Buff Condition Removal?

So, since they gutted my favorite condi removal skill iDisenchanter, i have been struggling with condi builds. They have too much burst application and on top of that they have constant application. I think Anet really needs to give us a little bit of love when it comes to condition removal, because right now it sucks! We have very little in terms of Burst removal and we have very little in sustained removal since the ruined my favorite anti condi skill :(

What do you guys think? Do we need improved condition removal? If so, what would you suggest?

I think we can trait for a crazy amount of condi removal already, at least with mirage - EM, jaunt, RI, SV, Prestige, Mantra, Mender's Purity, AT, Null Field, Cleansing Sigils...

Sure I do think they should be spread out rather than overloaded on Inspiration - maybe Sympathetic Visage should be in Illusions. Chaos could possibly have a trait RNG converting condi to boons. Domination could have something like "on Interrupt transfer a condition to your target".

@"Curunen.8729" said:I think we can trait for a crazy amount of condi removal already, at least with mirage - EM, jaunt, RI, SV, Prestige, Mantra, Mender's Purity, AT, Null Field, Cleansing Sigils...

Sure I do think they should be spread out rather than overloaded on Inspiration - maybe Sympathetic Visage should be in Illusions. Chaos could possibly have a trait RNG converting condi to boons. Domination could have something like "on Interrupt transfer a condition to your target".

Mirage doesnt really bring that much, Yes you can remove ONE condition on Dodge and ONE condition on Jaunt which has a 20second cool down, 60seconds if you want to remove 3. Seems a bit steep to me. Torch is another long cool down low condition removal skill. The problem with the mantra is that a near 3 second cast. You cane take HUGE amounts of damage in that time it takes to charge, thats if you are able to either stealth or use other cool downs to actually get the chance to get it off, then you have the 24second recharge to remove 3 conditions!? It just seems forced like that to make you use all the charges just so you can get that reduced cool down, even if it means having a near 3 second cast :/

While on paper it looks like good removal, in practice, its really not due to the low cool downs or low removal. Though i wouldnt say no to Sympathic Visage being combined with Persistence of Memory, maybe even make it so it affects clones as well. Be nice if we had reasonable options, its not even as if Inspiration is as good as say Water for Ele when it comes to condi removal. Restorative Illusions could be improved Maybe remove 1 condition PER a a clone that hits your target or something?

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:I think we can trait for a crazy amount of condi removal already, at least with mirage - EM, jaunt, RI, SV, Prestige, Mantra, Mender's Purity, AT, Null Field, Cleansing Sigils...

Sure I do think they should be spread out rather than overloaded on Inspiration - maybe Sympathetic Visage should be in Illusions. Chaos could possibly have a trait RNG converting condi to boons. Domination could have something like "on Interrupt transfer a condition to your target".

In practice with dodge food, adventurer runes with 12s heal, energy sigils and perma vigour, Elusive Mind is a powerhouse condi cleanse by itself, nevermind in combination with other skills. Adding to that, high evade uptime allows avoidance of incoming condi application in the first place - so not only having high cleanse potential but negating initial application.

In wvw conditions are very rarely the thing that kills me - rather it's usually direct damage.

Though I would certainly agree that there should be some kind of condi removal options in other lines to encourage build diversity.

No need for condi removal buffing dischanter was just nice condi removal because it would also clear boons and keep clearing condis if you happened to not shatter pretty much best of both worlds will just have to get used to it or slot in a different utility/trait which mes actually does have.

@Curunen.8729 said:In practice with dodge food, adventurer runes with 12s heal, energy sigils and perma vigour, Elusive Mind is a powerhouse condi cleanse by itself, nevermind in combination with other skills. Adding to that, high evade uptime allows avoidance of incoming condi application in the first place - so not only having high cleanse potential but negating initial application.

In wvw conditions are very rarely the thing that kills me - rather it's usually direct damage.

