Ever Notice How Fancy Moves Hardly Ever Pay Off?

As an example. Dodge>Counter Attack>Stun>Attack>Dodge>Stun>Attack. So your thinking... Man that other guy should be dead by now... right? Wrong! Well i'm here to tell you about the culprit. Its sustain... and its power creep and sustain gets higher but so does power creep. This makes fights super long. It forces your hand to put all your points into one method of killing. Hybrid builds are few and far in between. If u can perform james bond level of counter attacks, stuns, and dodges, that SHOULD MATTER MORE than the build you play. There is a dirty not so secret reason for this: Anet has simplified the game and made it less about active mechanics and more about passive mechanics and one button mechanics. Firstly they made many of the utilities useless on many classes. Secondly they added junk abilities. The other day I was running by a duel with a necro and mesmer and I seemed to avoid them pretty well but still got condis put on me and aoe damage. There is simply too much passive play. There should be an Axiom that states that: "If your enemy couldn't dodge, got stunned, got counter attacked several times in close succession, they should be dead."

Its the true meaning of balance. It is what I believe level headed players want. All classes need proper punishment for missing dodges and getting countered, (and add counters if there aren't any truly viable counters.)

People have forgotten what balance looks like. They think that because they find abilities and specs and rotations that work, and see results that the game must have some decent balance, but the truth is that since people who are skilled can still win, they just shrug and move on. Just because its not a complete RNG winning, doesn't mean the game is balanced or that the game play is quality. People could be masters at crushing paper bags and there might be a champion, but it doesn't mean the game is fun or even balanced. Its all smoke and mirrors. The team gave up on balance years ago now its just builds and rock paper scissors with very few mechanical variety and counter play.

Some classes, their abilities feel absolutely worthless. Some of the intended play styles feel so close to just auto attacking its cringe worthy.

I feel the solution is to back off the sustain, and especially with certain classes such as warrior and druid and ELE but then also back off the power creep so that people aren't getting one shotted left and right. Lets face it there are too many get out of jail free cards and abiltites are lack luster. Specific abilties for much of the classes feel like they are 1/30th of how impactful they should be, while passives slowly but surely give easy advantages simply by traiting for them.

I hear you and agree.

Would be a lot of work to achieve and at this point I'm not sure it's even likely ir possible anymore in gw2, but it would certainly be better.

TLDR: Typical thief whining that his alpha combo doesn't autokill everything he looks at. We are in the burstiest metas in years, yet thieves still whine about sustain.

If your combo isn't killing them, perhaps you should find a new combo.

Well, we don't all have dodge spam, stun spam, target loss spam, and 2k aa spam... but ele sustain, really? Those who do spec for it and are left alone since they can't pressure anything. Clones, maybe.

@Crinn.7864 said:TLDR: Typical thief whining that his alpha combo doesn't autokill everything he looks at. We are in the burstiest metas in years, yet thieves still whine about sustain.

If your combo isn't killing them, perhaps you should find a new combo.

This, however OP does have a point. When you're facing setups of firebrands scourges and spellbreakers with revs thieves and engis( actually this is also true with many other setups), you get what he's saying. You gotta do a huge effort and play really smart in order to, sometimes, get a close win against players that aren't going to do much.

Builds have a too big part in the match outcome, and there lacks explicit counters

Can we please look past his class and try to see that he actually has a point? Pretend he has a Guardian or Ranger or whatever else Icon and read it again, please.

EDIT: On a side node, I do believe classes with the ability to sustain themselves are important to have. But i am more of a bigger fan of more active sustain, through evades and blocks and maybe life steal. Having more healing abilities than you can press is obviously bad but it is not the only culprit here. You can also look at the issue the other way around. Powercreep on Power Specs has forced Powercreep on Sustain Specs. It is hard to point what is cause and what is effect. Some classes even manage to have both of those aspects combined. Think about S/D Thief, that mixes both spammable dodges and strong pressure. Imho that kind of build shouldn't exist.

