your comment was funny."

and

Which classes have only 1 stun break? and on top of that only on long cooldown (at most 1 means only 1) please expand on this.

Next time try to address what was actually pointed out instead of resorting to such lame tactics and vaguery.They hardly work on me and all you can hope to achieve is to annoy me enough that I will lose interest in this conversation and then you can truly feel at home in your cozy echo chamber.

Not sure why it was changed but it hurts the flow of mantras. But given the track record of Anet devs, they will never revert it.

Ok so our group stunbreak+stab got nerfed, but mesmers still have their Mantra of Concentration. Theirs is also a group skill but is way more powerful than ours now. 15 sec CD on charge, stunbreak, 5 sec aegis, 5 sec quickness and 5 sec stability.... and it's not even an elite skill, just a utility... really? Sure it has only 2 charges, but I'd rather have two charges at 15 sec cd than 3 charges at 25 sec cd.

Mantra of Liberation: 3 charges - stunbreak - 25 sec. charge CD - 6 sec. stability - 6 sec. retaliation.

Mantra of Concentration: 2 charges - stunbreak - 15 sec. charge CD - 5 sec aegis - 5 sec. stability - 5 sec. quickness.

As I said earlier, 20 sec CD would have been much better, but looking at other professions skills it seems ours just got gutted.

Is this really balanced?

@Urkraft.2603 said:Ok so our group stunbreak+stab got nerfed, but mesmers still have their Mantra of Concentration. Theirs is also a group skill but is way more powerful than ours now. 15 sec CD on charge, stunbreak, 5 sec aegis, 5 sec quickness and 5 sec stability.... and it's not even an elite skill, just a utility... really? Sure it has only 2 charges, but I'd rather have two charges at 15 sec cd than 3 charges at 25 sec cd.

Mantra of Liberation: 3 charges - stunbreak - 25 sec. charge CD - 6 sec. stability - 6 sec. retaliation.

Mantra of Concentration: 2 charges - stunbreak - 15 sec. charge CD - 5 sec aegis - 5 sec. stability - 5 sec. quickness.

As I said earlier, 20 sec CD would have been much better, but looking at other professions skills it seems ours just got gutted.

Is this really balanced?

I'm sorry, but there is so much wrong about what you wrote.

• The Mantra charges apply Stability and have a 15s re-use timer.
• The recharge timer for charges is 30s.
• When successfully channeling the Mantra, the Mesmer gains boons (Aegis, Quickness, Stability)

Additionally, though I'm not 100% sure since I haven't used it in actual fights for a while, the stunbreak only applies to the Mesmer.

Since a while people have gone rampant and mindlessly complain about Mesmers even though they quite often don't have a clue what's actually going on or how the class works. Even worse, many people tend to exaggerate or blow things out of proportion. I don't mean this in a offensive way towards you. You clearly just misunderstood or misread the tooltipps. But still, misinformation easily creates a huge amount of dissfaction and hostility amongst players. In this case, the things you posted are objectively wrong but there are people who might take them as truth. It's at a point where I'm rarely inclined to post on the forums anymore. And I'm not saying this as a Mesmer main but rather as a person who enjoys playing almost all classes GW2 has to offer.

That aside, comparing two skills on different classes without context never worked well and surely doesn't lead to a productive outcome.

@Xaylin.1860 said:

I'm sorry, but there is so much wrong about what you wrote.

I wasn't going after mesmers, and I just went with the information from gw2 wiki. You are right I should have checked it in-game personally. After reading it again I can see you are right about the aegis and quickness. That is for the mesmer only, but the stunbreak and stability is for nearby allies, but as you mentioned it's actually 30 sec. recharge rate on charges. I misread the wiki information.

Sorry about that I didn't mean to spread misinformation.

But thanks for clearing that up, the skill now makes sense and is obviously not comparable to the FB elite.

Mesmers are now devs favorite class to play, it was scourge before nerf now mesmers, next will be warriors then thieves then rangers and guardian and revs eating popcorn in "a good spot".

liberation nerff was a hard purpose nerff to FB to support other reasons supported by and reported by díckheads.