Make THIEF the BIS in PVE/RAID DPS — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Make THIEF the BIS in PVE/RAID DPS

Oldgrimm.8521Oldgrimm.8521 Member ✭✭
edited April 2, 2018 in Thief

make Thief the top DPS in PvE content,

this game is one or among of the few that thief/assassins/rouge archetype that is WEAK in a raiding/pve environment,

we do not offer alternative builds that is great in support while dishing out dps. Anet tried to give us support build via Dead Eye, but it does not cut what the group needs.

make us great in one thing, DPS

in that note, I offer/propose some changes:

  1. make executioner( DA 3 ) with its current iteration, an additional effect is in place. Vulnerability, Strictly PVE only, for every 5th stack of Vulnerability additional 2% damage modifier is added, so the final 25th stack will yield an additional 10% more damage.

  2. Potent Poison ( DA 1), change to Potent poison and Agony, in addition to its current effect, whenever you apply poison you apply torment,

  3. No Quarter ( CS 1 ) make it flat 300 ferocity

  4. Ferocious Strike ( CS GM minor ) remove the health threshold, because when the boss dips below 50% we lose dps because of its functionality now.

  5. Twin fangs, make it 10% from 7% in it's current state

  6. dagger training to poison training, applicable to all weapons not just dagger chance to poison enemies added icd 3 secs to counter application (all game modes)

  7. ankle shots to achilles weakness - applicable to all weapons not just pistol on cripple application increase icd from 8 to 15 secs (all game modes)

  8. swindler's equilibrium to assassins equilibrium - applicable to all weapons not just sword, increase ICD from 30 to 40secs (pvp and wvwv) still 20 secs in PVE

This changes are made for core thief to ensure that both specs benefit from the over buff

these are some idea(s) i had in mind to make Thief Great in PvE content,

Comments

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2018

    I agree, there is nothing wrong with a class / build that only specialises in one area but if the thing in question can't tank / support / provide AoE dmg then it should be top tier in the one category that's left: single target damage. Sadly thats not the case for thief since the damage ranges, depending on the weapon set, from mediocre to bad.

  • true,

    where every class has a 33k+ DPS minimum on their Power build with support,

    but thief has only 30k dps power on a selfish build

  • i got 32k+ with rifle on the golem without spending much time on it. so it can probably go up to 35k or more. I just wanted to try it on deimos and it was pretty good. I think it can also share boons and cc

    isn't condi dd still really good?

  • Cobrakon.3108Cobrakon.3108 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tails.9372 said:
    I agree, there is nothing wrong with a class build that only specialises in one area but if the thing in question can't tank / support / provide AoE dmg then it should be top tier in the one category that's left: single target damage. Sadly thats not the case for thief since the damage ranges, depending on the weapon set, from mediocre to bad.

    I just think they hate thief. In fact I wouldnt categorize it as a thief/rogue/assassin.... It is a circus acrobat.

  • its just sad that the thief/assassin/rouge archetype is under performing to what it is expected to do, just to do damage,

    i hope this thread will create some traffic and attention from the developers

  • Irokou.3215Irokou.3215 Member ✭✭
    edited February 12, 2018

    heres hoping for an assassin elite spec that really sells the idea of a melee single target executor.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Irokou.3215 said:
    heres hoping for an assassin elite spec that really sells the idea of a melee single target executor.

    So basically you want D/P the Elite Spec?

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • guys please do not bring PVP stuff in this thread, this is aimed for PvE content, since developers has the ability to split damage modifiers for PvE and sPvP/WvW.

    makeTHIEFgreatAGAIN PvE

  • Irokou.3215Irokou.3215 Member ✭✭
    edited February 13, 2018

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Irokou.3215 said:
    heres hoping for an assassin elite spec that really sells the idea of a melee single target executor.

    So basically you want D/P the Elite Spec?

    Maybe to some extent, but not quite. I am specifically referring to it being PVE oriented (the context of this thread) which D/P by nature is not.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Irokou.3215 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Irokou.3215 said:
    heres hoping for an assassin elite spec that really sells the idea of a melee single target executor.

    So basically you want D/P the Elite Spec?

    Maybe to some extent, but not quite. I am specifically referring to it being PVE oriented (the context of this thread) which D/P by nature is not.

    So basically you want D/D the Elite Spec?

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • wow is >>>>> that way

  • Boulder.3589Boulder.3589 Member ✭✭✭

    Maybe devs care about open world feel of professions? I don't agree with that, balance should happen at the raid and maybe fractals level only. I'm saying this because deadeye rifle already felt op soloing in openworld vs what others can do before this patch. And with the substantial buffs after patch its even better. Maybe they take that into account because GW2 has a higher concentration of casual open world players compared to other mmos.

