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Ranger/Druid/Soulbeast post 2/06/2018 - Balance discussion/suggestions


Trevor Boyer.6524

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Core Ranger

  • Underperforms in pve vs. Druid and Soulbeast.
  • Underperforms in wvw vs. Druid, Soulbeast and in general every other class. It is on par with Rev/Herald/Renegade in terms of no job role.
  • Underperforms in spvp amongst higher tier play beginning around plat 1 and higher vs. every other class and specialization outside of its counterpart specialization Druid which is currently the strongest side node monkey 1v1 and 1v2 option. <- I'll get to that later. The problem is its lack of disengagement for a ranged character with low sustain amongst most other classes having very direct teleportation and powerful gap closing skills.It's difficult to buff core specializations because buffing core specializations also buffs HoT and PoF specialization use. I don't expect any core class to perform as well as HoT and PoF specializations and in terms of actual balance, I view Core Ranger to be a good example of a balanced class amongst the cores. Thus I don't expect or feel the need for Core Ranger to be balanced/buffed in any way but I do feel there should be a few polishes:
  • Hilt Bash on Ranger Greatsword #5 is buggy. A player can be standing directly in front of a target and swap to Greatsword while quickly pushing #5 and it will for some reason, almost every time, make the Ranger Hilt Bash into a random direction as if the player had slightly turned the Ranger's position. This needs to be fixed. This is a problem in competitive game modes for Core Ranger, Druid and Soulbeast.
  • Signet of Stone should be made into a 2s invuln with a stun break and have the 80s CD turned down to 40s. This is largely due to how Signet of Stone effects the Druid's performance concerning competitive play.
  • Lightning Reflexes should be updated with the ammo system. It should regenerate 1 usage every 20s and cap at 2x uses. This would greatly enhance the Core Ranger and even Soulbeast's ability to survive against direct teleportation and frequent gap closers.

Druid

  • Debatably the #1 most important pve team component, right alongside of Chronomancer. The Druid is currently the strongest team support in terms of heal factor and damage support through boons, aside from Quickness & Alacrity. The Druid even has the option of playing a very viable power DPS if it so chooses. In other words, the Druid is not struggling in pve. In fact, it is questionable as to if Grace Of The Land might stacking should be slightly nerfed to enable the viability of other support specs and calm down Bunker Druid DPS in competitive settings.
  • Underperforms in wvw. Again, it is on par with Rev/Herald/Renegade in terms of no job role. Whether it is PUG zerg or an organized zerg or just small havoc, Druids aren't really situated well for what the wvw meta demands. I don't see any way to change this without an enormous overhaul to the class and since it fares well in pve and spvp, I don't see any reason to suggest further buffing it into godhood just for the purposes of wvw.
  • Highly identified in spvp conquest as the most powerful side node holder and 1v1 class after the 2/06/2018 patch. This is a touchy topic because Druid is the only thing that Ranger has going for it in competitive settings but it is a little bit too powerful at this point. For the sake of achieving a good game balance, it needs a bit of attention but it needs the right kind of attention and not the wrong kind.Here is a previous thread that I posted in the spvp forum. It goes into much deeper detail about the state of Druids in the competitive scene -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/27812/druid-post-2-6-2018-patch-druid-players-give-feedback/p1 <- This post is the biggest reason why I wrote this thread. It was suggested to me to repost it here in the class section, where apparently the balance team would prefer that you post anything regarding class balance. The original thread goes into much greater detail than what I'll write here but in nutshell, here is what it's saying: "Druidic Clarity and Celestial Shadow are the source of why Druid's survive as well as they do ~ they need slight changes."
  • Druidic Clarity should be a boon type proc that cleanses 4 conditions each second, for 3 seconds, rather than cleanse 13 conditions immediately. Maybe even elongate it more than that such as, 3 condis per second for 4s. This significantly lessens the Druid's ability to immediately mitigate all condi DPS and it makes it harder for the Druid to heal & reset the fight.
  • Celestial Shadow should have its Stealth and Super Speed reduced from 3s each to only 2s each, upon activation of the trait. This gives the Druid less time to disengage, reposition and full heal before once again being revealed and being prone to targeting. This change alone, would make it much easier to stay on a Druid.

