Legendary weapons lore - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Legendary weapons lore

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  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Weapon name is Claw of Khan Ur, it's in game, it's canon. Unfortunately, it's not explained.

  • Zalani.9827Zalani.9827 Member ✭✭✭

    I like to imagine that Kudzu was created the same way Caladbolg was, either by a champion of the pale tree or some other druids.

    Jadis Narnia, Sylvari Ranger of [EDGE]

    Praise Joko!

  • Sojourner.4621Sojourner.4621 Member ✭✭✭

    The weapon is in a glass case in Smodurs office, in game, which means it's canon. That means that they contradict each other. They can't both be canon/true. And you can't say "well instances are time locked" because they literally just added that glass case yesterday.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Claw of Khan Ur being legendary weapon delivered in the current system is slap in the face to every lore freak. I'm out.

    Iirc the legendaries u get from zommoros' are copies of the originals.

    The display of multiple legendaries in his lair and also a boss in arah having twilight further supports that theory.

    Copies of what exactly. Because only few legendaries have any lore tied to them. Also... every player in GW2 is same person in lore - the Commander.

    Copies of the original weapons supposedly.

    Charr wouldn't allow anyone to copy their "sacred" weapon.

    implying a djiin or w/e would care about that.

    Djinni would need to aquire original co make a copy in first place.

    All zommoros needed to do is to take a good look at it and then design it as closely as possible.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Claw of Khan Ur being legendary weapon delivered in the current system is slap in the face to every lore freak. I'm out.

    Iirc the legendaries u get from zommoros' are copies of the originals.

    The display of multiple legendaries in his lair and also a boss in arah having twilight further supports that theory.

    Copies of what exactly. Because only few legendaries have any lore tied to them. Also... every player in GW2 is same person in lore - the Commander.

    Copies of the original weapons supposedly.

    Charr wouldn't allow anyone to copy their "sacred" weapon.

    implying a djiin or w/e would care about that.

    Djinni would need to aquire original co make a copy in first place.

    All zommoros needed to do is to take a good look at it and then design it as closely as possible.

    So when was Zomorros invited by Smodur to take a look at the claw? We never saw it until now.

  • Lord Trejgon.2809Lord Trejgon.2809 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2018

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Palador.2170 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    That's cool. Anet definitely achieved weakening it as a symbol yesterday. If anything like this happened in game, to explain stuff you know, because random wiki speculations are not part of gw2 lore.

    I'm pretty sure it has more backing in lore than your personal speculations about what the charr would or would not do with the thing.

    If you're upset, fine. Be upset. That doesn't mean ANet screwed up.

    So what lore was presented to justify the Claw (or replica) being now in hands of the commander?

    What events in game explain that Smodur wants to lower the significance of the Claw and what actions did he took to proceed with his plan?

    what lore present to justify it?

    very simple: Mystic Forge lore.
    Commander have replicated precuror weapon and gave it with some other stuff to zommoros and zomoros gave him in return exact replica of the claw.

    this is it, no need for more because mystic forge and zommoros ARE present in lore and are source of all legendary weapons

    EDIT: and on what base you assume zomorros would need to physically see the weapon himself considerign how he is giving them away for quite a time via some magical portal despite himself being half the continent away?

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Palador.2170 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    That's cool. Anet definitely achieved weakening it as a symbol yesterday. If anything like this happened in game, to explain stuff you know, because random wiki speculations are not part of gw2 lore.

    I'm pretty sure it has more backing in lore than your personal speculations about what the charr would or would not do with the thing.

    If you're upset, fine. Be upset. That doesn't mean ANet screwed up.

    So what lore was presented to justify the Claw (or replica) being now in hands of the commander?

    What events in game explain that Smodur wants to lower the significance of the Claw and what actions did he took to proceed with his plan?

    what lore present to justify it?

    very simple: Mystic Forge lore.
    Commander have replicated precuror weapon and gave it with some other stuff to zommoros and zomoros gave him in return exact replica of the claw.

    this is it, no need for more because mystic forge and zommoros ARE present in lore and are source of all legendary weapons

    EDIT: and on what base you assume zomorros would need to physically see the weapon himself considerign how he is giving them away for quite a time via some magical portal despite himself being half the continent away?

    It all sounds like an easy way to justify anything and any time while disrespecting their own universe in the process. In any other game I would have epic quest leading to the boss from which I would loot this legendary weapon. In GW2 all I need to do is pay.

  • Felipe.1807Felipe.1807 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Weapon name is Claw of Khan Ur, it's in game, it's canon. Unfortunately, it's not explained.

    Dont expect Anet to folow its own lore and try to create a immersive experience for the player...lore wise the Claw is with the Imperator on the Black Citadel, Smoldur or whatever is his name, that is the canon...the commander aint supposed to have the Claw or the Shining Blade, this is just for gameplay only.
    I agree, allow the player to craft it on the day its released(if you have a lot of gold) takes out any kind of prestige of these weapons, theres nothing "legendary" about the way you obtain these weapons. You should have to go on a quest, a extremely hard and solo only, should be a test of skill and mastery on the game mechanics and not how well you play the TP or farm Instan 24/7.

  • @Sojourner.4621 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Sojourner.4621 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Sojourner.4621 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Sojourner.4621 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Sojourner.4621 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Even gemstore has lore, so your argument doesn't work.

