Fractal builds and guides [dT]

https://discretize.eu/This thread is a bit twofold: first of all, I'd really like to thank the people at Discretize for updating their website with a LOT of valuable information around Fractals (builds, etc.). I've started to create my Spellbreaker straight away (easy switch from BS to DPS and back :) ), and practicing it a lot now.But the builds section also gave me a bit of an eerie feeling (once again). Not complaining to dT whatsoever, they just depict the truth, ... can't shoot the messenger. But as a once started Necro main (barely playing it anymore, cause I mostly play T4 fractals and raids these days), I feel really bad to see once more the value of Necro's in the PvE endgame, and in this case more specifically: Fractals, not even bringing 1 good build to the table. Every other class has at least 1 (or multiple) good/great or even meta builds, except for this class! And this is not a plea to ask guilds like dT, Snowcrows, etc. to put more Necro builds on their sites, it's directed at one very specific audience only: ANET: please fix the Necro in endgame PvE! They're laughable at best, atm!

Necro needs a (viable) powerbuild that is not Gravedigger spam

To be fair, good means bad in comparison to weavers... That is the first place to start fixing fractal dps choices.

@spiritualabyss.7016 said:To be fair, good means bad in comparison to weavers... That is the first place to start fixing fractal dps choices.

To be fair, you can see dhs and holosmiths in fractals and their performance isn't terrible, even when compared to skilled weavers. Worse, yes, but not terrible. And on the other hand a mediocre dh/holosmith is leaps and bounds ahead of a mediocre weaver. So the inherent problem of the necros aren't the weavers, it's the lack of decent power spec.

The only "nerf" Weaver need is a nerf to [tempest defense] because that trait is just busted in fractals. The problem necro has, as already stated, are "subpar" builds both relying on condi heavy teams (epidemic spam) or mobs needing a to reach a certain hp threshold, then spamming one skill and still be mediocre compared to other classes.

Add virtually zero support from the class (outside of barrier) and you get the current state.

dT are speedrunners; their focus is the absolute bleeding edge of what's possible. They're now recommending not even taking a healer; guess how well that's going to work in your average PUG. (Actually I rub my hands and chortle with schadenfreude as I picture lemmings trying to emulate dT and no longer being able to blame the druid when they die. I enjoy healing but I don't enjoy some folks thinking that I am now fully responsible for their healthbars while they stand in the fire.)

The reality in fractal PUGs is there are tons of scourges and even some reapers out there, most groups will give them a chance to prove themselves, most of them do fine, and it's not uncommon for a scourge to do top DPS (never a reaper, although I have seen a reaper hard carry all 10 ensolyss orbs on 99CM). DHs and holos outperform 90% of PUG weavers. Condi can't keep up on trash but can easily post top DPS on bosses. Any group where all DPS stay above 5k is going to complete dailies just fine, and any DPS build played with a modicum of effort can pass that low bar.

"The meta" is a very reductive view of the state of the game. It reflects a tiny minority of players, not the experience of the rank-and-file. If you want to take necro into fractals, get and run arcdps, train with your necro to a high level of performance, and you will mostly have a good time.

@Sister Saxifrage.7361 said:If you want to take necro into fractals, get and run arcdps, train with your necro to a high level of performance, and you will mostly have a good time.

All true except this one. You'll experience some insta-kicks when you join pug parties and they won't give you a chance to prove that you are a good player. Not a good time at all.

@Sister Saxifrage.7361 said:dT are speedrunners; their focus is the absolute bleeding edge of what's possible.

Not really. There's the experimenting, the curiosity to try and find something that's working better, but I'd say the main focus is the smooth fractal experience.

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Sister Saxifrage.7361" said:If you want to take necro into fractals, get and run arcdps, train with your necro to a high level of performance, and you will mostly have a good time.

That may be, but the type of group to insta-kick necros but too lazy to write "no necros" in their LFG post wouldn't be much fun to run with anyway.

