Just nerf Sand Savant already!

It's decently well known that Scourge is oppressive in PvP, but ANet seems intent on nerfing everything except the problem. This isn't the first time they've done this (there were several builds they did this with in GW1, and it's been the case for more in GW2).

The actual problem with Scourge in PvP AND WvW is the same: it covers too much area with the shade. Of course, the baseline shade size isn't a problem either, even with three.

The problem is with the trait Sand Savant. With this trait, a single shade can cover a capture point entirely and perpetually. Without it, a Scourge can only cover an entire point for a short period and then have very little coverage at all as the ammo recharges.

Here's my suggestion: Remove the radius increase and single-shade aspects of Sand Savant. Target increase and reduced recharge are fine to keep, and the trait may be a good candidate for a more comprehensive rework in the future.

What does this accomplish?

1. Reduces the oppressive nature of Scourge as opponents can actually contest a point without needing to be inside the danger zone the entire time. If the Scourge decides to cover the entire point with all three shades, they can only do so for ~9 seconds before having a long downtime.
2. Reduces the area that Scourges can control in WvW, allowing for more effective pushes.
3. Raises the skill level needed for success on the Scourge, as they must work to predict movements or CC foes to try and keep them in range.
4. Does not affect non-meta builds in PvP or WvW and has minimal effect in PvE (where it's only considered for Blood Support Scourge, and even then, not a given.)

If this were to happen, chances are, the proposed Scourge nerfs wouldn't be necessary at all.

Please, ANet. Try hitting the actual problem first instead of everything around it.

Or, they could rework scourge gameplay completely. It's like they asked themselves "how can we make the most cancerous, least interactive, and spam rewarding class possible?" And then they designed scourge. When your gameplay is just dump a bunch of pulsing circles on a person, you're either op or useless, depending how fast those circles kill you.

Sand savant is just like "hey you want this to be even easier? Pick this trait!" So trashing that would be a nice bandaid, but without a big overhaul scourge will continue to be loathed by every non scourge forever.

Scourge simply needs a re-focus. Take away the corrupting part of it which causes massive problems with the very mechanic of persisting AoE circles and re-add it later in some other elite specialization that won't have so cancerous nature. Rework it into what it was supposed to be - a support. Right now the entire specialization is incredibly muddied as a result of trying to confine the power of condition/corruption focused scourge. It's certainly not a support, it has minor support aspects at best and every patch distances it even further.

As far as Sand Savant goes, I disliked this trait from day one, even as a concept; Here you have this whole new mechanic of managing three charges of Shades, every single minor trait is based around you managing Shades correctly giving temporary stat and damage reduction boosts and Shades are small enough by design so there's always some safe space. Now there comes the final trait that deletes all these aspects. What?It's like if one developer worked on the new mechanic and traits and on the final day another developer went to his desk, pulled pants down and took a dump on his work, creating Sand Savant.

It's the equal of making a new Mesmer trait that limits the amount of clones to one, but counting as three. Fun design.

I think OP made a very good suggestion and I think it would work that way.I would like to add though that perhaps making Sand Swell an instant cast teleport would be nice.I mean we are nerfing Scourge into a less and less effective close proximity role...would make sense to make us more mobile...

I'd suggest reducing the radius increase by half to +60 and removing the target increase altogether for the sake of WvW.

Really, the trait just needs a total rework. It single-handedly makes the spec overbearing. I think the shade cooldown reduction would be good to keep, but the rest would probably be healthier for the game if it wasn't there. The target increase is fine in PvP (you won't have that many targets to hit often) and I would argue it's still fine in WvW if it all had the smaller radius (you're not getting 5 targets in 180 radius).

If you nerf the radius, then they would have to lift the other nerfs, or necros would be very bad.I seriously doubt they would anything less someone complains about necro and necro gets nerfed.My biggest concern, is that the radius would hurt scourge in pve where it already suffers from the drastic nerfs.In pvp having small range:Fine, but for pvp you would need the bigger radius for hitting multiple enemies and dealing enough damage to multiple enemies.

For PvE, it's solved by placing another shade. You can keep two up almost indefinitely there even without Sand Savant.

And yes, they would have to lift the other nerfs. It's better that they make a nerf to the proper thing in the first place than having to re-buff everything else later when they finally decide to hit the core problem and the result is complete and utter garbage.