Tone down the powercreep and nerf everything would be the simple solution, but I hardly see them doing that. They can barely fix it to make it balanced on a "powercreeped" scenario.

If you know when to burst you can burst everything down. If you are hoping to burst a DEFENSIVE build with all their cds up to me it seems more like you should not be able to. Sadly if you are not playing as 5 on ts you can't share precious info for a roamer like "this guy use this cd and this cd, so in the next 20 seconds he will be defenseless, please come to gank him". The problem here is not the skill itself it is the lack of communication in spvp. The game mode is not structured to be played in solo queue and offer a fun experience.

I obviously blame Anet for not offering a team league or 5 queues, 3 queues etc. etc.

Condition build are like that. They require a lower skill cap to be played effectively and are more forgiving since you need less offensive attributes, that's just how the game design is, but honestly after this patch after being killed by someone i don't feel anymore like it's their class to have killed me and not the player.Conquest is a team game and it is structured in a way where you can NOT fight everything. If you want that kind of pvp there are a lot of other games that offer that.It would be like pretending in a MOBA to be able to fight a carry in late game with a support while the both of you are full hp with all cds.

We can argue that invulnerability are ugly for the gameplay. Sucks to have to wait 10 sec of Elixir S, it is more annoying than OP. Sure there could be other options, but honestly here it's more a fact of "fun" than balance or not balance.

remember this is an mmo not an fps. I wonder if any other games are more like you describe? honestly curious.

elementalist in a nutshell

@"Cobrakon.3108" said:Its the true meaning of balance. It is what I believe level headed players want.

Guild Wars 2 will never be this game you dream of it being because the visual noise is far too extreme. In team fights it's pretty much impossible to keep track of what everyone is doing. It was bad enough when scrapper lightning fields, chronomancer wells, and dragonhunter traps blew up all over my screen; but rather than scale back on all the visual noise, they just doubled down on it with Path of Fire. You now have the laser light show that holosmiths present between Hard Light Arena and their F5 attacks and the sandstorm garbage that scourges put everywhere.

The even bigger problem is that this heightened visual noise coincided with the decision to stop baking in huge tells/telegraphs to high damage skills. Just look at how skills like One Hundred Blades operate compared to what elite specs today are given. You were punished for poor positioning, misusing your healing skill, or mismanaging your endurance economy. And instead of tackling the core root of the issue, they've opted instead to just balloon everyone's sustain out of proportion. It's an easier fix, so I completely get it.

But if you want a game that lets you perform "James Bond" level combos/counterplay, go play Black Desert Online.

If you want a game that follows your axiom of "If your enemy couldn't dodge, got stunned, got counter attacked several times in close succession, they should be dead," then play Elder Scrolls Online.

Fighting an ele: dealt some damage, oh they healed back to 100% dealt some damage, oh they healed back to 100% dealt some damage, oh they healed back to 100% dealt some damage, oh they healed back to 100%...Fighting a mesmer: Some visual clutter here, a couple seizures there, lemme be invulnerable for 20+ seconds, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand you're deadFighting a necromancer: Nice orange squares you got there...it would be a real shame if I gave you every single red box in the game @_@Fighting a thief: Evade, Evade, Evade, stealth spam, stealth spam, stealth spam, infinite gap closers, infinite gap closer, infinite gap closers, evade, evade... oh you actually hit me...short bow port, reset fight, repeatFighting an engi: Stealth, cc, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, massive damageFighting a ranger: CC pew, root, pew pew pew pew pew pew pew, 0 damage, 0 damage, heal back to full, heal back to full, stealth, ancestral grace...fight resetFighting a guardian: Block, block, health back to full, block, block, invul, invul, has every boon in the game, blocks you on facebook, blocks you on instagram, heal back to full, give up, watch them afk at midFighting a rev (in WvW): Running, running, running, dead...looks at combat log...20k Coalescence of RuinFighting a warrior: Block, block, block, evade, evade, 0 damage, 0 damage, 0 damage, passive healing negating my damage, evade, evade, block, block, get cced, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, and you're dead gg gf

