Let’s also fix up the Condi System before we neuter professions more — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Let’s also fix up the Condi System before we neuter professions more

Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited February 23, 2018 in PVP

These will be simplified suggestions... The changes will be great for spvp and wvw, and the rest of the game too.

AMA quotes to start...

“We’re looking at the condition damage issues that are inherent to the scaling number of players in WvW. Major mode-centric changes are a major part of balance patches and we’ll be iterating through several potential changes specifically for WvW. I wouldn’t expect huge mode-specific balance changes before the first post-PoF balance patch”

“Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”

The Suggestions...

A stat, that players can build for with gear, that mitigates condi damage... Toughness would be my personal preference.

Remove condition damage from auto-attacks.

Weapon attacks designed for condition damage are changed to DoT (damage over time) skills using 1 particular condition damage per tick. Examples using the AMA quotes for guidance... A power weapon skill is assigned to hit for 1,000 raw damage. A new condi DoT skill is assigned to hit for 1,200 condition damage, and hits an opponent for 300 condition DoT damage over 4 seconds.

Ranger Shortbow damage type examples using the above suggestion...

~Crossfire- X power damage. No bleeds.
~Poison Volley- X poison DoT over X seconds.
~Quick Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.
~Crippling Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.
~Concussion Shot- X power damage.

*You keep in place all the other secondary “stuff” going on with the skills. So Quick Shot still provides evade and swiftness... Crippling Shot still provides cripple and immobilize...

Assign each individual weapon skill and slot skill to use only 1 type of DoT damaging condition. You still keep secondary movement impairing and hard conditions on skills...
Look at the difference between these skills and you’ll see what I mean.

Way crazy and over-the-top condi skill, and highlights the overarching condi issues this game faces...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Spite

Well designed condi skill, and what I’m talking about with the above with assigning 1 DoT condi to all skills.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Is_Power

Cleansing skills become power and condi DoT damage mitigation skills, but they still remove secondary soft (cripple, chill, ...) and hard (daze, knock down... ) condition effects. These redesigned cleanses do not remove condi DoT damage...

Skills that produce hard condition effects remain the same.

All stats and equipment remain and function the same way, except expertise...Either remove expertise so the devs can have duration control on skills for balance, or expertise can function like precision does, but only for condi DoT damage.

Comments

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    These will be simplified suggestions... The changes will be great for spvp and wvw, and the rest of the game too.

    AMA quotes to start...

    “We’re looking at the condition damage issues that are inherent to the scaling number of players in WvW. Major mode-centric changes are a major part of balance patches and we’ll be iterating through several potential changes specifically for WvW. I wouldn’t expect huge mode-specific balance changes before the first post-PoF balance patch”

    “Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”

    The Suggestions...

    A stat, that players can build for with gear, that mitigates condi damage... Toughness would be my personal preference.

    Remove condition damage from auto-attacks.

    Weapon attacks designed for condition damage are changed to DoT (damage over time) skills using 1 particular condition damage per tick. Examples using the AMA quotes for guidance... A power weapon skill is assigned to hit for 1,000 raw damage. A new condi DoT skill is assigned to hit for 1,200 condition damage, and hits an opponent for 300 condition DoT damage over 4 seconds.

    Ranger Shortbow damage type examples using the above suggestion...

    ~Crossfire- X power damage. No bleeds.
    ~Poison Volley- X poison DoT over X seconds.
    ~Quick Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.
    ~Crippling Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.
    ~Concussion Shot- X power damage.

    *You keep in place all the other secondary “stuff” going on with the skills. So Quick Shot still provides evade and swiftness... Crippling Shot still provides cripple and immobilize...

    Assign each individual weapon skill and slot skill to use only 1 type of DoT damaging condition. You still keep secondary movement impairing and hard conditions on skills...
    Look at the difference between these skills and you’ll see what I mean.

    Way crazy and over-the-top condi skill, and highlights the overarching condi issues this game faces...

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Spite

    Well designed condi skill, and what I’m talking about with the above with assigning 1 DoT condi to all skills.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Is_Power

    Cleansing skills become power and condi DoT damage mitigation skills, but they still remove secondary soft (cripple, chill, ...) and hard (daze, knock down... ) condition effects. These redesigned cleanses do not remove condi DoT damage...