Use my Warrior build in my signature.... You can face tank most scourges with it.

Something is wrong when a skills radius is nearly the exact size as a capture point. That is NOT right. It removes the element of positioning. This is the greatest problem of scourge. They can either reduce the radius of the skill by half or make the points larger. Imagine if full counter was the size of the point, everyone would complain.

@Aza.2105 said:Something is wrong when a skills radius is nearly the exact size as a capture point. That is NOT right. It removes the element of positioning. This is the greatest problem of scourge. They can either reduce the radius of the skill by half or make the points larger. Imagine if full counter was the size of the point, everyone would complain.

Massive aoe skills are the death of skilled gameplay. They're nerfing passive invulns so they're making an effort to make gameplay more skill based,the next step is to massively scale back aoe's. Necro in general has to many place a circle on the ground abilities. Most of them should be reworked into different shapes, like lines or cones, and not be damage over time.

@sephiroth.4217 said:Use my Warrior build in my signature.... You can face tank most scourges with it.

Sephiroth is overrated man, you should go for luca blight.

@Flauvious.6195 said:

@Aza.2105 said:Something is wrong when a skills radius is nearly the exact size as a capture point. That is NOT right. It removes the element of positioning. This is the greatest problem of scourge. They can either reduce the radius of the skill by half or make the points larger. Imagine if full counter was the size of the point, everyone would complain.

Oh yeah I agree for sure. Lines and cones would be WAY better. That would actually require some sort of targeting. Right now all necro does is just spam every thing that isn't on cooldown on the point. How is that skilled? But yea man, I'm feeling those ideas you through out there.

Well first they should reduce holo burst, mesmer burst, weaver burst who all down a 30k HP scourge in two seconds. This type of gameplay makes PvP ridiculous and of trolling nature and not the ...sand radius. Last time I checked scourge can be knockbacked for free and even perma stunned when focused.

It's funny after consecutive nerfs for a class with no more than one viable build, there are still people complain about it.

@Aza.2105 said:Something is wrong when a skills radius is nearly the exact size as a capture point. That is NOT right. It removes the element of positioning. This is the greatest problem of scourge. They can either reduce the radius of the skill by half or make the points larger. Imagine if full counter was the size of the point, everyone would complain.

They should give to Scourge the same treatment that they gave to Turret Engi and DH, just nerf to the ground...like you said, every single of the skill are Huge AoEs, it removes skillfull gameplay and is way to rewarding for a easy to play style...so they either nerf it to the point that is next to useless, or rework the profession so it fills the role of support and leave the damage for Reaper.

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Aza.2105 said:Something is wrong when a skills radius is nearly the exact size as a capture point. That is NOT right. It removes the element of positioning. This is the greatest problem of scourge. They can either reduce the radius of the skill by half or make the points larger. Imagine if full counter was the size of the point, everyone would complain.

Yep one would think that scourge is support and reaper is suppose to be the bruiser. But nope, scourge is pretty much better in every way. The specialization is way too strong in a pvp setting, even with the recent nerfs. Its all because the amount of area coverage they have from their skills. And you know what is unbelievable? That its a problem with in wvw as well (I don't even play wvw). The difference is that wvw combat field dwarfs that of spvp and scourge's radius is still a problem there. That in itself is unbelievable.

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Aza.2105 said:Something is wrong when a skills radius is nearly the exact size as a capture point. That is NOT right. It removes the element of positioning. This is the greatest problem of scourge. They can either reduce the radius of the skill by half or make the points larger. Imagine if full counter was the size of the point, everyone would complain.

Thats really awful, just absolutely awful excuse.Yeah lets make sure this one class that is ultra weak to the point it requires to be babysat 24/7 can never kill anything and is a punching bag.I really hope nobody at anet listens to your reasoning because that is terrible reasoning to nerf a class.What we should be doing is balancing classes to make them better, by giving them some way to have fun.

It doesn't matter what class you play:Warrior/ele/mesmer/revenant/Ranger/engineer/Guardian/thief, if your class is under performing, it needs to be brought up in a way so its competitive vs the next class in some way or another, wether it be pvp or pve.Nerfing it withotu compensation just increases the power creep between classes, and hurts it and makes it less fun.

