GW2: How to kill a game making it pay 2 win

Step 1: Release an expansion and introduce new subclasses. Make sure the new subclasses are ridiculously overpowered compared to the old ones, but not by simply increasing some numbers. Make sure the new skills turn the entire combat system into a complete mess. Since the old classes can't compete anymore, everyone has to buy the addon, making it pay 2 win.

Step 2: Repeat step 1

Step 3: No further steps needed, the game is already dead.

We're currently somewhere between 2 and 3.

I would NOT say buying expansions is "P2W" ... ESPECIALLY in a b2p game (without a sub).

You know a better way to kill a game? NEVER MAKE ANY MONEY.

You can buy stronger skills for your character and the only way to pay for it is real money. That's the definition of pay 2 win. I'm not blaming them for trying to make money, I'm blaming them for killing the combat while trying to do so.

@cursE.1794 said:You can buy stronger skills for your character and the only way to pay for it is real money. That's the definition of pay 2 win. I'm not blaming them for trying to make money, I'm blaming them for killing the combat while trying to do so.

Core s/d thief is meta just fyi

@Deathok.2914 said:

@"cursE.1794" said:You can buy stronger skills for your character and the only way to pay for it is real money. That's the definition of pay 2 win. I'm not blaming them for trying to make money, I'm blaming them for killing the combat while trying to do so.

Considering the previous work of the balance team, they probably deem this a "happy accident". One single exception that is also very short lived so far doesn't really count as an argument when it's blatantly obvious what the elite specs are doing to the game.

but but but my core engi can take out most HoT and PoF builds

Even it was "p2w" in this case, I wouldn't care.

If the pvp centric people that don't think the game is worth another few dollars for an expansion every 2 years leave, I personally don't care that much and I don't think it will really hurt the games overall playerbase in numbers or affect anets earnings.

And if you play the base game that is for free and have so little fun playing it that you think it isn't worth buying the expansions I don't think you will suffer that much by leaving the game either.

Step 1 :Release new specs with the x-pack and a Spec called Renegate with lower damage in purpose , but with more teambuffs

Step 2 :See the community bicker for each others spec .......but in the same time , all say that Renegate need a buff to be on par ....

Step 3:Renegate gets attacks buffs

Step 4 :Whine about powercreep and P2W , and you get infaction for attacking ppl :P

Thing is, I bought the xpac and play pvp, still waiting to see that balance though - not powercreeping the other specs.

@cursE.1794 said:Step 1: Release an expansion and introduce new subclasses. Make sure the new subclasses are ridiculously overpowered compared to the old ones, but not by simply increasing some numbers. Make sure the new skills turn the entire combat system into a complete mess. Since the old classes can't compete anymore, everyone has to buy the addon, making it pay 2 win.

Step 2: Repeat step 1

Step 3: No further steps needed, the game is already dead.

We're currently somewhere between 2 and 3.

The real game killers are the players like you, spreading fake information in the community to less informed players trying to convince them that the game is dead.

1. To clarify things GW2 is not P2W, what you are trying to insinuate is just false. There are no advantages you can buy with real money. All gemstore and gold items have to do with cosmetic features.
2. The GW2 model is a B2P model, GW2 does not charge a monthly subscription, the way it is set up people buy the expansions to support the game and also to get the extra content associated with the expansion. All micro transaction have nothing to do with giving you an edge in game they are all cosmetic.
3. Stop spreading misleading or fake information on this forum or on any other platform if you care for this game.

@Adenin.5973 said:

If the pvp centric people that don't think the game is worth another few dollars for an expansion every 2 years leave, I personally don't care that much and I don't think it will really hurt the games overall playerbase in numbers or affect anets earnings.

And if you play the base game that is for free and have so little fun playing it that you think it isn't worth buying the expansions I don't think you will suffer that much by leaving the game either.

That's actually one of my viewpoints: No need to make the game pay 2 win, people will buy the expansion anyway if you add good pve content.

@Sombra.3246 said:

@cursE.1794 said:Step 1: Release an expansion and introduce new subclasses. Make sure the new subclasses are ridiculously overpowered compared to the old ones, but not by simply increasing some numbers. Make sure the new skills turn the entire combat system into a complete mess. Since the old classes can't compete anymore, everyone has to buy the addon, making it pay 2 win.

Step 2: Repeat step 1

Step 3: No further steps needed, the game is already dead.

We're currently somewhere between 2 and 3.

1. To clarify things GW2 is not P2W, what you are trying to insinuate is just false. There are no advantages you can buy with real money. All gemstore and gold items have to do with cosmetic features.
2. The GW2 model is a B2P model, GW2 does not charge a monthly subscription, the way it is set up people buy the expansions to support the game and also to get the extra content associated with the expansion. All micro transaction have nothing to do with giving you an edge in game they are all cosmetic.
3. Stop spreading misleading or fake information on this forum or on any other platform if you care for this game.