    Yeah it does. Game mechanics /= lore. Proof: Horses appear nowhere in the game models, but they are frequently mentioned in the lore tie in novel, in the lore of the game itself, and by NPCs in the game, which means horses exist. That is a game mechanic, the model never having been created, not equaling the lore that explicitly tells us they exist. This is a model for players to carry around and show off, which does NOT mean that the commander actually has, or has a replica of, the actual weapon itself which lore EXPLICITLY states is in the possession of Smodur. That is a game mechanic, and is not lore, because the actual lore says otherwise. Every player can't LITERALLY be the pact commander... lore establishes there is only one... again, an example of game mechanics /= lore.

    No, it's not the same. Explained in previous posts. Feel free to read.

    You "explained" in previous posts, but you are wrong. Game mechanics does not equal lore, period.

    Game mechanics are part of the lore, they are made to present the lore, execute the lore or even create the lore.

    They are only lore if they are stated as being lore. Some mechanics are, such as waypoints and asura gates, but others are not such as there being literally thousands of "commanders" despite there being only one. Is there, at any point, literally ANY place in the game where it states that this is the actual Claw of the Khan-Ur? There is not. That means it isn't lore.

    In lore every player character is the same person.

    Yes, that is EXACTLY what I just said. The lore is, by necessity, that the commander is a single person. However, the story that everyone plays through makes THEM the commander, which means by GAME MECHANICS, everyone is the commander. That means that the game mechanics by necessity contradict the lore. You can't have it both ways.

    Thing is, lore never explaines how the Commander received Claw. I'm not mad because this weapon became legendary, I'm pissed off because of aquisition method which is an insult to any lore enthusiast.

    At this point you are deliberately being obtuse. The fact is it cannot be lore unless it is stated. You can have your own lore in your head, but that doesn't matter, because it's the dev's that matter. They make the lore, not you. There is no lore that states that the legendaries are even replicas, or that they exist at all. There is no lore that suggests it is actually possible to tame a branded raptor and ride it as a mount. There IS lore that states that the Claw is owned by Smodur, and that he has it in his office. In fact you can go there right now and see it in a glass display case.

    That must be new. I don't remember seeing that at all before. And I map completed 9 times. Bravo a net for adding that the little morsel.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Claw of Khan Ur being legendary weapon delivered in the current system is slap in the face to every lore freak. I'm out.

    Iirc the legendaries u get from zommoros' are copies of the originals.

    The display of multiple legendaries in his lair and also a boss in arah having twilight further supports that theory.

    Copies of what exactly. Because only few legendaries have any lore tied to them. Also... every player in GW2 is same person in lore - the Commander.

    Copies of the original weapons supposedly.

    Charr wouldn't allow anyone to copy their "sacred" weapon.

    implying a djiin or w/e would care about that.

    Djinni would need to aquire original co make a copy in first place.

    All zommoros needed to do is to take a good look at it and then design it as closely as possible.

    So when was Zomorros invited by Smodur to take a look at the claw? We never saw it until now.

    he could have taken a look at it while the humans were attempting to retrieve it for the piece treaty

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Claw of Khan Ur being legendary weapon delivered in the current system is slap in the face to every lore freak. I'm out.

    Iirc the legendaries u get from zommoros' are copies of the originals.

    The display of multiple legendaries in his lair and also a boss in arah having twilight further supports that theory.

    Copies of what exactly. Because only few legendaries have any lore tied to them. Also... every player in GW2 is same person in lore - the Commander.

    Copies of the original weapons supposedly.

    Charr wouldn't allow anyone to copy their "sacred" weapon.

    implying a djiin or w/e would care about that.

    Djinni would need to aquire original co make a copy in first place.

    All zommoros needed to do is to take a good look at it and then design it as closely as possible.

    So when was Zomorros invited by Smodur to take a look at the claw? We never saw it until now.

    he could have taken a look at it while the humans were attempting to retrieve it for the piece treaty

    Dougal Keane drew a picture of it which fell out his pocket near Miyani

    Nailed it!

  • Umut.5471Umut.5471 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2018

    More than half of the legendaries have no lore. What's the lore of Eternity for example? I've only seen risen high wizard wielding it, there's no other context.

  • Pifil.5193Pifil.5193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Claw of Khan Ur being legendary weapon delivered in the current system is slap in the face to every lore freak. I'm out.

    Iirc the legendaries u get from zommoros' are copies of the originals.

    The display of multiple legendaries in his lair and also a boss in arah having twilight further supports that theory.

    Copies of what exactly. Because only few legendaries have any lore tied to them. Also... every player in GW2 is same person in lore - the Commander.

    Copies of the original weapons supposedly.

    Charr wouldn't allow anyone to copy their "sacred" weapon.

    implying a djiin or w/e would care about that.

    Djinni would need to aquire original co make a copy in first place.

    All zommoros needed to do is to take a good look at it and then design it as closely as possible.

    So when was Zomorros invited by Smodur to take a look at the claw? We never saw it until now.

    he could have taken a look at it while the humans were attempting to retrieve it for the piece treaty

    Maybe he looked it up on the wiki?

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Claw of Khan Ur being legendary weapon delivered in the current system is slap in the face to every lore freak. I'm out.

    Iirc the legendaries u get from zommoros' are copies of the originals.

    The display of multiple legendaries in his lair and also a boss in arah having twilight further supports that theory.

    Copies of what exactly. Because only few legendaries have any lore tied to them. Also... every player in GW2 is same person in lore - the Commander.

    Copies of the original weapons supposedly.

    Charr wouldn't allow anyone to copy their "sacred" weapon.

    implying a djiin or w/e would care about that.