• Moral of the story, all classes are oppressive in their own special way

@K THEN.5162 said:Fighting an ele: dealt some damage, oh they healed back to 100% dealt some damage, oh they healed back to 100% dealt some damage, oh they healed back to 100% dealt some damage, oh they healed back to 100%...Fighting a mesmer: Some visual clutter here, a couple seizures there, lemme be invulnerable for 20+ seconds, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand you're deadFighting a necromancer: Nice orange squares you got there...it would be a real shame if I gave you every single red box in the game @_@Fighting a thief: Evade, Evade, Evade, stealth spam, stealth spam, stealth spam, infinite gap closers, infinite gap closer, infinite gap closers, evade, evade... oh you actually hit me...short bow port, reset fight, repeatFighting an engi: Stealth, cc, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, massive damageFighting a ranger: CC pew, root, pew pew pew pew pew pew pew, 0 damage, 0 damage, heal back to full, heal back to full, stealth, ancestral grace...fight resetFighting a guardian: Block, block, health back to full, block, block, invul, invul, has every boon in the game, blocks you on facebook, blocks you on instagram, heal back to full, give up, watch them afk at midFighting a rev (in WvW): Running, running, running, dead...looks at combat log...20k Coalescence of RuinFighting a warrior: Block, block, block, evade, evade, 0 damage, 0 damage, 0 damage, passive healing negating my damage, evade, evade, block, block, get cced, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, and you're dead gg gf

• Moral of the story, all classes are oppressive in their own special way

As funny and true as this is. That is bad. This is what happens when everyone gets the mindset of "if all classes are op, none will be op". Only way to undo this type of crap is nerf everything. So when you see nerfs, don't compain about the nerfs. Just hope that they continue to nerf other things and bring attention to other things that need to be nerfed so we can achieve a good balance.

@Cobrakon.3108 said:There is simply too much passive play.

I think this is the key part. It constructs a astonishing low skillfloor in combat and limits you in good plays. You notice this especially when fighting 1vx. If there are 3 people against you with the typical builds it allmost doesnt matter how bad they are because you get stuck at one point in outplaying the buildmechanic. Im pretty sure at least 50% of the warri players dont even notice someone proccing Last Stand.

@Abazigal.3679 said:

@"Crinn.7864" said:TLDR: Typical thief whining that his alpha combo doesn't autokill everything he looks at. We are in the burstiest metas in years, yet thieves still whine about sustain.

If your combo isn't killing them, perhaps you should find a new combo.

It's not so much the builds, but some classes are just flat out either strong or weak vs particular classes. Examples being Ranger vs scourge; cakewalk for the ranger to win. Scourge vs warrior or guardian; cakewalk for the scourge to win (usually).

You see, the game actually is "balanced" for the most part, it's just that players don't seem to understand that the balance exists between class to class, not build to build. Nobody can expect say a particular Rev build to be balanced against every other build against every other class in the game. That's asinine at best. That Rev build will be good against particular classes, and weak against others.

The problem with the majority of the players who play this game is expect "their" build, on "their" class to be able to outperform others if they "perceive" that "their" skill level is better. Then when they run into a class/build they have no hope in hell against, they whine whine whine whine whine whine whine, and whine some more. Example, scourge nerfs. They aren't meant to be engaged by melee, they are meant to be engaged by ranged, but players simply can't be bothered to jump on the appropriate class to deal with them. Nope, they'd rather complain until they're blue in the face.

The only thing not balanced about this game, is when players are able to stealth out and disengage from a fight at will and run away. That is something that never should have existed. The simple solution to that would have been; if you're in combat, you cant stealth. Again, even this isn't much of a problem anymore, because those who run rangers can keep them revealed long enough to kill them. Even scourges dropping shade bombs on areas where the ever so predictable "stealth stomp" is expected to occur, makes short work of the stealth classes.

