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Why not release In-World 5-Man dungeons with Living World Maps?


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I LOVE AND MISS 5-MAN DUNGEONS, INSIDE THE WORLD!

Not Fractals, there is a clear gear wall, where you need agony resistance and people are so picky and elitist to complete it fast.

I want dungeons you can just jump in and play without any demand for gear, and small group of people to have fun, and still be challenging. BUT WITHOUT GEAR DEMANDS.

And Open world PvE DOES NOT cut it. Because so many people are playing all we do is spam 1 and done.

For all the effort you are putting in each living world episode, why not make a short 5 man dungeon for each? With a unique boss battle, you do it in open world.

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challengingno elitismPick one.

Your delusional if you think there weren't tons of people like me excluding bear bow rangers, minion mancer necros, and just generally inexperienced players in blue gear back in the dungeon days. We were, and we would do it again if there were ever new dungeons because we are only interested in playing this game with people who share the same goals, mindsets, and skill levels as ourselves. Of course your always welcome to form your own group, but who are we kidding, only elitists have the power to form pug groups anyways. It is truly a cruel world :(

There is one and only one solution I know of, and even this isn't fail proof. Find a group of like minded individuals (typically you make a guild with them), and exclusively play instanced challenging content with them.

Worked for me, I havn't had to kick a terribad player in ages.

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TBH, there is definitely a difference between Fractals and Dungeons in that Dungeons provide non-combat puzzles and simple fights separately, whereas Fractals try to jam as many mechanics into their boss sequences as they can. The result is two pieces of content - one that can feel laid back and casual if not a little gimmicky, and another that's just visual clutter - the game.

But that’s just my two cents.

Personally, I would rather have Anet focusing on creating 1(+1) man "dungeons" like they have been doing in the Living World releases. ;)

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@"Westenev.5289" said:TBH, there is definitely a difference between Fractals and Dungeons in that Dungeons provide non-combat puzzles and simple fights separately, whereas Fractals try to jam as many mechanics into their boss sequences as they can. The result is two pieces of content - one that can feel laid back and casual if not a little gimmicky, and another that's just visual clutter - the game.

But that’s just my two cents.

Personally, I would rather have Anet focusing on creating 1(+1) man "dungeons" like they have been doing in the Living World releases. ;)

If Anet were to do dungeons again, do you think they wouldn’t do that with them as well?

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@Westenev.5289 said:TBH, there is definitely a difference between Fractals and Dungeons in that Dungeons provide non-combat puzzles and simple fights separately, whereas Fractals try to jam as many mechanics into their boss sequences as they can. The result is two pieces of content - one that can feel laid back and casual if not a little gimmicky, and another that's just visual clutter - the game.

You are absolutely right. Fractals are soooo much more combat based then dungeons. And they always will be. They can’t be made to have less combat based sections in the future, it’s phisically Impossible to design them this way.

Well you know, except Wisp puzzle. And the aetherblade puzzles. Chaos snow puzzle. Nightmare captures. 2 Thamanova rooms. Dolphins. Underground stuff. Climbing stuff on cliff side.

The idea is pure fiction. Fractals are actually less combat oriented then dungeons. And if you are talking about combat secondary stuff, like the coe buttons, there are a dozen more things from fractals I can mention. And comparing fractal t4 difficulty to dungeons is unfair. There is a reason t1 and 2 exist, for people who want a more chill experience.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"Westenev.5289" said:TBH, there is definitely a difference between Fractals and Dungeons in that Dungeons provide non-combat puzzles and simple fights separately, whereas Fractals try to jam as many mechanics into their boss sequences as they can. The result is two pieces of content - one that can feel laid back and casual if not a little gimmicky, and another that's just visual clutter - the game.

But that’s just my two cents.

Personally, I would rather have Anet focusing on creating 1(+1) man "dungeons" like they have been doing in the Living World releases. ;)

If Anet were to do dungeons again, do you think they wouldn’t do that with them as well?

Exactly. TA path 4 springing to mind instantly

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Only if they stopped creating raids to do it. That is to say, Living World Stories come every 2-3 months with a new zone. I enjoy the stories and the zones. I don't enjoy instanced content as much. Even then I enjoy fractals more than dungeons anyway and there is no requirement to do low level fractals anyway. If you don't want a requirement, do the low level ones If you keep doing them you get what you need from the fractals themselves, so I'm not sure what that issue is all about.

