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Reflect and Projectile Absorb


ArthurDent.9538

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In this game most affects are restricted to make them are given caps to prevent them from being overwhelmingly strong in large scale combat. Most aoe damage is restricted to 3 or 5 targets maximum and most group buffs are restricted to 5 allies. Reflect and projectile absorption however are not limited to any target caps, which makes them very overpowered in large scale wvw. As it currently stands it only takes 3 guardians to chain walls of reflection to permanently shut down infinite numbers of projectiles from infinite amounts of players. In small scale, having enough projectile hate to keep it up permanently takes significant investment but this is trivially done at large scale because there is no target cap. I propose that projectile defense is given the treatment that ward cc like line of warding was given in that each skill can stop a maximum number of projectiles and then it will disappear, the max number of stopped projectiles can be unique for each skill. This would allow projectile heavy weapons to start seeing viability in large scale where they are currently all subpar, while not affecting small scale a large amount.

As a side note it would prevent stupid stuff like the bellow from happening in pve which is a nice bonus.

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@"Ubi.4136" said:This allows smaller, more skilled groups to beat larger unorganized blobs.This is literally the description in the dictionary next to the phrase "learn to play".

It isn't an issue of skill or learn to play, it is an issue of a simple mechanic completely hard countering dozens of otherwise potential not horrible builds. The "smaller, more skilled groups" may be marginally more skilled but a lot of it is that they just don't use builds that are countered by projectile hate because they know those builds are not viable which is a balance issue.

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@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@"Ubi.4136" said:This allows smaller, more skilled groups to beat larger unorganized blobs.This is literally the description in the dictionary next to the phrase "learn to play".

It isn't an issue of skill or learn to play, it is an issue of a simple mechanic completely hard countering dozens of otherwise potential not horrible builds.

Name one build of the dozens a simple reflect wall is "completely hard countering".

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@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@"Ubi.4136" said:This allows smaller, more skilled groups to beat larger unorganized blobs.This is literally the description in the dictionary next to the phrase "learn to play".

. The "smaller, more skilled groups" may be marginally more skilled but a lot of it is that they just don't use builds that are countered by projectile hate because they know those builds are not viable which is a balance issue.

So, then all builds must be viable in order for the game to be balanced?

If the small group knows that those builds aren't viable, why aren't others who have access to the same builds, finding a counter?

I look at it as they see what the 'meta' is, and build to disrupt it. Pirate ship is a problem. Projectiles killing their scourges is a problem. Build to defend it.

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Not very bright idea id say. Reflects are what keep commanders alive from all kinds of pewpew.

Lets just say that pewpew has no space in WvW. Professions like ranger dont have space in largescale fights until they get a weaponset to do so. Reworking old unused weapons would work.

Now I know you like the idea of everyone standing 1600 range from each other waiting for someone to come close so they can press 1 button and instagib him... Hope you agree that for the sake of balance and for the new players, lets not remove/nerf the reflects :) Theres already enough damage going on and you would have to nerf everything, including your projectile damage, making them rather useless again :)

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@Threather.9354 said:Not very bright idea id say. Reflects are what keep commanders alive from all kinds of pewpew.

Lets just say that pewpew has no space in WvW. Professions like ranger dont have space in largescale fights until they get a weaponset to do so. Reworking old unused weapons would work.

Now I know you like the idea of everyone standing 1600 range from each other waiting for someone to come close so they can press 1 button and instagib him... Hope you agree that for the sake of balance and for the new players, lets not remove/nerf the reflects :) Theres already enough damage going on and you would have to nerf everything, including your projectile damage, making them rather useless again :)

You misunderstand me, I actually greatly prefer melee over ranged combat as I find it much more interesting and skill intensive than pew pewing. The thing is reflects in their current form don't really stop the pew pew, they just just force all the pew pew to be of a form that by passes reflects. Scourge, staff ele, and hammer rev are the main ranged damage dealers of the current meta because a very significant amount of their ranged damage is from non projectiles. Toning down reflects just allows other classes to participate when the meta goes pirate ship instead of re-rolling to a non projectile pew pewer. Speaking of pirate ship meta, it is a by product of scourge + piss bubbles shutting down melee pushes, which is a different problem than ranged damage being over powered. Would be great if melee could actually get in close for damage but you just lose all boons and die. Also reflects would still be strong it would just take more than 3 guards rotating WoR to completely protect a 50 man zerg from all the projectiles from an enemy 50 man zerg it just scales way to well for minimal investment from large groups.

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@"ArthurDent.9538" said:You misunderstand me, I actually greatly prefer melee over ranged combat as I find it much more interesting and skill intensive than pew pewing. The thing is reflects in their current form don't really stop the pew pew, they just just force all the pew pew to be of a form that by passes reflects. Scourge, staff ele, and hammer rev are the main ranged damage dealers of the current meta because a very significant amount of their ranged damage is from non projectiles. Toning down reflects just allows other classes to participate when the meta goes pirate ship instead of re-rolling to a non projectile pew pewer. Speaking of pirate ship meta, it is a by product of scourge + kitten bubbles shutting down melee pushes, which is a different problem than ranged damage being over powered. Would be great if melee could actually get in close for damage but you just lose all boons and die. Also reflects would still be strong it would just take more than 3 guards rotating WoR to completely protect a 50 man zerg from all the projectiles from an enemy 50 man zerg it just scales way to well for minimal investment from large groups.

No, current meta is byproduct of people wanting to play scourge because it was easy buttonsmash class while being the only class that got decent amount of loot at start of PoF. Scourge got considerably nerfed in the last patch while still remaining prevalent in the meta. However there are now lot of tools for melee to able to sustain.Examples:

  • Holosmith/rev can give superspeed and grant massive amount of clenase/resistance
  • Revs can run dwarf with hammer again due to scourge not corrupting resistance always. And believe me, power "melee" revs stunbreak their allies A LOT and dwarf makes party practically unkillable for 5 seconds.
  • Start of PoF meta consisted of 1 firebrand, 3 scourges and 1 spellbreaker which obviously was downgrade from old "boonshare mesm/ele, melee rev, 2x guardian, typically berserker" meta sustainwise.
  • Now that supports get more contribution per kills after last patch, people will be more willing to play firebrands, bs chrono etc instead of having 35 scourges in 50 man squad.
  • Retribution traitline has the dwarf passive when rev goes under 50% that it procs dwarf elite. Now as you know during HoT, this thing was the thing that saved the caught people on the first engage. This will be the bubble counter.

Now, this wont touch NA meta in anyways because NA was already incapable of running melee comp in bigger public blobs during HoT but will EU will definitely shift towards more melee heavy since "melee" rev actually deals more damage + support than ranged rev now (yes potential is lower, but dealing damage is easier due to better positioning). This will give more room for Warriors, Holosmiths, Guardians etc that greatly benefit from having dwarf elite up.

Now the resistance converting to immobilize is a little bit shame, but it really only affects scourges because revenant, guardians, holosmiths and Warriors can pretty much just react to it and escape. So they have basically same weakness as reapers did: immobilize. Old necro mains will adapt instantly and be able to save their staff 4 and other condition clears. Also more party members will have more tools to save you.

The thing is, meta was also messy because most good commanders didnt like the ranged style where whoever oneshotted enemy melee first won. Was it fun playing firebrand when you couldn't engage? Answer: No. Now as meta slowly shifts towards melee, they will be tagging up more and we will have better players in general.

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