I have no problem with builds that can sustain a lot, as long as they can't also do a lot of damage at the same time.

In the same way no one should be able to single-handedly defeat someone else in less than 3 seconds from the very start of a fight without having to build up might, vulnerability and other effects, nobody should be able to endlessly stay in combat against 2 or more enemies without having to disengage and recover eventually, specially while under the effects of constant poison.

Even if the fights are 1v1, no one should be able to stay in combat endlessly while also being able to take out any enemy that comes along. There has to be some lasting damage that builds up so when the next enemy comes along if you didn't leave combat your health didn't have time to go back to 100%.

Dear anet, scissors are fine, pls nerf paper~Rock

@K THEN.5162 said:Fighting an ele: dealt some damage, oh they healed back to 100% dealt some damage, oh they healed back to 100% dealt some damage, oh they healed back to 100% dealt some damage, oh they healed back to 100%...Fighting a mesmer: Some visual clutter here, a couple seizures there, lemme be invulnerable for 20+ seconds, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand you're deadFighting a necromancer: Nice orange squares you got there...it would be a real shame if I gave you every single red box in the game @_@Fighting a thief: Evade, Evade, Evade, stealth spam, stealth spam, stealth spam, infinite gap closers, infinite gap closer, infinite gap closers, evade, evade... oh you actually hit me...short bow port, reset fight, repeatFighting an engi: Stealth, cc, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, massive damageFighting a ranger: CC pew, root, pew pew pew pew pew pew pew, 0 damage, 0 damage, heal back to full, heal back to full, stealth, ancestral grace...fight resetFighting a guardian: Block, block, health back to full, block, block, invul, invul, has every boon in the game, blocks you on facebook, blocks you on instagram, heal back to full, give up, watch them afk at midFighting a rev (in WvW): Running, running, running, dead...looks at combat log...20k Coalescence of RuinFighting a warrior: Block, block, block, evade, evade, 0 damage, 0 damage, 0 damage, passive healing negating my damage, evade, evade, block, block, get cced, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, and you're dead gg gf

• Moral of the story, all classes are oppressive in their own special way

Hahahaha, you made my day with this! xD

@"Ario.8964" said:As funny and true as this is. That is bad. This is what happens when everyone gets the mindset of "if all classes are op, none will be op". Only way to undo this type of crap is nerf everything. So when you see nerfs, don't compain about the nerfs. Just hope that they continue to nerf other things and bring attention to other things that need to be nerfed so we can achieve a good balance.

How about along with unique class mechanics we also get unique class drawbacks:Ele: They gain weapon swap BUT in order to gain access to their elements, they have to be running the related specializationMesmer: Using too many skills in a short amount of time mind fùcks yourself and causes your cast times to be temporarily 3 times longerNecro: Every boon they receive, and the boons of nearby allies is automatically corruptedThief: They can keep their evades, mobility, and stealth...BUT their total health cannot be greater than 1Engi: Heat is now a profession wide mechanic and for every 10% of heat it inflicts you with a stack of burning, causing you to lose 75% of your health at max heat.Ranger: If the pet dies...they dieGuard: A guard loses 2% of it's health each second for each virtue on cooldownRevenant: They have a given amount of resource that slowly regenerates and once it runs out, they're locked out of all their skills except the basic attack...wait a second this sounds familiarWarrior: Their lore is rewritten to be slave gladiators and have their in combat movement speed reduced by 50% due to a convenient ball and chain attached to their ankle

Now that the condi meta is over, powercreep/ sustain is the problem again.This forum is priceless :D

@Malafaia.8903 said:Now that the condi meta is over, powercreep/ sustain is the problem again.This forum is priceless :D

Different people complaining about each.