Though I would certainly agree that there should be some kind of condi removal options in other lines to encourage build diversity.

So you need food, You need sigils, you need runeset, you need specific heal. All to have EM being good to remove conditions, personally i would prefer condition removal that ISN'T built around spamming dodging.

In T1 EU, most roamers are condition builds :/ Most of them being bunker. Of course the old iDisenchanter would have bene near useless against the mindless AOE condis spamming that WvW has become, but being able to kite people away from it get good condi removal, have the cool down reduced when shatter, have it reudce further when you have alacrity, have it remove 3 condis on cast and it be at 16second cool down made it awesome.

@Lalainnia.3598 said:No need for condi removal buffing dischanter was just nice condi removal because it would also clear boons and keep clearing condis if you happened to not shatter pretty much best of both worlds will just have to get used to it or slot in a different utility/trait which mes actually does have.

It was awesome for condi removal, especially for roaming. As long as you were able to kite people away from it. It lasting for a couple of attacks made it worth while. Removing 3 conditions on cast, removing 3 (iirc) when it used its attack, reduced cool down from trait (16) reduced cool down when shattered, reduced further with alacrity. It was an awesome skill. Useful in both fighting condition builds and fighting boon spam builds :(

Hear me out here, but I think our condi removal is fine as it is. And I actually like that its overrepresented in the Inspirations line. That forces us to take a defensive line to get the most condi cleanse, which means we have to sacrifice a damage oriented line. That is how game balance should work. Its just that across the board, every class is spitting out way too many conditions, way too rapidly, and that makes our rather insane condi removal look pitiful by comparison.

I would much rather see condi output slashed across the board than to increase, or even spread out, our condi removal.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:In practice with dodge food, adventurer runes with 12s heal, energy sigils and perma vigour, Elusive Mind is a powerhouse condi cleanse by itself, nevermind in combination with other skills. Adding to that, high evade uptime allows avoidance of incoming condi application in the first place - so not only having high cleanse potential but negating initial application.

In wvw conditions are very rarely the thing that kills me - rather it's usually direct damage.

Though I would certainly agree that there should be some kind of condi removal options in other lines to encourage build diversity.

@Lalainnia.3598 said:No need for condi removal buffing dischanter was just nice condi removal because it would also clear boons and keep clearing condis if you happened to not shatter pretty much best of both worlds will just have to get used to it or slot in a different utility/trait which mes actually does have.

If they buff our condi removal further then it may be possible to build to be effectively immune which I don't think is good for the game.

Sure they could buff trait and skill condi removal, but they would have to nerf gear synergies at the same time.

What are you fighting that warrants more than Elusive Mind, Cleanse Mantra (3, 3, then 13 on recast), and Jaunt? Heck, you can toss in Null Field, a little bit of Torch 4, and you should basically never have a problem, with 0 trait investment.

Between these, Distortion, mirage mirrors, and dodging, they should never be a problem unless you're fighting against a god tier player.

/perspective of casual wvw mirage roamer, aka not that great

Yeah, our condie removal is more than fine. Remember that condies can be countered just like other attacks by actually avoiding them. You don't have to actually facetank everything and then cleanse it off afterwards. If you're properly avoiding damage, you can get plenty of condie removal in any build with some choices like the mantra, elusive mind, torch, or even arcane thievery. If you really are unable to avoid condies to the point that that's not enough, you'll need to make the sacrifice in your build by taking inspiration for more cleanse. If that isn't enough, then the problem is L2P, not mesmer.

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:Yeah, our condie removal is more than fine. Remember that condies can be countered just like other attacks by actually avoiding them. You don't have to actually facetank everything and then cleanse it off afterwards. If you're properly avoiding damage, you can get plenty of condie removal in any build with some choices like the mantra, elusive mind, torch, or even arcane thievery. If you really are unable to avoid condies to the point that that's not enough, you'll need to make the sacrifice in your build by taking inspiration for more cleanse. If that isn't enough, then the problem is L2P, not mesmer.