  • you can be overpowered in any class in open world PvE, even a full Nomads geared class is acceptable in open PvE.

    but when end game PvE, eg fractals and raids, meta is leaning towards other DPS classes, we are one of the last pick in establishing an end game PvE.

    even if we "thieves" initiate our group in raids and fractals, we are filled last, the last "we have no CHOICE" argument.

    Make THIEVES Great Again

  • @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    So basically you want D/D the Elite Spec?

    NOW WE'RE TALKIN

    Stay low. Move fast. Kill first. Die last.
    ~Ghost Ren~

  • Considering the thief does very little otherwise, I agree. Thieves suffer from the old school necromancer problem, in that all of their abilities don't translate well into PVE. I.E., you rarely have to chase your target or escape from your target.

    On occasion, I.E. the unbound guardian fixates on ch00by fr00by n00b, there are times where I find my DPS slowing to a crawl because enemies walk out of my AoEs and rooted attacks. Playing a thief, this isn't a problem. However, not playing a thief, it is rarely a problem.

    The giraffe is an animal which, for sociopolitical arguments, I like to pretend does not exist.

  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2018

    Except theif does good damage in pve, has the ability to bring CC with no damage loss, and has 3 viable dps builds. This thread is literally complaining over nothing.

  • Aplier.7829Aplier.7829 Member ✭✭✭

    30k dps is already more than enough for any encounter. Above that is for showing off or trying to minmax the marginal gains on your speedruns.

    Putting raw benchmark numbers aside for a moment, I find thief to be one of the most consistent classes in actually performing it's dps. It is so naturally full of evades and repositioning that it literally dances around just about any melee mechanics without issue. Condi isn't too reliant on ground effects for it's dps (and power not at all) so even if the boss is running around the room a lot the thief's dps doesn't drop off much if at all (unlike, let's say, Weaver where most of the big hitting are skills are ground targetted aoe's).

    For utility thief comes with a strong amount of breakbar support on short CD pretty much baseline (basi venom, since we dont need our elite for the rotation). The new steal bundles are actually a relevant utility in most fights, and a bit of a dps buff for some of them too (looking at you magnetic bomb and soulstone venom). Power thief can easily spec into giving itself more self-healing than it could ever need at only a minor dps loss. They both even come with cleave damage baked into their abilities (though for condi adds will dilute venoms, but it's just 100% free dps for power). Power provides free vulnerability stacks (they still have to come from somewhere), and even has a pretty much free utility slot that in benchmarking is just used to squeeze out a couple hundred dps from conditions, but can easily be swapped into actual utility skills in a raid.

    If raid fights were just a target dummy then yes I'd also be complaining that other specs have it too good and should be brought down in strength. But they aren't, and thief still offers solid output coupled with a high amount of passive healing and evasion-based defenses, and some interesting and relevant utility options.

    (Though for the record, I do still believe that thief could use a small nudge upwards and some specs should be brought back down to earth, but no one deserves to "be bis in all raids just cause".)

  • Boulder.3589Boulder.3589 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2018

    The 31.5k dps is very average in raids, maybe even a little low and requires kneeling (rooted) the whole time. And it's single target instead of the cleaves most specs get. Moving/switching targets to do raid mechanics causes more dps loss than any other class, at least it's somewhere near the top in that regard. Requires a good amount of skill and practise to keep that dps loss to a minimum while repositioning to do mechanics or else your dps drops a lot, remember you started with average dps. So a lot of effort just to not drop below average dps, and single target disadvantage. It should be high dps if you pull it off just right. I'm very happy with this patch's buffs , but just a little more, were so close.

  • Oldgrimm.8521Oldgrimm.8521 Member ✭✭
    edited February 15, 2018

    Now that SC has released the elusive DPS raid benchmark for high end PvE https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7xr60v/sc_updated_benchmarks_0602_patch/, they also acknowledge despite the buffs for DE, and the changes that alacrity, that affected in the slightest for DD condi, our damage is still lackluster compared to other Power DPS and Condi DPS,

    why bring a thief when other classes can do better in both damaging aspects, (this is a rhetorical question that does not need to be answered).

    are we not supposed to be one of the best damage/DPS dealers in game, in a game where our support is almost non existent.

    PS. According to SC's webpage they only included thieves and to an extent necromancer DPS because its their leaders main class' (sounds like they are taking pity on this two classes)

    Make Thieves Great Again In PvE

  • Oldgrimm.8521Oldgrimm.8521 Member ✭✭
    edited February 28, 2018

    And please extend the raid steal bundle to other PvE aspects as well e.g. detonate plasma.

