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Mesmer deceives its way past the PVP & WVW split


Razor.6392

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Can we all agree that mesmer is ANet's golden child for once and for all?

MesmerSkills

Illusion of Life: Reduced the cooldown from 120 seconds to 75 seconds in PvP and WvWPhantasmal Disenchanter – Increased the cooldown from 20 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW

Traits

Elusive Mind: This trait now applies 4 seconds of Exhaustion when breaking a stunCompounding Power: Reduced the outgoing damage buff per stack from 3% to 2% in PvP and WvWPhantasmal Force: Reduced the Might granted from 3 stacks to 2 stacks in PvP and WvWMirror of Anguish: Increased cooldown from 60 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only

Side note holy shit, holosmith got destroyed lol. F

No larcenous strike changes tho LUL

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The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

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@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

Hey Cmc, I'm kinda confused what you guys mean by splits? Meaning any suggestions we make need to be split between PvP and WvW?

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@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

I saw Seed of LIfe had a 2 second ICD increase. What about increasing the amount of conditions it clears? Or perhaps increasing the healing effectiveness of the seed of life? Making it blossom immediately? Increasing its radius? Making it pulse twice?

If you are trying to increase diversity Druid's major master tier, Celestial Shadow still remains supreme and your suggested change will further cement this. Glyphs are underperforming in PvP/WvW and although my suggestions wouldn't necessarily change this at all, it would at least increase this trait's viability and desirability, even if just by a bit.

This is just a simple change that immediately came to my mind.

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@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

Confounding suggestion is probably the most frustrating thing about mesmers personally. The instant burst from stealth is problematic too. No idea exactly what to change so I just try to articulate what I find annoying.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

Hey Cmc, I'm kinda confused what you guys mean by splits? Meaning any suggestions we make need to be split between PvP and WvW?

When splitting a skill we're looking at changing numbers on skills rather than functionality.

  • Damage/healing numbers
  • Cooldowns
  • Durations of boons/conditions/effects

Essentially the skill should behave the same in every game mode, but can be more or less effective at what it does on a per-gamemode basis.

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Especially since this patch is focused on toning down instant casts, mantra of distraction + confounding suggestions combo really should be changed. Instant ranged stun on a short cool-down that can easily be combo'd into a 100-0 burst is very unhealthy game play. Rework confounding suggestions into something that gets rid of the instant stun so you can still dodge mirror blade burst.

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@Cal Cohen.3527 said:

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

Hey Cmc, I'm kinda confused what you guys mean by splits? Meaning any suggestions we make need to be split between PvP and WvW?

When splitting a skill we're looking at changing numbers on skills rather than functionality.
  • Damage/healing numbers
  • Cooldowns
  • Durations of boons/conditions/effects

Essentially the skill should behave the same in every game mode, but can be more or less effective at what it does on a per-gamemode basis.

Thanks for the clarification!

Would you guys also consider suggestions to skills that weren't listed in the proposed changes?

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

Hey Cmc, I'm kinda confused what you guys mean by splits? Meaning any suggestions we make need to be split between PvP and WvW?

When splitting a skill we're looking at changing numbers on skills rather than functionality.
  • Damage/healing numbers
  • Cooldowns
  • Durations of boons/conditions/effects

Essentially the skill should behave the same in every game mode, but can be more or less effective at what it does on a per-gamemode basis.

Thanks for the clarification!

Would you guys also consider suggestions to skills that weren't listed in the proposed changes?

Absolutely

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@Cal Cohen.3527 said:

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

Hey Cmc, I'm kinda confused what you guys mean by splits? Meaning any suggestions we make need to be split between PvP and WvW?

When splitting a skill we're looking at changing numbers on skills rather than functionality.
  • Damage/healing numbers
  • Cooldowns
  • Durations of boons/conditions/effects

Essentially the skill should behave the same in every game mode, but can be more or less effective at what it does on a per-gamemode basis.

Thanks for the clarification!

Would you guys also consider suggestions to skills that weren't listed in the proposed changes?

Absolutely

You just made me so happy <3

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@Cal Cohen.3527 said:

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

Hey Cmc, I'm kinda confused what you guys mean by splits? Meaning any suggestions we make need to be split between PvP and WvW?

When splitting a skill we're looking at changing numbers on skills rather than functionality.
  • Damage/healing numbers
  • Cooldowns
  • Durations of boons/conditions/effects

Essentially the skill should behave the same in every game mode, but can be more or less effective at what it does on a per-gamemode basis.

Thanks for the clarification!

Would you guys also consider suggestions to skills that weren't listed in the proposed changes?

Absolutely

Shroud degeneration for Reaper really needs to be looked at. With how much damage is getting thrown around Reaper has been suffering from a seriously short life expectancy ever since the November patch pushed us to 5% degeneration.