But Pyro I wanna facetank everything!

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:Yeah, our condie removal is more than fine. Remember that condies can be countered just like other attacks by actually avoiding them. You don't have to actually facetank everything and then cleanse it off afterwards. If you're properly avoiding damage, you can get plenty of condie removal in any build with some choices like the mantra, elusive mind, torch, or even arcane thievery. If you really are unable to avoid condies to the point that that's not enough, you'll need to make the sacrifice in your build by taking inspiration for more cleanse. If that isn't enough, then the problem is L2P, not mesmer.

So, say that you get condi bombed. Which SO many classes in this game can do, You now have 5+ Conditions on you. You are now also getting applied more conditions ontop of the condi bomb, which will be ready to use again very soon. You are melting from all the condis. What do you do to remove them? use all your dodges and Jaunt 3 times? What about the next condi bomb which will happen very soon?

I am kinda tempted to drop Mirage Advance for the mantra and see how much that might help, though i find all the Deception utilities to be kinda wonky, especially against running targets :/

Too me, having to run specific weapons, food, sigils, runesets and everything else to get anywhere near the removals that some classes can get just by using skills is a little bit of the point i was trying to make. Take Soulbeast for example. 1 Trait. 1 Heal and boom you have 12 conditions removed over 6seconds on a 25second cool down. Then thats also ignoring all the other condition removal hey have elsewhere. Then theres ele, Weaver and Tempest in particular. Just a few examples of classes that dont need to run specific weapons, food, sigils, runesets and everything else to still not have as good as some others without the same investment.

@OriOri.8724 said:Hear me out here, but I think our condi removal is fine as it is. And I actually like that its overrepresented in the Inspirations line. That forces us to take a defensive line to get the most condi cleanse, which means we have to sacrifice a damage oriented line. That is how game balance should work. Its just that across the board, every class is spitting out way too many conditions, way too rapidly, and that makes our rather insane condi removal look pitiful by comparison.

I would much rather see condi output slashed across the board than to increase, or even spread out, our condi removal.

Over represented would be the level that Ele has in water. The removal in Inspiration is nowhere near the same level. Water has access to 3 Condition removals and thats just the removals, add in Cleansing Water and that adds a HUGE amount of removals and it works so well when combined with skills and other trait lines.

Inspiration is our condi removal but no where near as strong. 1 Condition removed on a shatter between 10-40+ second cool downs, 1-2 removed per a Phantasm cast, 16-20+ second cool downs, 1 removed on Heal.

No where near as strong. If you ran Inspiration and Mantra of Recovery. That is 7 conditions removed. That is using ALL of your shatter skills and charging and using all mantra uses. Soul beast Ranger. 1 Trait. 1 Heal. removes 12...

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:Yeah, our condie removal is more than fine. Remember that condies can be countered just like other attacks by actually avoiding them. You don't have to actually facetank everything and then cleanse it off afterwards. If you're properly avoiding damage, you can get plenty of condie removal in any build with some choices like the mantra, elusive mind, torch, or even arcane thievery. If you really are unable to avoid condies to the point that that's not enough, you'll need to make the sacrifice in your build by taking inspiration for more cleanse. If

that

isn't enough, then the problem is L2P, not mesmer.

How does Soulbeast remove 12 conditions over 6 seconds with one heal? Druid can remove 12 (if im not mistaken) when he enters Celestial Avatar if he uses a trait for it, but Soulbeast on heal?

On topic: I find mesmer's condi cleanse to be in a okay spot, especially when you go Mirage. Inspiration provides a lot of condi cleanse too, even more so now that it cleanses on phantasm summon too (my only issues with Inspiration are Focus trait placement, garbage GMs if you don't play support, and Mender's purity since its nerf some time ago).That being said, I wouldn't say no to some very minor cleanses in other traitlines as well, but they shouldn't be too powerful. It's not necessary though.