    Skills that produce hard condition effects remain the same.

    All stats and equipment remain and function the same way, except expertise...Either remove expertise so the devs can have duration control on skills for balance, or expertise can function like precision does, but only for condi DoT damage.

    There is an issue with that.Condis last only a couple of seconds, and in like 8 seconds it has to deal enough damage to be threatening, also:There is still a lot of cleanses and reduction skills to deal with.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2018

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:
    Just be honest and say "remove conditions from the game entirely", because that's clearly what you want.

    Interesting... So how does this suggestion of changing the current condition damage system to uncleansible condition DoT damage, with all secondary effects remaining in place, “remove conditions from the game entirely”? Is this because I suggested a stat (like toughness) to mitigate a certain amount of condi damage, like toughness and armor do against power damage? Or maybe because I suggested the current cleanses only provide some defense to condi damage, like protection reduces power damage?

    Is this your first mmo? Never heard of DoT damage tied to secondary control effects before? Did you even bother to process the suggestion? Hmmm?

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2018

    They've already 'fixed up' the condi system many times, and after recent patches most builds are back to power or hybrid builds.

    And all of your suggestions don't understand how condi is supposed to work, why it exists in the game, or why it exists in most games for that matter. Condi is a defense breaker to prevent people from tanking 24/7, which is an even worse problem in GW2 than it is in other MMOs because GW2 has no Holy Trinity and thus everyone can be a DPS, tank, and healer all rolled into the same build, more or less.

    One thing that is often in repeated in threads like this like "but power builds don't have defense" which completely ignore all the large amounts of runes, sigils, passive traits, signets, and other defense present on these builds--some can actively avoid most damage.

    What you suggest effectively replaces condi with mediocre DoTs that are reduced by defense, which defeats the point.

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  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    They've already 'fixed up' the condi system many times, and after recent patches most builds are back to power or hybrid builds.

    And all of your suggestions don't understand how condi is supposed to work, why it exists in the game, or why it exists in most games for that matter. Condi is a defense breaker to prevent people from tanking 24/7, which is an even worse problem in GW2 than it is in other MMOs because GW2 has no Holy Trinity and thus everyone can be a DPS, tank, and healer all rolled into the same build, more or less.

    One thing that is often in repeated in threads like this like "but power builds don't have defense" which completely ignore all the large amounts of runes, sigils, passive traits, signets, and other defense present on these builds--some can actively avoid most damage.

    What you suggest effectively replaces condi with mediocre DoTs that are reduced by defense, which defeats the point.

    I fully understand how well the designs have worked in a ton of other games successfully.

  • @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:
    Just be honest and say "remove conditions from the game entirely", because that's clearly what you want.

    I mean, "condition damage" really isn't a thing in most games, because it's a toxic design and frusterating to play against. Most games dot effects are just certain skills that do regular damage over time, like a warrior always has some sort of bleed ability that deals dot that is determined by the same stats that determine the rest of its damage. Condition damage as a whole seperate damage type that completely ignores an armor makes no sense. It's should be something added on to certain skills for the purpose of piercing high armor, a damage supplement to the power damage of your blows.

    Right now it's just like ok, here you can choose 2 damage types, one ignores armor and one doesn't. Which one do you want? I think there should be no condition damage stat, just some skills that apply slight damaging conditions that scale off power or whatever.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2019

    @Knighthonor.4061 we also need to re-evaluate conditio and cc designs and defenses for wvw and pvp play!

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:
    Hey Swag you say this about the resources for WvW, please make a thread detailing where and what in WvW you want the resources to go to. I want to read that.

  • Condi output actually isn't too bad at the moment. Each class spec has an easily accessible means of removing condis through their rotation as it stands right now. There's only a few outliers that can pump more conditions that can be realistically cleansed, and they are being nerfed surprisingly quickly.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭

    Mmm, year and a half old thread necro.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How the heck did you even find this thread? :lol:

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You have a problem with condis no matter what you do.

