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Anet why are you so fixed on making power reaper a thing in Raids?


Crinn.7864

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Both this recent patch and the November patch both brought changes that where clearly intended to improve power reaper in PvE formats, with the side effect of destroying Reaper's sustain in PvP.

So I ask: Why didn't you just buff condi reaper instead?

If you had taken reaper has it existed before the November patch and just added 2 seconds of bleed duration to Deathly Chill, Reaper would have had been a competitive DPS in any fight, and would have been outright optimal anywhere than epidemic or ice bow could have been put to use. But instead of doing that simple change you instead engaged in trying to make power reaper, a build totally unsuited for pve, a thing in pve, and in the process absolutely wrecked reaper's PvP and WvW performance. 5 months ago Reaper was meta in both sPvP and WvW, and only struggled in PvE. Now Reaper is massively outclassed in sPvP and WvW, while still being outclassed in PvE. The past two patches have traded our PvP and WvW viability for what? 7k DPS on a golem?

Besides even ignoring the obvious DPS gap between condi reaper and power reaper, condi reaper is still far better equipped for raids than power reaper is. Unlike condi reaper, power reaper cannot make use of epidemic nor can it make use of ice bow, while condi reaper makes gains much from both of those. Epidemic is our unique group utility, it is what sets us apart from other DPS options, promoting a build that cannot use it is doing us necros a great disservice. Moreover Power Reaper is far less suited for PvE than Condi Reaper at the rotational and mechanical level. Power Reaper's PvE rotation is literally just spam gravedigger on cooldown, while condi reaper enjoys a complex but manageable roation. If Power Reaper where to be made into a viable PvE DPS, it would have to be totally overhauled so that it used more than 2 buttons, as there would be a riot from the other classes if a class was doing top level DPS with 2 buttons, never mind the native survivability advantage that necro enjoys over other classes in PvE.

So I ask again: Why Anet did you destroy Reaper's PvP capabilities in the name of trying to make power Reaper a thing in PvE, when making condi reaper a thing in PvE would have been trivially easy and would not have required sacrificing our PvP and WvW viability

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To be honest, there were a few way to make reaper a thing in raid. Staying faithfull to condition like you suggest was one way to keep strengthen him there and build himself a stable niche. The forum also suggested more original way to do so, with solutions like giving core necromancer a toughness unique debuff which would have resulted in a not so great spec but still welcome in raids.

In regard of why they acted like they did, I think there might be 3 possible reasons:

  • First, and probably the least likely, they gave up to the pressure of reddit and the forum asking for "power reaper".
  • Second, they wanted to open up some room for their new e-spec, making it attractive to their customers.
  • Third, they wanted to use power and condi as a way to differentiate the 2 e-specs which would have ended up very similar otherwise.

Thougth, I don't think they did this to make power reaper viable in PvE, like you said power reaper didn't change it's gameplay in PvE from before the change and after the change. It's just spamcopter gravedigger like it was before. The changes could be seen as PvP change in order to make the necromancer a spec which depend less on gravedigger to land a deadly burst allowing one to effectively use down your ennemies via powerfull shroud power skills and finish them with gravedigger.

The necromancer in PvE, is dependent of epidemic . Epidemic is the reason condi reaper was a thing. It give an interesting extra to a balanced dps which make condimancer very niche but welcome in a few raid paths. Any power spec lack this "extra", simply because core necromancer have nothing interesting to give to a power spec. And as long as this is the case power spec will just be anecdotic build that are used by frustrated players, even if they were given more dps than they have now.

Eddit: Now, if we really ponder on it, a toughness debufff would have been a good thing from a necromancer point of view. However, if we look at the game as a whole, I now tend to think that "unique" things are not that healthy for the game.

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Well. I thinks its nice, being able to play power reaper in raids. Because you know, its intended to be a power class.And for pvp/ wvw roaming it rlly needed the dmg buffs to keep up with the power creep thats going on.

The problem is: you still wont be able to kill any firebrand with it, cause he will just heal back up. And kill you by passivly adding burning onto you.

Same goes for good elementalist players.Good ranger playersGood thiefs ( well you wont even hit them once)Good mesmers (same as thief)Good revenants..........