You're the one spreading misinformation by saying there are no advantages you can buy with real money. The new specs give you a clear advantage over players who didn't buy them.

After the recent re work, My core Mesmer is a reasonable match for some of the PoF builds. It's not quite there yet, but I do see ANET moving in a good balance direction. (Did I actually just type that? )

You're the one spreading misinformation by saying there are no advantages you can buy with real money. The new specs give you a clear advantage over players who didn't buy them.How am I spreading misinformation?GW2 was never completely F2P to begin with. They introduced F2P so people can try out the game and see if they like it before they invest and buy the game and expansions. This is not P2W this is B2P like I said in my earlier post.

There are no advantages you can buy with real money if you own the game and expansions. Saying otherwise is a lie and complete misinformation by your part.

@Ithilwen.1529 said:After the recent re work, My core Mesmer is a reasonable match for some of the PoF builds. It's not quite there yet, but I do see ANET moving in a good balance direction. (Did I actually just type that? )

As a mesmer, I'm not surprised you did. But while this meta is an improvement, it's so damn slow.... And there is a lot of growing pain. (Like the ridiculous clone spam introduced in this patch; not exactly OP, just ruins the flow of combat and the old combat system that made gw2 pvp so great)

@Loboling.5293 said:

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:After the recent re work, My core Mesmer is a reasonable match for some of the PoF builds. It's not quite there yet, but I do see ANET moving in a good balance direction. (Did I actually just type that? )

That "clone spam" isn't much, ( if any,) more than the old "infi shatter" Chronomancer build. The rest of the system is expressly designed to force Mesmer to shatter. Without the extra clones, my class would be trash tier at this point. I even get to confuse my enemies a little. This has been our Schtick from the beginning, but until recently didn't happen much.

@Legendary Defender.5631 said:

@cursE.1794 said:Step 1: Release an expansion and introduce new subclasses. Make sure the new subclasses are ridiculously overpowered compared to the old ones, but not by simply increasing some numbers. Make sure the new skills turn the entire combat system into a complete mess. Since the old classes can't compete anymore, everyone has to buy the addon, making it pay 2 win.

Step 2: Repeat step 1

Step 3: No further steps needed, the game is already dead.

We're currently somewhere between 2 and 3.

That's probably because most of the pvp players already left the game because of these issues. I remember discussions in this forum 1 year into HoT where it was the consensus among the pvp community that the powercreep is bad for the game. The people who are still there probably know deep down what's going on but are unwilling to accept it.

I saw this also back in the days when the highly anticipated Age of Conan was released as an unfinished bug fiasko. If you said something about how bugged this game is in the map chat you were flamed by the fanboys although it was obvious in what terrible state the game was.

There appears to be deep wisdom in the Orwell quote that the further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.

IF this is true, then why are scourges firebrands and spellbreakers the most played class in wvw? It's cuz they're specs are far more powerful then base specs and they are especially more overpowered in blobs as they are being used. Right now blobs consist of nothing but scourges, fb's and sb's with the occasional ele for healing and pugs running mesmers and soulbeasts. If these specs weren't overpowered then nobody would be playing them. The only way to get these classes and specs is to...........you guessed it...... you buy the expansion. You're paying for the overpowered classes therefore its pay to win. YOu can be apologetic all you want for anet and make excuses but remember being apologetic and making excuses is why the game mode is in such a poor state at the moment. Esp pvp and wvw.

You are confusing a balancing problem with B2P, they are two totally different things. If you cannot understand that I cannot help you.

@cursE.1794 said:You can buy stronger skills for your character and the only way to pay for it is real money. That's the definition of pay 2 win. I'm not blaming them for trying to make money, I'm blaming them for killing the combat while trying to do so.

Sorry to burst your bubble but this isn't the definition of pay to win. The problem is, people love to look at words literally even though terms are often not the same as the literal definition of the words. In the case of pay to win, it was intended to indicate games where the cash shop (not expansions) sold the greatest power.

Typical example would be level cap. Almost every game has the level cap go up in an expansion. Guild Wars 2 does not. This means in almost every game you're more powerful with an expansion, even games that charge a monthly fee. If you meet me in WoW on a PvP server in the open world and I'm max level and you're not, you're going to die. It's not even much of a contest. There really is no way to compete.

At least in WvW and SPVP in Guild Wars 2 there's a chance. By your definition, every MMO is pay to win and the actual definition loses it's meaning.

Take other games where you have to buy potions with cash and the people who can spam the most potions are going to win any fight 90% of the time. That's the very definition of pay to win. You can look it up in wikipedia and get more specifics. There's plenty of actual research you can do. Your definition of pay to win is just taking some words literally as if that's how they were originally defined. That's not the case at all.