    Djinni would need to aquire original co make a copy in first place.

    All zommoros needed to do is to take a good look at it and then design it as closely as possible.

    So when was Zomorros invited by Smodur to take a look at the claw? We never saw it until now.

    he could have taken a look at it while the humans were attempting to retrieve it for the piece treaty

    Maybe he looked it up on the wiki?

    Most likely.

  • Lord Trejgon.2809Lord Trejgon.2809 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Palador.2170 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    That's cool. Anet definitely achieved weakening it as a symbol yesterday. If anything like this happened in game, to explain stuff you know, because random wiki speculations are not part of gw2 lore.

    I'm pretty sure it has more backing in lore than your personal speculations about what the charr would or would not do with the thing.

    If you're upset, fine. Be upset. That doesn't mean ANet screwed up.

    So what lore was presented to justify the Claw (or replica) being now in hands of the commander?

    What events in game explain that Smodur wants to lower the significance of the Claw and what actions did he took to proceed with his plan?

    what lore present to justify it?

    very simple: Mystic Forge lore.
    Commander have replicated precuror weapon and gave it with some other stuff to zommoros and zomoros gave him in return exact replica of the claw.

    this is it, no need for more because mystic forge and zommoros ARE present in lore and are source of all legendary weapons

    EDIT: and on what base you assume zomorros would need to physically see the weapon himself considerign how he is giving them away for quite a time via some magical portal despite himself being half the continent away?

    It all sounds like an easy way to justify anything and any time while disrespecting their own universe in the process. In any other game I would have epic quest leading to the boss from which I would loot this legendary weapon. In GW2 all I need to do is pay.

    there is no "discrespect to their own universe in the process" included tho.
    zommoros is a well established in-lore entity known for ability to create and alter weaponry.

    and your "epic" quest in most other games I have seen even remotely works for single players- in all and any MMO's anyway of obtaining "highest grade" gear is actually much more of a farse.

    and btw while I'd need to recheck recipies to be sure not all you do if memory serves is to "pay" - last time I checked world exploration and differend game modes were also a big chunk of requirements for a craft - sure you could run the exploration and arm those other modes before the new legendary dropped....

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2018

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    So how the Commander aquired the Claw?

    The Commander made a horrible replica, and threw 1000 gold down the mystic toilet for Zommoros to clean it up.

  • Plautze.6290Plautze.6290 Member ✭✭✭

    @Westenev.5289 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    So how the Commander aquired the Claw?

    The Commander made a horrible replica, and threw 1000 gold down the mystic toilet for Zommoros to clean it up.

    Hm, that summarizes the epic journey to create a legendary quite precisely.

    Rohan Blackraven | Allister Mortis | Kareem Aqbar | Mindblower Torxx

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2018

    Reading your comments I'm not surprised GW2 storytelling is inferior to GW1. Playerbase is interested only in shinies and farms. I think it's time to remove RPG from MMO part of GW2 genre.

    Just a reminder, devs believe that /gg in fractals breaks immersion but giving one of most important artifacts within a game as craftable legendary with 0 context or reason is okay. Caladbolg received more dignity than the Claw and it's pathetic.

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Reading your comments I'm not surprised GW2 storytelling is inferior to GW1. Playerbase is interested only in shinies and farms. I think it's time to remove RPG from MMO part of GW2 genre.

    Just a reminder, devs believe that /gg in fractals breaks immersion but giving one of most important artifacts within a game as craftable legendary with 0 context or reason is okay. Caladbolg received more dignity than the Claw and it's pathetic.

    ... You're missing the point people are trying to make. Precursers are craftable. Legendaries AREN'T craftable. We obtain them by trading our souls with a Djinn.

    There is no lore break. Nothing immersion breaking. Just a Djinn who really likes to collect, create and give away nice things.

  • Harper.4173Harper.4173 Member ✭✭✭

    Lore?
    The game's been ruining lore for a long time now - I'm surprised people are still caught off-guard.
    Legendary weapons have no lore - they're just things. Things that are given a "lore-related name" in order to squeeze some nostalgia out of some players. When things are made now in GW2 ( as well as many other games) they're made to tick a box and make some money. Nobody actually cares about the "lore" or "story" behind what they're doing. Continuity, sense - these things are irrelevant.

    Most items in game now have no lore, history or integrate in any decent way with the main story/setting of the game. Items just pop up. Just look at all the gemstore stuff.

  • Harper.4173Harper.4173 Member ✭✭✭

    @Umut.5471 said:
    More than half of the legendaries have no lore. What's the lore of Eternity for example? I've only seen risen high wizard wielding it, there's no other context.

    That's precisely the issue. Nobody cares - especially not the developers and certainly not the players. If they did care this kind of thing wouldn't fly. The fact that they're treating MOST in game items like this clearly shows that it's working well and they can easily get away with putting in as little effort as possible.

  • Haleydawn.3764Haleydawn.3764 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Just a reminder, devs believe that /gg in fractals breaks immersion

    I'd LOVE to see this quote.
    I read the /gg thread, and no where does a Dev mention immersion, or the breaking of.

    The above was written as part of an attempt to waste time.

  • ProtoGunner.4953ProtoGunner.4953 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They simply haven't fleshed out lore for legendaries. We are left with some good but only a few lore-heavy leges (first four 2nd gen leges from HoT). That's it. Also they miss out a lot of flavour like when I go to the Astralarium with my Astralaria. Nothing special happens. That would've been some nice things you could've done.