Soulbeast

  • Now underperforming in higher end pve. I mean it gets the job done in dungeons/fractals but in raids, no one wants it anymore as it deals significantly less condi DPS than other specs and doesn't have any power specs to compare to power specs on other classes either.
  • Absolutely no job role in wvw meta. Sure, you can follow a PUG zerg with a power LB setup but it isn't optimal and no organized zerg will want you. Even roaming with havoc groups, Soulbeast ends up being targeted first because it has low self sustain and low disengage potential. While playing in T1 servers, I have actually seen PUGmanders declare that Rangers, Soulbeasts and even Druids, won't be allowed in the squad because they can't afford to waste the subgroup heal slots. I honestly don't blame them.
  • Held back in spvp for the same reasons Core Ranger is held back, too little of disengage and too little of self sustain to be viable in higher tier Ranked and ATs.Of course the suggested change to Lightning Reflexes under Core Ranger would certainly help with its disengage, competitively. But Soulbeast needs more than that, concerning pve performance and wvw performance. I'm sure there are plenty of suggestions from other forum users concerning Soulbeast overhauls and I would love to see them posted but for now, I will suggest easy fixes to existing functions. Mainly DPS increase which would enhance the performance in pve, wvw and spvp.
  • Twice as Vicious should last 10s instead of 4s.
  • Furious Strength should work for physical and condition damage.
  • Unstoppable Union Should also grant 2s of Super Speed when leaving Beast Mode to encourage better cycling and better disengage.

There are much BIGGER suggestions that I'd like to see happen but those are not typically the kinds of things that we see Arenanet implement, so I figured I'd keep it light & easy. If there are any other suggestions/comments/criticism, please keep it clean & constructive.

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My input (I'm talking from pve perspective):

Soulbeast Twice as Vicious needs an increase in it's coef, not the duration itself. If it was like 20% instead of 5% it would open gameplay options, creating rotations with things like chaining different sb mode cc skills with weapon skills. As it is, it's usually not worth it to go out of your way in a rotation to include a cc, because the dps gain is so minimal or non existant.Stances all feel to me a bit too high cd. That is normally okay if it has a skill has high impact, but honestly, apart from the elite while using a power build, they don't. That could be solved by adding a -20% cd reduction to some trait.Predator's Cunning is another trait that could improve in regards to numbers, both the dmg and the sustain from it could improve, as it stands, they're not even close to things like thieves invigoration precision and other passive heals other classes have access to.

Core A change to "on evade" rather than on dodge, on Light On Your Feet is needed, it has always felt lackluster and unnoticeable trait.Some splits also don't make any sense, why does spike trap have higher cd in pve? Why Splitblade does lower dmg in pve?

Druid Glyph of Unity... how many times have you used it and felt like "wow, this made an impact" yeah, none. It needs a bettter design rather than being just a free proc for the seed.

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So OP, let me understand, you want to remove the only invulnerability that the ranger has, in exchange for a stupid stunbreak with 40 seconds cooldown? Can you explain me where is the problem in a 80-second cooldown skill that is only effective against power type damage?

Lightning Reflexes needs a selectable direction, exactly like warrior's Whirlwind Attack.

Druidic Clarity probably needs to offer less cleans to the druid in exchange for more condi cleans for the group.

I agree with you on Celestial Shadow.

As for Soulbeast, i think that the spec needs more than buffs on damage modifiers. The spec needs more utilities on daggers, access to stealth, better cooldown and unique utilities to stances, and a big rework to Beastmode and its skills.

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I don't like most of your suggested changes (asides from just fixing GS5) because I don't agree with your assessment of the situation.

PvE/Raid side: Viper SB is fine for two reasons.1) Stance share damage shows up as other peoples dmg so it makes viper SB look like it's doing less than it actually contributes.2) SB can bring spotter and spirits on top of stances which makes it great support DPS but Druid is always there so SB doesn't need to bring them.https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7pgecv/ln_restricted_5_man_sabetha_kill_no_druid_or/I don't think Druid needs to be replaced but other viable/optimal metas exist without Druid and SB is in that meta because of reason 2.PvE/Raid: Power SB.An easy PvE split from PvP/WvW is to give sic'em a lower CD in PvE only. I also agree with Kai on having the "rune of scholar" bonus from loud whistle functioning in beastmode. That's all the changes I think it needs. I didn't recommend core Ranger buffs here because I play power druid in t4 a lot and actually think it's optimal compared to viper druid.