    You either design them to ramp doing damage over time letting players be tanky and giving them to much sustain. Making power redundant.
    Or
    You make them burst and happen within a short period of time while maintaining more defensive stats, OR becoming a glass cannon, still making power redundant assuming it's on par.
    Or
    Condi is left underpowered and you make it and the builds that rely on it redundant.

    The 4 second example is a poor one. If a thief can back stab me in one shot and do 18k from stealth, that is still better than 3 - 5 attacks landing and only doing 16k - 18k over 4 seconds. I only need 1 good evasion to avoid the 18k, if I blow both dodges then I have to eat the 16k unless I have a cleanse, and even then if it takes me a moment to be able to cast it, or finish an animation or something before I can get a cleanse off I still eat an unavoidable 8k.
    Realistically this is more accurate to what you experience in game; if it was 1 attack = 1,000 vs 1 condi = 1,000/4 seconds then fine. But there is nothing in game that plays out that way, and the idea of condi just doing more brings us back to the two redundancies above.

    Regardless of that example, the dynamic of a second damage type is lost somewhere in the realm of effectiveness.
    For the sake of balance, for the health of the game; we should just remove condi damage ammulets, runes, traits, and sigils. Still allowing for the utility ones to function as normal, and flat out balance the game around power. That also includes builds that will under perform that rely on condi.

    Power at the end of the day is a one to one interaction, and relatively fair. If we can balance the game around that interaction we would have a significantly healthier game.

    I know it's drastic and frankly I wouldn't want to go down that route, but it's been years and this issue has always been present.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Condi output actually isn't too bad at the moment. Each class spec has an easily accessible means of removing condis through their rotation as it stands right now. There's only a few outliers that can pump more conditions that can be realistically cleansed, and they are being nerfed surprisingly quickly.

    Except for the fact that condis are less a thing and power is more of a thing and condi cleanses are still not nerfed with the ridiculous output and people still cry for scourge nerf, whenn boons are still far too prevalent.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Condi output actually isn't too bad at the moment. Each class spec has an easily accessible means of removing condis through their rotation as it stands right now. There's only a few outliers that can pump more conditions that can be realistically cleansed, and they are being nerfed surprisingly quickly.

    Except for the fact that condis are less a thing and power is more of a thing and condi cleanses are still not nerfed with the ridiculous output and people still cry for scourge nerf, whenn boons are still far too prevalent.

    yep, look at holo. swiftness 30s of vigor, 20 stacks of might, quickness, protection regeneration.
    i started using 2x annulment sigils but it doesnt even matter, remove a boon and its back in 5s maximum. clown fiesta i tell ya

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    The 4 second example is a poor one. If a thief can back stab me in one shot and do 18k from stealth, that is still better than 3 - 5 attacks landing and only doing 16k - 18k over 4 seconds. I only need 1 good evasion to avoid the 18k, if I blow both dodges then I have to eat the 16k unless I have a cleanse, and even then if it takes me a moment to be able to cast it, or finish an animation or something before I can get a cleanse off I still eat an unavoidable 8k.
    Realistically this is more accurate to what you experience in game; if it was 1 attack = 1,000 vs 1 condi = 1,000/4 seconds then fine. But there is nothing in game that plays out that way, and the idea of condi just doing more brings us back to the two redundancies above.

    Regardless of that example, the dynamic of a second damage type is lost somewhere in the realm of effectiveness.
    For the sake of balance, for the health of the game; we should just remove condi damage ammulets, runes, traits, and sigils. Still allowing for the utility ones to function as normal, and flat out balance the game around power. That also includes builds that will under perform that rely on condi.

    Power at the end of the day is a one to one interaction, and relatively fair. If we can balance the game around that interaction we would have a significantly healthier game.

    I know it's drastic and frankly I wouldn't want to go down that route, but it's been years and this issue has always been present.

    What's the difference between conditions in GW2 and DoT effects in other games?
    Answer is that in those other games DoT effects can't be cleansed(Warlock curses from WoW come to mind) and you have to counter them with healing. Which means that there isn't as many skills that actually do them. There's also no separate stat that makes them do more damage as they scale from the same stats as the attacks you'd consider "power" in GW2 terms. That means you don't have to balance power vs condi damage, you just consider the damage based on a single sliding scale.