@"Sister Saxifrage.7361" said:"The meta" is a very reductive view of the state of the game. It reflects a tiny minority of players, not the experience of the rank-and-file. If you want to take necro into fractals, get and run arcdps, train with your necro to a high level of performance, and you will mostly have a good time.

I did. Even in Raids, etc. Its usefulness is just a farcry away from my Mirage, Holo, DH and now even Spellbreaker. Hell, my just recently fully geared Soulbeast performs better (AND has stance share) than my Condi Scourge or Power Reaper. I play my Necro still every now and then, but only because he looks cool, and because it's rotations are in my blood and veins: almost played Scourge 24/7 the first few weeks when PoF came out and Reaper when HoT came out, only to know in a later stage that pretty much ALL other classes just completely outperform them when it comes to the PvE endgame.I haven't got my Fractal Savant title because of my Necro, I can tell you that (Bragging here of course wanting you to acknowledge my fractal godliness ;) , but still painfully true, though!)

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"spiritualabyss.7016" said:To be fair, good means bad in comparison to weavers... That is the first place to start fixing fractal dps choices.

I agree, a bad weaver is probably worse than a bad necro.The bad weaver will go down all the time, while the bad necro will pull 1k dps. Both are useless, really.

But if you are slightly better than the average player, i'm certain that weaver already pulls ahead. Even for pugs.I'd like to see a viable power build for necro in fractals, as it would add to diversity.A 34k power burst reaper would change nothing for the overall balance.

In fractals you have the god-tier weaver and then the "balanced tier", where currently everything else but necro, rev and probably thief is.

Think about it, if we remove weaver, we'd have almost a perfect balance. Everything offers about the same.I'm not for stomping weaver into nothingness (but i'd love if they'd do it lol) but at least bring it down to max 39k big hitbox.

It would still be desired, with the only difference that other classes actually can get reasonably close to them.

Currently, if i am playing dps in fractals (holo/chrono/DH) it makes me feel bad, when i have a weaver on my team:

There are two possible results: 1) If I outdps them, i know they are trash 2) if they outdps me it is because of balance.In a healthy balance you can tryhard and compete for "good" numbers, but with weavers you can only do this on weaver.

@spiritualabyss.7016 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@spiritualabyss.7016 said:To be fair, good means bad in comparison to weavers... That is the first place to start fixing fractal dps choices.

Your averages are way out of line. What you say only applies to "slightly better than average" players in gw2raidar stats. But remember, the players you see there, they are the small minority interested in raiding. They are far above the average. It's not a coincidence that when I pug with a t4+cm group and I see another weaver, he's usually pretty good. While the image of the typical pug weaver in lower tiers is that of the ground-hugging, wanna-be dps who fails all the time.

The healthy balance isn't in the tryhard region. The healthy balance is when you have meaningful "average" players have a choice. Currently both DH and Holos are in a pretty good position. They offer better reliability and maybe some utility in exchange for lower damage potential, which isn't that lower as to make them useless. This is what a good alternative looks like.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@spiritualabyss.7016 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@spiritualabyss.7016 said:To be fair, good means bad in comparison to weavers... That is the first place to start fixing fractal dps choices.

Hmm probably my averages are way out of line because I also run CM's+T4 dailies.I think its sad that as soon as you are tryharding you have to play weaver to compare, else its just pointless.See my POV of a decent boss in todays daily fracs - this is as much tryharding for a non weaver class as i can offer. I'm still far off of the weaver, while his numbers definitely arent the maximum you can get on his class.

When i play DH/Holo/Mesmer i get about the same numbers for fractal bosses. With weaver it takes me much less effort to get the same (last time i played it was around christmas, but i don't think much has changed).

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"spiritualabyss.7016" said:To be fair, good means bad in comparison to weavers... That is the first place to start fixing fractal dps choices.

