Dagger Problem

I think we all agree that dagger was given to necromancer as a melee option. But aside from auto-attack all the other attacks are ranged. I will only talk about main-hand dagger because i think offhand dagger is alright (4 could use increase in projectile speed but it is not much of a problem). The problem with dagger is 2 gives healing which is a good thing but it is not enough as it does damage and healing in pulses which is generally evaded or blocked. 3 gives immob which is also great but only 3 and a 1/2 sec which is not bad generally, but it is for necro as it is the only stun in the entire class. So it means if you don't use main-hand dagger you cannot stun an enemy in any form period. Damage is god awful for the range and lack of survivability. There is no melee feel to dagger, just a gimmicky skill set.

Dagger is so bad right now that i don't think it cannot be used in any game mode except very casual pve. Even in that people don't use it because the overall lacking of blocks, invulnerability, mobility etc in this class. So i thought there is no better opportunity for dagger to redeem itself from it's current state. No condi build uses dagger as main-hand so it is also an effective way to buff power and necro core while not buffing condi scourge which many people hate. And for the love of god we could use some good animations. Not the face of devs mocking us with every shade and stupid focus 4 boomerang and almost no animation on 5.

What necro lacks as a class overall can be fulfilled with this. Some of the things we lack but is accessible to other classes are for example finishers, swiftness, any kind of blocks, reflects, teleports/dodges, etc etc. Any 1 out of all these can be given to necro to make it playable. While writing this i realized i have wasted my time and no person in authority will read it or if they would they will scoff it off. At this point most of the players play necro for flavor because there is nothing in this class otherwise.

Not to end on a depressing note i think a good decision would be to add retaliation (Already available boon to us in spite trait) available on dagger main-hand. If devs think necro as a "support class" then maybe give to team also. At least make necro be desired for its retaliation generation for the whole team to make it needed for high level end game content.

Well these are some of the things i was thinking about, please feel free to give your opinions.

Dagger mainhand would be fine if they just reduced the cast times.

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:Dagger mainhand would be fine if they just reduced the cast times.

Ah about cd, we are getting some juicy increased cd with almost nothing in return in future patch. Cheers!

There were a lot of threads a few months ago about the identity of dagger. condition having no melee weapon, power having two (with reaper included), dagger offhand being condition based while mainhand being more about power. Then they added a self condition to dagger 3 which is a corruption/condition thing, and a bonus life siphon if the target is bleeding on dagger 2 which again is more of a condition thing since the auto attack had no condition application. The whole identity of dagger has been and still remains a mess. It's almost on the same level as staff. Its a mediocre hybrid setup at best. A popular sentiment on the necromancer forum that is largely true 'necros cant have nice things'.

I run MH Dagger 99% of my solo roaming time. GS has a much lower skillcap than MH Dagger and is worse in 1v1 situations even against slow targets like Warrior.

ANet aims to reduce the Thief Dagger autoattack damage which automatically improves Necro Dagger, because D/P Thief is the class against which Necro MH Dagger sucks the most at the moment.

Dagger autoattack has limited use because of the lack of defense but there are scenarios where it is devastatingDagger 2 in melee while facing the target then run through it while channeling = ProfitDagger 3 precast while kiting -> turn around and face target at the end of the cast -> shroudburst = Profit

Warhorn 4 is great to bait Warrior autostunbreak trait (right at the beginning of the fight) or to kick Revenants or Mesmers out of their block followed by a shroudburstWarhorn 5 is good for travelling and combined with shroud improves shrouduptime in teamfights a lot (up to 7,5% LF gen per second)

All in all the Dagger/Wh utility is superior to GS in 1v1 or 2v2 fight scenarios. I'd like to have the autoattack damage buffed by about 15% but since ANet is nerfing a lot of stuff these days the weapon might shine in the future even without any damage buffs.

Dagger Offhand... is just terrible. At platinum skill level you could simply run without any offhand - it would be the same in terms of usability. Slow, clunky and unreliable.