But if you added dungeons to living world, it would delay releases, because that's extra time. However, if the raid team were doing dungeons, instead of raids that shouldn't impact time as much. That I'd be okay with.

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@Vayne.8563 said:However, if the raid team were doing dungeons, instead of raids that shouldn't impact time as much. That I'd be okay with.

If they should do this they'll lose a lot of players again due to boredom very fast like they did during the content drought between LS2 and HoT. The raiding crowd is a significant amount of players Anet made content for - it's not only the speed guild fraction. If at all those are probably around 100 players, raiders are a lot more, for example like me. People are underestimating that completely. There is a need for difficult content in this game. As much as I loved dungeon running in the past it's not the content raids can be replaced for. I would rather suggest to hand out LS story on a 6 months cycle and move LS devs from it.

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@"Westenev.5289" said:TBH, there is definitely a difference between Fractals and Dungeons in that Dungeons provide non-combat puzzles and simple fights separately, whereas Fractals try to jam as many mechanics into their boss sequences as they can. The result is two pieces of content - one that can feel laid back and casual if not a little gimmicky, and another that's just visual clutter - the game.

But that’s just my two cents.

Personally, I would rather have Anet focusing on creating 1(+1) man "dungeons" like they have been doing in the Living World releases. ;)

This is an MMO not a single player with 2 man co-op option.

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Additional dungeon releases or good updates to existing ones, even if at a slow pace, would be interesting for sure. Most of the old ones have not been changed at all or at least not too much since the release. That fact alone turns it into an interesting idea, though certainly not a new one.I wonder how content without any gear requirement could be challenging unless they took gear out of the equation completely like in SAB or if the difficulty scaled up depending on your gear. Just don't assume there won't be a new META even without the gear as long as the rewards are remotely worth the trouble.

As far as moving the raid design team to dungeons is concerned... I dearly hope ArenaNet will never make a mistake like that again. Deliberately hurting a very active and quite sizeable community to make them move to new content, similar content but hardly a replacement, was one of the worst moves they ever did.Would almost feel like mockery to me as this is going to affect many of these players all over again. Well, those who actually came back after that last straw during the long content drought back then. Not to mention all of those I know who only really got into instanced PvE or even PvE as a whole after raids were introduced.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:However, if the raid team were doing dungeons, instead of raids that shouldn't impact time as much. That I'd be okay with.

If they should do this they'll lose a lot of players again due to boredom very fast like they did during the content drought between LS2 and HoT. The raiding crowd is a significant amount of players Anet made content for - it's not only the speed guild fraction. If at all those are probably around 100 players, raiders are a lot more, for example like me. People are underestimating that completely. There is a need for difficult content in this game. As much as I loved dungeon running in the past it's not the content raids can be replaced for. I would rather suggest to hand out LS story on a 6 months cycle and move LS devs from it.

Do you have any evidence for your assertions. Because we know from long long history that the average MMO player is casual. And casual content attracts more players that hard core content. This is true for every MMO ever made and I'm pretty sure that includes Guild Wars 2.

I'm 100% sure the amount of people in this game is less than you think it is, and I'm almost that sure that the amount of people who do Living Story and open world content is far far greater than the number of raiders.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:However, if the raid team were doing dungeons, instead of raids that shouldn't impact time as much. That I'd be okay with.

If they should do this they'll lose a lot of players again due to boredom very fast like they did during the content drought between LS2 and HoT. The raiding crowd is a significant amount of players Anet made content for - it's not only the speed guild fraction. If at all those are probably around 100 players, raiders are a lot more, for example like me. People are underestimating that completely. There is a need for difficult content in this game. As much as I loved dungeon running in the past it's not the content raids can be replaced for. I would rather suggest to hand out LS story on a 6 months cycle and move LS devs from it.

Do you have any evidence for your assertions. Because we know from long long history that the average MMO player is casual. And casual content attracts more players that hard core content. This is true for every MMO ever made and I'm pretty sure that includes Guild Wars 2.