Skilled weavers have up to 10-15k higher dps on certain encounters. Thats not comparable. Show me reaching 30k+ dps as dh at siax or ensy over whole fight. Its pretty easy as weaver.In raids condi scourges are actually optimal on 2 fights as far as i know. Sabetha and Desmina. Epi bounce is just that op.The new dT "meta" is questionable though. While it can be faster on some bosses it has a lot of drawbacks like slow/low vuln outside of glyph of storms. Low cc and low sustain. Normal air weavers with power druid should also have higher burst during breakbars.

@"spiritualabyss.7016" said:Hmm probably my averages are way out of line because I also run CM's+T4 dailies.I think its sad that as soon as you are tryharding you have to play weaver to compare, else its just pointless.See my POV of a decent boss in todays daily fracs - this is as much tryharding for a non weaver class as i can offer. I'm still far off of the weaver, while his numbers definitely arent the maximum you can get on his class.

When i play DH/Holo/Mesmer i get about the same numbers for fractal bosses. With weaver it takes me much less effort to get the same (last time i played it was around christmas, but i don't think much has changed).

Your run was in no way "average" compared to all other CM runs. In almost all pug runs you don't have those numbers and the druid can't chill in the mid like this because he has to kite at least more than one poison field till splits.

On the 100cm guide they show to use rock consumable to cc but we cant use rock inside fractals and dungeons :P wooden plank is the best for Artsariiv

@"Ze Dos Cavalos.6132" said:On the 100cm guide they show to use rock consumable to cc but we cant use rock inside fractals and dungeons :P wooden plank is the best for Artsariiv

You need the right ones bought from a Skritt named Kra'kronk. I use those every day at Aartsariv.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kra%27kronk

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"Ze Dos Cavalos.6132" said:On the 100cm guide they show to use rock consumable to cc but we cant use rock inside fractals and dungeons :P wooden plank is the best for Artsariiv

Ah I see, I never really bothered checking the other rock versions coz on dT website the rock link take us to the kessex hills npc's.I mean if they give a link teaching players on how to acquire the rocks they should give the link you just gave me.Other than that the website is very good.

@"Feanor.2358" said:

Your averages are way out of line. What you say only applies to "slightly better than average" players in gw2raidar stats. But remember, the players you see there, they are the small minority interested in raiding. They are far above the average. It's not a coincidence that when I pug with a t4+cm group and I see another weaver, he's usually pretty good. While the image of the typical pug weaver in lower tiers is that of the ground-hugging, wanna-be dps who fails all the time.

The healthy balance isn't in the tryhard region. The healthy balance is when you have meaningful "average" players have a choice. Currently both DH and Holos are in a pretty good position. They offer better reliability and maybe some utility in exchange for lower damage potential, which isn't that lower as to make them useless. This is what a good alternative looks like.

But shouldn't the high end content especially be considered, because with that logic the low end content is easier and less important? Class discrimination does not happen in low end content, it happens in raids and cm's. I don't like the gameplay of weaver, so should I forever be dismissed as an option by good groups? I like the concept of specilized dps classes for different encounters, but as it just happens to be, weaver is the best option for almost everything. To me it's ridiculous that everything out of the line other than weaver gets "fixed" fast (example Firebrand and Mirage). And with the exception of Firebrands Aegis on his heal skill both builds were equally narrow in their utility department just like weaver. It has to be the exposure right? If the build is too easy too many "average" players play it and reach the top dps and people don't like that apparently.There was a time in this game, were you could actually play different classes for different content for maximum efficiency. That was like a year ago, when FA Staff Tempest got nerfed and Tempest then had 3 builds (FA Staff for maxium cleave, FA Sc/Wh for maximum single target dps, FA D/Wh for easy rotation) at his disposal while still being the top, but only by a small margin. I wish we could get this time back, because I could actually play different classes without holding the group back.

But maybe I'm wrong. It's just sad that I can't play my favourite class, all I want is diversity.