Edit: I should add that I run Spite/Curses/Reaper, so there is always a bleed on my target. I get the 20% damage and healing buff of Dagger 2 for free at any time. This is noticable. In addition Curses adds a lot of Weakness uptime which improves melee survivability a lot - this is also important for MH Dagger usage.

@KrHome.1920 said:I run MH Dagger 99% of my solo roaming time. GS has a much lower skillcap than MH Dagger and is worse in 1v1 situations even against slow targets like Warrior.

ANet aims to reduce the Thief Dagger autoattack damage which automatically improves Necro Dagger, because D/P Thief is the class against which Necro MH Dagger sucks the most at the moment.

Dagger autoattack has limited use because of the lack of defense but there are scenarios where it is devastatingDagger 2 in melee while facing the target then run through it while channeling = ProfitDagger 3 precast while kiting -> turn around and face target at the end of the cast -> shroudburst = Profit

Warhorn 4 is great to bait Warrior autostunbreak trait (right at the beginning of the fight) or to kick Revenants or Mesmers out of their block followed by a shroudburstWarhorn 5 is good for travelling and combined with shroud improves shrouduptime in teamfights a lot (up to 7,5% LF gen per second)

All in all the Dagger/Wh utility is superior to GS in 1v1 or 2v2 fight scenarios. I'd like to have the autoattack damage buffed by about 15% but since ANet is nerfing a lot of stuff these days the weapon might shine in the future even without any damage buffs.

Dagger Offhand... is just terrible. At platinum skill level you could simply run without any offhand - it would be the same in terms of usability. Slow, clunky and unreliable.

Edit: I should add that I run Spite/Curses/Reaper, so there is always a bleed on my target. I get the 20% damage and healing buff of Dagger 2 for free at any time. This is noticable. In addition Curses adds a lot of Weakness uptime which improves melee survivability a lot - this is also important for MH Dagger usage.

Okay, so I personally believe GS serves a better 1v1 role due to passive reward OOPS. INCOMING NERF.

Greatsword is better only because of its ramped up LF gain and almost instant-cast pull. Nightfall is cool, but only if you manage to trap someone in it.

I can say Dagger is a harder version of GS and offers immobilize instead of pull and a life steal instead of life regeneration.

Now, I'm not saying Dagger is flawless but I don't think it needs many changes as it can deal some gnarly damage when you manage to trap someone in wells or a mass of AoEs. Oh wait, you can do that with GS too. Eh.

@Khailyn.6248 said:There were a lot of threads a few months ago about the identity of dagger. condition having no melee weapon, power having two (with reaper included), dagger offhand being condition based while mainhand being more about power. Then they added a self condition to dagger 3 which is a corruption/condition thing, and a bonus life siphon if the target is bleeding on dagger 2 which again is more of a condition thing since the auto attack had no condition application. The whole identity of dagger has been and still remains a mess. It's almost on the same level as staff. Its a mediocre hybrid setup at best. A popular sentiment on the necromancer forum that is largely true 'necros cant have nice things'.

I never get this complaint; the identify of necro dagger is about draining life from an opponent; if that's not THE most clearly aligned weapon that a necro has thematically, I don't know what is. Some of the mechanics are a little off, but no one should question what its identity is.

There isn't all that much to complain about; for a weapon that has 3 skills on it, it can only do so much to begin with. #1 is fantastic, 2 works well enough in PVE. I can only think that the risk of self bleed is not worth the reward of immobilize on #3. It has limited use in PVE.

In direct response to the OP, #2 doesn't heal enough, but it's not technically a heal, it's a life drain, so it's never going to do as much as a heal equivalent would because of it's additional damage application. Dagger is not the terrible weapon people want to make it out to be.

I tried dagger recently with a Power/Core build and it was not bad. It actually works really well if you consider it as a companion to Life Blast.

I do wish it got better synergy with Vampiric Presence, The ICD hurt dagger quite a bit. If only axe had an AOE, or if focus 4 didn't bounce, it'd be a strong setup.