Well, i think you will only win like 30% of the fights.But against equally skilled players with other professions you will loose more often.

But the thing is, thats not anything new. Its the same as it was before the changes

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While I do think reaper needed more power reaper being condition is the exact thing people freaking hated about it. People often cried in pvp when they saw a condition reaper because at the time condition reaper was not easy to kill and chill application was more than plentiful. It was a real pain in the but to deal with. So any time condition is added to reaper people will cry. Its too tanky and does too much damage. It has 2 hp bars. Its not fair. It needs a nerf.Which inturn results in a classic necro pvp and pve nerf at the same time.

Bottom line is people hate condi reaper. They dont like fighting it they dont like it sitting on a point with a full bar of shroud despite the fact it has not defensive tools.

Honestly I was really loving the idea of reaper having a unique chill condition but people cried about that too. It wont stack, its does not work with break bars (an easy fix anet could have made.) and it could have easily made up for damage when tweaked down the line.

Overall the community be it the necro players or not often cause poor choices for the necro overall. Necromancer is a very unique profession that has the power to make other boon dripping professions fall to their knees an people dont like it.

I do agree that while i do enjoy power reaper I dislike not being able to make use of shroud because simply landing grave digger under 50% just deals better damage but at the same time. Asking for a change is just asking them to nerf gravedigger without getting any compensation anywhere else. Necro is really in an odd spot right now 100%.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:Bottom line is people hate condi reaper. They dont like fighting it they dont like it sitting on a point with a full bar of shroud despite the fact it has not defensive tools.

I am not talking about the Q2 2016 condi reaper nerfs. Also Condi Reaper fell out of the solo queue PvP meta in Q1 2017 and fell out of the tournament meta in Q3 2017. Power Reaper was part of the solo queue PvP meta for all of 2017 prior to PoF, and even with PoF was viable up until the November 2017 patch.

To be clear this thread is exclusively about the November 2017 changes to reaper shroud, and the February 2018 rework of vampiric presence. Both changes where seemingly designed to improve power reaper's raid DPS at the expense of survivability, and that survivability loss ended up completely destroying Reaper's last grip on viability in PvP given that Reaper was already struggling in a Scourge dominated meta.

@ZDragon.3046 said:I do agree that while i do enjoy power reaper I dislike not being able to make use of shroud because simply landing grave digger under 50% just deals better damage but at the same time. Asking for a change is just asking them to nerf gravedigger without getting any compensation anywhere else. Necro is really in an odd spot right now 100%.

I do not understand where you got the idea that I want Gravedigger nerfed. I want Reaper's survivability returned to a level that will allow us to hold our own again. Currently a Reaper running a Paladin's Amulet and Soldier Runes is significantly squishier than the marauder builds of other classes.

You cannot make a low mobility melee class function as a glass cannon in PvP formats, yet ArenaNet has spent the past few patches trying to turn Reaper into exactly that.

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@Crinn.7864 said:Both this recent patch and the November patch both brought changes that where clearly intended to improve power reaper in PvE formats, with the side effect of destroying Reaper's sustain in PvP.I do PvP/WvW exclusively on Power Reaper since Hot Release and I can say that when you look at the big picture the spec became more viable.

The last patch changed nothing for Power Reaper except the corrupt table but was still a huge buff because a lot of counter-specs were nerfed - esp. Scourge and Mirage. Warrior and Power/Shiro is a doable matchup now because you can switch your utilites from anti-condi to anti-power while still being capable of killing a Scourge. I would even say that at the moment there do not exist any hardcounters to Power Reaper. So much about 1v1...

When we consider team scenarios Power Reaper performs great as long as you don't team up with low-fight-presence specs like Thief, LB-Ranger or Mesmer. You need someone right next to you for support - it does not matter if it is a Warrior, Revenant, Guardian, Engineer... as long as it's no Teef.

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@Lahmia.2193 said:

@vicious.5683 said:Sad part is Power Reaper is still trash tier in PVE.

I'd happily take a power reaper that was trash in pvp and wvw but top tier in pve.