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Malafaia.8903 said:Now that the condi meta is over, powercreep/ sustain is the problem again.This forum is priceless :D

I could name 3 people that was complaining from a long time and just changed the subject.And i'm saying 3 because this 3 i could really tag here provinding links to the topics, but it would bring too much salt to this sea.Now i just watch and laugh.

@K THEN.5162 said:Fighting an ele: dealt some damage, oh they healed back to 100% dealt some damage, oh they healed back to 100% dealt some damage, oh they healed back to 100% dealt some damage, oh they healed back to 100%...Fighting a mesmer: Some visual clutter here, a couple seizures there, lemme be invulnerable for 20+ seconds, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand you're deadFighting a necromancer: Nice orange squares you got there...it would be a real shame if I gave you every single red box in the game @_@Fighting a thief: Evade, Evade, Evade, stealth spam, stealth spam, stealth spam, infinite gap closers, infinite gap closer, infinite gap closers, evade, evade... oh you actually hit me...short bow port, reset fight, repeatFighting an engi: Stealth, cc, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, massive damageFighting a ranger: CC pew, root, pew pew pew pew pew pew pew, 0 damage, 0 damage, heal back to full, heal back to full, stealth, ancestral grace...fight resetFighting a guardian: Block, block, health back to full, block, block, invul, invul, has every boon in the game, blocks you on facebook, blocks you on instagram, heal back to full, give up, watch them afk at midFighting a rev (in WvW): Running, running, running, dead...looks at combat log...20k Coalescence of RuinFighting a warrior: Block, block, block, evade, evade, 0 damage, 0 damage, 0 damage, passive healing negating my damage, evade, evade, block, block, get cced, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, and you're dead gg gf

• Moral of the story, all classes are oppressive in their own special way

As much as I want to agree with that, that's just the lazy way people find out how to play the game, don't tell me because it's better or because it's viable, no it ain't all of it. It's the EASY way and nobody feels like challenging themselves with something that requires CRITICAL thinking to play as, As OP said "Ever Notice How Fancy Moves Hardly Ever Pay Off?" People want to win and just win, they don't care if they are good or not, they just want that sweet sweet win without any shame.

I've been in bronze(Braindead, it's not fun), been in silver(Decent but even thought creativity is there, no synergy goes), been in gold(Somewhat of a sweet spot if you ask me, you may get caught off by someone's build unusual composition, lots of fun.), been in plat(Toxicity raises along cruise control builds.), been nearly legend (Probably the same as plat but worst, never again will I try to get there, you'll know why.)

After a year of playing this game, which in mostly PvP, I realize that like many games, it's the same garbage that ends up being no fun if you care too much and do the same stuff as everyone else rather than "Fancy moves".

I've got better fun and reward out of being creative and as most elitist say "Competitively disavantaged" because in their book if you're not from meta battle, you're a waste.

That being said I stopped caring and just let my mind go and do whatever I wanted because who's gonna stop me, I can still do unranked and ranked the way I want anyway, don't care if I ruins someone's day, the majority of the time it's teamwork that wins, not builds, but they like to blame it on you anyway even thought you're playing differently and do well, you still lost and that's apparently your fault.

Being that the other part of the spectrum is the player himself, you that despite knowing how everyone just play the same builds, you keep dying over and over to them, those builds aren't unstoppable, they are just "viable" because it plays well in the hands of a large majority, all of their options and benefits are not permanent, if you know them, you know how to play against them so.

We could argue that their traits, weapons and utilities are just the best synergy but that's wrong. It's not exactly the best, just the easiest, know your benefits and weaknesses and you'll win with nearly anything that makes sense to use in specific scenarios. (For example, in no way a banner warrior will ever be relevant however the elite banner can allow for some surprising edgy comebacks.

Of course doing a random build is not gonna work, you have to work your way to make something that flows well, but that's really just it, after that it depends on you to not screw up. It gets sickening to fight the same stuff, but that's something that in no game you will ever be able to change.