    It certainly isn't anet's strength.

  • Raven.1524Raven.1524 Member ✭✭✭

    I feel like the comment section deviated the subject to something else, lol.

  • Trise.2865Trise.2865 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2018

    "The" Claw of the Khan-Ur is still in Smodur's office, exactly where it should be. What you/we have is "a" Claw of the Khan-Ur. It's the same for every sword-wielding Final Fantasy character getting an Excalibur or a Masamune, or everyone in Soul Caliber wielding a Soul Edge. These are "based on the true story" versions of legendary weapons: most of its power (maybe with new powers), and none of its significance. (How did The Commander/Zommoros get the Claw of the Khan-Ur? they heard the legends and made the legend manifest. Crafting 101: find something cool and replicate it as your vision.)

    That said, we already have the story, in great detail, behind the Claw of the Khan-Ur. The same goes for Eternity, Chupa and Champawat, and HOPE, to some degree. I, and the OP, are more interested in the stories behind, let's say, Twilight, or The Moot, or Incinerator, or Raven Staff, etc., etc.. We know how these weapons were developed, based on the precursor missions, but not what inspired them. What were these weapons? what significance do/did they have? What are the legends behind the Legendary weapons? What sort of hero (or villain) wielded The Dreamer? or Quip? or Kamohoali'i Kotaki? Where did they come from? How were they lost, if at all? Where are the originals now? Etc., etc.

    Let's write lore ourselves.

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2018

    Remember that we do not really craft Legendary weapons. They are given to the commander by Zommoros after he is bribed with stuff.

    Being a djinn, he is not bound to the physical plane.

    That means that his stuff isn't just what we find in his vault. He could be taking it from other worlds. Djinn do not need to breathe. Dragons destroy some version of Tyria, he sneaks there, takes the stuff from the debris of the planet, and boom. You've got two claws of the Khan-Ur.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2018

    based on the text of the collections of the precursors, when crafting, we are actually creating a kind of replica when making legendaries. collecting a list of special materials to forge a weapon. So it's not a unique/original weapon given to us or obtained by us, it's a weapon that we made from scratch.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precursor_weapon

    In the real world, special weapon replicas is commonplace. and they are treated as the originals since the same materials and process are used in forging, the Sword of Stalingrad is one of theses. The "original" was the one given to Stalin itself, the same craftsman, made 3 replicas thats where exibited in museuns.

    Wilkinson Sword made three other swords at or shortly thereafter and their current disposition is as follows:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_of_Stalingrad

    Tannhauser Engineer(SoS) | Atlantean Sword | Khel the Undead

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2018

    I just want to note that the whole "legendary weapons are just replicas" is never actually stated in lore - but at the same time, the Commander wielding all these things is never brought up in lore either, it's merely glossed over. That said, we do see at least one version of the Gen1 legendaries in Zomorros' lair in Vabbi, and the replica argument was used before. It would also make the most sense.

    I don't think that the charr would really care if the symbol that reflected the united race of the charr got replicas. In the same way people do not get upset over replicas of Jesus' cross.

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Game mechanics are part of the lore, they are made to present the lore, execute the lore or even create the lore.

    Gonna disagree there.

    While there is a degree in which ArenaNet ensures that mechanics match and fit within lore, there is of course an unstated lien where mechanics and lore are two very, very distinct features.

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    So when was Zomorros invited by Smodur to take a look at the claw? We never saw it until now.

    We didn't, but it's not like it hasn't existed for ages. In lore, it's been in the Black Citadel to 7 years now.

    And Zomorros doesn't need to see the actual thing - a proper enough description would be sufficient.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I just want to note that the whole "legendary weapons are just replicas" is never actually stated in lore - but at the same time, the Commander wielding all these things is never brought up in lore either, it's merely glossed over. That said, we do see at least one version of the Gen1 legendaries in Zomorros' lair in Vabbi, and the replica argument was used before. It would also make the most sense.

    I don't think that the charr would really care if the symbol that reflected the united race of the charr got replicas. In the same way people do not get upset over replicas of Jesus' cross.

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Game mechanics are part of the lore, they are made to present the lore, execute the lore or even create the lore.

    Gonna disagree there.

    While there is a degree in which ArenaNet ensures that mechanics match and fit within lore, there is of course an unstated lien where mechanics and lore are two very, very distinct features.

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    So when was Zomorros invited by Smodur to take a look at the claw? We never saw it until now.

    We didn't, but it's not like it hasn't existed for ages. In lore, it's been in the Black Citadel to 7 years now.

    And Zomorros doesn't need to see the actual thing - a proper enough description would be sufficient.

    Hey, no problem boys. Scepter of Orr as BLC skin will be another nail to GW2's lore grave :)

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2018

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Hey, no problem boys. Scepter of Orr as BLC skin will be another nail to GW2's lore grave :)

    Let's go on the assumption they do that. They do have a tendency to give all skins possible to players, after all. Why would it be the actual Scepter of Orr?

    And why is this not an issue to you?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Replica_Mirror_of_Lyssa

    You're complaining about copies of something, rather than the actual something. It's not like there's a thousand Claws of the Khan-Ur going around, or thousands of Caladbolg. In lore, there is one of each - Smodur has the former, the Commander has the latter. All the rest is just replicas or literally non-existent in lore. Because mechanics != lore.