Power Reaper will never be that. Power Reaper was never suited for PvE, or rather I should say Power necro is not suited for PvE. Condi Reaper however is very well suited to PvE.

I do not understand why people are so obsessed with it having to be power reaper and not condi reaper for PvE.

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@Crinn.7864 said:

@"vicious.5683" said:Sad part is Power Reaper is still trash tier in PVE.

I'd happily take a power reaper that was trash in pvp and wvw but top tier in pve.

Power Reaper will never be that. Power Reaper was never suited for PvE, or rather I should say Power necro is not suited for PvE. Condi Reaper however is very well suited to PvE.

I do not understand why people are so obsessed with it having to be power reaper and not condi reaper for PvE.

Power reaper was introduced to fill in the missing gaps that were necros lack of a two handed cleaving melee weapon (reaper greatsword was clearly a pve weapon by design) and the uselessness that was death shroud (especially in pve - whereby it wasn't even used for the most part, instead being "flashed"). I don't see how it meant they weren't suited for pve. They could bump up the current low tier damage that is power reaper (with trait damage modifiers - something necro has always been bottom tier in) to mid tier easily, without completely breaking it in pvp or wvw.

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@Lahmia.2193 said:

@"vicious.5683" said:Sad part is Power Reaper is still trash tier in PVE.

I'd happily take a power reaper that was trash in pvp and wvw but top tier in pve.

Power Reaper will never be that. Power Reaper was never suited for PvE, or rather I should say Power necro is not suited for PvE. Condi Reaper however is very well suited to PvE.

I do not understand why people are so obsessed with it having to be power reaper and not condi reaper for PvE.

Power reaper was introduced to fill in the missing gaps that were necros lack of a two handed cleaving melee weapon (reaper greatsword was clearly a pve weapon by design) and the uselessness that was death shroud (especially in pve - whereby it wasn't even used for the most part, instead being "flashed"). I don't see how it meant they weren't suited for pve. They could bump up the current low tier damage that is power reaper (with trait damage modifiers - something necro has always been bottom tier in) to mid tier easily, without completely breaking it in pvp or wvw.

I disagree with your assessment of GS on Power Reaper. It seems more like a /failed/ attempt at a PvP weapon for necro. The skill-shot pull (with damage), the AoE blind, and the huge AoE hits (plus the <50% health mechanic of Gravedigger) seems more designed for a PvP bruiser archetype. I mean... in a 10-minute long PvE boss fight, who in the hell wants to spam #2 for 4 minutes straight once the boss is below that 50% mark? Talk about a terrible PvE "rotation" ... but now Power Reaper is a low-mobility, glass canon with a slow GS attack and no defense skills... WTF?

The main problem is that, just as a basic design philosophy, the shroud mechanic is flawed because it is either good for PvP (tool for strong defense) and almost useless for PvE or it's good for PvE (and great, but quick, DPS boost) and therefore mostly useless for PvP. And then the side effect of this is that -- as the profession's core , defining mechanic -- all other design decisions are informed by the purpose of Shroud (like having ZERO blocks or extra evades or easy access to Stab/Invuln/Aegis, etc). But with the latest patches (November, especially) Shroud has been pushed to a more offensive role... which leaves PvP Power Reaper with absolutely NO defensive abilities. That's a problem.

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I don’t pvp, only fractals, light raiding and mostly wvw. The damage buffs on reaper were sorely needed in wvw even if our survivability took a nerf. The shroud decay going to 5% is unnecessary but I was still very happy with the overall damage increase. What we really need is the cd trait to get back into shroud in 7 seconds along with the original 3%. This imho is the #1 wvw buff we need right now. Not only, but first.

Overall I agree with the OP. Nerfing condi reaper was stupid, I thought the whole point of this game was build diversity and here we have anet blatantly trying to shoehorn us into builds. Power reaper still needed the dps boost, at least for wvw play.

It would be nice to be able to power reaper in raids/fractals too, viably, with more than gs2 spam. But, I probably ask for a bit much.

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@"cobracommander.5861" said:I don’t pvp, only fractals, light raiding and mostly wvw. The damage buffs on reaper were sorely needed in wvw even if our survivability took a nerf. The shroud decay going to 5% is unnecessary but I was still very happy with the overall damage increase. What we really need is the cd trait to get back into shroud in 7 seconds along with the original 3%. This imho is the #1 wvw buff we need right now. Not only, but first.