SB in PvP/WvW: Merge with a bird. Use F1 for a 1200 range leap on a 10 second CD. Swap to GS for another leap. QZ and less QZ give super speed. I don't see disengage as that much of a problem. If the Devs think even more super speed should be on SB, I would prefer they put it on Essence of Speed. Name checks out. It would not have synergy with QZ since super speed doesn't stack but it would give F3, dagger 3, strider's defense, instinctive reaction, WhaO and sigil of agility super speed on a 5 second ICD.

Druid in general:I would be fine with changing Druidic Clarity to clear 4-5 conditions in an aoe as mentioned by Kappa on top of the stunbreak. I also think Seed of Life needs a buff. It used to clear 2 conditions and the glyph trait now drops "Lesser" Seed of life but they do the same thing. Make it so that CA2 (but not the lesser seeds) clears 3 conditions and have a larger radius. It's a light field that can be blasted for another condi clear. For PvP, DC would clear 4-5 condi on the druid and pet on side nodes so a bit of a nerf but CA2/3 combo would clear 4 more in an aoe and make druid stronger in team fights. For WvW, it would help with Druid zerg presence for clearing conditions in an aoe. ForPvE, DC would continue to be a niche pick.

Give spirits better actives. Buff shortbow/change lotf. Etc etc. I could go on but those are the changes that I think would make ranger specs more balanced/desirable in the modes they are weaker in.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Core Ranger

  • Underperforms in pve vs. Druid and Soulbeast.
  • Underperforms in wvw vs. Druid, Soulbeast and in general every other class. It is on par with Rev/Herald/Renegade in terms of no job role.
  • Underperforms in spvp amongst higher tier play beginning around plat 1 and higher vs. every other class and specialization outside of its counterpart specialization Druid which is currently the strongest side node monkey 1v1 and 1v2 option. <- I'll get to that later. The problem is its lack of disengagement for a ranged character with low sustain amongst most other classes having very direct teleportation and powerful gap closing skills.It's difficult to buff core specializations because buffing core specializations also buffs HoT and PoF specialization use. I don't expect any core class to perform as well as HoT and PoF specializations and in terms of actual balance, I view Core Ranger to be a good example of a balanced class amongst the cores. Thus I don't expect or feel the need for Core Ranger to be balanced/buffed in any way but I do feel there should be a few polishes:
  • Hilt Bash on Ranger Greatsword #5 is buggy. A player can be standing directly in front of a target and swap to Greatsword while quickly pushing #5 and it will for some reason, almost every time, make the Ranger Hilt Bash into a random direction as if the player had slightly turned the Ranger's position. This needs to be fixed. This is a problem in competitive game modes for Core Ranger, Druid and Soulbeast.
  • Signet of Stone should be made into a 2s invuln with a stun break and have the 80s CD turned down to 40s. This is largely due to how Signet of Stone effects the Druid's performance concerning competitive play.
  • Lightning Reflexes should be updated with the ammo system. It should regenerate 1 usage every 20s and cap at 2x uses. This would greatly enhance the Core Ranger and even Soulbeast's ability to survive against direct teleportation and frequent gap closers.