@"Nephalem.8921" said:The new dT "meta" is questionable though. While it can be faster on some bosses it has a lot of drawbacks like slow/low vuln outside of glyph of storms. Low cc and low sustain. Normal air weavers with power druid should also have higher burst during breakbars.

For cc, they utilize items I hadn't considered before, like Wooden Planks or Rocks: https://discretize.eu/mechanics/consumables. A Stone deals 200 break bar damage, in comparison, Head Butt does 300. That's a pretty good addition to the group's natural crowd controls.

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Nephalem.8921" said:The new dT "meta" is questionable though. While it can be faster on some bosses it has a lot of drawbacks like slow/low vuln outside of glyph of storms. Low cc and low sustain. Normal air weavers with power druid should also have higher burst during breakbars.

Good luck relying on your pugs to open inventory and use consumables mid-fight though.

@Fubala.1534 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:

Your averages are way out of line. What you say only applies to "slightly better than average" players in gw2raidar stats. But remember, the players you see there, they are the small minority interested in raiding. They are far above the average. It's not a coincidence that when I pug with a t4+cm group and I see another weaver, he's usually pretty good. While the image of the typical pug weaver in lower tiers is that of the ground-hugging, wanna-be dps who fails all the time.

The healthy balance isn't in the tryhard region. The healthy balance is when you have meaningful "average" players have a choice. Currently both DH and Holos are in a pretty good position. They offer better reliability and maybe some utility in exchange for lower damage potential, which isn't that lower as to make them useless. This is what a good alternative looks like.

First off, you aren't. Like I said already, I see a lot of DHs and Holos in high-end groups. Sure, not in [dT] ones, but there are often pugs with these and they make pretty smooth clears, phasing the bosses when they should and so forth. Just because Weaver is optimal doesn't mean the rest are useless.

Second, both Mirage and Firebrand are leaps and bounds ahead of Weaver in terms of utility. Consider their options. Mirage can take moa for massive breakbar damage at the cost of a minor dps loss. Mirage also has ridiculous evade uptime with on-demand superspeed, which makes it way safer and more reliable. Firebrand had aegis, quickness and stability sharing (the latter, again, at a minor dps loss). Weaver has none of these, it doesn't even have the solid vuln application a Tempest had. It's by far the most limited and the most vulnerable dps build I've seen in the game, and as such it is only normal to have the highest dps potential.

Keep in mind, when talking about the absolute high-end, there will never be diversity. Speedclears will always use the single top build and there will always be a single top build. If you nerf Weaver, it will just get replaced by another build. The good solution is to have alternatives which are suboptimal, but working. Trading damage potential for either utility or reliability. Like we have DH/Holo right now. What the game needs is more builds like this, across more professions. And when speaking of fractals specifically, it means more power builds. Since the ramp-up condi change, condi isn't really an option any more.

Don't get me wrong - Weaver might be overperforming a bit at the moment. But it needs to stay at the top, with solid advantage in damage potential. This is its only feature, the only reason for this build to exist. Simply nerfing it won't change much the status quo, except maybe make DH/Holo more popular in pugs. It won't solve the problem for the condi classes though. You won't start seeing necros, thieves or revs in fractals. They need to be addressed individually, because it's their own problems that make them bad in fractals, not the comparison to weaver.

@"Feanor.2358" said:First off, you aren't. Like I said already, I see a lot of DHs and Holos in high-end groups. Sure, not in [dT] ones, but there are often pugs with these and they make pretty smooth clears, phasing the bosses when they should and so forth. Just because Weaver is optimal doesn't mean the rest are useless.

Second, both Mirage and Firebrand are leaps and bounds ahead of Weaver in terms of utility. Consider their options. Mirage can take moa for massive breakbar damage at the cost of a minor dps loss. Mirage also has ridiculous evade uptime with on-demand superspeed, which makes it way safer and more reliable. Firebrand had aegis, quickness and stability sharing (the latter, again, at a minor dps loss). Weaver has none of these, it doesn't even have the solid vuln application a Tempest had. It's by far the most limited and the most vulnerable dps build I've seen in the game, and as such it is only normal to have the highest dps potential.

