Nerfing Popular Builds != Promoting Build Diversity

In light of the recent PvP/WvW skill split post it seems to most that their respective professions popular builds are getting nerfed for the sake of

Increase build diversity

By decreasing the power of some of the more dominant builds, we hope to give increased viability to builds that previously were pushed out by these dominant specs. We're also increasing power levels in some targeted areas that previously were underperforming.

While I am all for there being more builds to us to choose from, nerfing popular builds is the worst route to take in achieving that goal. For a couple different reasons which I will list below.1) Nerfing popular builds does not mean other weapon sets will rise

For example thieves are getting nerfs to both S/D and D/P their two top builds. Not only are the other weapon sets not getting adjustments or changes, but fundamental issues with those weapon sets are also not being addressed. D/D and P/P are simple spam 3 builds with 0 mobility, and now D/P might fall back into that category since Heartseeker will be a main source of damage. If these nerfs hit harder than they look on paper, other thief builds will only rise up because of my next point

2) Nerfing popular builds can potentially nerf a profession out of the meta completely

Thief as far as I can remember has always been on the cusp of unfavorable in PvP, along with a few other professions. As I stated above if S/D and D/P become very mediocre all they have are other mediocre builds to look at that no one prefers anyways. Again I am sure this goes for every profession. There are builds can CAN work, but nerfing builds that do does not solve any issues.

3) Nerfs for the sake of build diversity = Less player choice

I think this is a point that is overlooked completely. If I am a new player and I decide to play a cheese or non meta build in ranked pvp, I will get flamed to the max. Ranked is heavily meta focused which means players will be siloed into specific builds for the sake of not wanting to screw over their fellow players. The overall goal shouldn't be to remove power from dominant builds, it should be addressing fundamental issues, asking your players why XYZ weapon combos aren't used, and then addressing those issues instead of forcing builds into diversity by nerfing more dominant ones.

4) At the end of the day. Players will always choose the most dominant build

If you don't go back and address fundamental/synergy issues, you're goal of build diversity will never happen. This is seen in really anything where the overall objective is to win the round. Players want to give their best team the chance at winning. If I was in a race and I got the option to drive a Buggati Veyron vs Ford Focus ST and a Lancer Evolution. I am obviously going to choose the Veyron. Taking a bat to the Veyron and slashing its tires and cutting its brakes doesn't make the other two better options because they had modifications done. It makes them better choices by force which is not a good thing.

I urge you to take your time and ask each professions community about the changes 1 by 1

Thank you for reading

Thief has ok nerfs and larcenous strike was untouched. IS and SS damage buffed for some reason too.

Maybe D/D could be viable with the ini reduction, just wish they made it unblockable.

@Razor.6392 said:Thief has ok nerfs and larcenous strike was untouched. IS and SS damage buffed for some reason too.

Maybe D/D could be viable with the ini reduction, just wish they made it unblockable.

We won't know until it goes live, but still nerfing to force diversity is a bad route to take. I don't think there has been a single time in the history of gw2 where devs actively asked for feedback on weapon sets other than the expansions.

Nerfing everything just makes gameplay boring because everything you do feels weaker and slower than it did before.

Anet needed to buff the useless stuff. I really wish they'd talk to people who are experienced in their respective classes before they make these types of changes. I'm all for nerfing Druid, but they did it in the wrong way. Those changes will remove Druid from the meta and make playing it even more boring than it was after the first round of nerfs.

@shadowpass.4236 said:Nerfing everything just makes gameplay boring because everything you do feels weaker and slower than it did before.

Anet needed to buff the useless stuff. I really wish they'd talk to people who are experienced in their respective classes before they make these types of changes. I'm all for nerfing Druid, but they did it in the wrong way. Those changes will remove Druid from the meta and make playing it even more boring than it was after the first round of nerfs.

You're pretty spot on. Or honestly talk to everyone in the respective communities. I am sure all of us would be willing to have a dialogue with the devs.