I'm 100% sure the amount of people in this game is less than you think it is, and I'm almost that sure that the amount of people who do Living Story and open world content is far far greater than the number of raiders.

thats why they get the most content.i mean come on...2 wings in 12 month? and you don´t even grant "us" that?

i don´t like your attitute dear madam/sir

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@Tzozef.9841 said:I LOVE AND MISS 5-MAN DUNGEONS, INSIDE THE WORLD!

Not Fractals, there is a clear gear wall, where you need agony resistance and people are so picky and elitist to complete it fast.

I want dungeons you can just jump in and play without any demand for gear, and small group of people to have fun, and still be challenging. BUT WITHOUT GEAR DEMANDS.

And Open world PvE DOES NOT cut it. Because so many people are playing all we do is spam 1 and done.

For all the effort you are putting in each living world episode, why not make a short 5 man dungeon for each? With a unique boss battle, you do it in open world.

I agree with you, this game lacks 5 man pve content. As a returning player after three years it was a delusion to realise that no dungeons were added to the game. I still had no chance to join raids and enjoy that content only because of a lack of gear (full exotic with three ascended pieces) or because i do not know mechanics, I have been just kicked out. The problem here is that to move forward into the new pve content you must have a certain gear lvl. The only way in order to achieve this is farming fractals but the problem of fractals is not difficulty but repetition. You can move to t1-t2-t3-t4 for better drops but the content remains the same which makes fractals quite boring after a while and that is why most of the people wants to rush them, I think they just had enough of reading the same texts, fight the same bosses and jump the same platforms over and over. It feels like all content that is being released is just for old players with end game gears and the only thing that returning and new players can do is to catch up. What if a new player that hits lvl 60 wants to play all paths of Ascalonian Catacombs just to do something different? He will find nobody to play with or a group willing to rush it not giving even the possibility to the new player to enjoy the content.

In my opinion releasing new dungeons in which anyone can join is not much of an effort, maybe with better drops that can subsequently lead players to Raids. I played through the entire HoT-PoF story and I could feel a large improvement from the original one. Arenanet demonstrated that is capable of setting up amazing scenarios, difficult and puzzling fights but seeing all of this effort put into a single player content is strange for an mmo (don't get me wrong I really liked the story and I think I'll play it again). I mean, why not using the same scenarios of the single player game and make suitable for a small party? Like Kromir's library for example.

Three years ago I used to play this game with 6 more friends and they all got bored of the fact that the only way to get end gear through pve was fractals, and we all left the game for this reason. If Arenanet's strategy is to keep the existing players by working only on Raids and Open World content is fine. But if they are willing to attract more people they should also work on something that can be good for new, casual, returning and existing players. This will enlarge the GW2 community and make it easier for anybody willing to play this game to get into the final content.

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@Vayne.8563 said:Do you have any evidence for your assertions. Because we know from long long history that the average MMO player is casual. And casual content attracts more players that hard core content. This is true for every MMO ever made and I'm pretty sure that includes Guild Wars 2.

I'm 100% sure the amount of people in this game is less than you think it is, and I'm almost that sure that the amount of people who do Living Story and open world content is far far greater than the number of raiders.

Yes, you are right with the average MMO player being casual. The thing is, dungeons were never mass content for casuals. Casuals are doing open world bosses, dailies, map exploration, events and maybe hunt for some non-legendary skins. Back in the days when I had my daily dungeon run routine I asked a lot of players why they weren't running or have never tried them. Most of them were not interested and the ones who tried found them too hard and too long to invest their time. Even if you ask casuals about Arah today you get the same answers: Too long & too hard although you breeze through in a 5 man casual group with power creep and elite specs.And think about it, if we get new dungeons it's very doubtful that we get brainless easy stuff. Even if we get a difficulty like before HoT casuals won't play that content more than once and definitely not on a regular basis which leads us to the following: wasted resources. On the contrary, raids are active and have a high replay value.

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The most important part for me, is immersing myself in the story of that location through the dungeon.

Take this "Bug in the System" Living Story for example if it had a dungeon.

(Spoiler below)

IT WOULD BE AN OLMAHKHAN DUNGEON! Featuring tribal charr, etc.

I suggest this because I know Anet can 100% do it. Again it's challenging enough that it requires 5 people, gives new skins for example, and there is no gear treadmill to participate, nor a need to go to qtfy.eu or anything like that.