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@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

Elusive Mind: This trait now applies 4 seconds of Exhaustion when breaking a stunthats huge. the entire mirage line plays off dodging. Ambush attacks, the mirage-unique mechanic, are only able to be used after using a dodge.how is mesmer anet's golden child?Anet JUST destroyed the mirage meta build completely by killing confusion. It was deleted from top tier play.If any more things are nerfed on top of already nerfing the dodges as proposed here, mirage will just become garbage tier.This elusive mind nerf is about as much as the class can take, because again, when you nerf endurance on mirage, you're also nerfing the damage output, sword leap mobility, condi cleanse (all of these things are tied to using dodge)

Chronomancer needs more nerfs more badly than mirage does.Right now phantasms are doing ridiculous amounts of damage when resummoned with Chronophantasma. I think they should do less damage and have less HP, basically the 2nd life could be a toned down version of the phantasm.

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@Crinn.7864 said:The change to Elusive Mind is fairly heavy though. Unlike Daredevil, Mesmer does not have skills that directly give endurance, which means that the Exhausion debuff could really mess with them.

Although yes, Mirage will certainly remain in the meta.

Infinite Horizon will be used instead. It's not like they can't dodge while CC'd anyway...

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@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

In my opinion, it is not Confounding Suggestions what needs to be changed. Even with it out of the equation, mesmer remains a really obnoxious threat due to massive clone / phantasm spam as of last patch. I don't think a split could change the overtuned phantasms (disenchanter, swordsman) and the traits related (imagined burden).

A mirage spamming clones is extremely hard to deal with. They will simply switch to Infinite Horizon from Elusive Mind and keep facerolling away.

Perhaps False Oasis could have 30s CD in pvp and wvw up from 25, but other than that, I can't think of anything else.

Power mesmers had to get creative with clone generation if they wanted to take superiority complex over deceptive evasion. The phantasm changes have made it so that DE is completely skippable. You get more than enough clones from imagined burden, and if you happen to be a chrono then fun times are ahead with chronophantasma.

Shoutouts to the anime fgc fan in the mesmer dev team btw.

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@ArthurDent.9538 said:Especially since this patch is focused on toning down instant casts, mantra of distraction + confounding suggestions combo really should be changed. Instant ranged stun on a short cool-down that can easily be combo'd into a 100-0 burst is very unhealthy game play. Rework confounding suggestions into something that gets rid of the instant stun so you can still dodge mirror blade burst.

If you change that then you will also have to change thief steal.These mechanics have been in the game since the start, there is such a thing as baiting

I think Domination's bonus damage on shatter (GM Trait) could be toned down to stop these 1 shots from happening, but we dont need to completely rework the mechanics

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@MLGKorno.5419 said:

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

Elusive Mind: This trait now applies 4 seconds of Exhaustion when breaking a stunthats huge. the entire mirage line plays off dodging. Ambush attacks, the mirage-unique mechanic, are only able to be used after using a dodge.how is mesmer anet's golden child?Anet JUST destroyed the mirage meta build completely by killing confusion. It was deleted from top tier play.If any more things are nerfed on top of already nerfing the dodges as proposed here, mirage will just become garbage tier.This elusive mind nerf is about as much as the class can take, because again, when you nerf endurance on mirage, you're also nerfing the damage output, sword leap mobility, condi cleanse (all of these things are tied to using dodge)

Chronomancer needs more nerfs more badly than mirage does.Right now phantasms are doing ridiculous amounts of damage when resummoned with Chronophantasma. I think they should do less damage and have less HP, basically the 2nd life could be a toned down version of the phantasm.

it will have zero condi cleanse . how it will be faceroll ? lol

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@musu.9205 said:

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

Elusive Mind: This trait now applies 4 seconds of Exhaustion when breaking a stunthats huge. the entire mirage line plays off dodging. Ambush attacks, the mirage-unique mechanic, are only able to be used after using a dodge.how is mesmer anet's golden child?Anet JUST destroyed the mirage meta build completely by killing confusion. It was deleted from top tier play.If any more things are nerfed on top of already nerfing the dodges as proposed here, mirage will just become garbage tier.This elusive mind nerf is about as much as the class can take, because again, when you nerf endurance on mirage, you're also nerfing the damage output, sword leap mobility, condi cleanse (all of these things are tied to using dodge)

Chronomancer needs more nerfs more badly than mirage does.Right now phantasms are doing ridiculous amounts of damage when resummoned with Chronophantasma. I think they should do less damage and have less HP, basically the 2nd life could be a toned down version of the phantasm.

it will have zero condi cleanse . how it will be faceroll ? lol

Inspiration line = lots of condi clearthe people who run Dom Duel for 1 shot mes are doing it on Core mes for the most part.