@bart.3687 said:How does Soulbeast remove 12 conditions over 6 seconds with one heal? Druid can remove 12 (if im not mistaken) when he enters Celestial Avatar if he uses a trait for it, but Soulbeast on heal?

That would be Bear Stance. Traited. It gives a longer duration. So it can remove 2 conditions per a second for 6 seconds. you could even grab other traits and make it remove 14 conditions if you grab the survival on heal and condi removal on survival. It also heals them per a condition removed as well. Great heal, its what my Soulbeast runs. Though not played soulbeast for a while. It got boring :(

@bart.3687 said:On topic: I find mesmer's condi cleanse to be in a okay spot, especially when you go Mirage. Inspiration provides a lot of condi cleanse too, even more so now that it cleanses on phantasm summon too (my only issues with Inspiration are Focus trait placement, garbage GMs if you don't play support, and Mender's purity since its nerf some time ago).That being said, I wouldn't say no to some very minor cleanses in other traitlines as well, but they shouldn't be too powerful. It's not necessary though.

"a lot" would be an understatement, as shown by examples of what others can do without needing specific food, weapons, sigils, runesets and such. Soul beast needs 1 trait. 1 heal to remove 12 Conditions. How much can ALL of the Inspiration line remove? 7. So 5 less than a single Trait and a single skill. Thats again, also not adding in any of the other condi removal they have with their pets and other abilities and traits.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@bart.3687 said:How does Soulbeast remove 12 conditions over 6 seconds with one heal? Druid can remove 12 (if im not mistaken) when he enters Celestial Avatar if he uses a trait for it, but Soulbeast on heal?

@bart.3687 said:On topic: I find mesmer's condi cleanse to be in a okay spot, especially when you go Mirage. Inspiration provides a lot of condi cleanse too, even more so now that it cleanses on phantasm summon too (my only issues with Inspiration are Focus trait placement, garbage GMs if you don't play support, and Mender's purity since its nerf some time ago).That being said, I wouldn't say no to some very minor cleanses in other traitlines as well, but they shouldn't be too powerful. It's not necessary though.

PS. You said you use Mirage Advance. To my mind, this utility is pretty bad compared to other choices. It's way better to slot Blink, Illusionary Ambush or Cleanse mantra/arcane thievery imo. From my experience, any of these is way more useful and helpful against condis than Mirage Advance, so maybe you should to try it?

@bart.3687 said:Fair enough, forgot about this skill. It's kinda bad against power builds though, so that's the tradeoff.

True, but its nice they have those options. They have good power based heals, they good condi heals. Something quite a few classes have. Except Mesmer.

@bart.3687 said:Currently, I find it better to have many small condi cleanses instead of few massive cleanses, and that's what Inspiration provides. Also, Mesmer doesn't need to cleanse that much because you can actively mitigate/evade hits that apply condis in the 1st place (esp when you play Mirage). You don't just stand there and eat everything, you can evade, go invisible or blink out of the danger zone, at least that's what I usually try to do.

PS. You said you use Mirage Advance. To my mind, this utility is pretty bad compared to other choices. It's way better to slot Blink, Illusionary Ambush or Cleanse mantra/arcane thievery imo. From my experience, any of these is way more useful and helpful against condis than Mirage Advance, so maybe you should to try it?

I'd rather have a solid amount, some classes get sustained removal and burst removal. Mesmer has many small removals but they are reliant on using long cool down skills. Like the condi removal on shatter, If it was like 1 Condition per a shatter clone that hits that would be good, maybe give it like a small cool down, making it so that its not just illusions that remove conditions but includes clones would be helpful as well.

Stealth means nothing though with all the AoE condis that are pretty much everywhere and they are normally not single conditions but several different conditions all at the same time :/ Something that annoys me, you get jumped and condi bombed, you eat a LOT of damage where as most other classes and builds have skills and abilities to use to counter condi bombs. Mesmer would have to use several different skills and abilities, others can press a single button and they are better off.