The biggest issue on necromancer, 2 channeling attacks on 2 different weapons, which is way too easy to interrupt.If you use dagger 2 or even axe 2 (even though it does good dmg) you say to all these other classes, that have way more stun or daze options than necro: here fk me, i want to be killed.And since necro doesnt have good stun options himself, the cast gets interruoted most of the times.So maybe there could be a rework, so dagger 2 just puts a unique debuff on the opponent, that leeches some life and deals dmg.I see this would be not that much dmg, as it does right now, but tbh. The dmg from this skill isnt even worth mentioning.

And for the dagger3. Well most of the classes have way too much access to condicleanses. It would be really nice, if that skill would put two stacks of immob for only 1 and a half second on the enemy. So its a slight nerf in terms of duration, but over all it should be a buff, because the second immob would trigger right after the first one, so enemys need at least two condicleanses.(It would work like a weaker version of entangle)Thematically, there could be a dark hand grabbing the opponent to root him. Dont make this skill a ae skill. Still target based.

Just making lower cooldowns, like its planned for wvw/pvp wont help this weapon to be taken.

Dagger 2 is so slow, and has miniscule range, so against other players you're just asking to get interrupted.

I'd adjust the dagger trait to grant stability to Dagger 3 (if it hits), granting 1 stack for 3 seconds, +1 stack per boon corrupted. Then remove the bleeding bonuses from dagger 2, but make it so it applies 1 stack of Bleed per pulse if the target is already bleeding (can't siphon easily if they aren't bleeding already).

@KrHome.1920 said:I run MH Dagger 99% of my solo roaming time. GS has a much lower skillcap than MH Dagger and is worse in 1v1 situations

So utilizing quick autos with a 3s channeling skill and a 25s cd immo requires more skill than gs .... w a t

I dont think dagger is that bad but its not that good either. I feel like axe has gotten enough mechanics added to it that it makes it better than dagger in most situations or if you run condi there is no reason to run dagger because you have to run scepter.

I feel like if the made a bit more play on how dagger works when you are bleeding vs a foe bleeding on all the skills it would be :+1: Hitting a bleeding foe with the auto does a minor leech adding a small amount of damage to the auto hitting a foe when you are bleeding do something else on auto idk what it would be though.Dagger 2 is fine although I would like to be able to start the cast without having to face the target funny how they have this skill attempt to face the target first but not other skills where it really matters that you attempt to face the target first. .Dagger 3 is fine although for the self bleeding maybe a stronger immobe. or dont even apply a self bleed if you are over a bleeding threshold.

Even with changes though i think most will still prefer secpter, GS, axe based on what they were running .

Someone suggested that the dagger trait Quickening Thirst should allow Life Siphon to share the healing with up to 5 nearby allies. I'd be on board for it.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Khailyn.6248 said:There were a lot of threads a few months ago about the identity of dagger. condition having no melee weapon, power having two (with reaper included), dagger offhand being condition based while mainhand being more about power. Then they added a self condition to dagger 3 which is a corruption/condition thing, and a bonus life siphon if the target is bleeding on dagger 2 which again is more of a condition thing since the auto attack had no condition application. The whole identity of dagger has been and still remains a mess. It's almost on the same level as staff. Its a mediocre hybrid setup at best. A popular sentiment on the necromancer forum that is largely true 'necros cant have nice things'.

You think dagger damage and skill set is good given the lack of survivability in class? I am not looking at the dagger skills only but the complete thing.

@XECOR.2814 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Khailyn.6248 said:There were a lot of threads a few months ago about the identity of dagger. condition having no melee weapon, power having two (with reaper included), dagger offhand being condition based while mainhand being more about power. Then they added a self condition to dagger 3 which is a corruption/condition thing, and a bonus life siphon if the target is bleeding on dagger 2 which again is more of a condition thing since the auto attack had no condition application. The whole identity of dagger has been and still remains a mess. It's almost on the same level as staff. Its a mediocre hybrid setup at best. A popular sentiment on the necromancer forum that is largely true 'necros cant have nice things'.