This whole thing sounds like somebody is mad because mommy and daddy won't buy them the expansion. Expansions in every MMO ever, have always introduced more powerful skills and equipment. That's how they sell the content. Nobody would buy expansions if there weren't shiny new things. New maps and raids aren't enough to get most people to buy an expansion.

@Vayne.8563 said:

@cursE.1794 said:You can buy stronger skills for your character and the only way to pay for it is real money. That's the definition of pay 2 win. I'm not blaming them for trying to make money, I'm blaming them for killing the combat while trying to do so.

Here's an example that proves you wrong: In WoW, if you didn't buy the expansion, you could not play pvp at max level but you could still play pvp at lower levels and there it wouldn't make any difference if players had the expansion or not. So expansion players and vanilla players, when mixed together, had the same chances. In Guild Wars 2, expansion players and vanilla players are mixed together, in spvp as well as in wvw, but the expansion players have a huge advantage which comes from paying real money.

Again, pay to win means that paying players have an advantage over not-paying players, especially in competitive games. I did look it up, this is a widely shared definition. It's even considered pay to win if the time it takes to gain the same advantage by simply playing the game is out of scale.

@"cursE.1794" said:You can buy stronger skills for your character and the only way to pay for it is real money. That's the definition of pay 2 win. I'm not blaming them for trying to make money, I'm blaming them for killing the combat while trying to do so.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

WoW has a "free trial" of the game that lets you play for a week but you can only level to 30 and can't use /tell. That doesn't mean you are FORCED to buy the game and that it's p2w.

This game was designed for the players to buy expansions. The "f2p" nature of it should be seen as a "free trial" before purchasing the "full game."

@Ithilwen.1529 said:

@Loboling.5293 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:After the recent re work, My core Mesmer is a reasonable match for some of the PoF builds. It's not quite there yet, but I do see ANET moving in a good balance direction. (Did I actually just type that? )

I agree with you, that something had to be done to compensate for temporary phantasms. It just looks really ridiculous in combat. And makes reading the mesmers skills even more difficult than before.Here is a small example, but last game I landed on two enemy chronos. There were dozens of clones and phantasms, and it made me think they hadn't thought through the concept that some games you might have more than one mesmer, and it's just obnoxious to try and tell what's happening. haha

Either way, I'm not calling for mesmer nerfs per se, just either a better way of reading skills for the ui or something be done with the annimation bloat. I don't mind if mesmer get a sustain dmg increase for it, but I wish I could show you the game I'm referring.

Meanwhile most mmo's increase the max level with each expansion, rendering ones character useless and not even able to participate in any kind of end game w/o buing the xpac. I can asure you a core build vs a xpac build will fare better than someone 10 levels below their oponent. While I agree balance isnt at its peak, this is far from p2w.

Seriously, if you want to play a game you should pay for it. That goes for everything. You want an apartment, but you dont want to pay for it? Well tough luck.

If you think buying an xpac every other year for ~€50 with no monthly fee is too expensive, then you probaply should'nt sit around at home playing games all day in the first place.

Stop whining about gw2 being p2w or stop playing. Simple as that.

@cursE.1794 said:You can buy stronger skills for your character and the only way to pay for it is real money. That's the definition of pay 2 win. I'm not blaming them for trying to make money, I'm blaming them for killing the combat while trying to do so.

This is BS. It’s pretty stupid how many people complain about p2w when they don’t even know what it means. GW2 is not pay to win. It is far from it. In fact, it very friendly to people that don’t own the full game.

Buying an expansion, and related items, is not pay to win. It is buying the full game (buy to play). Games progress and offer new content. GW2 does this trough expansions.

It’s like saying level cap expansions in other games are pay to win. Being a higher level and having access to the related higher level gear and abilities gives a clear adavantage (more so than elite specs), but is still not pay to win. Why? Because it is part of an expansion, which most games require to be able to play end-game, and thus included in the definition of the full game. If you don’t own the full game, then you get left behind.

GW 2 Elite specs have some advantages over core, but not to the degree that people often claim and nothing to the degree of level cap increases on other games. Core specs are still viable and played by many (even those who own both expansions). Even if elite specs were actually required to play end game it still would not be pay to win because it is part of the expansion. I would t like a move like that, but it still wouldn’t fit the bill of p2w.

Pay to win would be a micro transaction that allows you to equip a nose ring that gives you additional stats and the only way to get that nose ring is a micro transaction and not tied to an expansion.

People really need to learn what pay to win is in the sense of most mmos. GW2 isn’t even close to pay to win. It just sounds like people don’t want to pay for the full game.

This question again... ALL MMORPGS are P2W/P2P (by OP's logic)

How is GW2 different from a game like WoW... other than WoW forcing players to buy new expansions for end game contend, while you technically never need to pay a dime to play GW2? If we're getting technical here, GW2 is never P2W.