Druid

  • Debatably the #1 most important pve team component, right alongside of Chronomancer. The Druid is currently the strongest team support in terms of heal factor and damage support through boons, aside from Quickness & Alacrity. The Druid even has the option of playing a very viable power DPS if it so chooses. In other words, the Druid is not struggling in pve. In fact, it is questionable as to if Grace Of The Land might stacking should be slightly nerfed to enable the viability of other support specs and calm down Bunker Druid DPS in competitive settings.
  • Underperforms in wvw. Again, it is on par with Rev/Herald/Renegade in terms of no job role. Whether it is PUG zerg or an organized zerg or just small havoc, Druids aren't really situated well for what the wvw meta demands. I don't see any way to change this without an enormous overhaul to the class and since it fares well in pve and spvp, I don't see any reason to suggest further buffing it into godhood just for the purposes of wvw.
  • Highly identified in spvp conquest as the most powerful side node holder and 1v1 class after the 2/06/2018 patch. This is a touchy topic because Druid is the only thing that Ranger has going for it in competitive settings but it is a little bit too powerful at this point. For the sake of achieving a good game balance, it needs a bit of attention but it needs the right kind of attention and not the wrong kind.Here is a previous thread that I posted in the spvp forum. It goes into much deeper detail about the state of Druids in the competitive scene -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/27812/druid-post-2-6-2018-patch-druid-players-give-feedback/p1 <- This post is the biggest reason why I wrote this thread. It was suggested to me to repost it here in the class section, where apparently the balance team would prefer that you post anything regarding class balance. The original thread goes into much greater detail than what I'll write here but in nutshell, here is what it's saying: "Druidic Clarity and Celestial Shadow are the source of why Druid's survive as well as they do ~ they need slight changes."
  • Druidic Clarity should be a boon type proc that cleanses 4 conditions each second, for 3 seconds, rather than cleanse 13 conditions immediately. Maybe even elongate it more than that such as, 3 condis per second for 4s. This significantly lessens the Druid's ability to immediately mitigate all condi DPS and it makes it harder for the Druid to heal & reset the fight.
  • Celestial Shadow should have its Stealth and Super Speed reduced from 3s each to only 2s each, upon activation of the trait. This gives the Druid less time to disengage, reposition and full heal before once again being revealed and being prone to targeting. This change alone, would make it much easier to stay on a Druid.

Soulbeast

  • Now underperforming in higher end pve. I mean it gets the job done in dungeons/fractals but in raids, no one wants it anymore as it deals significantly less condi DPS than other specs and doesn't have any power specs to compare to power specs on other classes either.
  • Absolutely no job role in wvw meta. Sure, you can follow a PUG zerg with a power LB setup but it isn't optimal and no organized zerg will want you. Even roaming with havoc groups, Soulbeast ends up being targeted first because it has low self sustain and low disengage potential. While playing in T1 servers, I have actually seen PUGmanders declare that Rangers, Soulbeasts and even Druids, won't be allowed in the squad because they can't afford to waste the subgroup heal slots. I honestly don't blame them.
  • Held back in spvp for the same reasons Core Ranger is held back, too little of disengage and too little of self sustain to be viable in higher tier Ranked and ATs.Of course the suggested change to Lightning Reflexes under Core Ranger would certainly help with its disengage, competitively. But Soulbeast needs more than that, concerning pve performance and wvw performance. I'm sure there are plenty of suggestions from other forum users concerning Soulbeast overhauls and I would love to see them posted but for now, I will suggest easy fixes to existing functions. Mainly DPS increase which would enhance the performance in pve, wvw and spvp.
  • Twice as Vicious should last 10s instead of 4s.
  • Furious Strength should work for physical and condition damage.
  • Unstoppable Union Should also grant 2s of Super Speed when leaving Beast Mode to encourage better cycling and better disengage.

There are much BIGGER suggestions that I'd like to see happen but those are not typically the kinds of things that we see Arenanet implement, so I figured I'd keep it light & easy. If there are any other suggestions/comments/criticism, please keep it clean & constructive.

Core Ranger :

  • Signet of Stone is good like it is now, you can lower the CD to 64 s if you use Marksmanship + Brutish Seals. Also you can have the passive one who will be triggered when your HP fall below 50% , with a CD of 56 s if you use Stoneform+Brutish Seals. For a stun break you have a lots of utilities , usual I use Quickening Zephyr and Lightning Reflexes because I use Survival traits line. Those 6s of invulnerability vs power damage are very good, don't broken for just one stun break

Druid :These : "Druidic Clarity should be a boon type proc that cleanses 4 conditions each second, for 3 seconds, rather than cleanse 13 conditions immediately. Maybe even elongate it more than that such as, 3 condis per second for 4s. This significantly lessens the Druid's ability to immediately mitigate all condi DPS and it makes it harder for the Druid to heal & reset the fight.Celestial Shadow should have its Stealth and Super Speed reduced from 3s each to only 2s each, upon activation of the trait. This gives the Druid less time to disengage, reposition and full heal before once again being revealed and being prone to targeting. This change alone, would make it much easier to stay on a Druid."

are not changes for balance but changes for nerfing druid.

Soulbeast:

  • Twice as Vicious should last 10s instead of 4s.Would be nice

  • Furious Strength should work for physical and condition damage.I don't know about this, I didn't tested to see if it is only for power damage, maybe you have right

  • Unstoppable Union Should also grant 2s of Super Speed when leaving Beast Mode to encourage better cycling and better disengage.I am totally agree with this one, otherwise this trait it's almost useless, many time you are already in beastmode when a fight start.