    I would love to use it in fractals if given the chance

  • Cobrakon.3108Cobrakon.3108 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2018

    I'm going to say it... DD, D/P, S/D, S/P is not real Thief/Rogue/Assassin play. It is more like a circus acrobat with pointy objects. They backed off the stealth and big bursts and made thief into a mobile pecking unit. Thief is not an assassin. Its more akin to a swarm of bees, a light weight martial artist that doesn't know bruce lee moves but jumps in and out of combat trying to slowly wither away the enemies HP. Its the perfect +1 and decapper, while in pve it feels out of place. OUR HIGHEST DAMAGE ROTATION WAS BASED ON A CAMERA ANGLE EXPLOIT!

    Thief should be renamed that's all. Just call it something akin to acrobat, shadow porter something. IF you want proper stealth assassin game play this is not the right game.
    If you want a proper back stabbing class, this is not the right game.

    Ironically MESMER is closer to a stealth assassin class.

  • Irokou.3215Irokou.3215 Member ✭✭
    edited March 2, 2018

    Hence why I suggested an assasin themed elite spec focused purely on top spot melee single target dps. Offhand sword anyone? Granted I know that is not an immediate fix by any means. More realisticaly I feel dagger/dagger SHOULD be the go to single target setup like how it used to be; forgoing good cleave and safety for raw backstabing dps. Quite frankly a handful of professions have an intentity crisis in either pvp or pve where the their established theme does not translate well at all into actual gameplay. A cohesive profession kit and capabilities are key to making encounters more balanced letting everyone have a real purpose.

    Given that thief is overshadowed dps wise and stealthing has been rendered very niche in pve, its safe to say that the thief needs a touch up like what mesmers got with their phantasm reworking. Then again, thief by nature is more pvp oriented much like necro, so it may boil down to unsuitable encounter design. Oh well.

  • Yep, we could use some pve revamps, since this thread is all about high end PvE,

    Whenever I see the notes on Snow crows, that power thief is useless in all game/RAID encounters and they only kept it because their leader us a diehard thief fan, it makes my heart sunk.

  • Zedek.8932Zedek.8932 Member ✭✭✭

    Excelsior.

    Not sure, man.
    The problem of threads like this is similar to walking into a kindergarden class and ask whether they want ice cream or broccoli.

    I see you say "raid", but then, yelling "make it better by * insert buffs * does no good in every way.
    What I also fail to understand why many people - not all, this thread is for once comparibly diverse - go for damage. For example, I love Deadeye because I am a solo player. I sit (or stand) on a ledge from behind and shoot people in the head while the others can have their twitchy gameplay. Unlike Ranger I do not have annoying pets or stupid weaponry. When stuff is getting rough I pull my daggers and go melee. This is what defines the qualities for this profession for me.

    Many peole just yell "DMG" as if they want to mount something on MacOS, or "profession X has Z" (but leave out we have Y, too).

    I have yet to see a thread in the Thief forums that does not contain comparisons off the reality, too much theorycrafting, simple screams for buffs or a mad DeceiverX :-)

    Excelsior, my name is Zedexx; Asuran Deadeye and assassin.
    The Hunter / 2x Darksteel Pistols / 2x Whisper's Secret Daggers and my Springer. That's all I need and trust.
    "We [Asura] are the concentrated magnificence!"

  • Oldgrimm.8521Oldgrimm.8521 Member ✭✭
    edited March 3, 2018

    The only thing that the devs can do right now is increase/decrease damage modifiers, they don't have the resources to do a revamp on thief as of this time.

    It was a bold move to revamp mesmers and it's a good thing, and I hope that we can be revamped as well into a well rounded class that has multiple capabilities e.g. group healing, tanking support etc.

    Even raiding and fractal community to some extent are getting fed up on the new holy trinity of druid-chrono-bannerslave.

    And if they only insist/want thieves to be pigeon holed to only one aspect e.g. damage, then we should be able to dish out insane dps in high end pve

  • Yureii.4236Yureii.4236 Member ✭✭
    edited March 6, 2018

    I think increased initiative gain while under the effects of quickness or alacrity would help with the dps a bit

  • TwiceDead.1963TwiceDead.1963 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2018

    @Yureii.4236 said:
    I think increased initiative gain while under the effects of quickness or alacrity would help with the dps a bit

    Alacrity I definitely get, but Quickness is a scary prospect when it comes to Deadeye, as they have the capability to apply themselves with very long quickness durations, with only 30% Boon Duration applied to themselves... Hell with 38% boon duration you can sustain Quickness for an entire Minute, and if RNGsus favors you with the right cantrip theft (or if you're fighting Mesmers), you can keep it going even longer.