Overall I agree with the OP. Nerfing condi reaper was stupid, I thought the whole point of this game was build diversity and here we have anet blatantly trying to shoehorn us into builds. Power reaper still needed the dps boost, at least for wvw play.

It would be nice to be able to power reaper in raids/fractals too, viably, with more than gs2 spam. But, I probably ask for a bit much.

But here's the problem. Everyone wants Power Reaper to be viable in their respective realm / desired game mode ... but shroud, as a mechanic, cannot support that level of diversity without a complete redesign OR complete and drastic splits between modes (which Anet does NOT do).

In WvW you are asking for more damage, at the loss of survivability. This absolutely decimates Power Reaper in sPvP (where Power Reaper burst is great but sustain is terrible). Anet has been pretty open with their thoughts around shroud. Because it's a "second life bar" they are under the impression that Necro cannot have great damage or great defensive abilities (other than shroud). But, over the years, and after countless complaints to be "raid viable" ... shroud has slowly turned into a dps tool and not a defensive tool, so now nobody wins!

Bottom line. Shroud needs redesigned. Or, if they keep it as is, Necro needs more blocks/defensive abilities.

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@pah.4931 said:

@"cobracommander.5861" said:I don’t pvp, only fractals, light raiding and mostly wvw. The damage buffs on reaper were sorely needed in wvw even if our survivability took a nerf. The shroud decay going to 5% is unnecessary but I was still very happy with the overall damage increase. What we really need is the cd trait to get back into shroud in 7 seconds along with the original 3%. This imho is the #1 wvw buff we need right now. Not only, but first.

Overall I agree with the OP. Nerfing condi reaper was stupid, I thought the whole point of this game was build diversity and here we have anet blatantly trying to shoehorn us into builds. Power reaper still needed the dps boost, at least for wvw play.

It would be nice to be able to power reaper in raids/fractals too, viably, with more than gs2 spam. But, I probably ask for a bit much.

But here's the problem. Everyone wants Power Reaper to be viable in their respective realm / desired game mode ... but shroud, as a mechanic, cannot support that level of diversity without a complete redesign OR complete and drastic splits between modes (which Anet does NOT do).

In WvW you are asking for more damage, at the loss of survivability. This absolutely decimates Power Reaper in sPvP (where Power Reaper burst is great but sustain is terrible). Anet has been pretty open with their thoughts around shroud. Because it's a "second life bar" they are under the impression that Necro cannot have great damage or great defensive abilities (other than shroud). But, over the years, and after countless complaints to be "raid viable" ... shroud has slowly turned into a dps tool and not a defensive tool, so now nobody wins!

Bottom line. Shroud needs redesigned. Or, if they keep it as is, Necro needs more blocks/defensive abilities.

If the devs gave us an endure pain, resistance, or blocks, I’d be over the moon. Anet always seems to take the simple route which is never the best, so I’d at least like to get back into shroud again and have it last longer.

power reaper damage sucked, it needed a buff without the survivability nerf. I get the concerns about how shroud works in general, I’m just assuming Anet isn’t going to change that.

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I run power reaper in spvp now instead of scourge (after 06 feb). Im still plat 1. I found power reaper great burst class with some problems with sustain. I mean i have a lot of problems with condi pressure, but i can be usefull in mass fight with my wells / protections / gs4 and axe boonstreaping.Some glass builds like zerk ele even get blastet with one axe 2.But power reaper is a real glass canon... At least i have some damage )) (btw this build is far more fun for me than scourge)

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@pah.4931 said:

@cobracommander.5861 said:I don’t pvp, only fractals, light raiding and mostly wvw. The damage buffs on reaper were sorely needed in wvw even if our survivability took a nerf. The shroud decay going to 5% is unnecessary but I was still very happy with the overall damage increase. What we really need is the cd trait to get back into shroud in 7 seconds along with the original 3%. This imho is the #1 wvw buff we need right now. Not only, but first.