    If your argument is that it devalues the feeling of lore-based weapons of legend, then I would fully agree. It rather does, when we get Caladbolg, The Shining Blade, and Claw of the Khan-Ur. But it's not lore breaking at all to argue there is 1 true weapon, and a few mockeries.

    Go into the world of art, and you will find that there are forgeries left and right. And some of them are pretty authentic looking. This not only goes to paintings, but can even go towards forged arms and armor. This would be no different a situation.

    If we have these things happening illegally on Earth, why couldn't they happen (be it legally or illegally) on Tyria?

    It would, in fact, be more unrealistic to say it doesn't happen than to say it does!

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Hey, no problem boys. Scepter of Orr as BLC skin will be another nail to GW2's lore grave :)

    Let's go on the assumption they do that. They do have a tendency to give all skins possible to players, after all. Why would it be the actual Scepter of Orr?

    And why is this not an issue to you?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Replica_Mirror_of_Lyssa

    You're complaining about copies of something, rather than the actual something. It's not like there's a thousand Claws of the Khan-Ur going around, or thousands of Caladbolg. In lore, there is one of each - Smodur has the former, the Commander has the latter. All the rest is just replicas or literally non-existent in lore. Because mechanics != lore.

    If your argument is that it devalues the feeling of lore-based weapons of legend, then I would fully agree. It rather does, when we get Caladbolg, The Shining Blade, and Claw of the Khan-Ur. But it's not lore breaking at all to argue there is 1 true weapon, and a few mockeries.

    Go into the world of art, and you will find that there are forgeries left and right. And some of them are pretty authentic looking. This not only goes to paintings, but can even go towards forged arms and armor. This would be no different a situation.

    If we have these things happening illegally on Earth, why couldn't they happen (be it legally or illegally) on Tyria?

    It would, in fact, be more unrealistic to say it doesn't happen than to say it does!

    you see, for mirror of Lyssa we know it's replica, it's also just a skin

    for the Claw, it's legendary weapon and it's named Clar of the Khan Ur, we're not talking about replicas here

    Shining Blade is different, first of all, this weapon has been created and established within single LW episode that didn't even were supposed to exist, until they delayed PoF release (devs admitted it during one of AMAs). Also, we know how Commader got the blade - we were fighting Lazarus and picked up the Blade, we were betrusted by Shining Blade etc. We know HOW it happened, so the fact we made it as legendary is okay, even though legendary creation is lame in this game. Also, the Blade is hardly as important as the Claw. The Blade was just a tool.

    For Caladbolg, it's not legendary, but at least we completed a quest to recover it and Commander got the weapon and the title officialy within lore.

    For the Claw we have nothing like this. Just go and craft your legendary weapon. I don't complain we are allowed to aquire it. I complain the aquisition method is disrespectful. This is not just another legendary weapon (in terms of mechanics), this is legendary weapon within lore, it deserves some dignity, context and at least something pretending to be a quest to get it.

    This game is MMO RPG. In some cases, they really care about how they present and explain things in game, in other, especially artifacts, they act like they don't care. In every other game I would need to go for a quest and defeat worthy opponent to get such artifact. In GW2 Commander hits his head into crafting station, flushes some stuff in Mystic Forge and boom - one of most important artifacts becomes a skin.

    They could do literally any other, lore light skin. Most legendaries have irrelevant backstory, if any. But the Claw... it feels like they deliberately made it a skin now, with 0 context, because they have no idea and/or desire to go anywhere with Khan Ur legacy lore in the game.

  • Lord Trejgon.2809Lord Trejgon.2809 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Hey, no problem boys. Scepter of Orr as BLC skin will be another nail to GW2's lore grave :)

    Let's go on the assumption they do that. They do have a tendency to give all skins possible to players, after all. Why would it be the actual Scepter of Orr?

    And why is this not an issue to you?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Replica_Mirror_of_Lyssa

    You're complaining about copies of something, rather than the actual something. It's not like there's a thousand Claws of the Khan-Ur going around, or thousands of Caladbolg. In lore, there is one of each - Smodur has the former, the Commander has the latter. All the rest is just replicas or literally non-existent in lore. Because mechanics != lore.

    If your argument is that it devalues the feeling of lore-based weapons of legend, then I would fully agree. It rather does, when we get Caladbolg, The Shining Blade, and Claw of the Khan-Ur. But it's not lore breaking at all to argue there is 1 true weapon, and a few mockeries.

    Go into the world of art, and you will find that there are forgeries left and right. And some of them are pretty authentic looking. This not only goes to paintings, but can even go towards forged arms and armor. This would be no different a situation.

    If we have these things happening illegally on Earth, why couldn't they happen (be it legally or illegally) on Tyria?

    It would, in fact, be more unrealistic to say it doesn't happen than to say it does!

    you see, for mirror of Lyssa we know it's replica, it's also just a skin

    for the Claw, it's legendary weapon and it's named Clar of the Khan Ur, we're not talking about replicas here

    Shining Blade is different, first of all, this weapon has been created and established within single LW episode that didn't even were supposed to exist, until they delayed PoF release (devs admitted it during one of AMAs). Also, we know how Commader got the blade - we were fighting Lazarus and picked up the Blade, we were betrusted by Shining Blade etc.

    except we do not pick it up at the episode but repeat same process of precursor crafting as with any other "legendary" item. also THE shining blade is still powerfull asset of shining blades and considering livia's behaviour throughout the episode I heavily doubt in her just allowing us to randomly "pick up and take" such a powerfull asset.

    and caladbolg is whole different story.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Hey, no problem boys. Scepter of Orr as BLC skin will be another nail to GW2's lore grave :)

    Let's go on the assumption they do that. They do have a tendency to give all skins possible to players, after all. Why would it be the actual Scepter of Orr?