Keep in mind, when talking about the absolute high-end, there will never be diversity. Speedclears will always use the single top build and there will always be a single top build. If you nerf Weaver, it will just get replaced by another build. The good solution is to have alternatives which are suboptimal, but working. Trading damage potential for either utility or reliability. Like we have DH/Holo right now. What the game needs is more builds like this, across more professions. And when speaking of fractals specifically, it means more power builds. Since the ramp-up condi change, condi isn't really an option any more.

Don't get me wrong - Weaver might be overperforming a bit at the moment. But it needs to stay at the top, with solid advantage in damage potential. This is its only feature, the only reason for this build to exist. Simply nerfing it won't change much the status quo, except maybe make DH/Holo more popular in pugs. It won't solve the problem for the condi classes though. You won't start seeing necros, thieves or revs in fractals. They need to be addressed individually, because it's their own problems that make them bad in fractals, not the comparison to weaver.

1. Everything is able to clear the content. I never claimed anything was useless, just that weaver is that much over the top that many groups don't consider these an option. I don't know where and in what timezone you are playing but I see many, many, many groups only wanting weavers. And even if everyone, which they don't, would consider Dhs and Holos equally as Weavers for their team it is still really narrow regarding diversity.
2. Fair enough your and my definition of "utility" might differ. For me personally, when I speak about utility, I speak about utility for the group. And I simply can't consider dodges as utility because weaver doesnt have to be close-melee and can sidestep almost everything. Secondly I meantioned the Aegis and yes I wasn't as thoroughly as I should have been, because yes stability is valuable too. Thirdly Weaver has CC. This argument gets thrown everywere. That Weaver has to give up so much DPS for using his cc skills which is simply not true. You can learn the fights and prepare for cc phases without loosing much dps at all (and stones exist which is beside the point) . This is again something the high end-players master. And it really is not the most limited and vulnerable dps build in the game. You are range and have the option to sidestep, power daredevil does not. In many other games melee is the most limited dps option because of dps-uptime but I would not put this as my main argument because you have to really consider the fights and many are static so it doesn't matter as much.
3. I agree there was and never will be diversity in high-end. But it would be amazing if the top build changes for the encounter and is not weaver for everything for years. Or changes each balance patch cycle (suboptimal). Because I think, the longer something stands uncontested at the top, the more established it gets in the community and therefore the more other builds get thrown out in group selection.
4. "Don't get me wrong - Weaver might be overperforming a bit at the moment." comparing it with past timespans this is the understatement of the century. I agree with the rest of the paragraph though. Weaver should be at the top because they have no group buffs, just dps. One might argue that power melee builds should be at the top because of the dps uptime but i meantioned the stationary state of the bosses before.

Again. Maybe I'm wrong. I encounter many people that think the same way you do. Therefore maybe I'm just not getting it, but I see huge flaws in the state the game is in right now.

@Fubala.1534 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:Don't get me wrong - Weaver might be overperforming a bit at the moment. But it needs to stay at the top, with solid advantage in damage potential.

4. Weaver should be at the top because they have no group buffs, just dps. One might argue that power melee builds should be at the top because of the dps uptime but i meantioned the stationary state of the bosses before.