Yeah i do currently use it and too be honest i do find it kinda meh. I am currently running Illusioanry Ambush, Decoy and Mirage Advance, but as i said i am kinda tempted to drop it for the Mantra. It is an okay skill, the cast time is REALLY crappy though and i think it should be 1,200 for both parts rather than 900 to the target and then 1,200 to teleport back :/

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:In practice with dodge food, adventurer runes with 12s heal, energy sigils and perma vigour, Elusive Mind is a powerhouse condi cleanse by itself, nevermind in combination with other skills. Adding to that, high evade uptime allows avoidance of incoming condi application in the first place - so not only having high cleanse potential but negating initial application.

In wvw conditions are very rarely the thing that kills me - rather it's usually direct damage.

Though I would certainly agree that there should be some kind of condi removal options in other lines to encourage build diversity.

@Lalainnia.3598 said:No need for condi removal buffing dischanter was just nice condi removal because it would also clear boons and keep clearing condis if you happened to not shatter pretty much best of both worlds will just have to get used to it or slot in a different utility/trait which mes actually does have.

I'm in T2 EU (WSR linked with Deso) and while yes you do come across some condition heavy roamers on the whole it's a pretty even mix that I've seen. FB+Scourge/reaper is the most troublesome condition roamer I've had to fight as FB can heal and support the scourge/reaper, insta rez when they down with stab and aegis.

Condi engineer: They generally burst overload you from stealth but after that usually useless, avoid initial burst and counter burst 100-50%, they will run.Condi ranger: Seriously these guys are rarely an issue, bleed, poison and maybe some burns with a sprinkle of immob/cripple. EM+Jaunt can handle it.Condi thief: If it's the perma dodge variety, stealth, get ooc and then slot mantra of distraction to lock them down at the end of their spammed evades.Condi war: Why are you complaining about this? EM+Jaunt = immune to it.Condi guard: Cleansing is on the last applied condition so whenever you get burn, cleanse and you'll be largely safe. Burst where you can and abuse stealth.Condi rev: These guys can burst crazy amounts of torment but largely it's just torment and a few covers. See above about guards and burn.Condi mes: See above about revs. If need be back off and leave the fight. A decent one will escape most of the time with mirage thrust so it's pointless.Condi ele: I...don't think this should qualify an answer, they only really have bleed and burn.Condi necro: If scourge range them as much as you can and just keep tickling them till burstable, then burst and kill. If supported don't try to win the 1v2 as you won't without a very specific build which ironically involves disenchanter to remove boons to prevent a rez. Reaper should be power, just range and kite.

If you're running into an outnumbered fight against a full condition group then you shouldn't fight outnumbered, get your friends and make it an even fight, focus one down and kill, then back off while someone at range kites and keeps them in combat to prevent rezzing the guy, druid is great for this. When you've all reset rinse and repeat till it's a slaughter.

@apharma.3741 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:In practice with dodge food, adventurer runes with 12s heal, energy sigils and perma vigour, Elusive Mind is a powerhouse condi cleanse by itself, nevermind in combination with other skills. Adding to that, high evade uptime allows avoidance of incoming condi application in the first place - so not only having high cleanse potential but negating initial application.

In wvw conditions are very rarely the thing that kills me - rather it's usually direct damage.

Though I would certainly agree that there should be some kind of condi removal options in other lines to encourage build diversity.

@Lalainnia.3598 said:No need for condi removal buffing dischanter was just nice condi removal because it would also clear boons and keep clearing condis if you happened to not shatter pretty much best of both worlds will just have to get used to it or slot in a different utility/trait which mes actually does have.

Wait so what’s this build that’s specialized for killing scourges? I’ve not had an issue fighting them so long as it’s 1v2 and not greater numbers than that.