    And why is this not an issue to you?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Replica_Mirror_of_Lyssa

    You're complaining about copies of something, rather than the actual something. It's not like there's a thousand Claws of the Khan-Ur going around, or thousands of Caladbolg. In lore, there is one of each - Smodur has the former, the Commander has the latter. All the rest is just replicas or literally non-existent in lore. Because mechanics != lore.

    If your argument is that it devalues the feeling of lore-based weapons of legend, then I would fully agree. It rather does, when we get Caladbolg, The Shining Blade, and Claw of the Khan-Ur. But it's not lore breaking at all to argue there is 1 true weapon, and a few mockeries.

    Go into the world of art, and you will find that there are forgeries left and right. And some of them are pretty authentic looking. This not only goes to paintings, but can even go towards forged arms and armor. This would be no different a situation.

    If we have these things happening illegally on Earth, why couldn't they happen (be it legally or illegally) on Tyria?

    It would, in fact, be more unrealistic to say it doesn't happen than to say it does!

    you see, for mirror of Lyssa we know it's replica, it's also just a skin

    for the Claw, it's legendary weapon and it's named Clar of the Khan Ur, we're not talking about replicas here

    Shining Blade is different, first of all, this weapon has been created and established within single LW episode that didn't even were supposed to exist, until they delayed PoF release (devs admitted it during one of AMAs). Also, we know how Commader got the blade - we were fighting Lazarus and picked up the Blade, we were betrusted by Shining Blade etc.

    except we do not pick it up at the episode but repeat same process of precursor crafting as with any other "legendary" item. also THE shining blade is still powerfull asset of shining blades and considering livia's behaviour throughout the episode I heavily doubt in her just allowing us to randomly "pick up and take" such a powerfull asset.

    and caladbolg is whole different story.

    Shining Blade as a concept is laready stupid. They say it was made by Seer to kill mursaat. Well. wow. In GW1 we literally anihilated whole race without such tool. And now for single, weakened Lazarus they artificially created the need for new shiny. This whole episode and story around the Blade is stupid, but this episode was never meant to happen. That's why I don't really care about it being low effort.

    Caladbolg is not different story. Why Caladbolg is getting a quest, while the Claw not? I'd argue that Claw is much more important. Saladbolg is just another tool, like Shining Blade. Meanwhile the Claw has symbolic value and is part of charr culture and chain of command.

  • Lord Trejgon.2809Lord Trejgon.2809 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2018

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Hey, no problem boys. Scepter of Orr as BLC skin will be another nail to GW2's lore grave :)

    Let's go on the assumption they do that. They do have a tendency to give all skins possible to players, after all. Why would it be the actual Scepter of Orr?

    And why is this not an issue to you?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Replica_Mirror_of_Lyssa

    You're complaining about copies of something, rather than the actual something. It's not like there's a thousand Claws of the Khan-Ur going around, or thousands of Caladbolg. In lore, there is one of each - Smodur has the former, the Commander has the latter. All the rest is just replicas or literally non-existent in lore. Because mechanics != lore.

    If your argument is that it devalues the feeling of lore-based weapons of legend, then I would fully agree. It rather does, when we get Caladbolg, The Shining Blade, and Claw of the Khan-Ur. But it's not lore breaking at all to argue there is 1 true weapon, and a few mockeries.

    Go into the world of art, and you will find that there are forgeries left and right. And some of them are pretty authentic looking. This not only goes to paintings, but can even go towards forged arms and armor. This would be no different a situation.

    If we have these things happening illegally on Earth, why couldn't they happen (be it legally or illegally) on Tyria?

    It would, in fact, be more unrealistic to say it doesn't happen than to say it does!

    you see, for mirror of Lyssa we know it's replica, it's also just a skin

    for the Claw, it's legendary weapon and it's named Clar of the Khan Ur, we're not talking about replicas here

    Shining Blade is different, first of all, this weapon has been created and established within single LW episode that didn't even were supposed to exist, until they delayed PoF release (devs admitted it during one of AMAs). Also, we know how Commader got the blade - we were fighting Lazarus and picked up the Blade, we were betrusted by Shining Blade etc.

    except we do not pick it up at the episode but repeat same process of precursor crafting as with any other "legendary" item. also THE shining blade is still powerfull asset of shining blades and considering livia's behaviour throughout the episode I heavily doubt in her just allowing us to randomly "pick up and take" such a powerfull asset.

    and caladbolg is whole different story.

    Shining Blade as a concept is laready stupid. They say it was made by Seer to kill mursaat. Well. wow. In GW1 we literally anihilated whole race without such tool. And now for single, weakened Lazarus they artificially created the need for new shiny. This whole episode and story around the Blade is stupid, but this episode was never meant to happen. That's why I don't really care about it being low effort.

    Caladbolg is not different story. Why Caladbolg is getting a quest, while the Claw not? I'd argue that Claw is much more important. Saladbolg is just another tool, like Shining Blade. Meanwhile the Claw has symbolic value and is part of charr culture and chain of command.

    it is not as "stupid" as a concept because what actually anihilated entire race were titans we have unleashed - ya just needed to pay attention when playing original GW1 to know this one. sure average mursaat mob were not difficult enemies once you have have got infused armor but A: since a huge wipeout by titans you'd guess only strongest survived B: mursaats we see already in GW1 Beyond are much stronger than aforementioned "average mursaat mobs" at ring of fire islands. C: you do not have infused armors in the story.

