Let’s also fix up the Condi System before we neuter professions more — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Let’s also fix up the Condi System before we neuter professions more

Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited February 23, 2018 in PVP

These will be simplified suggestions... The changes will be great for spvp and wvw, and the rest of the game too.

AMA quotes to start...

“We’re looking at the condition damage issues that are inherent to the scaling number of players in WvW. Major mode-centric changes are a major part of balance patches and we’ll be iterating through several potential changes specifically for WvW. I wouldn’t expect huge mode-specific balance changes before the first post-PoF balance patch”

“Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”

The Suggestions...

A stat, that players can build for with gear, that mitigates condi damage... Toughness would be my personal preference.

Remove condition damage from auto-attacks.

Weapon attacks designed for condition damage are changed to DoT (damage over time) skills using 1 particular condition damage per tick. Examples using the AMA quotes for guidance... A power weapon skill is assigned to hit for 1,000 raw damage. A new condi DoT skill is assigned to hit for 1,200 condition damage, and hits an opponent for 300 condition DoT damage over 4 seconds.

Ranger Shortbow damage type examples using the above suggestion...

~Crossfire- X power damage. No bleeds.
~Poison Volley- X poison DoT over X seconds.
~Quick Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.
~Crippling Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.
~Concussion Shot- X power damage.

*You keep in place all the other secondary “stuff” going on with the skills. So Quick Shot still provides evade and swiftness... Crippling Shot still provides cripple and immobilize...

Assign each individual weapon skill and slot skill to use only 1 type of DoT damaging condition. You still keep secondary movement impairing and hard conditions on skills...
Look at the difference between these skills and you’ll see what I mean.

Way crazy and over-the-top condi skill, and highlights the overarching condi issues this game faces...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Spite

Well designed condi skill, and what I’m talking about with the above with assigning 1 DoT condi to all skills.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Is_Power

Cleansing skills become power and condi DoT damage mitigation skills, but they still remove secondary soft (cripple, chill, ...) and hard (daze, knock down... ) condition effects. These redesigned cleanses do not remove condi DoT damage...

Skills that produce hard condition effects remain the same.

All stats and equipment remain and function the same way, except expertise...Either remove expertise so the devs can have duration control on skills for balance, or expertise can function like precision does, but only for condi DoT damage.

Comments

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    These will be simplified suggestions... The changes will be great for spvp and wvw, and the rest of the game too.

    AMA quotes to start...

    “We’re looking at the condition damage issues that are inherent to the scaling number of players in WvW. Major mode-centric changes are a major part of balance patches and we’ll be iterating through several potential changes specifically for WvW. I wouldn’t expect huge mode-specific balance changes before the first post-PoF balance patch”

    “Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”

    The Suggestions...

    A stat, that players can build for with gear, that mitigates condi damage... Toughness would be my personal preference.

    Remove condition damage from auto-attacks.

    Weapon attacks designed for condition damage are changed to DoT (damage over time) skills using 1 particular condition damage per tick. Examples using the AMA quotes for guidance... A power weapon skill is assigned to hit for 1,000 raw damage. A new condi DoT skill is assigned to hit for 1,200 condition damage, and hits an opponent for 300 condition DoT damage over 4 seconds.

    Ranger Shortbow damage type examples using the above suggestion...

    ~Crossfire- X power damage. No bleeds.
    ~Poison Volley- X poison DoT over X seconds.
    ~Quick Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.
    ~Crippling Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.
    ~Concussion Shot- X power damage.

    *You keep in place all the other secondary “stuff” going on with the skills. So Quick Shot still provides evade and swiftness... Crippling Shot still provides cripple and immobilize...

    Assign each individual weapon skill and slot skill to use only 1 type of DoT damaging condition. You still keep secondary movement impairing and hard conditions on skills...
    Look at the difference between these skills and you’ll see what I mean.

    Way crazy and over-the-top condi skill, and highlights the overarching condi issues this game faces...

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Spite

    Well designed condi skill, and what I’m talking about with the above with assigning 1 DoT condi to all skills.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Is_Power

    Cleansing skills become power and condi DoT damage mitigation skills, but they still remove secondary soft (cripple, chill, ...) and hard (daze, knock down... ) condition effects. These redesigned cleanses do not remove condi DoT damage...

    Skills that produce hard condition effects remain the same.

    All stats and equipment remain and function the same way, except expertise...Either remove expertise so the devs can have duration control on skills for balance, or expertise can function like precision does, but only for condi DoT damage.

    There is an issue with that.Condis last only a couple of seconds, and in like 8 seconds it has to deal enough damage to be threatening, also:There is still a lot of cleanses and reduction skills to deal with.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Hyper Cutter.9376Hyper Cutter.9376 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just be honest and say "remove conditions from the game entirely", because that's clearly what you want.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2018

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:
    Just be honest and say "remove conditions from the game entirely", because that's clearly what you want.

    Interesting... So how does this suggestion of changing the current condition damage system to uncleansible condition DoT damage, with all secondary effects remaining in place, “remove conditions from the game entirely”? Is this because I suggested a stat (like toughness) to mitigate a certain amount of condi damage, like toughness and armor do against power damage? Or maybe because I suggested the current cleanses only provide some defense to condi damage, like protection reduces power damage?

    Is this your first mmo? Never heard of DoT damage tied to secondary control effects before? Did you even bother to process the suggestion? Hmmm?

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2018

    They've already 'fixed up' the condi system many times, and after recent patches most builds are back to power or hybrid builds.

    And all of your suggestions don't understand how condi is supposed to work, why it exists in the game, or why it exists in most games for that matter. Condi is a defense breaker to prevent people from tanking 24/7, which is an even worse problem in GW2 than it is in other MMOs because GW2 has no Holy Trinity and thus everyone can be a DPS, tank, and healer all rolled into the same build, more or less.

    One thing that is often in repeated in threads like this like "but power builds don't have defense" which completely ignore all the large amounts of runes, sigils, passive traits, signets, and other defense present on these builds--some can actively avoid most damage.

    What you suggest effectively replaces condi with mediocre DoTs that are reduced by defense, which defeats the point.

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  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    They've already 'fixed up' the condi system many times, and after recent patches most builds are back to power or hybrid builds.

    And all of your suggestions don't understand how condi is supposed to work, why it exists in the game, or why it exists in most games for that matter. Condi is a defense breaker to prevent people from tanking 24/7, which is an even worse problem in GW2 than it is in other MMOs because GW2 has no Holy Trinity and thus everyone can be a DPS, tank, and healer all rolled into the same build, more or less.

    One thing that is often in repeated in threads like this like "but power builds don't have defense" which completely ignore all the large amounts of runes, sigils, passive traits, signets, and other defense present on these builds--some can actively avoid most damage.

    What you suggest effectively replaces condi with mediocre DoTs that are reduced by defense, which defeats the point.

    I fully understand how well the designs have worked in a ton of other games successfully.

  • @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:
    Just be honest and say "remove conditions from the game entirely", because that's clearly what you want.

    I mean, "condition damage" really isn't a thing in most games, because it's a toxic design and frusterating to play against. Most games dot effects are just certain skills that do regular damage over time, like a warrior always has some sort of bleed ability that deals dot that is determined by the same stats that determine the rest of its damage. Condition damage as a whole seperate damage type that completely ignores an armor makes no sense. It's should be something added on to certain skills for the purpose of piercing high armor, a damage supplement to the power damage of your blows.

    Right now it's just like ok, here you can choose 2 damage types, one ignores armor and one doesn't. Which one do you want? I think there should be no condition damage stat, just some skills that apply slight damaging conditions that scale off power or whatever.

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