@Aza.2105 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Aza.2105 said:Something is wrong when a skills radius is nearly the exact size as a capture point. That is NOT right. It removes the element of positioning. This is the greatest problem of scourge. They can either reduce the radius of the skill by half or make the points larger. Imagine if full counter was the size of the point, everyone would complain.

Oh yeah, Scourge its cancer on WvW too, zerg fights is nothing but scourge red circles everywhere...its not really a fun experience lol.

@Axl.8924 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Aza.2105 said:Something is wrong when a skills radius is nearly the exact size as a capture point. That is NOT right. It removes the element of positioning. This is the greatest problem of scourge. They can either reduce the radius of the skill by half or make the points larger. Imagine if full counter was the size of the point, everyone would complain.

Like i said, nerf the damage potential and leave that role to Reaper but buff its support potential. Its not nerf without compensation, Scourge right now its not healthy for the game or necro, it complete overshadows Reaper on its only role.

The non stop condition spamming of Scourge is the main problem. They can do that with just sceptre! However, reducing the coverage of shades is definitely something I support.

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Aza.2105 said:Something is wrong when a skills radius is nearly the exact size as a capture point. That is NOT right. It removes the element of positioning. This is the greatest problem of scourge. They can either reduce the radius of the skill by half or make the points larger. Imagine if full counter was the size of the point, everyone would complain.

@Axl.8924 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Aza.2105 said:Something is wrong when a skills radius is nearly the exact size as a capture point. That is NOT right. It removes the element of positioning. This is the greatest problem of scourge. They can either reduce the radius of the skill by half or make the points larger. Imagine if full counter was the size of the point, everyone would complain.

Don't you see that would kill scourge? what if for an example they completely destroyed firebrand?

While i would love reaper to be stronger and viable, killing scourge isn't the answer.The reducing the radius is a interesting proposal, as long as they undo all other previous nerfs, which would make scourge shine in spvp.Scourge is also either support or our condi, but i don't want scourge to be killed, like i don't want tempest to be killed because weaver elite is out for ele, or killing daredevil because now we got deadeye on thief.

What they should do, and i hold this, is take an example like they did with ranger.They should add a unique playstyle, and advance on it making it stay useful.I think scourge is pretty unique as well, and so is daredevil with its polejumping acrobats.In fact:i love how daredevil has acrobatics and run real fast, its a lot of fun.

@Dreddo.9865 said:Well first they should reduce holo burst, mesmer burst, weaver burst who all down a 30k HP scourge in two seconds. This type of gameplay makes PvP ridiculous and of trolling nature and not the ...sand radius. Last time I checked scourge can be knockbacked for free and even perma stunned when focused.

It's funny after consecutive nerfs for a class with no more than one viable build, there are still people complain about it.

Because they didn’t nerf the thing they should have. They should’ve nerfed Sand Savant, and nerf the damage a bit less than they did.

@Flauvious.6195 said:

@Aza.2105 said:Something is wrong when a skills radius is nearly the exact size as a capture point. That is NOT right. It removes the element of positioning. This is the greatest problem of scourge. They can either reduce the radius of the skill by half or make the points larger. Imagine if full counter was the size of the point, everyone would complain.

If they nerfed the radius of tempest overloads, staff ele electric field, and thunder clap from scrapper, they need start nerfing scourge radius.

AOE is a big problem. I would like to pick up other classes that don't require a big circle to do dps damage.

No class has this type of power. Were if they move to a point all enemies evacuate the point because they don't want to die. The way scourge is designed is that they are bullies. They can decap because no one can contest them on the point, no matter how much condi removal or resistance they have. That is just ridiculous.

@Aza.2105 said:No class has this type of power. Were if they move to a point all enemies evacuate the point because they don't want to die. The way scourge is designed is that they are bullies. They can decap because no one can contest them on the point, no matter how much condi removal or resistance they have. That is just ridiculous.

What's really sad is that Scourge in general is NOT designed this way. That power comes almost entirely from a single trait.

The very trait I'm calling to nerf.

I would say Sand Savant nerf is going to happen just by history of all necro nerfs. Since vanila necro was given treatment: if to weak, give it broken trait, then nerf everything else because necro is overperforming, then nerf the broken trait to leave class in the gutter. I am calling this right now same thing is going to happen to scourge.