    Caladbolg is a whole different story period. firstly it is not a "legendary" item (too easy to obtain for that tbh) and is basically a somewhat special sword only on the merit of how it was created. and the "quest" for caladbolg is to regrow (because it does not validate for being "reforged") the shattered blde you recover at the end of HoT. Also you could argue that caladbolg has symbolic meaning for sylvari but that's irrelevant here.

    The Shining Blade also is not "merely" a tool. sure probably it was created originally as such but let us not forget that a group of very high importance to the human culture and structure of command is named after that artifact.

    And then again the part you ignore pretty stubbornly here is that THE claw of khan-ur is sitting in the black citadel right next to the owner of it. What players are to wield is embodiment of the claws legend created by ancient djin, from stuff commander have gathered in the very long and tedious process. The same goes for any other legendary weapon with only differences being of some having more obvious in-lore asociated legends [claw, shining blade, flameseeker prophecy, rodgort's flame] and some being based of irl legends with no known to us in-game lore variants [bifrost, that tiger bow forgot the name of] and some have none-known and are just silly things I have no idea whom have thought would be good idea for them to be legendaries in the first place [moot, quip, incinerator]

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    it is not as "stupid" as a concept because what actually anihilated entire race were titans we have unleashed - ya just needed to pay attention when playing original GW1 to know this one.

    During War in Kryta finale we have no problem in killing hundreds of mursaat without Shining Blade (weapon).

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    Caladbolg is a whole different story period. firstly it is not a "legendary" item

    It is legendary artifact in lore, mechanics aside. Caladbolg is also powerful as it allows Trahearne to fight Zhaitan corruption and start the process of reviving whole Orr. It is powerful, it is significant and in all terms it is one of not so many true artifacts in GW universe. Such treatment should have been given to the Claw aswell.

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    And then again the part you ignore pretty stubbornly here is (...)

    The Claw is still very important to the charr and they wouldn't allow anyone to simply mock their whole culture and greatest hero in their history to make toys of the Claw. This artifact may not be powerful but sets rules for charr chain of command. If they were allowed to create replicas that would kill the concept of Khan Ur as at some point some charr would claim the title wielding the replica. Symbolic value of this weapon within lore is to big to simple give it away. Unless we were introduced to the story how Smodur achieves his goal of breaking up with old traditions. But this never happened.

    They could have introduced any concept, any stupid flashy design but they decided to use the Claw. This is disrespectful for their own lore but it's also probably indication they don't care about this arc anymore and we'll never see Khan Ur legacy going anywhere in this game.

  • Lord Trejgon.2809Lord Trejgon.2809 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    it is not as "stupid" as a concept because what actually anihilated entire race were titans we have unleashed - ya just needed to pay attention when playing original GW1 to know this one.

    During War in Kryta finale we have no problem in killing hundreds of mursaat without Shining Blade (weapon).[1]

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    Caladbolg is a whole different story period. firstly it is not a "legendary" item

    It is legendary artifact in lore, mechanics aside. Caladbolg is also powerful as it allows Trahearne to fight Zhaitan corruption and start the process of reviving whole Orr. It is powerful, it is significant and in all terms it is one of not so many true artifacts in GW universe. Such treatment should have been given to the Claw aswell.[2]

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    And then again the part you ignore pretty stubbornly here is (...)

    The Claw is still very important to the charr and they wouldn't allow anyone to simply mock their whole culture and greatest hero in their history to make toys of the Claw. [3] This artifact may not be powerful but sets rules for charr chain of command.[4] If they were allowed to create replicas that would kill the concept of Khan Ur as at some point some charr would claim the title wielding the replica[5] Symbolic value of this weapon within lore is to big to simple give it away. Unless we were introduced to the story how Smodur achieves his goal of breaking up with old traditions. But this never happened.[6]

    They could have introduced any concept, any stupid flashy design but they decided to use the Claw. This is disrespectful for their own lore but it's also probably indication they don't care about this arc anymore and we'll never see Khan Ur legacy going anywhere in this game.[7]

    [1] and here goes paying attention to whats going on during gameplay.

    no, during war in kryta we kill exacly 3 mursaats. and those we kill are considered a boss encounters - and note to share for alot of players pretty challenging ones [at least one requiring to deploy cheesing strategy to even be doable without full 8man party]

    [2] while it is something considered "somewhat" legendary among certain groups caladbolg is too "young" of an artifact to have actuall legend grown around it. please bear in mind that all of ites with actuall lore behind them are referencing things predating GW:P

    [3] but they did it already themselves. centurions claw is there. altho semantics aside no one is making "toy" out of the claw both legendary item from zomorros and centurions claw are meant to be weapons used in combat.

    [4] except charrs had no issues with chain of command for over 200 years without it. and even the previous wielder was not exacly successfull at unifying all charrs under his command and alot of charrs were defying his claim to rule.

    [5] considering resistance flame legion had even while owning original....

    [6] and while sentiment may be towards that specific artifact let us not forgive here that charrs are primarily a very pragmatic race.

    [7] they could have do any flashy random thing, but decided to instead do actuall in-game legend - which is much more respectfull towards what legendary weapons were meant to be in the first place.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    [1] We can argue about WiK whole day. My point is, we never needed or ever heard about the Blade before One Path Ends. And we wouldn't have heard about it even now if not for PoF delay.