    This game steering away from having a trinity would've meant, should've this more traditional design been used for GW2, that there would be no one really to outheal that DoT that will make you dead in about 5 seconds. So they gave us conditions and cleanses instead.
    Gw1 had cleanses as well but they were a bit different. Most of the skills, while cleansing yes, would also have another benefit like turning the cleanse into healing or damage. You also didn't stack them and if they had damage, it was a static amount.

    That kinda leaves the conclusion that what went wrong in GW2 balancing actually stems from the core, launch level design of the game, not from the expansions. Though they certainly magnified the issue.

  • Remember the good old days.... https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Condition

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Uncle Dalty.8327 said:
    Remember the good old days.... https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Condition

    This.

    I've proposed a system like gw1 a lot of times on these forums.
    Make condis damage cap at lowish end and make extra condi damage that isn't dealing damage negate healing and regen. Of course you'll also need to remove a ton of condi cleanses.

    The degenerate

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2019

    @Uncle Dalty.8327 said:
    Remember the good old days.... https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Condition

    ye... imo condis and dots in general should always be supplemental and debilitating, not a main source of damage. its a balancing nightmare and playing against condis for many ppl is not fun.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459

    I agree with you that removing cleanse as far as damaging conditions and changing to toughness to mitigate damage would help simplify the condition system.

    However, (1) this will be too much effort to implement and (2) people will still complain because they don’t understand condi as a damage type and won’t be helped by death breakdowns that only show the condition type and not the abilities they were hit with.

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    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • OutOfOrder.3719OutOfOrder.3719 Member ✭✭✭

    Nerf Warrior and Holosmith power damage output first!

    Condi damage has been nerfed to the point that only 2 professions can be effective : Scourge and Mirage.

  • @OutOfOrder.3719 said:
    Nerf Warrior and Holosmith power damage output first!

    Condi damage has been nerfed to the point that only 2 professions can be effective : Scourge and Mirage.

    as it should be.... it's not a fun mechanic to play against how it is currently implemented... but yes everything should be toned down

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2019

    @Uncle Dalty.8327 said:

    @OutOfOrder.3719 said:
    Nerf Warrior and Holosmith power damage output first!

    Condi damage has been nerfed to the point that only 2 professions can be effective : Scourge and Mirage.

    as it should be.... it's not a fun mechanic to play against how it is currently implemented... but yes everything should be toned down

    Taking damage of any type is not a fun mechanic. Use condy removal. Toughness replacing removal is an ill thought out idea - at the moment you have a choice, instead with this new toughness you would simply build a godtank

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Uncle Dalty.8327 said:

    @OutOfOrder.3719 said:
    Nerf Warrior and Holosmith power damage output first!

    Condi damage has been nerfed to the point that only 2 professions can be effective : Scourge and Mirage.

    as it should be.... it's not a fun mechanic to play against how it is currently implemented... but yes everything should be toned down

    Taking damage of any type is not a fun mechanic. Use condy removal. Toughness replacing removal is an ill thought out idea - at the moment you have a choice, instead with this new toughness you would simply build a god tank.

    Personally I stack condy removal and hate playing players who stack for power/crit. Horses for courses.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No thanks for Toughness mitigating Condi damage. It already mitigates power damage. I'd rather have Healing power mitigating condi damage since you actually need to invest in it, not having it for free because you play x class.

  • @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Uncle Dalty.8327 said:

    @OutOfOrder.3719 said:
    Nerf Warrior and Holosmith power damage output first!

    Condi damage has been nerfed to the point that only 2 professions can be effective : Scourge and Mirage.

    as it should be.... it's not a fun mechanic to play against how it is currently implemented... but yes everything should be toned down

    Taking damage of any type is not a fun mechanic. Use condy removal. Toughness replacing removal is an ill thought out idea - at the moment you have a choice, instead with this new toughness you would simply build a god tank.

    Personally I stack condy removal and hate playing players who stack for power/crit. Horses for courses.

    I never suggested that toughness should reduce condi damage... I think that's a bad idea.... All I did was point to the gw1 implementation of condition damage.... you know... from back when anet had at least half a clue as to what they were doing.

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