Depends what you define as 'good'. If you're going to come back at me with 'it's not meta', don't bother. Considering the dagger combines a reasonable damage output with a massive LF regen and health siphon ... I can't really see how its skill set doesn't address a class that has 'not good' damage or 'lacking' survival.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@XECOR.2814 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Khailyn.6248 said:There were a lot of threads a few months ago about the identity of dagger. condition having no melee weapon, power having two (with reaper included), dagger offhand being condition based while mainhand being more about power. Then they added a self condition to dagger 3 which is a corruption/condition thing, and a bonus life siphon if the target is bleeding on dagger 2 which again is more of a condition thing since the auto attack had no condition application. The whole identity of dagger has been and still remains a mess. It's almost on the same level as staff. Its a mediocre hybrid setup at best. A popular sentiment on the necromancer forum that is largely true 'necros cant have nice things'.

I dont use the word meta and all that bullshit. What i meant is if you run a dagger against other classes and elites do you think it performs well given the survivability of this class. Because if you do i think there is something wrong with you. The highest skilled dagger player can barely play against some of the casual players of average classes.

I don't get your question 'runs against' other classes. What you say is true for ANY class; all classes have weapons where the highest skilled player may not achieve the same results as other more average players on other classes. That doesn't seem to me to be a relevant comparison in the current state of the game. That's a consequence of how the game is designed; if you are suggesting dagger should be changed because of the results of intended game designs, you should check your barometer.

Dagger, as a necro weapon, is about as close to a sustaining weapon as you can get, along with it's damage, I don't see it getting much better than it is. Improvements will more likely be thematic ... like #3 for some reason, corrupting you with bleed seems like it shouldn't do that. Personally, I don't have a 'survival' problem on necro, ESPECIALLY when I run dagger, so I really can't see an argument for changing it because of lacking survival in the first place. I mean ... if dagger is so bad for you, why are you playing it? There is a reason we have choice of weapons; not every weapon is going to be good in every situation; again, it's easy to speculate that's by design. There is no point in giving choice if the choice is in name only.

Then again, maybe I got dagger theme incorrect ... it couldbe more about corruption than sustain ... so maybe 1 and 2 should get more corrupting flavour.

Do you by any chance not play anything other than pve? And you are not necro main for sure even if you play other game modes. The evidence is the overall win and lose rate which you would experience if you would have played other game mode where you have to face other classes apparently hence the comparison is necessary. I dont understand how you don't get that even a highly skilled player cannot win with a necro dagger build against a player on lower end of skill level in another average class. Player chooses weapons because it works with their other choices to yield a result which further pushes their probability of winning. But what happens when the result is not favorable ? They discard it just like how it is discarded by the whole necromancer players. Balancing a game is literally just making sure everyone has choices they can opt to compete with other classes. But i can name multiple classes which under no circumstance and build and skill level you will be able to beat if the other player is on the same level as you.

I don't get your comparison here. If dagger is bad for you in PVP, don't use it. If NECRO is bad for you in PVP, don't use it. Not every choice in this game is going to yield desired results, dependent on the play mode. That's not a reason to change it because there are choices available to choose things that DO provide reasonable results for the play mode. If you think there is some justification because of 'not competitive' in PVP, etc... then you haven't taken into account that most of the result of PVP is dependent on the player. In otherwords, you can't make those statements because you don't know your opponents skill level when you experience PVP.

Let's take another angle here; let's assume you are 100% correct. What makes you think that any of the problems you listed can be addressed in a bandwidth of 3 skills on one weapon without significantly changing it's theme or making it OP'ed? I don't see it happening. You are listing CLASS problems and you think that's going to be fixed with adjusting one weapon ... that makes little sense to me. Problems should be addressed at the level where they occur. Low survival isn't due to dagger skills, nor is low damage.

Dagger is not far off from being a really good weapon; if it's still lacking in some play mode, that's not because it's a bad weapon ... it's because there are other more fundamental issues with the class OR that dagger supports a strategy that isn't winning in that game mode in the first place.