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@MLGKorno.5419 said:

@"Cal Cohen.3527" said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

Elusive Mind: This trait now applies 4 seconds of Exhaustion when breaking a stunthats huge. the entire mirage line plays off dodging. Ambush attacks, the mirage-unique mechanic, are only able to be used after using a dodge.how is mesmer anet's golden child?Anet JUST destroyed the mirage meta build completely by killing confusion. It was deleted from top tier play.If any more things are nerfed on top of already nerfing the dodges as proposed here, mirage will just become garbage tier.This elusive mind nerf is about as much as the class can take, because again, when you nerf endurance on mirage, you're also nerfing the damage output, sword leap mobility, condi cleanse (all of these things are tied to using dodge)

Chronomancer needs more nerfs more badly than mirage does.Right now phantasms are doing ridiculous amounts of damage when resummoned with Chronophantasma. I think they should do less damage and have less HP, basically the 2nd life could be a toned down version of the phantasm.

it will have zero condi cleanse . how it will be faceroll ? lol

Inspiration line = lots of condi clearthe people who run Dom Duel for 1 shot mes are doing it on Core mes for the most part.

in current meta , you won't have enough burst with inspiration line ,not sure after all those nerfs to sustain . and despite all the hater saying how mirage evade everything , it can't sustain in fight for too long not when other team thief keep power mesmer in check . btw spellbreaker will be the winner after this patch.which also heavily counters power mesmer or most power builds .

and i like how anet entirely deleted condition mirage ( it was op for sure ) but never going to slightly buff it in a patch that is supposed to "Increase build diversity"(i don't think condi engi or condi zerker will be a thing anytime soon but buff are nice ) coz everyone hates that build (including many mesmer main since its rather braindead for a mesmer build ).

also since they are going to heavy nerf EM (mesmer relies on endurance regen much more than dd ), how about the entire mirage trait line which is trash .like 1.5s protection on mirage cloak .we hardly have any meaningful pick in minor and master tier .

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@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

I have a few thoughts on the listed mesmer changes, but to sum them up in one sentence - I think they are pretty bad. They don't address the burst issues mesmer has, they don't address the fact that we can have sustain in chrono and still pull off a deadly burst, but most importantly (to me) is the nerf to EM. I never agreed with the exhaustion mechanic back when it was placed on UC, but it especially doesn't make sense on EM. Mirage does not offer flat endurance regen, so exhaustion cuts out all of our endurance regen while we have it. But more than that, Mirage uses dodges offensively, whereas UC was a purely defensive skill. Not only do we not have the flat endurance regen to sort of offput the exhaustion in a limited scope, but we also lose out on a lot of potential offensive pressure, all while having 50 less endurance to start with than DD got. Simply put, the exhaustion has a significantly higher burden on Mirage than it does on DD.

Take a look at the mesmer forums for some better ideas on EM. My favorites are to either simply remove the stunbreak (potentially adding something else there), give the stunbreak a ~10sec ICD, but have an UI element showing when it is available (such as changing the color of our endurance bar), or change it so that it turns stuns into dazes, allowing us to move but not use skills (the opposite of confounding suggestions)

Along with that, I would propose the following changes to mesmer

  • Shatter Storm needs to be removed or at the very least given the Imagined burden treatment wherein each charge of MW would be about 25% weaker than a regular MW
  • Chronophantasma should be changed so that the phantasms do not become clones at all. Getting 2 phantasms from a single skill is enough of a tradeoff to not obtain any clones at all. This would go quite a ways to combat clone generation spam in chrono builds atm.

But other than that I would like to leave the class more or less alone for right now (the rest of your listed changes look good to me btw). It just had its complete overhaul and I am scared of you guys reactively nerfing too much of it because just a few pieces are overperforming, and turning it into trash. I think that Em and the 2 above changes are some of the biggest pain points right now, and would like to change those and re-evaluate the class a few weeks after it goes live to see what else should be changed.

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I like what OriOri said quite a bit..

As far as EM goes, you could also consider a sharp dps reduction while evading. Something like...while under mirage cloak...you do -50% damage. As it is, there aren't enough tradeoffs in this game, and when effects as powerful as EM are added, there should be some. Mirage allowing your build to keep bursting/pressure with literally NO RECOURSE for counter-pressure (because dodging just makes you invuln rather than breaking your animation) is quite a mistake, in my opinion. Dodges are well-balanced by the fact that they break animation and cut your dps output, in exchange for slight respositioning and short invuln. Mirage invuln has...no downside.

So...its not used in every meta build, but it is a GM trait at adept tier. I would suggest adding a debuff to shatterstorm, something like:

Mind Wrack is now an ammo skill. Mind Wrack does -25% damage (PvP only). If you are going to give a GM trait at adept tier, it needs to have a drawback. Making mind-wrack spammable insulates you from making mistakes (missed once? nbd, just shatter again for a 2nd chance to 1-shot). At least reducing the damage makes this a choice of "more frequent/consistent damage" vs. "higher risk/higher reward damage."

I would also add that phantasms should have their dps just toned down in pvp overall. As it is, having mesmers be so rewarding rather than an insulated niche REALLY hurts fight visuals. Fights with more than 1 mesmer are just a sea of pink...and it truly destroys the enjoyable flow of the fight. The new phantasm rework has made this even more apparent, and I have regularly see armies of clones chasing a player even with 1 mesmer.

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