I am ok with thief in general but...Larcenous strike is busted

I am really ok with thieves, not major grievances ...it's just Larcenous strike I have problem with :

-big damage-Unblockable-2 boon steal

Too much going on for a single skill, I don't get anet why they insist with this design ideology of having a single skill virtually doing everything on its own, full counter comes to mind but I leave that for another time.Something must be taken away from that combo, those 3 elements should be fairly distributed....not stacked together for an explosive result and especially now that you're planning to reduce ( rightly so ) passive gameplay.

Yeah no, that's not the "problem' with the s/d thief build. The real powerful detail is that build having 2 steals.

@"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:Yeah no, that's not the "problem' with the s/d thief build. The real powerful detail is that build having 2 steals.

Yeah you mean the bountiful theft + actual skill ...add endurance food in wvw and you can see where I am coming from

nerf shadow shot too. dang teefs deserve it. always runnin round, causin ruckus.

@"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:Yeah no, that's not the "problem' with the s/d thief build. The real powerful detail is that build having 2 steals.

Yeah, I'd say Swindler's Equilibrium and Improvisation are the most cancerous out of them all :D

Thief first problem is that there is no counter...only other thief can be a threat when played properly (see sidrener games)Then highest mobility with top 1v1 capabilities should never happen.Then invulnerability ratio is out of control(never ending dodge)Then highly rewarding skill (like larcenous strike)should never be spammable. Dodge + unlockable + boon steal...lol Anet seriously...buy a brain

I mean just look at sidrener games to see how rewarding and unrisky this class is when played well.

After 5 years we are still there...just incredible...

All these complaints about thieves, man... yet Shatter Mesmers are 100x more toxic.

@Arheundel.6451 said:I am really ok with thieves, not major grievances ...it's just Larcenous strike I have problem with :

-big damage-Unblockable-2 boon steal

Too much going on for a single skill, I don't get anet why they insist with this design ideology of having a single skill virtually doing everything on its own, full counter comes to mind but I leave that for another time.Something must be taken away from that combo, those 3 elements should be fairly distributed....not stacked together for an explosive result and especially now that you're planning to reduce ( rightly so ) passive gameplay.

But LS was not a problem when flanking strike was blockable though sometimes hitting someone for 7k seems a bit overkill.

Has op played a S/D thief for more than 2 games against competent people ? If not the thread can be closed.

Being stuck in a really prevedible animation is sure OP as hell. Also it requires you to not button mash (like you can do with almost every class). It requires a decent mechanical skill and it's absolutely non spammable against competent players.

Ah let's not forget about the fact that S/D thief meta has ABSOLUTELY no way to access stealth. Stop looking just one ability/skill and watch the whole picture

I mean sure S/D thief has so much better damage than D/P it doesn't even need stealth to plus 1, but either way if you find yourself needing stealth there is dagger 5 or just steal from a thief, could drive up your gameplay to silver perhaps.

And whilst we look at the whole picture:

1. Double steal with improvisation every 20s
2. Quadruple glob every boon in the game * 4 every 20s
3. Walls don't exist anymore thanks to sword 2
4. Also easy los behind said walls thanks to sword 2 return
5. MORE evades and invuln than D/P thanks to flanking strikes and passive
6. Practically the same level of mobility as D/P

Anet nerfed SD for a reason years ago, and recently they undid all the nerfs and then even went into the opposite direction by making the skills better than they were.

1st part of Larc shouldn't be unblockable imo. They could still just charge it on other targets but at least that'd be effort.

@polvere.2805 said:Has op played a S/D thief for more than 2 games against competent people ? If not the thread can be closed.

Ah let's not forget about the fact that S/D thief meta has ABSOLUTELY no way to access stealth. Stop looking just one ability/skill and watch the whole picture

Cloak and Dagger

Y'all can discuss nerf ideas and all but just remember that before this build came into play, Larcenous Strike and s/d in general might as well not have existed for a few years. FS being blockable and animation-locking the user made s/d absolutely worthless since your enemy had to practically walk into FS.

Nerfing this build will also just bring back d/p Daredevil and the same people will be complaining about infinite stealth, shadowshot and pulm.

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@polvere.2805 said:Has op played a S/D thief for more than 2 games against competent people ? If not the thread can be closed.

Ah let's not forget about the fact that S/D thief meta has ABSOLUTELY no way to access stealth. Stop looking just one ability/skill and watch the whole picture

Oh yeah totally forgot about that. Still it's not really a reliable form of stealth apart from using it on downed people. The animation is so slow that requires a steal or some form of shadowstep to safely land (6 initiative is no joke). Sadly if the enemy sees you using CnD from afar he already knows what will happen next --> Easy dodge of steal + CnD.