You again did't understood my friend, i think i will give it 1 last shot. Dagger is not only bad for me but for everyone. So you want people to change necromancer class if they cant play it. This statement says that "it just isn't working for you so you can change it but there maybe other players who win against said opponents with the same class". And here i'm trying to tell you that no one can win with this weapon against multiple other classes in any circumstance. And you are basically telling the game to be not balanced and play whatever makes you win. If that is the case then there is no need for balance and patches just let it play however it was before and there is no need for tweaks. People will change classes to ones that yield win and finally there will be 3 specs left in total that kill each other in a ring and that would be the gameplay of gw2. When you introduce a weapon in a game then you should at least make it usable and since i think dagger is just as bad as necro class in general then maybe it could be tweaked so that it uplifts necromancer to other classes level and gives necro another build that was supposed to be an option but just isn't because of how bad it is and believe me we can use some more builds other than 1 and only condi scourge. BTW you can tell you opponents level if you have experience and not to mention if you are in a guild or have real life friends playing with you.

Sure .. let's assume it is bad for everyone in PVP ... that doesn't mean you can conclude that the problem is with the dagger. Not every choice is intended to be 'good' in every play mode. That's not a reason to change it. It IS a reason to make better choices more aligned to winning strategies.

Then again, it might just be a weapon that needs a higher skilled player to win with as well ...

If you want to look at dagger 'problems', it makes no sense to isolate it to a specific game mode, complain about how bad necro's performance in that game mode is with that weapon, conclude it's a weapon problem and 'solve' the dagger problems based on necro's performance in that game mode ... like WHAT? The solution to bad performance in PVP with dagger necro already exists ... don't use it. If EVERY other weapon outperforms dagger in PVP, then WTH would you choose to use it in the first place?

First of all let me make this clear for you before talking about anything else. Necromancer class is not "good" in any mode of the game all classes have better options and builds that can perform better that what we are doing. Then, all of the weapons are not good in most of the game modes. They are ok, above and below average but not good. I dont have any problem with other weapons because i just accepted it as what they are. But the dagger especially is so bad that if they removed it, no one will get hurt except for very very small amount of casual players which is the case for every weapon no matter how bad it is. When there is nothing going on for you and you are told it doesnt matter if your weapon is not good in certain situation when all the other weapons are also no that good+ the elite gets nerfed while not being the "meta" as people call it. Overall you think not having choices for a class while other classes wreck havoc in all game modes like warrior is alright and acceptable. Obviously we cant ask for warriors and other classes nerfs because their mains will neevr let it happen so we can only ask for our weapons to be buffed a little.

@Obtena.7952 said:Sure .. it's bad for everyone in PVP ... that doesn't mean you can conclude that the problem is with the dagger. Not every choice is intended to be 'good' in every play mode. That's not a reason to change it. It IS a reason to make better choices more aligned to winning strategies.

Then again, it might just be a weapon that needs a higher skilled player to win with as well ...

if you want to look at dagger 'problems', it makes no sense to isolate it to a specific game mode, complain about how bad necro's performance in that game mode is with that weapon and conclude it's a weapon problem and 'solve' the dagger problems based on necro's performance in that game mode ... like WHAT? The solution to bad performance in PVP with dagger necro already exists ... don't use it. If EVERY other weapon outperforms dagger in PVP, then WTH would you choose to use it in the first place?

Lol you think i dont have a brain. Obviously i dont use dagger in pvp but the whole necro class under performs in every game mode and i thought why not use dagger to buff the class as it is one of the worst weapon choices and while buffing it would not buff condi spam scourge build which people hate so it will be a win-win. I thought it was a clever way to address power while not buffing condi but i think you are too casual and fluid with your choices for me. Sorry but i can't agree with your opinions.

I'm pretty sure I have brain ... dagger is NOT underperforming in PVE, that's for sure. That's just meta-think and shows a significant lack of awareness for how to use dagger in an optimal way for PVE.

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm pretty sure I have brain ... dagger is NOT underperforming in PVE, that's for sure. That's just meta-think.

1. I never said you didn't have a brain.
2. Everything works in story and open world. I'm talking about fractals and raids. It is written in original post high level end game content.