It seems like you're biased about Thief being nerfed. In reality, nerfing every class's top dog build and bringing up less effective builds to match the sweet spot is a good thing. Some people like to experiment with builds--adding a new level of depth to PVP. Players will be able to stay in the PVP scene for a longer duration because of all the options.

Spamming needs to be punishable--noone likes spam. If most or all issues with combat are addressed and taken care of, the build balancing can work exceptionally.

@Abelisk.4527 said:It seems like you're biased about Thief being nerfed. In reality, nerfing every class's top dog build and bringing up less effective builds to match the sweet spot is a good thing. Some people like to experiment with builds--adding a new level of depth to PVP. Players will be able to stay in the PVP scene for a longer duration because of all the options.

Spamming needs to be punishable--noone likes spam. If most or all issues with combat are addressed and taken care of, the build balancing can work exceptionally.

But they aren't bringing up less effective builds? I can't really be biased to thief getting nerfed when thats pretty much been the professions history, but from the thread and the overall thread it seems like everyone is displeased.

I have the most experience with thief and don't want to speak for other professions.

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Abelisk.4527 said:It seems like you're biased about Thief being nerfed. In reality, nerfing every class's top dog build and bringing up less effective builds to match the sweet spot

is

a good thing. Some people like to experiment with builds--adding a new level of depth to PVP. Players will be able to stay in the PVP scene for a longer duration because of all the options.

Spamming needs to be punishable--noone likes spam. If most or all issues with combat are addressed and taken care of, the build balancing can work exceptionally.

They're also nerfing engineer's entire new spec with the changes to PF, and doing nothing to bring up any other builds.

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Abelisk.4527 said:It seems like you're biased about Thief being nerfed. In reality, nerfing every class's top dog build and bringing up less effective builds to match the sweet spot

is

a good thing. Some people like to experiment with builds--adding a new level of depth to PVP. Players will be able to stay in the PVP scene for a longer duration because of all the options.

Spamming needs to be punishable--noone likes spam. If most or all issues with combat are addressed and taken care of, the build balancing can work exceptionally.

And Necro's with super harsh cooldown nerfs, which will only mean anything to higher levels of play.

Heck, they're nerfing core Necro and Reaper as well with the Plague Signet and Last Gasp nerfs.

Nerfing everything is exactly what PvP needs to be more engaging. Everything nowadays survives WAY too easy nowadays by rotating invulns, everyone has way too many defensives so that counting dodges isn't even a really important thing, and everyone can burst way too frequently, rather than being punished with a long wait for missing important skills.

Skills are all too overloaded, and starting to nerf them down is the exact path needed for them to move towards actual strategic fighting.

The power-creep has been too extreme since expansions started, and it is good that they are pursuing more nerfs than buffs.

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Razor.6392 said:Thief has ok nerfs and larcenous strike was untouched. IS and SS damage buffed for some reason too.

Maybe D/D could be viable with the ini reduction, just wish they made it unblockable.

No, its not. When you only ever see 1 or 2 builds its because they are overperforming compared to the rest of the builds that class has available to it. Overperforming means they need to be nerfed.

@shadowpass.4236 said:Nerfing everything just makes gameplay boring because everything you do feels weaker and slower than it did before.

Anet needed to buff the useless stuff. I really wish they'd talk to people who are experienced in their respective classes before they make these types of changes. I'm all for nerfing Druid, but they did it in the wrong way. Those changes will remove Druid from the meta and make playing it even more boring than it was after the first round of nerfs.

that's not the wrong way, that's the right way because druid takes 0 effort to perform and make bad players look super cool, delete that spec good job anet.

@Elxdark.9702 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Nerfing everything just makes gameplay boring because everything you do feels weaker and slower than it did before.

Anet needed to buff the useless stuff. I really wish they'd talk to people who are experienced in their respective classes before they make these types of changes. I'm all for nerfing Druid, but they did it in the wrong way. Those changes will remove Druid from the meta and make playing it even more boring than it was after the first round of nerfs.

I'm not against nerfing Druid. I just really dislike cooldown increases. I'd much rather see number reductions/reduced effectiveness.

Cooldown increases just slow down the pace of the gameplay, which is really bad.