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based on the current pvp metagame neither ranger, druid or soulbeast deserve ANY NERFS AT ALL. Not until the mesmer burst damage gets fixed, the overly tanky guardian gets fixed, the stupid condition spam from necro's gets fixed and the monumental amount of support and buffs And DPS that firebrands can put out.

Almost every profession is horribly overtuned right now other than Ranger. Thieves are what they have always been, high risk gankers they just do it from range now and you have to be very aware of them. Ele needs buffs of some kind but not like what the mesmer just got.

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@Prophet.1584 said:based on the current pvp metagame neither ranger, druid or soulbeast deserve ANY NERFS AT ALL. Not until the mesmer burst damage gets fixed, the overly tanky guardian gets fixed, the stupid condition spam from necro's gets fixed and the monumental amount of support and buffs And DPS that firebrands can put out.

Almost every profession is horribly overtuned right now other than Ranger. Thieves are what they have always been, high risk gankers they just do it from range now and you have to be very aware of them. Ele needs buffs of some kind but not like what the mesmer just got.

OMG Prohet, I am so agree with you, just I said the same thing on other post , that ranger don't deserve any nerf till mesmer get nerf.

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I don't even know that it's been addressed in this thread or not but I'm just getting really tired of people trying to argue this way or that about combat roles because their self imposed vision of what roles the elite specs should be.

"Druid shouldn't be able to fight well, it's a Healer," "Soulbeast should be able to duel better, it's a DPS" or etc and just QQ for days about opinionated nonsense.

Core Ranger is and always has been the perfect dueling class. Elite specs combine what the core class is good at supposedly with a new combat role.

You want to see Druid better at supporting? It doesn't need nerfs, it just needs Glyphs to be powerful enough at supporting to be worth taking over selfish utility options.

You want Soulbeast to be better at fighting/dueling? It works exactly the way Holosmith does. Core class mode and then enter damage mode. The difference? Holosmith doesn't make you do mental gymnastics to get to its defensive utility and doesn't have a mediocre traitline of awful traits. Oh, and all of its skills and traits actually still work with the elite spec and the modes it provide.

It's also getting obnoxious to be having these micro level discussions. How is it that we aren't talking about Daredevil when Daredevil is in the exact same spot Druid is in, except that 1 creates momentum while the other stalls it? Completely uncontested at decapping, basically impossible to kill in a 1v1 (because they can just leave anytime and you can't stop them), but with a low teamfight presence because they don't have the tools to deal with the cleave and they'll die if focused. It's nearly identical to Druids situation, so why aren't we talking about nerfing it too since apparently we're nerfing things that are good at niche roles that exploit bad players making mistakes?

I've already expressed my opinions about how the nerfing process should go should the angry babies get their way, but let's also be clear that there is more class bias at work because people have never liked it when Ranger's have a viable build and role bias because people want this game to be an FPS paced game that doesn't support things that aren't damage or support noodles.

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@jcbroe.4329

  1. Not a single argument has broken out in this thread, surprisingly.
  2. No one ever brought up class roles.
  3. Core Ranger loses in 1v1 to everything except Thieves, Necros, other Core Rangers.
  4. I said nothing about wanting Druids to be better supports. I said they were too hard to kill in the current meta, due to DC and CS.
  5. Soulbeast in no way functions like Holosmith.
  6. Daredevil is not in the same position as Druid. People use S/D Core Thief now because Daredevil was nerfed too much and Acrobatics buffed beyond belief. Upon this, Daredevil has only a slight bit more mobility than a Bunker Druid. The big difference in weight between the two is that Thieves do not kill Bunker Druids, they die to Bunker Druids. Bunker Druids kill everything in 1v1 in the current meta, side node contesting. Good Druids can even consistently win 1v2s with no plus.
  7. Did you just say that a Daredevil's ability to hold a node cap was identical to that of a Bunker Druid? oO
  8. Bunker Druid has been viable since the day it arrived. Right now it is overpowered and overly dominant at its role in conquest after the 2/06/2018 patch. I have been a Ranger main since year one and even I have to admit that with where they are taking current patching right now, DC and CS need attention.
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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

  1. I said nothing about wanting Druids to be better supports. I said they were too hard to kill in the current meta, due to DC and CS.