@polvere.2805 said:

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@polvere.2805 said:Has op played a S/D thief for more than 2 games against competent people ? If not the thread can be closed.

Ah let's not forget about the fact that S/D thief meta has ABSOLUTELY no way to access stealth. Stop looking just one ability/skill and watch the whole picture

Bait out dodges by casting CnD halfway and stowing weapon to cancel. Wacky mind games, but they work right?

@polvere.2805 said:

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@polvere.2805 said:Has op played a S/D thief for more than 2 games against competent people ? If not the thread can be closed.

Ah let's not forget about the fact that S/D thief meta has ABSOLUTELY no way to access stealth. Stop looking just one ability/skill and watch the whole picture

I mean that's the same philosophy with sword 3 you see them casting it from 1200 range away and dodge right? Still doesn't stop it from working 99.99% of the time.

@Arheundel.6451 said:I am really ok with thieves, not major grievances ...it's just Larcenous strike I have problem with :

-big damage-Unblockable-2 boon steal

Too much going on for a single skill, I don't get anet why they insist with this design ideology of having a single skill virtually doing everything on its own, full counter comes to mind but I leave that for another time.Something must be taken away from that combo, those 3 elements should be fairly distributed....not stacked together for an explosive result and especially now that you're planning to reduce ( rightly so ) passive gameplay.

I'm fine with raising the init cost, making it blockable, or reducing the damage slightly, but not more than one of those at once. it has a tiny range. I'd prefer, if anything be done at all, it do slightly less damage, take one more init, or take one less boon. It's too personal and slow to be blockable imo.

@polvere.2805 said:

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@polvere.2805 said:Has op played a S/D thief for more than 2 games against competent people ? If not the thread can be closed.

Ah let's not forget about the fact that S/D thief meta has ABSOLUTELY no way to access stealth. Stop looking just one ability/skill and watch the whole picture

1/2 sec cast time is slow by thief standards but for most classes that is quite fast for what is a significant skill.

Double steal is moronic and needs to go.

Maybe if the requirement to get it wasn't so simple... I mean, evade an attack. Really?

@Inoki.6048 said:All these complaints about thieves, man... yet Shatter Mesmers are 100x more toxic.

. . .S/D is the counter to shatter mes if played correctly.

But I think thief is in a well balanced spot right now.Except HS, that needs to be buffed.

@Solori.6025 said:

@Inoki.6048 said:All these complaints about thieves, man... yet Shatter Mesmers are 100x more toxic.

No profession is in a balanced spot at this time besides rev.

@Razor.6392 said:Double steal is moronic and needs to go.

Maybe if the requirement to get it wasn't so simple... I mean, evade an attack. Really?

another silly thing anet did, should of kept the static recharge as it was before

No its fine. This skill will reduce the chances of bunkers rising again. Nerf across the board and bunkers will survive the skill split. I hate bunkers, you think sword 3 thieves are bad for the game, but I say bunkers are worse for the game. Something needs to kick sb butt too.

This same request comes up daily on multiple posts but literally only by 3 different people. 10-20 may think it needs to go but I would be willing to bet even more want FB bunkers, mage bunkers, and druids gone even more so.

larcenous strike is fine lol, its the only thing making s/d teef viable. if you nerf it then bunkers will never die and the game will be boring for everyone.

I would rather fight a s/d teef then a d/p teef.

Make steal cost 5 ini. There I just balanced thief forever...lol jk

Larcenous on it's own is fine, Flanking is a problem and there isn't much you can do about it without gutting it...Thief already has to much dodge, and it's just another one with a safe return option on sword 2 if you whiff.S/D has always been way to safe for the reward, people just like blind on demand, stealth on demand, and back-stab. However people get wiser and wiser to avoid back-stabs and with changes coming I don't blame anyone for shifting to unblock-able dodgy play.

But it's poor design to say "I can hit you freely and even ignore some of your defensive cooldowns, but you can virtually never hit me. But it's okay cuz if you do happen to hit me I die." Remember the claims about how mesmer was all like "Only thing that determined the match-up was how bad the one playing it was" that's what you're gonna get right here. Mirage only had 2 dodges, 1 long c/d evade at the cost of all their resources, and a 12 sec c/d on sword if running it, plus a bit of vigor. That is nothing to what thief kit has access to, one of which being solid endurance gains.

Only thing I think you really can do is just take away the unblock-able from Larcenous(, and not flanking)... Even if imo flanking is the real problem.Then reduce the instant nature of Infiltrators strike, but buff it's hit to solid damage.

Suggestions:Infiltrators strike - added 3/4 cast time. Damage increased by 33%. (13% more than the split suggestion)Infiltrator's Return - cast time reduced to 0. increase ini cost by 1

Flanking Strike - add .3 second to after castLarcenous Strike - no longer unblock-able.