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@"Tzozef.9841" said:The most important part for me, is immersing myself in the story of that location through the dungeon.

Take this "Bug in the System" Living Story for example if it had a dungeon.

(Spoiler below)

IT WOULD BE AN OLMAHKHAN DUNGEON! Featuring tribal charr, etc.

I suggest this because I know Anet can 100% do it. Again it's challenging enough that it requires 5 people, gives new skins for example, and there is no gear treadmill to participate, nor a need to go to qtfy.eu or anything like that.

But you can have that in fractals in the same way you could have that with the Amala fight. It could tell the story, for example, of how the olmakhans created their tribe.Frankly I also think that you are missing the big advantage of fractals in this case: it would be like the best way to advertize in game the newest content released to any player due to the fact that all players will be to able to play any fractal released.

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@sigur.9453 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:However, if the raid team were doing dungeons, instead of raids that shouldn't impact time as much. That I'd be okay with.

If they should do this they'll lose a lot of players again due to boredom very fast like they did during the content drought between LS2 and HoT. The raiding crowd is a significant amount of players Anet made content for - it's not only the speed guild fraction. If at all those are probably around 100 players, raiders are a lot more, for example like me. People are underestimating that completely. There is a need for difficult content in this game. As much as I loved dungeon running in the past it's not the content raids can be replaced for. I would rather suggest to hand out LS story on a 6 months cycle and move LS devs from it.

Do you have any evidence for your assertions. Because we know from long long history that the average MMO player is casual. And casual content attracts more players that hard core content. This is true for every MMO ever made and I'm pretty sure that includes Guild Wars 2.

I'm 100% sure the amount of people in this game is less than you think it is, and I'm almost that sure that the amount of people who do Living Story and open world content is far far greater than the number of raiders.

thats why they get the most content.i mean come on...2 wings in 12 month? and you don´t even grant "us" that?

i don´t like your attitute dear madam/sir

Actually I was saying that IF Anet was going to make dungeons, AND Fractals AND Raids, they'd have to give up something. If they keep going the way they're going, then that's fine too. I'm not the one asking for dungeons. But I don't think more instanced content is the answer.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Do you have any evidence for your assertions. Because we know from long long history that the average MMO player is casual. And casual content attracts more players that hard core content. This is true for every MMO ever made and I'm pretty sure that includes Guild Wars 2.

I'm 100% sure the amount of people in this game is less than you think it is, and I'm almost that sure that the amount of people who do Living Story and open world content is far far greater than the number of raiders.

Yes, you are right with the average MMO player being casual. The thing is, dungeons were never mass content for casuals. Casuals are doing open world bosses, dailies, map exploration, events and maybe hunt for some non-legendary skins. Back in the days when I had my daily dungeon run routine I asked a lot of players why they weren't running or have never tried them. Most of them were not interested and the ones who tried found them too hard and too long to invest their time. Even if you ask casuals about Arah today you get the same answers: Too long & too hard although you breeze through in a 5 man casual group with power creep and elite specs.And think about it, if we get new dungeons it's very doubtful that we get brainless easy stuff. Even if we get a difficulty like before HoT casuals won't play that content more than once and definitely not on a regular basis which leads us to the following: wasted resources. On the contrary, raids are active and have a high replay value.

I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

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@Tzozef.9841 said:I LOVE AND MISS 5-MAN DUNGEONS, INSIDE THE WORLD!

Not Fractals, there is a clear gear wall, where you need agony resistance and people are so picky and elitist to complete it fast.

I want dungeons you can just jump in and play without any demand for gear, and small group of people to have fun, and still be challenging. BUT WITHOUT GEAR DEMANDS.

And Open world PvE DOES NOT cut it. Because so many people are playing all we do is spam 1 and done.

For all the effort you are putting in each living world episode, why not make a short 5 man dungeon for each? With a unique boss battle, you do it in open world.

Arguably, any new dungeon would also have gear requirements since it'd be scaled to level 80. The only reason a lot of them seem so face roll is cuz you're scaled down in there... Any new dungeon would likely be on par with Arah--which you can't just blow through in whatever level 73 greens or whatever you have on. I mean you wouldn't need ascended/agony infusions... But you don't need that for t1 fractals either.

I

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@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

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