Also a mesmer, thief, spellbreaker are too hard to kill. Mesmer and Spellbreaker due to their huge defensive skills, thief due to his run and out and invisibility. I don't say in 1 vs 1 a druid can't kill a thief, ofc he can but only if that thief is too stupid to face the druid instead of hit and run, decap and run etc ... an alive thief (who can decap all the time ) is not a dead thief, right ? What about a bunker Firebrand? he is not hard to kill? Again the same problem, we ranger want to nerf our bunker class/build just because we are so honest/rightful people . (Please let me lol ...)

  1. Daredevil is not in the same position as Druid. People use S/D Core Thief now because Daredevil was nerfed too much and Acrobatics buffed beyond belief. Upon this, Daredevil has only a slight bit more mobility than a Bunker Druid. The big difference in weight between the two is that Thieves do not kill Bunker Druids, they die to Bunker Druids.

Take a look ... is not mine , but many ppl are agree with this ranking : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/18488/your-class-rankings-after-balancePS: I am not saying thief can kill a druid, but I can say that a thief is way better than a druid regarding decap and many times because of this you win a match.

Bunker Druids kill everything in 1v1 in the current meta, side node contesting. Good Druids can even consistently win 1v2s with no plus.

Just I am not agree with this. Being bunker and stay alive(for minutes) in 1 vs 1 (let's say druid vs firebrand or holo etc) dosen't mean he can kill everything. Still I didn't see a proper fight between druid and mesmer, both with the same lvl of skills. I bet mesmer will kill druid in the end.

  1. Did you just say that a Daredevil's ability to hold a node cap was identical to that of a Bunker Druid? oO

I read 2 times what @"jcbroe.4329" wrote, and I saw only what I already said too, that thief is best class for decapp , he didn't say that thief can hold a node like a druid ...

  1. Bunker Druid has been viable since the day it arrived. Right now it is overpowered and overly dominant at its role in conquest after the 2/06/2018 patch. I have been a Ranger main since year one and even I have to admit that with where they are taking current patching right now, DC and CS need attention.

I think you have an overestimated opinion about druid ... there are another 2-3 classes who deserve the title "overpowered and overly dominant" in sPVP and WvW too.I mentioned WvW too, because every kitten change in sPVP will be affect WvW too. And now, druid is not even close to be OP in WvW. So, if in sPVP a druid can be a real pain when it comes about holding a node, definitely in WvW a druid is not OP, he can be easily killed. I killed every druid I met in WvW with my Soulbeast.

So, again, please when you guys, rangers, want to nerf your own class just because you think in sPVP Druid is too OP, first think about whole aspects and think about WvW too. Anet has split PVE and PVP (sPVP and WvW), but they didn't split sPVP and WvW.Please stop this post about nerfing our own class.

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Well since it's a thread about balance, and I'm sure it's a subject most people know about very well.

Can we talk about maybe what ArenaNet can do to buff older pets that haven't even been good since the game was released, aside from just the fun of using them of course. Plus I would personally think it would be easier to talk about class balance in terms of Soulbeasts/Druids/Core if our class mechanic itself actually had some diversity to it, since currently you don't even need to look in the direction of a rangers pet if they're using something that could be considered less then good like for example any Devourer.

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Ok on a serious note, click my profile and read the tournament threads that had been opened since PoF released. My guild leader and I have been the only two people organizing anything special for the pvp community since PoF arrival "1v1 tournaments". These are tournaments that people like Kronus and Naru show up to. I'm telling you that Druids kill everything in 1v1. This is viewed from watching these people practice and from streaming live tournaments on twitch with top players in it. If you haven't noticed that Druids are clearly the dominant class in spvp at this current state of patching, you aren't watching enough Jebro community tournament and you likely aren't deep enough into spvp to have recognized it yet. Argue it all you want but it's a strongly identified fact amongst top players.