Exactly this, why does this have to be the so called pinnacle of truth all the time?I'd even like to argue, that the Elementalist should be exactly the same damage or even a little bit less compared to its DARK magic counterpart (cause, mostly these kind of classes sacrifices more than just 'mana' ...), as is the case in many other MMO's (design point of view).OR, DoT's are in the long run, over a full raid boss fight, always (at least 10%) higher damage than any Power burst build can ever put on the table. Reason, well: because that's the very definition of the DoT vs. Burst! Sounds logical, right?Just like the argumentation that @Fubala.1534 is giving with his/her Melee vs Ranged statement.OR another one: How can a jack of all trades like the Ele be the BEST of all trades???? If you spec an Ele right, it's the best capable healer in the game, well we all know, it's the best capable damage dealer in the game, I wouldn't even be surprised if it can be the best CC (Earth and Air) in the game as well (or at least top 3). While in every logical world/game out there a jack of all trades is good (and mostly even mediocre) in ALL areas, not the very best. You could've called the class GOD and be done with it! Furthermore, Weaver screams a definition of: being capable to adjust mid fight to the elements needed: be it water for healing, be it earth for prot/AoE sustain/CC, be it air for single target DPS/CC, be it fire for AoE destruction. All outputting middle of the road numbers compared to other classes which are far more specialists in their fields, but therefore not capable to adjust on such a short notice.

There are so many logical arguments out there which completely goes against the very nature of this very long sitting meta at the moment. Imo, it's time for a change (hey: another argument ... it hasn't significantly changed for years now: at least not in the PvE endgame).

But we're talking a lot about Ele again, which imo is not even the biggest problem in PvE endgame: yes, they need nerfs, or maybe even a good look at the design of the class, but imo still not as worrying compared to the exact opposite of the very long ranged spectrum out there: the Necro! Which imo is in a terrible spot right now ... and because ANet is just not showing its face on the Necro forums at all anymore (hence, why I post it here), I can only imagine (also since they've already announced more nerfs for the Necro in WvW and PvP and keep quiet about any planned changes in PvE, or am I missing something there?) it's not going to change soon either!

"Adjustments" aren't really important. You can't adjust mid-fight, not in any meaningful way. Yes, an ele can switch to water attunement and trade all of its awesome damage output for not even mediocre healing. Great "feature". So the specialization argument doesn't hold*. Any sensible build in the game is a specialized one. Yes, eles happen to have both viable damage and viable healing spec, but so do rangers and so do reveneants. And out of the three, the ele healer is the least useful in PvE. So that's not an argument either.

Thematic arguments don't hold either - a game doesn't need to be logical, it needs to be fun. And the fun comes from choices, from tradeoffs. Having both superior damage, superior control and superior survivability isn't a tradeoff. It's simply being blatantly overpowered. That's not fun, that's boring. You want necro to be top dps? Lose the extra health, lose the shroud, lose all the group utility in form of boon corruption, barrier and whatnot. Get a pure dps glass spec and then we can talk. Otherwise all you're asking is for the necro to be straight out superior to ele for no other reason that you picked one on character creation.

• Note that you can achieve that "jack of all trades" by going cele. And then you end up exactly as equally bad at everything as you would expect. Mediocre damage, mediocre healing, mediocre survivability.

@"Feanor.2358" said:"Adjustments" aren't really important. You can't adjust mid-fight, not in any meaningful way. Yes, an ele can switch to water attunement and trade all of its awesome damage output for not even mediocre healing. Great "feature". So the specialization argument doesn't hold*. Any sensible build in the game is a specialized one. Yes, eles happen to have both viable damage and viable healing spec, but so do rangers and so do reveneants. And out of the three, the ele healer is the least useful in PvE. So that's not an argument either.

Thematic arguments don't hold either - a game doesn't need to be logical, it needs to be fun. And the fun comes from choices, from tradeoffs. Having both superior damage, superior control and superior survivability isn't a tradeoff. It's simply being blatantly overpowered. That's not fun, that's boring. You want necro to be top dps? Lose the extra health, lose the shroud, lose all the group utility in form of boon corruption, barrier and whatnot. Get a pure dps glass spec and then we can talk. Otherwise all you're asking is for the necro to be straight out superior to ele for no other reason that you picked one on character creation.

• Note that you can achieve that "jack of all trades" by going cele. And then you end up exactly as equally bad at everything as you would expect. Mediocre damage, mediocre healing, mediocre survivability.

You do realize Scourge isn't the only build Necros have, how does celestial do all that for Reaper?