    Granted, you sacrifice some offensive stuff to achieve that.

    ... I keep forgetting this is a Raid scenario, PvE, where you basically have Perma-quickness anyway. Nevermind~

  • Yureii.4236Yureii.4236 Member ✭✭

    @TwiceDead.1963 said:

    @Yureii.4236 said:
    I think increased initiative gain while under the effects of quickness or alacrity would help with the dps a bit

    Alacrity I definitely get, but Quickness is a scary prospect when it comes to Deadeye, as they have the capability to apply themselves with very long quickness durations, with only 30% Boon Duration applied to themselves... Hell with 38% boon duration you can sustain Quickness for an entire Minute, and if RNGsus favors you with the right cantrip theft (or if you're fighting Mesmers), you can keep it going even longer.

    Granted, you sacrifice some offensive stuff to achieve that.

    ... I keep forgetting this is a Raid scenario, PvE, where you basically have Perma-quickness anyway. Nevermind~

    Yeah, itd be a really sweet synergy with Be Quick or Be Killed, maybe a bit OP but itd definitely be fun

  • Aplier.7829Aplier.7829 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yureii.4236 said:

    @TwiceDead.1963 said:

    @Yureii.4236 said:
    I think increased initiative gain while under the effects of quickness or alacrity would help with the dps a bit

    Alacrity I definitely get, but Quickness is a scary prospect when it comes to Deadeye, as they have the capability to apply themselves with very long quickness durations, with only 30% Boon Duration applied to themselves... Hell with 38% boon duration you can sustain Quickness for an entire Minute, and if RNGsus favors you with the right cantrip theft (or if you're fighting Mesmers), you can keep it going even longer.

    Granted, you sacrifice some offensive stuff to achieve that.

    ... I keep forgetting this is a Raid scenario, PvE, where you basically have Perma-quickness anyway. Nevermind~

    Yeah, itd be a really sweet synergy with Be Quick or Be Killed, maybe a bit OP but itd definitely be fun

    Definitely OP. Quickness already increases the rate at which the Thief takes actions, which with our relatively strong autoattack on every weapon already makes a very good dps buff.

    If anything, it should be alacrity that provides a faster initiative regeneration, as alacrity 's purpose is to shorten cooldowns on skills and the initiative system acts like a shared cooldown on our weapon skills.

  • let my lucid dreaming be in action for this very moment,

    PVE only.

    Minor Master trait: unrelenting strikes, whenever you gain fury, the effects of quickness will be 50% more effective' the new resulting quickness speed will be 75%

  • Oldgrimm.8521Oldgrimm.8521 Member ✭✭
    edited April 1, 2018

    Thief is going down hill in every patch. Now that they hit pvp wvwv hard,

    Maybe its time to make amends and at least make thieves better in pve,

    If this downward trend continous we will be the unwanted class in every game mode

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2018

    Instant DE Mark would be a nice start to things. Then add in a 'Get 50% more effectiveness from vuln' to one of the core traitlines (12.5% dmg increase at full vuln stacks).

    Change DE Renewing Gaze to, instead of giving Regen every time a Marked target dies, give a small damage buff - either a small stackable bonus, or a slightly larger but not-stackable to help with target switches.

    I can't speak much for DD, but IIRC Deadeye's Revealed Malice trait could also use some love - I don't think it's been used, ever. DE trait options seem to have a dmg option, a utility/support option, and a defensive option. I find Revealed malice utterly fails as a dmg option. I thiiiink pvp DE's take iron sight anyway, so this wouldn't screw anyone over.

    They could rework some of our unused utilities - I don't think I've ever seen anyone use Scorpion Wire, Caltrops, of Smoke Screen. Hell, they could double the damage of all our stealth attacks in PvE as a whole (though I'm thinking of backstab specifically). Doing so might have Revealed Malice see some usage.

  • to add on the OP that i have.

    remove the weapon restriction on some traits outside specialization.

    eg. like Curennos.9307 suggested.

    1. dagger training to poison training, applicable to all weapons not just dagger chance to poison enemies added icd 3 secs to counter application

    2. ankle shots to achilles weakness - applicable to all weapons not just pistol on cripple application increase icd from 8 to 15 secs

    3. swindler's equilibrium to assassins equilibrium - applicable to all weapons not just sword, increase ICD from 30 to 40secs

    and we will not touch staff master and rifle silent scope to maintain elite specialization flavor

  • Fierlor.2697Fierlor.2697 Member ✭✭

    You know a class is broken when you walk into a raid lobby and there are constantly missing entire classes. I will see necro and revenant from time to time, never any thieves. I want to raid but I only play thief. Feels_bad_man.jpg.

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