How does the cd increase slow down the gameplay while defensive stuff gets nerfed??? Plz explain this logic. And how is nerfing power creep and spam and bad? Omg so much bias and bad in this thread..... while i agreefor dd pp thief, saying thief was unfavourable in pvp most time is just wrong.

@BlackBeard.2873 said:Nerfing everything is exactly what PvP needs to be more engaging. Everything nowadays survives WAY too easy nowadays by rotating invulns, everyone has way too many defensives so that counting dodges isn't even a really important thing, and everyone can burst way too frequently, rather than being punished with a long wait for missing important skills.

Skills are all too overloaded, and starting to nerf them down is the exact path needed for them to move towards actual strategic fighting.

The power-creep has been too extreme since expansions started, and it is good that they are pursuing more nerfs than buffs.

Precisely :+1:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Nerfing everything just makes gameplay boring because everything you do feels weaker and slower than it did before.

disagreeeeeThere has been a lot of power creep. We need more nerfs than buffs. This game is filled with one-shots and invulns and full heals. A lot of all or nothing. That makes gameplay boring imo.

@reikken.4961 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Nerfing everything just makes gameplay boring because everything you do feels weaker and slower than it did before.

Sorry I should clarify further. I agree that we need more nerfs than buffs. What I meant to say was:

Nerfing cooldowns on passive skills are okay. Nerfing cooldown on skills that you have to manually activate just slows down the pace of the game. Reductions to effectiveness and numbers is a much better way to tweak skills. Cooldown increases to active skills aren't.

I just hope they don't nerf mesmers and eles too hard.Been playing a lot of mesmer lately and they are kinda fun blowing stuff up.On top of that, i learned that ethereal renewal actually makes casts of phantasms instant again, and i can use defender.

For eles:Not sure anymore what role tempest has now that weaver is king.

I really like the preview. For GW2 PvP less is more. I approve both the reduced efficiency of skills and the increased CDs. Slowing down the pace is a good thing. Baiting abilities and proper timing might actually become valuable again.

@OriOri.8724 @BlackBeard.2873

If you think nerfing builds that are good is the right path you are only half right if the other options don't have fundamental issues which is why specific weapon sets are not used. Thief for example had S/D and D/P nerfed but no other weapon sets were buffed or changed at all. P/P will still be a cheese build highly dependent on Deadeyes tree, D/D will still be more or less useless, and P/D and P/S haven't been used in ages.

I am not against nerfing overperforming builds, but there are also underlying issues to a lot of weapon sets that need to be addressed. At this point it just seems Anet is forcing players to play sets they don't want to play.

Back to my car example. If you have two shit tier cars and a high end car, stripping the high end car does not make the shit tier cars more attractive because they were also modified to bring them in line, only because they destroyed the better option.

You can't just nerf stuff down without addressing issues as well. You need to do both.

@omgdracula.6345 said:@OriOri.8724 @"BlackBeard.2873"

If you think nerfing builds that are good is the right path you are only half right if the other options don't have fundamental issues which is why specific weapon sets are not used. Thief for example had S/D and D/P nerfed but no other weapon sets were buffed or changed at all. P/P will still be a cheese build highly dependent on Deadeyes tree, D/D will still be more or less useless, and P/D and P/S haven't been used in ages.

I am not against nerfing overperforming builds, but there are also underlying issues to a lot of weapon sets that need to be addressed. At this point it just seems Anet is forcing players to play sets they don't want to play.

Back to my car example. If you have two kitten tier cars and a high end car, stripping the high end car does not make the kitten tier cars more attractive because they were also modified to bring them in line, only because they destroyed the better option.

You can't just nerf stuff down without addressing issues as well. You need to do both.

Your example is perfect. Its clearly what needs to happen. Drop the one high car to the "unatractive" level so they all on the same level.

A question..... Do you think holo or scrapper engi is more fun than core?

@Milan.9035 From what I have seen Holosmith looks pretty fun, but I had fun on core engie as well. Engi I think actually has a bunch of fun builds that are also viable or were viable