And about Thief play, what you've said about Thief decaps is true at least in ranked. In ranked, the population is so low that you get teams like: plat, gold gold, silver, silver vs. plat, gold, gold, silver, silver. This means that most matches have 1 experienced player, a couple intermediate players and a couple not so experienced players. A Thief playing in matches like this still has opportunities to run around out of combat and decap uncontested nodes. However, in ATs "Automated Tournaments" when actual teams of leg, leg, plat, plat, plat is vs. leg, leg, plat, plat, plat there is very rarely ever a moment where a Thief can freely decap an uncontested node. So he is forced into situations where he has to stay and try to 1v1 someone on a node, which he loses the cap immediately due to needing to stealth and ooc disengage or he has to try and plus the right fights, only being on the node 2 or 3 seconds before needing to disengage, and if he doesn't drop someone immediately he isn't helping the team much and becomes a liability. Lately, no good teams play Thief in ATs. They play Firebrand, Scourge, Druid, Spellbreaker, Mirage or Holo. Thief has lost its role as a high speed mobile decap in competitive play. It is no longer able to reliably win 1v1 fights against Druid, Spellbreaker, Mirage, Holo. These classes are not far away in terms of mobility than a Thief is after so much patching and they over power it and make it retreat. Again, argue all you want but this is true. Druids have double peel abilities between Staff, Greatsword and even correct usage of about face with 1hand sword, even more with skirmishing quick draw and CA super speed, Spellbreaker has ever cycling GS #3, #5 even fast jolts with dagger and 25% run immob breaking movement skill trait, Mirage has blink and portal entre, Holo now has ammo system rocket boots and rifle #5. These classes are more than capable of chasing a Thief from mid to a side node and stopping his decap before he can decap. This is what happens amongst full teams of higher tier players in ATs. In other words, Thief is not in the same position as Druid when Thief is falling out of competitive meta but Druid is becoming staple side node player for fast decaps and defense on any good team.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 , like I said before, you are speaking only from POV of sPVP, and only about POV of few pro players who fights only in premade team. So basically you speak only from your POV for let's say ... another 10-30 ppl ?You realize that in GW2 are thousand of PVP players, some of them good, some very good, that think druid is not an S class, but an A class.I don't argue with you, because is pointless, and you know why ? because again you want to nerf druid only because you think he is too OP in sPVP (premade vs premade team) , without thinking of the impact to whole sPVP community, and WvW community. Go to WvW too, where are more than your 10-30 friends who are playing only sPVP, and see how the things are. Play for more than a month, daily and then , after you have a real idea about both sPVP and WvW area, how and what must be changed to ranger, comes with some ideas. BUT! in the same time, when you ask for a nerf to your class, keep in mind what other classes can do too, otherwise your class will become an hopeless class when others will be OP , like Mesmer it is now.I don't like ppl who are so good (because they play 24/24 the same sPVP thing) and get bored , and they come here with the idea to change something despite what community want, only because they want something new.My apologize if I offended you with my comment, but this is what I am thinking and believe me I am not the only one, most of WvW players are thinking like me.

PS: sPVP is not only about 1-2 tournament/year with 10-30 ppl ... remember what GW2 means ...

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"jcbroe.4329"

  1. Not a single argument has broken out in this thread, surprisingly.
  2. No one ever brought up class roles.
  3. Core Ranger loses in 1v1 to everything except Thieves, Necros, other Core Rangers.
  4. I said nothing about wanting Druids to be better supports. I said they were too hard to kill in the current meta, due to DC and CS.
  5. Soulbeast in no way functions like Holosmith.
  6. Daredevil is not in the same position as Druid. People use S/D Core Thief now because Daredevil was nerfed too much and Acrobatics buffed beyond belief. Upon this, Daredevil has only a slight bit more mobility than a Bunker Druid. The big difference in weight between the two is that Thieves do not kill Bunker Druids, they die to Bunker Druids. Bunker Druids kill everything in 1v1 in the current meta, side node contesting. Good Druids can even consistently win 1v2s with no plus.
  7. Did you just say that a Daredevil's ability to hold a node cap was identical to that of a Bunker Druid? oO
  8. Bunker Druid has been viable since the day it arrived. Right now it is overpowered and overly dominant at its role in conquest after the 2/06/2018 patch. I have been a Ranger main since year one and even I have to admit that with where they are taking current patching right now, DC and CS need attention.

I was preempting the discussion, you don't normally post in the Ranger subforum, but if you did you'd know I was addressing the inevitable.

So I'll skip everything you said that I don't need to address.