Overall I agree with the OP. Nerfing condi reaper was stupid, I thought the whole point of this game was build diversity and here we have anet blatantly trying to shoehorn us into builds. Power reaper still needed the dps boost, at least for wvw play.

It would be nice to be able to power reaper in raids/fractals too, viably, with more than gs2 spam. But, I probably ask for a bit much.

Everyone wants Power Reaper to be viable in their respective realm / desired game mode ... but shroud, as a mechanic, cannot support that level of diversity without a complete redesign OR complete and drastic splits between modes (which Anet does NOT do).

Except Shroud did support it. Less than 5 months ago Reaper was meta in both PvP modes while also pulling competitive DPS in PvE.

You lot keep insisting that Reaper's design is 'broken' when in reality it is was really close to working everywhere, but then you lot had to ruin it by peer pressuring Anet into trying to convert the class into a glass cannon.

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@Crinn.7864 said:

@pah.4931 said:

@"cobracommander.5861" said:I don’t pvp, only fractals, light raiding and mostly wvw. The damage buffs on reaper were sorely needed in wvw even if our survivability took a nerf. The shroud decay going to 5% is unnecessary but I was still very happy with the overall damage increase. What we really need is the cd trait to get back into shroud in 7 seconds along with the original 3%. This imho is the #1 wvw buff we need right now. Not only, but first.

Overall I agree with the OP. Nerfing condi reaper was stupid, I thought the whole point of this game was build diversity and here we have anet blatantly trying to shoehorn us into builds. Power reaper still needed the dps boost, at least for wvw play.

It would be nice to be able to power reaper in raids/fractals too, viably, with more than gs2 spam. But, I probably ask for a bit much.

Everyone wants Power Reaper to be viable in their respective realm / desired game mode ... but shroud, as a mechanic, cannot support that level of diversity without a complete redesign OR complete and drastic splits between modes (which Anet does NOT do).

Except Shroud
did
support it. Less than 5 months ago Reaper was meta in both PvP modes while also pulling competitive DPS in PvE.

You lot keep insisting that Reaper's design is 'broken' when in reality it is was really close to working everywhere, but then you lot had to ruin it by peer pressuring Anet into trying to convert the class into a glass cannon.

I disagree. Being "competitive dps" isn't always the goal. In PvE, especially raids and dungeons and fractals, shroud didn't do anything but serve as an "OH SHIT" button. It's weird to have your class mechanic not benefit you all that much in an entire aspect of the game.

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@pah.4931 said:

@pah.4931 said:

@"cobracommander.5861" said:I don’t pvp, only fractals, light raiding and mostly wvw. The damage buffs on reaper were sorely needed in wvw even if our survivability took a nerf. The shroud decay going to 5% is unnecessary but I was still very happy with the overall damage increase. What we really need is the cd trait to get back into shroud in 7 seconds along with the original 3%. This imho is the #1 wvw buff we need right now. Not only, but first.

Overall I agree with the OP. Nerfing condi reaper was stupid, I thought the whole point of this game was build diversity and here we have anet blatantly trying to shoehorn us into builds. Power reaper still needed the dps boost, at least for wvw play.

It would be nice to be able to power reaper in raids/fractals too, viably, with more than gs2 spam. But, I probably ask for a bit much.

Everyone wants Power Reaper to be viable in their respective realm / desired game mode ... but shroud, as a mechanic, cannot support that level of diversity without a complete redesign OR complete and drastic splits between modes (which Anet does NOT do).

Except Shroud
did
support it. Less than 5 months ago Reaper was meta in both PvP modes while also pulling competitive DPS in PvE.

You lot keep insisting that Reaper's design is 'broken' when in reality it is was really close to working everywhere, but then you lot had to ruin it by peer pressuring Anet into trying to convert the class into a glass cannon.

I disagree. Being "competitive dps" isn't always the goal. In PvE, especially raids and dungeons and fractals, shroud didn't do anything but serve as an "OH kitten" button. It's weird to have your class mechanic not benefit you all that much in an entire aspect of the game.

PvE Condi Reaper uses shroud as part of it's rotation.

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@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:Sad part is Power Reaper is still trash tier in PVE.