    [2] So what is time treshold for an item to become an artifact? We witness within the game how Caladbolg becomes one of artifacts, it offers huge power and is relevant for critical moments in the story.

    [3] Claw of Khan Ur is not unique in terms of weapon type. Centurion's claw shares weapon type with the Claw but in no way it's close in appearance.

    [4] Charr still respect their traditions and it was never established they turned away from Khan Ur tradition. It's not like every week someone tries to become one. But it doesn't mean they don't care if anyone tries to.

    [5] I can see why flame legion, especially during shaman reign, would cause resistance to appear when trying to claim the title of Khan Ur.

    [6] Charr are first and foremost military driven race and culture. They respect chain of command and Khan Ur is their highest title.

    [7] Offering a lore based artifact without giving any explanation how we aquire it or even creating lore inconsistency that we have the Claw while in lore it still hangs in Smodur's office. This is very opposite of beind respectful towards their own universe. This is ignoring lore just to sell a shiny and pretend it's lore heavy. Yeah right, because buying 20k mithril and wood and spending 20 minutes at crafting bench is such a quest.

  • Lord Trejgon.2809Lord Trejgon.2809 Member ✭✭✭

    [1] we did need infused armor to even think of realistically combating them.

    [2] not artifact - legend - caladbolg is oftenly refered as artifact and at no point I have argued against calling it as such - what I said is that it is simply to "young" artifact to have "legend" grown around it.

    [3] sorry but you must be blind to call centurions claw "no way close in appearance" or to busy complaining about lore implications to notice a whole crapload of people compleining about claw of khan-ur being effectively reskinned centurions claw. some even said it's EXACLY same thing.

    [4] and last time someone tried he struggled to get them convinced and actually needed to resort to usage of another powerfull artifact to proove his "worthiness".... - point in case: just owning "the" claw is far from sufficient to convince anyone of them.

    [5] which further supports the point that just owning an item appearing to be a claw of khan-ur is far from sufficient to mess with charrs established chain of command....

    [6] and also supports rank ascention by killing your superior officer.... also just owning the claw does not make you khan-ur....

    [7] and here you again are ignoring every single bit of legendary items established lore.

    and also ignoring factuall process because I'd like you to get gift of mystic tribute by buying mithril and spending 20m at a bench... or gift of mastery or gift of maguuma... not to mention mystic forge being involved...

  • BoundlessCreation.8906BoundlessCreation.8906 Member ✭✭
    edited March 9, 2018

    This whole debacle boils down to Kheldorn's apparently fatal inability to differentiate between gameplay and lore. Concepts that are importantly tied to each other but not so intrinsically.

    There are games that entirely revolve around this break, Overwatch and Smas Bros to name some. At what point in the LoZ timeline does Link, Zelda and Ganon Duke it out with Bayonetta, ROB and Mewtwo? They don't, because it is gameplay, not lore.

    It is the same concept here. The Claw the legendary is not the legendary Claw. Comprende?

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2018

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    you see, for mirror of Lyssa we know it's replica, it's also just a skin

    for the Claw, it's legendary weapon and it's named Clar of the Khan Ur, we're not talking about replicas here

    Except for the original sitting in front of Smodur's desk, you mean...

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Shining Blade is different, first of all, this weapon has been created and established within single LW episode that didn't even were supposed to exist, until they delayed PoF release (devs admitted it during one of AMAs). Also, we know how Commader got the blade - we were fighting Lazarus and picked up the Blade, we were betrusted by Shining Blade etc. We know HOW it happened, so the fact we made it as legendary is okay, even though legendary creation is lame in this game. Also, the Blade is hardly as important as the Claw. The Blade was just a tool.

    The Shining Blade is more than just a tool. It is a symbol for the Shining Blade representing their strife against oppressors and their origins. It is also the root for their Oath of Confidence.

    Furthermore, that's not how the Commander got the sword - there's no reason Livia would leave a tool that is required to ensure new Shining Blade members cannot tell their secrets to enemies went with the Commander. Not to mention that we still had to craft a replica.

    Even if the weapon was new to lore, it was still one with a history within the universe once introduced.

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    For Caladbolg, it's not legendary, but at least we completed a quest to recover it and Commander got the weapon and the title officialy within lore.

    In lore, it is 100% legendary. Even if it's not a legendary weapon by mechanics. So it's no different than the Claw or Shining Blade.

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    For the Claw we have nothing like this. Just go and craft your legendary weapon. I don't complain we are allowed to aquire it. I complain the aquisition method is disrespectful. This is not just another legendary weapon (in terms of mechanics), this is legendary weapon within lore, it deserves some dignity, context and at least something pretending to be a quest to get it.

    I would love for us to get a collection for every legendary weapon that is on par to the Caladbolg and Chuka and Champawat stuff. I remain hopeful that one day ArenaNet will go back and add such, even if it's as kitten as the non-Chuka and Champawat collections.

    However, your complaint fits the Shining Blade perfectly. We acquire it through a non-quest crafting system. It is not just a legendary weapon of mechanics but within lore.

    Hell, your complaint also fits a bunch of other things such as:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adam (Eve's skull from GW1)
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Windstorm (shares Stormcaller's appearance)
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bloodseeker (a shard of a Bloodstone)

    And quite a few others from here. A lot of these are tied to lore, but they're just random drops.

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Most legendaries have irrelevant backstory, if any.

    And that's a problem they were fixing by making the Claw a legendary weapon.

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