Yes, from a design standpoint, Holosmith and Druid are designed identifically. You have the core class, which functions identically with or without the elite spec traitline and does nothing different than it's regular toolkit besides the added utility skills, and then you have an "enter damage mode" where you have skills with cooldowns you can use to quickly try to burst something down. The code at work and function added is almost identical.

I never said that thief was good, ever, at 1v1ing. I said it was as good at it's prospective role of decapping as Druid is at bunkering. Both are niche roles, but decapping gains your team momentum and slows the enemy teams, while bunkering stalls the enemy teams momentum.

No, DC and CS don't need attention. Druid wasn't even being complained about until the round of unneeded, unnecessary buffs that happened at the end of last year, and none of those were even directed at Druid. If you'd like I can give you a history of every single meta build since HoT and where Druid sat in power relative to what was considered a meta PvP team composition. Spoiler; Druid wasn't even a "top" pick until around the release of PoF because Scrapper could fulfill a near identical role. So what you want to do is nerf an entire elite spec and all of it's builds and ultimately build diversity. You don't want to understand the mechanics at work, and you aren't even exploring why only this version of the Druid build versus the prior shout specs is competitive.

If it was really just the Druid traitline being "too strong," then every variation of a Druid build I could create within the realm of logically attempting to make a meta build would be viable. But since that isn't the case, then maybe we shouldn't discuss nerfing entire traits and traitlines because one variation of one build happens to be doing well.

And yeah, if you sense any hostility, it's because I've been dealing with the same discussion topic with the same limited/ineffective/bad ideas for months with the same people crying about the same things.

All your suggested changes do is nerf Druid out of a top tier PvP environment while keeping it's skill floor/ceiling relatively the same and keeping 99.9% of the community in the same exact position they're in now, crying about Druid because they can't kill Druids and asking for nerfs. Also, just like with the S/D thief situation, nerf Druid hard enough and people will do what I've already done and run Core Ranger instead. Cleanse and Superspeed on pet swap, WS + NM for cleansing and self sustain; that last round of PvP nerfs made Core have more than enough utility to compete in the metagame, and when people realize Core can duel just as well as Druid, we're going to have to deal with even more nerf threads.

If you want to see what I actually suggested, you should go back and sort through that thread you made on the PvP forums. Cross reference it with some of Sindreners and Valluns ideas and discussions and we might get somewhere that isn't just a malicious alteration to a class.

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I think you need to look at things from another perspective when coming to the ranger forums and saying something needs to be nerfed, which is perfectly fine of course since an open dialogue is always nice.

I'm not even going to try and go into if druid is over tuned or not since I'm sure you and jcbroe here know far more then I do. But I do know that ranger in general before the druid specialization came along has gotten the shit end of the shit end of the stick in most game modes. Hell even with their most recent specialization they can't do much more then just core ranger aside from cheesy builds you might see in wvw or boon sharing in pve.

As the years have gone by we've seen builds come and go for other classes, they've had their ups and downs and times where everyone would complain about them being op. Though the one thing that has stayed prevalent even to an extent today, is that people generally think rangers suck and it's not very uncommon for people to not want a ranger in their groups unless they're a druid for most of the game modes. As I said earlier you could make a case for soulbeast in pve, but that one is debatable in my opinion.

So again I'll say I probably don't have the same knowledge that you or some other people in this thread have about Druid in pvp. But can you really blame anyone for being resilient towards suggested nerfs for their currently only good spec.

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I'm pretty sure I've seen condi core ranger meta for quite a while in raids these last years.I'm pretty sure druid is almost in a balance state both in PvE and PvP.I'm pretty sure soulbeast would find it's niche if there wasn't this huge imbalance of damage output between professions. Soulbeast as it is, still top dps half of the others professions.

In PvP/WvW, the ranger is bound to suffer from it's mechanic: the pet. most of the core pet are bad and anet try very hard to make sure that we forget this fact by giving us new op pets that need tuning each time they are released.

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for anyone still questioning whether or not druid needs nerfs or buffs take a look at some things outside of the PvP perspective since the nerfs/buffs you call for could affect other modes or play.

https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

snowcrows just released their new benchmarks and ranger has a single meta dps build. 1. that's it. so other than the healing the druid provides and the buffs it brings there is 0 reason to have a druid in your raid group. in addition to that of the 9 professions in the game we are 6th in dps and the 5 professions above us have at least 2 build options that keep them above us.

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