The power creep isn't as bad as people say it is, you can make very decent things with or without expansions. All it takes is a proper use of the build, to fight or not fight. After all it's about contesting points that people play the most. So obviously a bunky build surely can do better but is no immortal. There's also 3 points on the map, not just 1. Even if you'd tell me they have 3 bunkers on each, there's this thing called diminishing returns, it's easy to steamroll a bunker if you're on the right team, hence why TEAMS are what matter before builds. In Stronghold, it's different and I would agree with need more maps for that along more players, conquest or "domination" is also just as stupid as the easy builds, it's not hard to do and figure rotations, but again teams bruh teams.

For WvW I didn't play enough of that, but roaming alone for a few to get a specific skin was plenty fun.

I wouldn't be posting that if the patch recently released existed, I would wholeheartedly agree, but since it's released. I was able to get very creative on all my professions with some success and some failures.

But one thing for sure, they need to nerf holosmith autoattacks, most of my failures were literally due to the fact that any light armor melts to it, medium barely can take a hit, while it takes quite the boon rip/timing to not fuck up as heavy. It's ridiculous, how much of a faceroll it is.

Well, there was a time all those abilities were cards to play, not a repeatable mess.

The reason hybrid builds can't succeed is because the only thing that REALLY makes them hybrid is the amulet choice. The trait-lines do not offer NEARLY enough meaningful choices.

So here's what happens. If there is a really good hybrid build out there, then it's most likely because either 1) the DPS portion of that build is super OP (and going all dps would be better, even if not as fun to play, than the hybrid) ... or 2) the support portion of that build is broken OP (and going full support/bunk would always be better, even if not nearly as fun to play, than the hybrid).

And THEN the broken half of the hybrid spec, whether it's the dps or the support side, gets nerfed because... well it needs to be. And the end result is the nerfed dps OR support build is brought more in-line with the rest of the profs, but the hybrid build is gutted and can no longer compete at all (even if it's more challenging and fun to play).

Case in point: hybrid Firebrand builds and the 2/6/18 nerfs.

The lesson: don't go hybrid. The only result is heartbreak.

@K THEN.5162 said:Fighting an ele: dealt some damage, oh they healed back to 100% dealt some damage, oh they healed back to 100% dealt some damage, oh they healed back to 100% dealt some damage, oh they healed back to 100%...Fighting a mesmer: Some visual clutter here, a couple seizures there, lemme be invulnerable for 20+ seconds, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand you're deadFighting a necromancer: Nice orange squares you got there...it would be a real shame if I gave you every single red box in the game @_@Fighting a thief: Evade, Evade, Evade, stealth spam, stealth spam, stealth spam, infinite gap closers, infinite gap closer, infinite gap closers, evade, evade... oh you actually hit me...short bow port, reset fight, repeatFighting an engi: Stealth, cc, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, massive damageFighting a ranger: CC pew, root, pew pew pew pew pew pew pew, 0 damage, 0 damage, heal back to full, heal back to full, stealth, ancestral grace...fight resetFighting a guardian: Block, block, health back to full, block, block, invul, invul, has every boon in the game, blocks you on facebook, blocks you on instagram, heal back to full, give up, watch them afk at midFighting a rev (in WvW): Running, running, running, dead...looks at combat log...20k Coalescence of RuinFighting a warrior: Block, block, block, evade, evade, 0 damage, 0 damage, 0 damage, passive healing negating my damage, evade, evade, block, block, get cced, massive damage, massive damage, massive damage, and you're dead gg gf

• Moral of the story, all classes are oppressive in their own special way

Being the Ele: Cleanse, cleanse, evade, atunement swap, evade, heal, evade, attunement swap, cleanse, cleanse, heal, heal, heal, heal, cleanse, cleanse, cleanse.Everyone is oppressive.

Being the war: Attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, attack.