@Jace al Thor.6745 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:In practice with dodge food, adventurer runes with 12s heal, energy sigils and perma vigour, Elusive Mind is a powerhouse condi cleanse by itself, nevermind in combination with other skills. Adding to that, high evade uptime allows avoidance of incoming condi application in the first place - so not only having high cleanse potential but negating initial application.

In wvw conditions are very rarely the thing that kills me - rather it's usually direct damage.

Though I would certainly agree that there should be some kind of condi removal options in other lines to encourage build diversity.

@Lalainnia.3598 said:No need for condi removal buffing dischanter was just nice condi removal because it would also clear boons and keep clearing condis if you happened to not shatter pretty much best of both worlds will just have to get used to it or slot in a different utility/trait which mes actually does have.

It's only if it's a scourge/reaper that's supported by a FB or another class that can essentially constantly rez them should you down them. You use disenchanter to remove stab and make them vulnerable to follow up CC to keep them from rezing only if you're outnumbered though. I find Chrono with chrono phantasma and GW the most effective and the superspeed shatters are a good bonus too. However mesmer has a lot of ways to remove boons and CC so it's not just 1 build or anything.

@Curunen.8729 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I think we can trait for a crazy amount of condi removal already, at least with mirage - EM, jaunt, RI, SV, Prestige, Mantra, Mender's Purity, AT, Null Field, Cleansing Sigils...

Sure I do think they should be spread out rather than overloaded on Inspiration - maybe Sympathetic Visage should be in Illusions. Chaos could possibly have a trait RNG converting condi to boons. Domination could have something like "on Interrupt transfer a condition to your target".

You would never run adventurer runes in any serious build, you would never blow 4 dodges for just condis, you would never spam all of jaunt for condies, and you would never run condi removing food in any serious WvW build, and in Spvp where you don't get those options it's worse.

@apharma.3741 said:

@Jace al Thor.6745 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:In practice with dodge food, adventurer runes with 12s heal, energy sigils and perma vigour, Elusive Mind is a powerhouse condi cleanse by itself, nevermind in combination with other skills. Adding to that, high evade uptime allows avoidance of incoming condi application in the first place - so not only having high cleanse potential but negating initial application.

In wvw conditions are very rarely the thing that kills me - rather it's usually direct damage.

Though I would certainly agree that there should be some kind of condi removal options in other lines to encourage build diversity.

@Lalainnia.3598 said:No need for condi removal buffing dischanter was just nice condi removal because it would also clear boons and keep clearing condis if you happened to not shatter pretty much best of both worlds will just have to get used to it or slot in a different utility/trait which mes actually does have.

Gotcha! I’m still tweaking my build and Pyro helped me out some last night and I’m having to get used to using Mantra for my condi cleanse and not Inspiration. The biggest thing I’m missing is any kind of boon removal but it’s not hindered me so far. Mantra has been enough of a cleanse so far, the only issue I have is if/when I get ganked or am severely outnumbered. With Inspiration it’s really easy to get used to having the condi removal on heal, phant summon, and shatter so transitioning to the mantra will take a while and I might try traited AT but then I lose out on the damage reduction.

Alright can i ask you guys then something? is there a condi removal elsewhere other than mirage? as in chrono or core?

@"Axl.8924" said:Alright can i ask you guys then something? is there a condi removal elsewhere other than mirage? as in chrono or core?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition

That’s has everything to deal with conditions and condi removal.Core Mesmer has inspiration and traited signets in domination for condi removal and the utility skills.Chrono has no condi removal traits but one or two of the wells does.Mirage has condi reduction and removal.

@"Axl.8924" said:Alright can i ask you guys then something? is there a condi removal elsewhere other than mirage? as in chrono or core?

Inspiration:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Restorative_Illusionshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mender%27s_Purityhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sympathetic_VisageDomination:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blurred_Inscriptions

Utilities:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Eternity (chrono-exclusive)https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Null_Fieldhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Thieveryhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_ResolveTorch:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Prestige