I'd happily take a power reaper that was trash in pvp and wvw but top tier in pve.

Power Reaper will never be that. Power Reaper was never suited for PvE, or rather I should say Power necro is not suited for PvE. Condi Reaper however is very well suited to PvE.

I do not understand why people are so obsessed with it having to be power reaper and not condi reaper for PvE.

That big fucking sword screams Power Build.Besides, Power Reaper was great at release, but again those cry babies in forums cried and Reaper was gutted.

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This thread is ridiculous. It implies that ANet is fixed on making power reaper a thing - well clearly, if they do, they kinda fail. It's still trash tier meme zone class. It still needs buffs. 27k dps against other classes 34k+ or weavers on big hitboxes is absurd level of comedy.

As for your complaint, OP, you literally act like "my game mode is more important, I want power reaper special only in pvp". thats not how balance or even constructive feedback works.

I don't want to play condi reaper or scourge in raids. I want to play power reaper, and I want to do respectable DPS. I don't care about pvp or wvw, but I'm not gonna ask ANet to completely abandon power reaper in these game modes. That would be inappropriate. You're not the only one who plays this game.

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The thing is, Reaper was below average everywhere before the November balance patch. Having a tradeoff was completely unecessary, because it just needed a buff.

People keep saying that Shroud is a defensive tool and an offensive tool, so they can't make either part too strong.

This is incorrect. Yes, Shroud can function as either, but it's used as one or the other at any given time, not both. Think of Nocturne in League of Legends. Every single part of his kit has offensive and defensive applications, but players never use the skills as both at the same time. The situations just don't allow for it. Shroud is the same way. You can actually balance the offensive applications almost separately from the defensive applications and still be fine.

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@Sublimatio.6981 said:As for your complaint, OP, you literally act like "my game mode is more important, I want power reaper special only in pvp". thats not how balance or even constructive feedback works.

My complaint is not that my mode is more important. My complaint is that we went from being meta in 2 of 3 modes and viable in third to being trash in all 3 modes. Reaper has lost all viability in all modes all because this subforum and reddit had to go whine campaign back in August about "muh true power spec" as if preferred damage type means anything beyond informing gear choices.

@Sublimatio.6981 said:I want to play power reaper, and I want to do respectable DPS. I don't care about pvp or wvw, but I'm not gonna ask ANet to completely abandon power reaper in these game modes. That would be inappropriate. You're not the only one who plays this game.

I am not asking ArenaNet to abandon anything, I'm asking ArenaNet to stop throwing 2/3rds of the gamemodes under the bus just to suit a tiny minority of players that insist on being able to do top tier DPS in raids by rebinding all their keys to gravedigger.

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@Crinn.7864 said:

@"Sublimatio.6981" said:As for your complaint, OP, you literally act like "my game mode is more important, I want power reaper special only in pvp". thats not how balance or even constructive feedback works.

My complaint is not that my mode is more important. My complaint is that we went from being meta in 2 of 3 modes and viable in third to being trash in all 3 modes. Reaper has lost all viability in all modes all because this subforum and reddit had to go whine campaign back in August about "muh true power spec" as if preferred damage type means anything beyond informing gear choices.

@"Sublimatio.6981" said:I want to play power reaper, and I want to do respectable DPS. I don't care about pvp or wvw, but I'm not gonna ask ANet to completely abandon power reaper in these game modes. That would be inappropriate. You're not the only one who plays this game.

I am not asking ArenaNet to abandon anything, I'm asking ArenaNet to stop throwing 2/3rds of the gamemodes under the bus just to suit a tiny minority of players that insist on being able to do top tier DPS in raids by rebinding all their keys to gravedigger.

1) Power reaper was never good in all 3 game modes. Hardly. Definitely not in PvE, ever. It was doing 24k dps. Even less at HoT launch.2) Oh so PvE is suddenly a tiny minority of players but PvP isn't? You know, besides raids there are also fractals, raids and open world events. You're being exclusive and only care about your "tiny" enclave within the game. The proper way to address reaper issues would be to suggest sensible balance changes, not "hurr durr trash power in pve let them play condi reaper i want my power reaper in pvp". I don't think you realize how immature that is.

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